57019 réponses à ce sujet

[maselphie]

yukidama wrote...

Unfortunately I can't help but imagine a voice actor in a tiny padded room with a director and bunch of guys with sound equipment watching him moan into a microphone through a little window. It um. Takes you out of it a little.

You need to see more animations kissing, then. =P It's a fairly standard procedure to suck on the back of your hand whilst recording. Though I guess each voice actor has their own methods. I applaud his, if indeed it is him. Of course, if you're constantly thinking about the behind-the-scenes stuff, of course it's going to take you out of it.

edit: VISUAL AID!

Qeilla wrote...

Modifié par maselphie, 15 mars 2011 - 04:48 .

[nenosronhir]

Valentia X wrote...

 

Mmm. His hate for Templars in specific is fairly clear in any rendition of his character (between Awakening and DA2). He couldn't realistically blow up Meredith because that would involve blowing up the Gallows. He couldn't kill Meredith on his own because that wouldn't make the point he needs to inspire the rest of the Circles; much like Sebastian chooses not to fight Hawke in the end because his death there would do no good, Anders' death would be anonymous and just another apostate/maleficar rebelling unsuccessfully against the Templars.

The Templar order seems to govern itself. Ultimately they answer to a Grand Cleric, perhaps, but how often to we hear of them even being consulted? Elthina's name was not directly attached to Meredith's actions, only in the sense that she did nothing to stop her (which is as good as condoning the actions, imo, and seems to be the consensus of the general populace if you've read the Codex entries).

Destroying the Chantry and Elthina is the last option open because all other paths are tied. For having gone on as long as it did, compromise would never have been enough to repair the damage already done - compromise would not have been justice.

I think part of the quibble we'll have (editorial we, not you and I in particular ) is how much the Chantry does oversee the Templars. I'm taking what Alistair tells you when you say that it seems like the templars could run the Chantry into the conversation- I read/heard the implication that the Chantry does have a lot of oversight. Don't they generally need to have permission, for example, for the Rite of Annulment? Greagoir specifically states he has asked for it, and I think there's a letter or a codex or something where Meredith says she's sent word to Val Royeaux for permission.

It may also be a matter of power versus influence, and how the clerics in an area choose to intervene. The fact that everyone looks to Elthina to intervene says, to me, that she has a great deal of power or influence (or both) over what will happen.

Considering the situation where a Right of Annulment is supposed invoked, I don't think any Knight-Commander would sit around twiddling their thumbs while waiting for permission, even if they did ask. As far as I remember, Greagoir invoked the Right, but did not act immediately because he simply didn't have enough Templars left to adequately perform the Annulment, and was waiting on reinforcements from Denerim.

I'm not arguing that the Chantry doesn't ultimately have the final say, but I think Templars and Knight-Commanders take matters into their own hands first and explain what they did later, rather than put the decision in the hands of the Chantry.

@Miri (because I'm too lazy to quote manually! ) I'd argue that he definitely wants to see her dead (who wouldn't by this point!) but he needs her to lead the charge, because if she died too soon, it might be that the Templars would back down from their stance and compromise would come about anyway regardless of his actions with Elthina and the Chantry, and the mages wouldn't have a cause to fight back.

[crotti]

Did anyone kill Anders? o_o I mean, not because you hate him but... I don't know. xD

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

maselphie wrote...
edit: VISUAL AID!

Qeilla wrote...
[snip gif]

Pff. Nothing breaks my immersion more than straight Anders.

[maselphie]

crotti wrote...

Did anyone kill Anders? o_o I mean, not because you hate him but... I don't know. xD

Sat at the dialogue wheel for a while, had to consult my sister ... In the end, I told him to scram. If I killed him then, it would have been as rash as Meredith's decision.

Pseudocognition wrote...

Pff. Nothing breaks my immersion more than straight Anders.

Zoops! 

Modifié par maselphie, 15 mars 2011 - 04:53 .

