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[Magaloo]

Threeparts wrote...

My main problem with the conflict at the end is that, even with all the effort the writers have gone to in order to show mages in a bad light with abominations and demons running around, they've also sabotaged it at the same time. The Enigma of Kirkwall stuff most notably, showing that Kirkwall is an already-corrupted area, but also in that, ultimately, mages have no choice.

A Templar, if disagreeing with the Knight-Commander, can leave the order. He will suffer lyrium withdrawals, yes, and that can get pretty bad. But once they take of the shiny armour and put down the shield, they can be just like any other person on the street. Very few people are going to whisper fearfully behind their hands that, Maker, that man used to be a Templar.

A mage never has that choice. Whether they choose to become a blood mage or not is almost irrelevant, because - regardless of their intentions - they will always bear the stigma of being a mage. They will always be feared and reviled in that part of the world because of a single trait that they were born with. Is a blood mage feared more than a regular mage? Certainly. Would a regular citizen of Kirkwall care to make note of the differences if they learned that an apostate had moved in next door? Almost certainly not.

I'm sympathetic to the Templars - it can't be an easy life under the Chantry's thumb, addicted to a poisonous substance, and dealing with prisoners who could kill you with a wave of their hand if you upset them. But I simply can't condemn the mages for just being what they are, being who they are born as, for good or ill.

Its where the remarks of Orsino about drowning mage as children is even more poignant or a lot of the arguments of Anders such as the pain of being taken in shackles away from your ratspit village.

There is just no good sides... just slightly less grey area. I am surprised for the lack of empathy in other threads for the mages though.  Not just Anders and not just in a roleplaying sense but the adoption of a strict templar view by some.

[Taura-Tierno]

Am I the only one suffering from some plot holes with Anders?

When he wants to get into the chantry, he says "Again and again you've shown your support for mages", even though I've always sided with the templars in the various arguments.

[Ninche]

Threeparts wrote...

My main problem with the conflict at the end is that, even with all the effort the writers have gone to in order to show mages in a bad light with abominations and demons running around, they've also sabotaged it at the same time. The Enigma of Kirkwall stuff most notably, showing that Kirkwall is an already-corrupted area, but also in that, ultimately, mages have no choice.

A Templar, if disagreeing with the Knight-Commander, can leave the order. He will suffer lyrium withdrawals, yes, and that can get pretty bad. But once they take of the shiny armour and put down the shield, they can be just like any other person on the street. Very few people are going to whisper fearfully behind their hands that, Maker, that man used to be a Templar.

A mage never has that choice. Whether they choose to become a blood mage or not is almost irrelevant, because - regardless of their intentions - they will always bear the stigma of being a mage. They will always be feared and reviled in that part of the world because of a single trait that they were born with. Is a blood mage feared more than a regular mage? Certainly. Would a regular citizen of Kirkwall care to make note of the differences if they learned that an apostate had moved in next door? Almost certainly not.

I'm sympathetic to the Templars - it can't be an easy life under the Chantry's thumb, addicted to a poisonous substance, and dealing with prisoners who could kill you with a wave of their hand if you upset them. But I simply can't condemn the mages for just being what they are, being who they are born as, for good or ill.

This. Thank you! I really don't understand why this isn't obvious to everyone. Probably the worst thing in this whole system is that the Chantry has basically branded mages as soulless corrupted monsters who are hated by the maker for being born the way they are - and they get brainwashed into believeing it. Believeing you were born a monster and your god is full of shame and hatred for you - and therefore everyone else - is horrible. Also I love how people tend to ignore the politics behind the Chantry - the REAL reason why mages are so oppressed and controlled is because the Divine Chantry fears the Tevinter Imperium. At the same time mages are way too useful to be completely elliminated so the Chantry keeps them on short (metaphorical) leashes and uses them to fight off the Qunari or w/e they want. And on top of that they control their special army by brainwashing and addiction to drugs. I'm sorry but even I can't avoid the real-life references that come to mind. The Chantry is not an organisation full of lovely peaceful epople preeching love and equality for all men.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Kirkwall was basically built on Hellmouth, so the despairing mages who are being mistreated by Meredith's iron grip upon them are even more open to demon suggestion, or so I think. Remember that many blood mages become blood mages becauase they first make a deal with a demon. The Ferelden Circle also benefited from having a strong First Enchanter... And I don't know if Orsino outright discouraged blood magic to begin with. Irving had a very staunch stance against it, meanwhile.

[Kawamura]

Magaloo wrote...

Its where the remarks of Orsino about drowning mage as children is even more poignant or a lot of the arguments of Anders such as the pain of being taken in shackles away from your ratspit village.

