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[SurelyForth]

- Songlian - wrote...

The main reason why the Rivalry Romance side switching does not bother me is because I really believe Anders is more than the cause he's fighting for. And that he's been getting this aggressive only under the influence of Justice/Vengeance, sometimes that influence causing more harm than good. As Hawke says in that video, it's not like he's going pro-Chantry all of a sudden. He's going more like, let's regroup for now, and then fight harder. That's how I see the entire situation. 

And at this point, I really wish Jennifer would come in and shed some light on the subject. (If she hasn't done that already and I missed it.)

He's more than the cause he's fighting for, but he's also a mage who has been persecuted his whole life, independent of Justice/Vengeance, and it's things like the Right of Annulment and Tranquility that has kept mages in their places for a millenia. So it's not just him realizing that he doesn't have to hand himself over whole to the cause, it's him twisting so far around that he's willing to support that system through direct particpation in the very thing that has been used to subjugate him and other mages.

And, I cannot say this enough, for something he did. The fact that his allegiance is to Hawke there and NOT to the mages that he has doomed, however inadvertantly, is what bothers me the most about this ending.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 30 mars 2011 - 02:34 .

[Sialater]

RinjiRenee wrote...

I think Cullen is essentially Greagoir ver. 2.0. Greagoir would be so proud!!

But yeah, compared to Kirkwall, Ferelden was a freaking amusement park. "Everyone was kissing everyone."

I want to know what happened to Keran, too.  He was such a nice Templar at the end, and hey, kind of adorable.  He also didn't have the problem of lyrium addiction since he was not a knighted Templar yet.

I wonder who wrote him?

I saw him after that last quest in Lowtown hanging out outside The Hanged Man.  His ambient dialogue was something like, "Thank you, Hawke.  Until Meredith is deposed, I will not wear the uniform again."  Or something.  I can imagine Anders and Margaret high-fiving each other after they passed.  Or maybe taking a second to make out in the middle of the street.  Much to Varric's amusement and Fenris' seething jealousy.

Modifié par Sialater, 30 mars 2011 - 02:39 .

[blauwvis]

As a fairly diehard mage/freedom supporter, the crazy overuse of blood magic and demons, along with the lack of most anything that shows the other side of magedom (i.e., that they're not all psychos), is the game's biggest weakness, and responsible for the bulk of the unreasonable mage hate amongst some players.

I totally buy the Engima/Hellmouth explanation for all the mage craziness - when coupled with Meredith's overly harsh regime (though I've still read plenty of comments about, how, "oh, it's only the mages saying that; there's no proof") - but you'll only know about that if you find the relevant entries and actually read them. Otherwise, if you're only working on the things that the game explicitly throws at you, it seems as though every single mage in Kirkwall is only a bad hair day away from turning into a gibbering, flesh-rending abomination. Orsino's transformation, too, was a gigantic WTF? moment for me. It felt like they just wanted another boss battle in there and that was a big disappointment.

I almost feel as if blood magic/demon possession were cheapened, what with everybody doing it, whereas in DA:O it was presented as a big effin' deal (though that's still how Anders reacts to it, and my non-mage Hawke took her cues on the matter from him - sorry, Merrill).

You end up with absolutely nothing to go on in terms of how many mages are actually in the Kirkwall Circle, or how many of them might have gone bad. But judging them all on the basis of the ones you fight in game just seems a bit wacky; by that standard, I should probably conclude that 90% of the population of Kirkwall are muggers, gang members, slavers or ninja pirates, since I can't go anywhere at night without having to slaughter half a hundred of them.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Sialater wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

I think Cullen is essentially Greagoir ver. 2.0. Greagoir would be so proud!!

But yeah, compared to Kirkwall, Ferelden was a freaking amusement park. "Everyone was kissing everyone."

I want to know what happened to Keran, too.  He was such a nice Templar at the end, and hey, kind of adorable.  He also didn't have the problem of lyrium addiction since he was not a knighted Templar yet.

I wonder who wrote him?

I saw him after that last quest in Lowtown hanging out outside The Hanged Man.  His ambient dialogue was something like, "Thank you, Hawke.  Until Meredith is deposed, I will not wear the uniform again."  Or something.  I can imagine Anders and Margaret high-fiving each other after they passed.

Awww.  Keran.  <3  He was like, one of my favorite NPCs.  So it sounds like he could potentially go back, if he wasn't killed during the craziness.  I hope he wasn't.

[nodice]

RinjiRenee wrote...
Awww.  Keran.  <3  He was like, one of my favorite NPCs.  So it sounds like he could potentially go back, if he wasn't killed during the craziness.  I hope he wasn't.

Keran was awesome, but I got him fired so I could get approval from Fenris 

Do you side with the mages even if Carver's a templar? Does he attack you? 

[Rinji the Bearded]

I have not yet made Carver a Templar so I don't know if you're forced to kill him. A friend of mine says he'll join you in the final fight against Meredith, but I don't know if you ever have to fight him.

Also POOR KERAN BEING USED FOR APPROVAL

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 30 mars 2011 - 02:49 .

[andrastepreserveme]

Wow this thread moves so fast!

@LupusYonderGirl Really looking forward to your new fic, but I will keeeel you myself if you don't finish AoA!