[mellifera]

leggywillow wrote...

Pseudocognition wrote...

leggywillow wrote...

I love this kiss so much.  It's been ripped apart on some other threads for the panting being all loud and gross[/b], but the amount of desire in that kiss is just so... GAH.  I love it SO MUCH. 

Wait, what?! Are people actually complaining about any aspect of Hawke getting a faceful of desperate man?

I will never understand this forum.

I noticed a few people on the Fenris thread talking about it when I was desperately trying to get my glowy kiss to work right.  XD

I'm sensing future tensions between Fenris and Anders fans like there never was between the Zevran and Alistair fans.  Sure, Zev and Alistair didn't like each other much, but the sheer amount of vitriol and utter hatred between Fenris and Anders is something else.  I am predicting a fangirl war in the future.  It will be fought in passive-aggressive battles across all threads, mark my words.[/b]

I like both romances, but Anders wins for me.  I honestly wish it didn't, since it's so heartbreaking and I feel so guilty for supporting him in the end.  

Haha, you've felt it too? It's bubbling under the surface, isn't it? I sit firmly on Team Both, but Anders is higher because it sates my incredible love of extremely messed up tragic broken romances. The more my heart is broken, the happier I am. In fiction, at least.

That being said, I would kick both Fenris and Anders to the curb for Varric, who is not only a sweetheart but is also, you know, sane.

Modifié par yukidama, 15 mars 2011 - 04:59 .

[David prophitt]

Man If you want to make a good first impression blow up there house

[Raiil]

@Neno you may be right, it's been a long time since I've done that quest.

I do still believe, however, that the Chantry is at the heart of this problem. While the religion doesn't really bother me (or affect any of my decisions, when it comes down to it), the fact that the Circle exists at all is bothersome. Maybe it's because I heavily favour mages in gameplay, but jailing a lot of people because there's a chance they'll go batcrap just says that there's a cancer in the system that needs to be rooted out.

[maselphie]

Jeez. Between Fenny and Anders? They're both awesome in my books. But considering how Anders romanced me away from Fenris and how I'm still pining for him for my Fenris playthrough ... he wins for me. As for cutscenes, Fenris wins a lot of rounds because he's a pretty mobile character with awesome animations, and for the most part, Anders just stands there and sometimes turns into Justice (but has the better kiss scenes). Anders involvement in the main plot, however, is a bigger influence on me.

[nenosronhir]

Valentia X wrote...

@Neno you may be right, it's been a long time since I've done that quest.

I do still believe, however, that the Chantry is at the heart of this problem. While the religion doesn't really bother me (or affect any of my decisions, when it comes down to it), the fact that the Circle exists at all is bothersome. Maybe it's because I heavily favour mages in gameplay, but jailing a lot of people because there's a chance they'll go batcrap just says that there's a cancer in the system that needs to be rooted out.

The irony here is that the implementation of the Circles was decided on by mages after the fall of the Imperium because they wanted to be free to use their magic. Check the codex. XD The Templars, however, came later, I think. And I am TOTALLY behind mages and not arguing that the Circles are a good thing whatsoever, but only because mages do not rule themselves.

I think the concept of a place where mages can go to learn, be open with their abilities, and not have to struggle through being feared by people who would not understand them is necessary; I do not believe that such a place should be a mandatory lifetime of imprisonment spiced with abuse, rape, and fear.

[mellifera]

I support turning the Circles into a series of Hogwarts.

[nenosronhir]

yukidama wrote...

I support turning the Circles into a series of Hogwarts.

EXACTLY. With griffons.

[maselphie]

nenosronhir wrote...
I think the concept of a place where mages can go to learn, be open with their abilities, and not have to struggle through being feared by people who would not understand them is necessary; I do not believe that such a place should be a mandatory lifetime of imprisonment spiced with abuse, rape, and fear.

