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[Rinji the Bearded]

Just watched that Anders model swap for the Fenris scene. Mmmm neck kissing nom.

Laughed at the Izzy one. "ANDERS HEAVY FROM TOO MANY SANDWICHES sdfsadjfad."

[Herr Uhl]

SurelyForth wrote...

So Anders really is just a murderer. And one with a perfect scapegoat.

****. Well, that was fun while it lasted.

I thought you've known this for over a week. And complained about it for that long.

[Ninche]

Kawamura wrote...

Batteries wrote...

Ninche wrote...

I think if there should be any kiss at the Gallows it should be after you have spared Anders AND protected him from Sebastian - when you have basically put your love for him above everything else, the ending with Anders killing mages should NOT get any kiss - it makes no sense whatsoever! Someone should write to Hepler and demand she swaps the kisses dammit!

I can actually understand the deal with the lack of kissing, or heck, any kind of psychical contact with Hawke at the end. I doubt Anders would want to breach any personal space boundries with Hawke at that point who sided with the mages and decided to run away with him. Complications abound.
With the Templar siding, the kiss looked hesitant... but also final. More so with his "I'll always love you" line.
It's how I interpret it.


But I agree with above a kiss being there at all is more than a little strange to me.

Yeeeeah. Touching is never good when you've forced a revolution on someone. Or, even if they're with you 100%, have just murdered folks for The Cause.

In fact, I'd consider that bad touching.

Hell. Anything after "Justice" is probably bad touching.

Well he pulled the whole "I told you I will break your heart" speech and zipped his coat up so I'm guessing there was probably no touching afterwards at all.

[sonoko]

sabreene wrote...

Watching the templar-siding cutscene made me feel a little ill. It feels all wrong to me, everything from his words to his facial expressions.

If there had to be a rivalmance ending where you could convince him he was wrong to set the bomb, I would actually prefer it if he just killed himself right there instead of killing his fellow mages. Like Ketojan. And if there had to be a kiss, it would make more sense to me in that scenario. Kiss, Goodbye, Suicide.

But this? Being able to make him kill the ones he's been fighting to save for so many years? That's not justice or vengeance and actually compounds the killing of innocents instead of doing anything to make up for it.

I really don't like even knowing it exists.

THIS. I couldn't say it better. 

I'll pretent I've never seen this cutscene. It is ruining Anders for me.  Suiside would be more appropriate.

[Kawamura]

Ninche wrote...

Kawamura wrote...

Batteries wrote...

Ninche wrote...

I think if there should be any kiss at the Gallows it should be after you have spared Anders AND protected him from Sebastian - when you have basically put your love for him above everything else, the ending with Anders killing mages should NOT get any kiss - it makes no sense whatsoever! Someone should write to Hepler and demand she swaps the kisses dammit!

I can actually understand the deal with the lack of kissing, or heck, any kind of psychical contact with Hawke at the end. I doubt Anders would want to breach any personal space boundries with Hawke at that point who sided with the mages and decided to run away with him. Complications abound.
With the Templar siding, the kiss looked hesitant... but also final. More so with his "I'll always love you" line.
It's how I interpret it.


But I agree with above a kiss being there at all is more than a little strange to me.

Yeeeeah. Touching is never good when you've forced a revolution on someone. Or, even if they're with you 100%, have just murdered folks for The Cause.

In fact, I'd consider that bad touching.

Hell. Anything after "Justice" is probably bad touching.

Well he pulled the whole "I told you I will break your heart" speech and zipped his coat up so I'm guessing there was probably no touching afterwards at all.

Ha!

Yeah, huh? Zipping up the coat = no more fun times. Serious business indeed when your man pulls out his blacker feathery coat and doesn't show off his little scarf bib.

[blauwvis]

I sorta like the conversation - about not wanting to lose himself, about how Hawke has always tried to save him from himself, and how maybe when he dies it'll be Justice rather than Vengeance who's left - all things that my friendmancing Hawke would want to talk about, but the situation makes absolutely no sense.  How is what he's doing in any way just?  (Of course, I have a hell of a time figuring out how to justify siding with the Templars in the first place; I have a run planned where I do so, but it'll probably be a case of closing my eyes and picking the option.)

I would also like to know what his reaction is in the scene where you decide not to kill him and have him join you, if you've sided with the Templars.  How the heck does that conversation go?  "Will I come with you to kill mages?  Damn right I will!"

I don't really care that the option exists.  Some people obviously want it, and it doesn't really matter to me as I'll never be doing it on any playthrough.  It's just so weird and OOC.  Would love to hear Ms. Hepler's thoughts on the matter, but until then, count me in amongst those who would have preferred to see him just kill himself if he'd come to feel that badly about it.