There is just no good sides... just slightly less grey area. I am surprised for the lack of empathy in other threads for the mages though.  Not just Anders and not just in a roleplaying sense but the adoption of a strict templar view by some.

Yeeeeah.

The lack of empathy has been frustrating. I mean, support the Templars, the choice isn't exactly easy (it's about what you think will cause less damage in the long run as well, I imagine), but that lack of empathy has been frustrating. I feel very annoyed when people approach it in what I consider a juvenile fashion. But, then, I'm biased; I consider any choice that's made with absolute certainty to be poorly thought out.

Unless, you know, it's like punching the dude who's punching your mom. Then I get certainty.

[Sialater]

Threeparts wrote...

I haven't done the Rivalry path myself, but there is some reasoning behind it, from what I understand:

The justification is that he wasn't the one that blew up the Chantry on that path - it was Justice taking him over and preventing him from undoing it afterwards. He feels guilt for harming people, not pride (relief? Satisfaction? Pride isn't quite the word I want) in accomplishing his goal. Hawke has basically convinced him by that point that there can't be freedom for mages when Kirkwall is essentially a breeding ground for blood mages and abominations, so it's up to Anders to make amends for what Justice has done by protecting Kirkwall from the maleficarum he's just set loose. He's worried he's still doing the wrong thing, and looking at Hawke for support.

If I've messed something up, anyone who's actually completed the Rivalry path should feel free to correct me.


ETA: Also, I get the impression from his speech that he does still want to die, to ensure that Vengeance doesn't pull that **** again. Whether it's by his own hand or that of an official executioner remains, at that point, unknown to him.

This is how I look at it, anyway.  If it's a bug, though, I'll never get the patch, since there's not really a decent way to patch a console.  So, this path will never exist for me when I Rival him.

[Jean]

I don't think the possibility of another Tevinter to rise is impossible. I doubt it, but it is one of the things that did get me thinking throughout the game with Fenris and all the references and magisters you have to fight. And just how very easy blood magic is there for mages.
Figure in the end, I'd at least give the mages a chance to fight.

[Camilladilla]

Magaloo wrote...

Its where the remarks of Orsino about drowning mage as children is even more poignant or a lot of the arguments of Anders such as the pain of being taken in shackles away from your ratspit village.

There is just no good sides... just slightly less grey area. I am surprised for the lack of empathy in other threads for the mages though.  Not just Anders and not just in a roleplaying sense but the adoption of a strict templar view by some.

And then they had to make Orsino turn out to be the very man who's been aiding Quentin and therefore destroying any sympathy and credibility he might have had as the voice for the mages. I actually didn't realize that Orsino was the same "O" who was helping Quentin until I came to these forums, but before that I actually really did feel sorry for him and understood his motives for going all Patchwerk on me, even if it did also have a WTF factor as well. Good job there, Bioware <_<

And I think a lot of the problems people have on these forums have is that they need to be bludgeoned over the head with the obvious before they get it. There are good mages that exist and there were helpless mages that were there during the end game sequence, but because ALL we saw were blood mages summoning abominations, people couldn't think outside the box enough to realize that fact.

Modifié par Camilladilla, 30 mars 2011 - 02:07 .

[nodice]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Kirkwall was basically built on Hellmouth, so the despairing mages who are being mistreated by Meredith's iron grip upon them are even more open to demon suggestion, or so I think. Remember that many blood mages become blood mages becauase they first make a deal with a demon. The Ferelden Circle also benefited from having a strong First Enchanter... And I don't know if Orsino outright discouraged blood magic to begin with. Irving had a very staunch stance against it, meanwhile.

Irwing kicked ass. <3

[Jean]

Kirkwall certainly did make Irving and Greagoir look like angels.

[Camilladilla]

Batteries wrote...

Kirkwall certainly did make Irving and Greagoir look like angels.

Oh god, and I used to think Greagoir was an absolute dick too.

[Rinji the Bearded]

nodice wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

Kirkwall was basically built on Hellmouth, so the despairing mages who are being mistreated by Meredith's iron grip upon them are even more open to demon suggestion, or so I think. Remember that many blood mages become blood mages becauase they first make a deal with a demon. The Ferelden Circle also benefited from having a strong First Enchanter... And I don't know if Orsino outright discouraged blood magic to begin with. Irving had a very staunch stance against it, meanwhile.

Irwing kicked ass. <3

I don't know if he's even alive anymore, but I'm sure he'd come to the defense of his mages in the rebellion, even though he seems to somewhat respect Greagoir. 

[Threeparts]

nodice wrote...

Threeparts wrote...

--  Kirkwall is an already-corrupted area, but also in that, ultimately, mages have no choice.