Personally, I see the point of the Harrowing and Tranquils. Unless you can somehow get rid of the Fade/Veil whatever allows the demons to contact mages, these procedures are for their benefit and everyone around them. A mandatory school until you pass the Harrowing is what I would suggest if you can't go all Final Fantasy and start killing gods, eliminating the demon problem.

[Italian Empress 1985]

I just played the game as I thought Marian Hawke would be, and not so much the decisions 'I' would make. Lame, I know, but I always got more fun out of playing a role than putting myself into the game. I'm eccentric, I make no excuses.

Long story short, with the apostate father, mage family (and how kewl is it that the human mage origin from the first game is from that same family?), and being the protective big sister to Bethany (who I love, seriously, I got a little 'too' attached to her I think), f!Hawke was very pro-mage, anti-templar, though not as anti as some people, who shall remain nameless.

Anders wound up being the only LI that didn't get angry with Hawke's upwardly mobile, pro-mage attitude. I always mess up during my first game (games of this kind anyway) and half the companions or more wind up hating the main character. I thought Merrill would probably be in the running for first love interest, but I think Marian's anti-demon warnings didn't settle well with the displaced Dalish girl next door. Funny how Merrill didn't like that and Anders agreed, I thought he'd agree with 'her', but he's all 'Anders friendship + 15'.

Does anyone remember Anders teasing Justice about wondering what sex was like back in "Awakenings" or was I off my medication again? I definitely thought of that during the romance scenes, which gave me a good laugh. "You're going to find out now, pal."

Anyway, while I liked how he was in Awakenings a bit more, I do think the way he is written in DA:II IS interesting and pretty emotional at times. I also can't lie, that first kiss where he almost eats Hawke's face was pretty spicy as kisses go. I felt like a peeping tom watching that kiss and got all embarrassed. I guess that's what laying awake every night for three years, with a lot of built up sexual tension, will do to a person. Anders I mean, not 'me'

Haven't quite finished the game yet, but I'm getting close, so maybe my opinion will change. Until then, I think his writing was nice, I didn't find it cheesy very often (there were a FEW lines here and there, but that's inevitable I think) and he's a very sweet, albeit off kilter, mage, and pretty bad ass in a fight, I must say.

[Jean]

Italian Empress 1985 wrote...

I just played the game as I thought Marian Hawke would be, and not so much the decisions 'I' would make. Lame, I know, but I always got more fun out of playing a role than putting myself into the game. I'm eccentric, I make no excuses.

Long story short, with the apostate father, mage family (and how kewl is it that the human mage origin from the first game is from that same family?), and being the protective big sister to Bethany (who I love, seriously, I got a little 'too' attached to her I think), f!Hawke was very pro-mage, anti-templar, though not as anti as some people, who shall remain nameless.

Anders wound up being the only LI that didn't get angry with Hawke's upwardly mobile, pro-mage attitude. I always mess up during my first game (games of this kind anyway) and half the companions or more wind up hating the main character. I thought Merrill would probably be in the running for first love interest, but I think Marian's anti-demon warnings didn't settle well with the displaced Dalish girl next door. Funny how Merrill didn't like that and Anders agreed, I thought he'd agree with 'her', but he's all 'Anders friendship + 15'.

Does anyone remember Anders teasing Justice about wondering what sex was like back in "Awakenings" or was I off my medication again? I definitely thought of that during the romance scenes, which gave me a good laugh. "You're going to find out now, pal."

Anyway, while I liked how he was in Awakenings a bit more, I do think the way he is written in DA:II IS interesting and pretty emotional at times. I also can't lie, that first kiss where he almost eats Hawke's face was pretty spicy as kisses go. I felt like a peeping tom watching that kiss and got all embarrassed. I guess that's what laying awake every night for three years, with a lot of built up sexual tension, will do to a person. Anders I mean, not 'me'

Haven't quite finished the game yet, but I'm getting close, so maybe my opinion will change. Until then, I think his writing was nice, I didn't find it cheesy very often (there were a FEW lines here and there, but that's inevitable I think) and he's a very sweet, albeit off kilter, mage, and pretty bad ass in a fight, I must say.