Modifié par blauwvis, 30 mars 2011 - 12:50 .

[Threeparts]

I haven't done the Rivalry path myself, but there is some reasoning behind it, from what I understand:

The justification is that he wasn't the one that blew up the Chantry on that path - it was Justice taking him over and preventing him from undoing it afterwards. He feels guilt for harming people, not pride (relief? Satisfaction? Pride isn't quite the word I want) in accomplishing his goal. Hawke has basically convinced him by that point that there can't be freedom for mages when Kirkwall is essentially a breeding ground for blood mages and abominations, so it's up to Anders to make amends for what Justice has done by protecting Kirkwall from the maleficarum he's just set loose. He's worried he's still doing the wrong thing, and looking at Hawke for support.

If I've messed something up, anyone who's actually completed the Rivalry path should feel free to correct me.


ETA: Also, I get the impression from his speech that he does still want to die, to ensure that Vengeance doesn't pull that **** again. Whether it's by his own hand or that of an official executioner remains, at that point, unknown to him.

Modifié par Threeparts, 30 mars 2011 - 12:56 .

[shiba5]

Threeparts wrote...

I haven't done the Rivalry path myself, but there is some reasoning behind it, from what I understand:

The justification is that he wasn't the one that blew up the Chantry on that path - it was Justice taking him over and preventing him from undoing it afterwards. He feels guilt for harming people, not pride (relief? Satisfaction? Pride isn't quite the word I want) in accomplishing his goal. Hawke has basically convinced him by that point that there can't be freedom for mages when Kirkwall is essentially a breeding ground for blood mages and abominations, so it's up to Anders to make amends for what Justice has done by protecting Kirkwall from the maleficarum he's just set loose. He's worried he's still doing the wrong thing, and looking at Hawke for support.

If I've messed something up, anyone who's actually completed the Rivalry path should feel free to correct me.

He just comes across a lot too calm about it.

[SurelyForth]

Herr Uhl wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

So Anders really is just a murderer. And one with a perfect scapegoat.

****. Well, that was fun while it lasted.

I thought you've known this for over a week. And complained about it for that long.

I have. But I was hoping against hope that they'd cut it because of the implications and the OOCness. Now that it's been doubly validated...

And I'll stop raging against it soon. Maybe.

[_- Songlian -]

Batteries wrote...

I'm curious, when does Anders say what he does in your sig?

During one of the conversations with Meredith in Act III. 

Meredith's reply to it was: "We hunt wolves, too." I thought that was equally badass. 

Modifié par - Songlian -, 30 mars 2011 - 01:11 .

[_- Songlian -]

Ninche wrote...

- Songlian - wrote...

Ninche wrote...

Adding a broken Anders who can't tell what he's doing or who he's fighting for anymore just breaks my heart. 

Ah, we have a very different view on it, then. I wouldn't see it as breaking him, but convinving him that perhaps he's been acting rashly. Which he did, if you think about it objectively. 

Convincing him he has been acting rashly, or even wrongly is one thing, making him kill the innocents who were not responsible for his or Meredith's actions doesn't make any sense. Two wrongs don't make a right. 

Innocents? Maybe we've been playing a different game. I hardly see any side as being completely innocent. 

At least not judging from all those abominations I have to kill at the end of Act III when siding with the mages. 

Modifié par - Songlian -, 30 mars 2011 - 01:12 .

[sonoko]

I still hope they won't include this ending. It isn't mentioned in the official guide unlike all others that are already present in the game so I think it is cut out permanently.

Or they should heavily modify the kiss cutscene to be more emotional and change voice acting. Otherwise it is way too strange and OOC.

[sassperella]

SurelyForth wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

So Anders really is just a murderer. And one with a perfect scapegoat.

****. Well, that was fun while it lasted.

I thought you've known this for over a week. And complained about it for that long.

I have. But I was hoping against hope that they'd cut it because of the implications and the OOCness. Now that it's been doubly validated...

And I'll stop raging against it soon. Maybe.

yes I hate the idea of him siding with the templars, that seems wrong. What I am hoping is that if the bug is fixed we get a proper rivalmance ending if you side with the mages. I think Anders is meant to blame Justice at the bombing when you ask him in the rivalmance - maybe that's where it breaks and I would like more aknowledgement of rivlary at the gallows mage side rather than the friendmance dialog which clearly doesn't fit the rivalry romance.

[SurelyForth]

Threeparts wrote...

I haven't done the Rivalry path myself, but there is some reasoning behind it, from what I understand:

The justification is that he wasn't the one that blew up the Chantry on that path - it was Justice taking him over and preventing him from undoing it afterwards. He feels guilt for harming people, not pride (relief? Satisfaction? Pride isn't quite the word I want) in accomplishing his goal. Hawke has basically convinced him by that point that there can't be freedom for mages when Kirkwall is essentially a breeding ground for blood mages and abominations, so it's up to Anders to make amends for what Justice has done by protecting Kirkwall from the maleficarum he's just set loose. He's worried he's still doing the wrong thing, and looking at Hawke for support.