I have wondered this. Why, why don't the mages have a choice, exactly? Why blood magic?  Why even Orsino does it, isn't he supposed to be First Enchanter, one of the good ones, the strong ones. Remember Irwing from Origins? He resisted Uldred to the end. Mages have no excuse for using blood magic. It's the coward's choice, the "I suck at regular magic" choice.

"For every mage like you, there's a dozen who can't control their powers, and those are the ones I fear." -Fenris

The justification for some in Kirkwall is, I imagine, "I can stay in this tower languishing for the rest of my life, while the threats of Meredith, Tranquillity, or Annulment loom over all of us, or I can take a chance on blood magic and see if I can't make a break for it." 
Apostates on the run already have less choice than that. The Templars in Kirkwall are very much the 'stab first, ask questions later' type, so the BMs have even more reason to want to go down fighting.
Like Anders says, it's a choice between a slow death or a quick one. They're hated for what they are already, so many might wonder how much worse it could be to take the plunge.
Circle mages have little control over their own lives, little power to resist lyrium-imbued Templars ordering them to live in a certain way, so I think grasping at something that gives them that power is hard to resist. I'm not surprised at suicide being a common cause of death, they may have seen it as taking the easy way out.

Modifié par Threeparts, 30 mars 2011 - 02:10 .

[_- Songlian -]

Ninche wrote...

-snip-

Alright, I think I understand where you're coming from. You think those 10% innocent mages that will get killed by Anders if he joins the party on the Templars' side are making this path not worth taking because they would be victims of his mistakes, who had no choice about it in the first place. If so, I can accept that. Not saying that I agree to that vision, but I can respect it. 

The main reason why the Rivalry Romance side switching does not bother me is because I really believe Anders is more than the cause he's fighting for. And that he's been getting this aggressive only under the influence of Justice/Vengeance, sometimes that influence causing more harm than good. As Hawke says in that video, it's not like he's going pro-Chantry all of a sudden. He's going more like, let's regroup for now, and then fight harder. That's how I see the entire situation. 

And at this point, I really wish Jennifer would come in and shed some light on the subject. (If she hasn't done that already and I missed it.)

Modifié par - Songlian -, 30 mars 2011 - 02:22 .

[silver-crescent]

I get the idea that so many mages turn to bloog magic, not because they're evil or something, but simply because it's the only thing that works on templars. They're mostly immune to "regular" magic.

[Sialater]

Threeparts wrote...

My main problem with the conflict at the end is that, even with all the effort the writers have gone to in order to show mages in a bad light with abominations and demons running around, they've also sabotaged it at the same time. The Enigma of Kirkwall stuff most notably, showing that Kirkwall is an already-corrupted area, but also in that, ultimately, mages have no choice.

A Templar, if disagreeing with the Knight-Commander, can leave the order. He will suffer lyrium withdrawals, yes, and that can get pretty bad. But once they take of the shiny armour and put down the shield, they can be just like any other person on the street. Very few people are going to whisper fearfully behind their hands that, Maker, that man used to be a Templar.

A mage never has that choice. Whether they choose to become a blood mage or not is almost irrelevant, because - regardless of their intentions - they will always bear the stigma of being a mage. They will always be feared and reviled in that part of the world because of a single trait that they were born with. Is a blood mage feared more than a regular mage? Certainly. Would a regular citizen of Kirkwall care to make note of the differences if they learned that an apostate had moved in next door? Almost certainly not.

I'm sympathetic to the Templars - it can't be an easy life under the Chantry's thumb, addicted to a poisonous substance, and dealing with prisoners who could kill you with a wave of their hand if you upset them. But I simply can't condemn the mages for just being what they are, being who they are born as, for good or ill.

I have to agree with you again.  There's nothing but grey areas here.  Especially when you think of Alistair.  He didn't really have much of a choice until Duncan, after all.

[Camilladilla]

- Songlian - wrote...

Ninche wrote...

-snip-

Alright, I think I understand where you're coming from. You think those 10% innocent mages that will get killed by Anders if he joins the party on the Templars' side are making this path not worth taking because they would be victims of his mistakes, who had no choice about it in the first place. If so, I can accept that. Not saying that I agree to that vision, but I can respect that. 

The main reason why the Rivalry Romance side switching does not bother me is because I really believe Anders is more than the cause he's fighting for. And that he's been getting this aggressive only under the influence of Justice/Vengeance, sometimes that influence causing more harm than good. And as Hawke says in that video, it's not like he's going pro-Chantry all of a sudden. He's going more like, let's regroup for now, and then fight harder. That's how I see the entire situation. 

And at this point, I really wish Jennifer would come in and shed some light on the subject. (If she hasn't done that already and I missed it.)