That was Oghren.
I still want to know if Anders was originally created for DAII first.

Modifié par Batteries, 15 mars 2011 - 05:23 .

[Raiil]

nenosronhir wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

@Neno you may be right, it's been a long time since I've done that quest.

I do still believe, however, that the Chantry is at the heart of this problem. While the religion doesn't really bother me (or affect any of my decisions, when it comes down to it), the fact that the Circle exists at all is bothersome. Maybe it's because I heavily favour mages in gameplay, but jailing a lot of people because there's a chance they'll go batcrap just says that there's a cancer in the system that needs to be rooted out.

The irony here is that the implementation of the Circles was decided on by mages after the fall of the Imperium because they wanted to be free to use their magic. Check the codex. XD The Templars, however, came later, I think. And I am TOTALLY behind mages and not arguing that the Circles are a good thing whatsoever, but only because mages do not rule themselves.

I think the concept of a place where mages can go to learn, be open with their abilities, and not have to struggle through being feared by people who would not understand them is necessary; I do not believe that such a place should be a mandatory lifetime of imprisonment spiced with abuse, rape, and fear.

The templars were already there, I believe, because the Divine or whomever wanted to crush them into mage sauce and one of the templars was sort of, um, not so much, and then they went into self-imposed exile. I don't have an issue with having a 'school' for mages, either: I think it makes complete sense, but yeah, the whole not being able to rejoin society if they want to bit is annoying.

It surprised absolutely no one when the mages of Val Royeaux, in protest, snuffed the sacred flames of the cathedral and barricaded themselves inside the choir loft. No one, that is, but Divine Ambrosia II, who was outraged and attempted to order an Exalted March upon her own cathedral. Even her most devout Templars discouraged that idea. For 21 days, the fires remained unlit while negotiations were conducted, legend tells us, by shouting back and forth from the loft.

The mages went cheerily into exile in a remote fortress outside of the capital, where they would be kept under the watchful eye of the Templars and a council of their own elder magi. Outside of normal society, and outside of the Chantry, the mages would form their own closed society, the Circle, separated for the first time in human history.--From Of Fires, Circles, and Templars: A History of Magic in the Chantry, by Sister Petrine, Chantry scholar.[/i]

ETA: okay, I have no idea what just happened with the coding....

Modifié par Valentia X, 15 mars 2011 - 05:23 .

[leggywillow]

yukidama wrote...

I support turning the Circles into a series of Hogwarts.

YES.  It's the perfect solution!  Children will be begging to go to the Circle.

Italian Empress 1985 wrote...
Haven't quite finished the game yet, but I'm getting close, so maybe my opinion will change.
Until then, I think his writing was nice, I didn't find it cheesy very
often (there were a FEW lines here and there, but that's inevitable I
think) and he's a very sweet, albeit off kilter, mage, and pretty bad
ass in a fight, I must say.

::ominous tones:: It might.  Or at least make you sad.  I am still sad almost a week later.  [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/crying.png[/smilie]

[Raiil]

Also to add: Grand Clerics have to authorise Annulments:

In the 83rd year of the Glory Age, one of the mages of the Nevarran Circle was found practicing forbidden magic. The templars executed him swiftly, but this brewed discontent among the Nevarra Circle. The mages made several magical attacks against the templars, vengeance for the executed mage, but the knight-commander was unable to track down which were responsible.

Three months later, the mages summoned a demon and turned it loose against their templar watchers. Demons, however, are not easily controlled. After killing the first wave of templars who tried to contain it, the demon took possession of one of its summoners. The resulting abomination slaughtered Templars and mages both before escaping into the countryside.

The grand cleric sent a legion of templars to hunt the fugitive. They killed the abomination a year later, but by that time it had slain 70 people.