If I've messed something up, anyone who's actually completed the Rivalry path should feel free to correct me.


ETA: Also, I get the impression from his speech that he does still want to die, to ensure that Vengeance doesn't pull that **** again. Whether it's by his own hand or that of an official executioner remains, at that point, unknown to him.

That might be what Hawke says, but he's not actually doing that. He's participating in killing the until-the-annulment-is-called-non-maleficarum that can't be set loose because they're imprisoned. It's like...there being a prison break in a maximum security prison and, instead of going after the murderers and sexual predators, you head over to the local jail to take out the drunks and vandals.

And then getting annoyed when the drunks and vandals actually have the audacity to fight back rather than lay down their lives and accept a punishment for a crime they did not commit.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 30 mars 2011 - 01:31 .

[silver-crescent]

Wow that pro templar romance ending scene was really odd. And it seriously bothers me that wether you friendromance and rivalmance the pro mage romance ending is always the same :/

[blauwvis]

I've heard that at some point in the "siding with Templars" ending you can refuse to kill the mages who surrender, or don't fight back or something; the whole thing would be a lot easier to stomach if you could specify that from the beginning. Admittedly, I haven't tried agreeing with Meredith yet, so perhaps you can say something like that before getting started with the killing, but at the point where you say "I'm siding with the Templars" it appears that what you're signing up for is an expedition to slaughter every robe-wearing man, woman and child in the Gallows.

[Rinji the Bearded]

I'm a pretty opinionated person, I'll admit, but I can't. Side. With. Meredith. Ever. asljkfasdfdasf.

[SurelyForth]

blauwvis wrote...

I've heard that at some point in the "siding with Templars" ending you can refuse to kill the mages who surrender, or don't fight back or something; the whole thing would be a lot easier to stomach if you could specify that from the beginning. Admittedly, I haven't tried agreeing with Meredith yet, so perhaps you can say something like that before getting started with the killing, but at the point where you say "I'm siding with the Templars" it appears that what you're signing up for is an expedition to slaughter every robe-wearing man, woman and child in the Gallows.

You definitely are, as that's what the Right is. It's why Orsino freaks out so much. They're ALL being sentenced to death for what Anders did.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 30 mars 2011 - 01:22 .

[Jean]

blauwvis wrote...

I've heard that at some point in the "siding with Templars" ending you can refuse to kill the mages who surrender, or don't fight back or something; the whole thing would be a lot easier to stomach if you could specify that from the beginning. Admittedly, I haven't tried agreeing with Meredith yet, so perhaps you can say something like that before getting started with the killing, but at the point where you say "I'm siding with the Templars" it appears that what you're signing up for is an expedition to slaughter every robe-wearing man, woman and child in the Gallows.

Yep. A small group surrenders. Meredith wants to mow them down too, but Cullen does not. I chose to accept their surrender and Cullen pretty much disobeys Meredith in favor of that.

Meredith's rage face when that happened. So epic.

Unfortunately not all the templars are Cullen. I wasn't going to let all the mages die for what Anders did and even if you don't see many of them during this game, there are good mages who never retort to blood magic. Or just go plain psycho.

Modifié par Batteries, 30 mars 2011 - 01:22 .

[Ninche]

- Songlian - wrote...

Ninche wrote...

- Songlian - wrote...

Ninche wrote...

Adding a broken Anders who can't tell what he's doing or who he's fighting for anymore just breaks my heart. 

Ah, we have a very different view on it, then. I wouldn't see it as breaking him, but convinving him that perhaps he's been acting rashly. Which he did, if you think about it objectively. 

Convincing him he has been acting rashly, or even wrongly is one thing, making him kill the innocents who were not responsible for his or Meredith's actions doesn't make any sense. Two wrongs don't make a right. 

Innocents? Maybe we've been playing a different game. I hardly see any side as being completely innocent. 

At least not judging from all those abominations I have to kill at the end of Act III when siding with the mages. 

I mentioned this about 70 pages ago, but if the mages were all innocent and helpless people who needed to be protected there'd be no trouble with the choice at the end of the game at all - everyone would just choose to defend them because it would be the OBVIOUS thing to do. I think seeing all the abominations and blood mages and your mother's murder is meant to mess your principles up and make you FORGET that not ALL mages are evil and not ALL of them would turn to blood magic or demons. If you are fighting for human rights of any kind then you need to fight all the way - if even 1% of the mages are good people worth defending you should defend them. Also let's not forget that Meredith had already called for the Annulment and when faced with certain death I would probably try to get away by any means possible. Wouldn't you?