I'm pretty certain that's more than 10%, we've seen a lot of dead bodies in the Gallows prison and not only that, Gaider's said as much there are a lot more helpless and innocent mages that should have been shown, but weren't due to the game's limitations.

Modifié par Camilladilla, 30 mars 2011 - 02:12 .

[Jean]

Threeparts wrote...

nodice wrote...

Threeparts wrote...

--  Kirkwall is an already-corrupted area, but also in that, ultimately, mages have no choice.

I have wondered this. Why, why don't the mages have a choice, exactly? Why blood magic?  Why even Orsino does it, isn't he supposed to be First Enchanter, one of the good ones, the strong ones. Remember Irwing from Origins? He resisted Uldred to the end. Mages have no excuse for using blood magic. It's the coward's choice, the "I suck at regular magic" choice.

"For every mage like you, there's a dozen who can't control their powers, and those are the ones I fear." -Fenris

The justification for some in Kirkwall is, I imagine, "I can stay in this tower languishing for the rest of my life, while the threats of Meredith, Tranquillity, or Annulment loom over all of us, or I can take a chance on blood magic and see if I can't make a break for it."
Apostates on the run already have less choice than that. The Templars in Kirkwall are very much the 'stab first, ask questions later' type, so the BMs have even more reason to want to go down fighting.
Like Anders says, it's a choice between a slow death or a quick one.
Circle mages have little control over their own lives, little power to resist lyrium-imbued Templars ordering them to live in a certain way, so I think grasping at something that gives them that power is hard to resist. I'm not surprised at suicide being a common cause of death, they may have seen it as taking the easy way out.

And that was what Anders said about the Ferelden Circle, which AFAIK, is supposed to be one of more lenient if not the most Circle there is. I don't want to think about the suicide rate in the Kirkwall Circle.

I do wish we could of seen in the inside of the Gallows at least once. I was a bit excited to during Anders' Dissent quest but we know how that turned out.

[Sialater]

RinjiRenee wrote...

nodice wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

Kirkwall was basically built on Hellmouth, so the despairing mages who are being mistreated by Meredith's iron grip upon them are even more open to demon suggestion, or so I think. Remember that many blood mages become blood mages becauase they first make a deal with a demon. The Ferelden Circle also benefited from having a strong First Enchanter... And I don't know if Orsino outright discouraged blood magic to begin with. Irving had a very staunch stance against it, meanwhile.

Irwing kicked ass. <3

I don't know if he's even alive anymore, but I'm sure he'd come to the defense of his mages in the rebellion, even though he seems to somewhat respect Greagoir. 

Are we sure the surviving Kinloch Hold Templars chose the Chantry?

[Dunizel]

RinjiRenee wrote...


I don't know if he's even alive anymore, but I'm sure he'd come to the defense of his mages in the rebellion, even though he seems to somewhat respect Greagoir. 

I have the feeling that some templars would even side to defend mages against completely insane and power driven templars. 
It happened in Kirkwall, I have no problems believeing that Gregoir would command his forces to defend his Circle mages against that madness.

[Rinji the Bearded]

GREAGOIR/IRVING OTP ♥

I really did want to see inside the Gallows, apparently it was horrible but I had a hard time believing it when all I could see was the courtyard and the Templar Hall (and well, those bits at the end). I'm also sad that due to game limitations, we had no visual on just how many mages there were.

@Sialater: We have no idea, actually. Guess we might find out in DA3?

@Dunziel: I really hope there are some Templars that will side with the mages, but the end of the game gave us no indication of that at all.

[Kawamura]

Camilladilla wrote...

Batteries wrote...

Kirkwall certainly did make Irving and Greagoir look like angels.

Oh god, and I used to think Greagoir was an absolute dick too.

Actually, I super liked Greagoir, except for the silly spelling of his name.

I thought he was a rather reasonable dude, even with the whole Jowan thing. I also thought he was nicer than Irving. >.>

[Magaloo]

@Rinji Well Cullen does side with the mages with some of his troops. Even though he is still obviously affected by what went down at the tower. Thrask would have too if he had not been dumb enough to side with Grace.

[Rinji the Bearded]

I think Cullen is essentially Greagoir ver. 2.0. Greagoir would be so proud!!

But yeah, compared to Kirkwall, Ferelden was a freaking amusement park. "Everyone was kissing everyone."

I want to know what happened to Keran, too.  He was such a nice Templar at the end, and hey, kind of adorable.  He also didn't have the problem of lyrium addiction since he was not a knighted Templar yet.

I wonder who wrote him?

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 30 mars 2011 - 02:31 .

[Jean]

I'm rather bummed thinking that I might of killed most of the templars working together with mages in Kirkwall when Grace went insane. <_<

We still have that Keran kid.

Modifié par Batteries, 30 mars 2011 - 02:29 .