Divine Galatea, responding to the catastrophe in Nevarra and hoping to prevent further incidents, granted all the Grand Clerics of the Chantry the power to purge a Circle entirely if they rule it irredeemable. This Rite of Annulment has been performed 17 times in the last 700 years.

--From Of Fires, Circles, and Templars: A History of Magic in the Chantry, by Sister Petrine, Chantry scholar.

Modifié par Valentia X, 15 mars 2011 - 05:27 .

[nenosronhir]

maselphie wrote...

Personally, I see the point of the Harrowing and Tranquils. Unless you can somehow get rid of the Fade/Veil whatever allows the demons to contact mages, these procedures are for their benefit and everyone around them. A mandatory school until you pass the Harrowing is what I would suggest if you can't go all Final Fantasy and start killing gods, eliminating the demon problem.

The Harrowing is a crock. Mages in Circles are raised in terror of the Harrowing and of being made Tranquil -  they're an emotional mess by the time they come of age for it, is it any wonder many of them get possessed? Imagine being brought up from a young age knowing that when you graduate high school, there's a possibility of you dying?

Look at Hawke, Bethany, Jowan (not the strongest mage ever, and he still avoids becoming an abomination despite knowing bloodmagic), Dalish Keepers like Velanna, Merrill, Marethari, and Zathrian. *FEYNRIEL* even, who is DOGGED by demons would have been made Tranquil in an instant in a Circle (I honestly don't know what happens when you send him to the Circle, I've always sent him to the Dalish, so I'm assuming here), but he proves that he's strong and capable of overcoming even though his abilities make him the most susceptible.

No, the Harrowing is just-- there are better ways.

@Valentia Ah, yeah, I read that. Like I said though, I'm not disputing that they have the authority - only that the Knight-Commanders, given that (some) Circles are more isolated, might not wait on the permission if they thought the Right was needed right then? I can't really see the Templars not fighting back, anyway, haha.

And thank-you for the transcriptions, I was way too lazy to do so myself ;^; I must have been mixing up the entry about the Right of Annulment coming later with the presence of Templars, there. Makes sense that they were present all along, I suppose, after what Tevinter was (and is now.. *sigh*).

Modifié par nenosronhir, 15 mars 2011 - 05:39 .

[maselphie]

Oh, sorry. I'm not up to snuff on my mage lore. I only played a mage briefly in DA:O, and all I remember is bits and pieces of the origin story. I guess the Harrowing isn't such a good idea, if the consequence for failing is basically death. Still, I think everyone should be exposed to a demon, or something similar, so that they're prepared. Like, how you gotta teach a kid the stove is hot or something.

Of course, being a mage is no wonder years trip through high school, either. As harsh as a living death is, so is the consequence for being weak-willed. Except it's not just you, it's potentially lots of people. There are some responsibilities with being born with that kind of power.

Hawke and Bethany were raised by a Circle-raised father, weren't they? There should be schooling of some sort, and definitely something about uh oh DEFENSE AGAINST THE DARK ARTS. We've come full circle back to Hogwarts.

[nenosronhir]

maselphie wrote...

Oh, sorry. I'm not up to snuff on my mage lore. I only played a mage briefly in DA:O, and all I remember is bits and pieces of the origin story. I guess the Harrowing isn't such a good idea, if the consequence for failing is basically death. Still, I think everyone should be exposed to a demon, or something similar, so that they're prepared. Like, how you gotta teach a kid the stove is hot or something.

Of course, being a mage is no wonder years trip through high school, either. As harsh as a living death is, so is the consequence for being weak-willed. Except it's not just you, it's potentially lots of people. There are some responsibilities with being born with that kind of power.

Hawke and Bethany were raised by a Circle-raised father, weren't they? There should be schooling of some sort, and definitely something about uh oh DEFENSE AGAINST THE DARK ARTS. We've come full circle back to Hogwarts.