You are definitely right that there isn't a comletely innocent side and there definitely isn't right and wrong - it's all up to your personal understanding of the story.

Having said that, Meredith kills and turns mages tranquil - gets worse and worse as the years pass - this leads to more mages turning to desperate measures and that leads to meredith having more and more proof that mages are monsters that need to be exterminated- she pushes even harder - more mages run away or turn to demons - meredith decides to kill ALL the mages - 90% of mages turn into abominations etc. to survive - Hawke jumps in to help Meredith and kill them all. This makes no sense to me and is not what I would go for, personally. I believe the few decent innocent mages are worth fighting for. Especially because my hawke is a mage herself.

[Jean]

What Varric says summed it up for me

The Knight Commander started squeezing the Circle. The mages resisted, the tighter she squeezed. It just continues that pattern until it finally explodes.
The circles rising up and finally starting a war would of happened eventually. Anders just decided sooner was better than later, for better or for worse.

Though I never hated Templars as a whole. I feel like some sort of order with their abilities needs to exist to hunt genuine crazy mages like Quentin. I do respect their prowess, I was in awe during the battle scene near the end.
There are crazy mages and sane mages, there are crazy templars and sane templars.

Modifié par Batteries, 30 mars 2011 - 01:53 .

[LupusYondergirl]

Ugh, the idea of that scene... I'm with you 100%, Surely. It doesn't sit right. It comes across like you've finally managed, after a six year contentious, emotionally abusive relationship, to shatter what's left of his mind.
I really feel like it's a direct reaction to how many people raged over Alistair leaving in Origins. Some people want strong characters with their own motivations, but only as long as the PC can get them to go along with what they want.

And holy fast moving thread, batman! Thanks to everyone for the kind words for my new fic. That were said like 9 pages back. . I'm glad in not the only one who likes the idea of dad!Hawke as captain mal.
Which is kinda disturbing for me since I've had more than one person compare Anders in Apostates of Amaranthine to him... I make all my men wisecracking scoundrels, evidently.

[Threeparts]

My main problem with the conflict at the end is that, even with all the effort the writers have gone to in order to show mages in a bad light with abominations and demons running around, they've also sabotaged it at the same time. The Enigma of Kirkwall stuff most notably, showing that Kirkwall is an already-corrupted area, but also in that, ultimately, mages have no choice.

A Templar, if disagreeing with the Knight-Commander, can leave the order. He will suffer lyrium withdrawals, yes, and that can get pretty bad. But once they take of the shiny armour and put down the shield, they can be just like any other person on the street. Very few people are going to whisper fearfully behind their hands that, Maker, that man used to be a Templar.

A mage never has that choice. Whether they choose to become a blood mage or not is almost irrelevant, because - regardless of their intentions - they will always bear the stigma of being a mage. They will always be feared and reviled in that part of the world because of a single trait that they were born with. Is a blood mage feared more than a regular mage? Certainly. Would a regular citizen of Kirkwall care to make note of the differences if they learned that an apostate had moved in next door? Almost certainly not.

I'm sympathetic to the Templars - it can't be an easy life under the Chantry's thumb, addicted to a poisonous substance, and dealing with prisoners who could kill you with a wave of their hand if you upset them. But I simply can't condemn the mages for just being what they are, being who they are born as, for good or ill.

[Eydris Ivo]

As curious as I was in seeing that scene in the game, I was hoping it was actually cut (I believe, however, that Rivalry path folks should get different dialogue at the mage ending). Both my husband and I were talking last night about out of all your party members, Anders should be the one that would be impossible to sway from his beliefs, considering how long—not to mention with a spirit's influence—he's been fighting and planning.

I was always under the impression Anders would die first, rather than kill those who he has vowed to fight for with his life. Would Hawke really have that much influence on him, love or no?

Unless of course, the Rivalry path leads him to a point where he breaks and gives up...

I don't know...

Modifié par Rheia1234, 30 mars 2011 - 01:57 .

[nodice]

Threeparts wrote...

--  Kirkwall is an already-corrupted area, but also in that, ultimately, mages have no choice.

I have wondered this. Why, why don't the mages have a choice, exactly? Why blood magic?  Why even Orsino does it, isn't he supposed to be First Enchanter, one of the good ones, the strong ones. Remember Irwing from Origins? He resisted Uldred to the end. Mages have no excuse for using blood magic. It's the coward's choice, the "I suck at regular magic" choice.

"For every mage like you, there's a dozen who can't control their powers, and those are the ones I fear." -Fenris

Modifié par nodice, 30 mars 2011 - 01:56 .