The issue with failing is that a mage who fails the Harrowing becomes an abomination, hence death. XD; I will agree that they should be taught what they could face, but with help - rather than thrusting the mage in unawares and unprepared, the First Enchanter or a Senior Enchanter - someone with experience should be present in the Fade so they *can't* be made an abomination.

I think that there would be a lot less mages looking to become more powerful/prone to accepting deals with demons if they we're so powerless at controlling their own fates, and were happier with their lives. I consider the state of the Kirkwall mages and there being so many bloodmages/abominations an anomaly(well, abominations, anyway, I still believe bloodmagic is a tool, not inherently evil-- and even then, you have to consider mages like Wynne and Anders, what category do they fall under?), because they are constantly living in fear, looking for a way out.

[maselphie]

nenosronhir wrote...

I think that there would be a lot less mages looking to become more powerful/prone to accepting deals with demons if they we're so powerless at controlling their own fates, and were happier with their lives.

True, Kirkwall's frequency was super-high. But if you look at the companion's reactions to demons in the Fade, the demons were tempting them out of their non-oppressed lives, too. Aveline turned on me, for crying out loud! While I agree that it would help, it would not solve. Still, power makes people mad crazy. But everyone deserves the chance to prove themselves not crazy.

The real antagonist here is the demons/spirits. Without them, things would have never gotten this dire. Maybe things would still be the same, like what Ferelden's circle hints at (before the whole ordeal). You know, just a general fear or distrust of magic, rather than the NEED to oppress them because of the bad they could do. Or maybe not, and everyone would have lived in harmony, hah.

[Italian Empress 1985]

Batteries wrote...
That was Oghren.
I still want to know if Anders was originally created for DAII first.

Was it? I could've sworn that was Anders being a perv, which he kinda was in "Awakenings", though not on a Zevran level or anything But then again, it's been awhile since I played Awakenings too, so you're probably right. It still makes me laugh, regardless.

He might've been, but honestly, I think they just wanted to build on what they had and the writers just took it in a more serious direction. Though I do think the writing for the sequel is much tighter than it was for the expansion to the original. So, it could be a bit of both? I miss his sarcastic witty one liners though. *wibble* and Pounce, of course I miss the kitty cat.

leggywillow wrote...
::ominous tones:: It might. Or at least make you sad. I am still sad almost a week later.

Oh lord. Alright, I'm ready. I don't think it'd be in character for the Hawke in THIS play through to change her mind, she was mostly a mage extremist from the get go, but hey, anything could happen.

In 'Origins', when you come across Tamlen again for a Dalish play through, I had to stop playing the game for awhile and go curl up in a ball and cry. DAII hasn't quite got to me like that, but it's actually pretty depressing in a lot of places. Hell, the city of Kirkwall is depressing all on its own.

I feel like the Marian Hawke of my current game, and Anders, feed off each other's darker tendencies and just make it worse, which is both creepy, and awesome. I was almost wanting to have Hawke encourage him to kill that mage that was almost made Tranquil, in that scene beneath the Gallows, but that was a little 'too' evil for me (I actually don't know if you could do that or not anyway) and maybe not in character for Hawke, but I 'did' think about it. I'm a horrible human being, though in my defense, I probably would've felt pretty awful about it later, even if it IS just a game. I know about what happens when it all goes mushroom shaped (spoiler-free?  NEVAH!) , I'm probably an hour or so away from that in game play, but I'll have to form my last opinion afterwards . . . for posterity if nothing else.

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

Remember the simple days when the worst we knew of Anders was the implied involuntary cannibalism?

That seems so benign, now.

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 15 mars 2011 - 06:23 .

[Camilladilla]

Here's a thought: Can Anders actually die? He talks like he can in the game, but I was just rereading his short story and the sucker got run through by a sword in the chest and it doesn't even faze him!

It kinda gives me hope that Anders might be able to return for future DLCs/expacs/sequels. What's a dinky little murder knife compared to a templar's longsword?