I am pretty pissed about the Anders Templar bug. I hope the fix comes as its own patch so that I can NEVER download it.

Just because every other character is persuadable, doesn't mean you should be able to turn someone against the very thing they've sacrificed EVERYTHING for. /rage

In other news, I'm hoping to get my big Anders/Hawke fic started fairly soon and am looking for a beta, if anyone is interested?

[Jean]

Carver stands between you and Meredith and says the big "You'll have to go through me." to her. Cullen then steps next to him and says the same. He fights as an NPC though.

I'm perfectly fine being shielded by these men for a short moment.

Modifié par Batteries, 30 mars 2011 - 02:51 .

[Sialater]

Carver fights with Hawke no matter what. Unless you tell him to get lost and why would you do that?

[Ninche]

I just had the most depressing conversation with my boyfriend EVER. He is probably going to start DA2 today and in real life he is super political pro-human rights etc etc so I sort of outlined the whole situation without actually giving away spoilers and he immediately said something like: Well in the end there are only two types of loyalty: to yourself and the people closest to you which means to hell with everyone else, or you have to think of everyone as equals and that means its all down to numbers. So if oppressing a small group of people will keep the larger part of the population safe - it makes sense.

Double broken heart for me =.(

[YamiSnuffles]

SurelyForth wrote...

He's more than the cause he's fighting for, but he's also a mage who has been persecuted his whole life, independent of Justice/Vengeance, and it's things like the Right of Annulment and Tranquility that has kept mages in their places for a millenia. So it's not just him realizing that he doesn't have to hand himself over whole to the cause, it's him twisting so far around that he's willing to support that system through direct particpation in the very thing that has been used to subjugate him and other mages.

And, I cannot say this enough, for something he did. The fact that his allegiance is to Hawke there and NOT to the mages that he has doomed, however inadvertantly, is what bothers me the most about this ending.

This. This pretty much sums up most of my feelings on the matter.

[Sialater]

Ninche wrote...

I just had the most depressing conversation with my boyfriend EVER. He is probably going to start DA2 today and in real life he is super political pro-human rights etc etc so I sort of outlined the whole situation without actually giving away spoilers and he immediately said something like: Well in the end there are only two types of loyalty: to yourself and the people closest to you which means to hell with everyone else, or you have to think of everyone as equals and that means its all down to numbers. So if oppressing a small group of people will keep the larger part of the population safe - it makes sense.

Double broken heart for me =.(

Convince him to play a mage.  You know... one of the downtrodden.

[nodice]

Batteries wrote...

Carver stands between you and Meredith and says the big "You'll have to go through me." to her. Cullen then steps next to him and says the same. He fights as an NPC though.

I'm perfectly fine being shielded by these men for a short moment.

Oh my <3 Cullen, take me now! (Carver...go play outside.)

I'm glad Carver doesn't stay mad at Hawke. He was pretty nasty at the end of Act 2 

[Magaloo]

Ninche wrote...

I just had the most depressing conversation with my boyfriend EVER. He is probably going to start DA2 today and in real life he is super political pro-human rights etc etc so I sort of outlined the whole situation without actually giving away spoilers and he immediately said something like: Well in the end there are only two types of loyalty: to yourself and the people closest to you which means to hell with everyone else, or you have to think of everyone as equals and that means its all down to numbers. So if oppressing a small group of people will keep the larger part of the population safe - it makes sense.

Double broken heart for me =.(

Oh Ninche I am sorry... if it makes you feel better I am pretty involved politically in human rights and the likes and after playing the game I can't take the fight on the side of the Templars.  I guess even more if you play a mage.

Also Sandal said it! Magic is coming and soon everyone will be like they were and then... really who will be the minority?

Modifié par Magaloo, 30 mars 2011 - 02:59 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

There's a difference between what we think of as "oppression" and what the mages of Kirkwall have been through. And it's not as if that mages are few in number -- they are not the majority at all, but there has been a rise in the number of mages born (in Kirkwall anyway, I'm not sure about everywhere else).

[KealaFerret]

mandamcmoo wrote...

In other news, I'm hoping to get my big Anders/Hawke fic started fairly soon and am looking for a beta, if anyone is interested?

I'll beta ya. My time is pretty funky right now, but I've done some fic beta reads before for people and have done some editing, and I'd be happy to help. I'll PM you just in case this is lost in... THE EPIC ANDERS THREAD.

[sonoko]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

He's more than the cause he's fighting for, but he's also a mage who has been persecuted his whole life, independent of Justice/Vengeance, and it's things like the Right of Annulment and Tranquility that has kept mages in their places for a millenia. So it's not just him realizing that he doesn't have to hand himself over whole to the cause, it's him twisting so far around that he's willing to support that system through direct particpation in the very thing that has been used to subjugate him and other mages.

And, I cannot say this enough, for something he did. The fact that his allegiance is to Hawke there and NOT to the mages that he has doomed, however inadvertantly, is what bothers me the most about this ending.

This. This pretty much sums up most of my feelings on the matter.

Agreed.

[Ninche]

Magaloo wrote...

Ninche wrote...

I just had the most depressing conversation with my boyfriend EVER. He is probably going to start DA2 today and in real life he is super political pro-human rights etc etc so I sort of outlined the whole situation without actually giving away spoilers and he immediately said something like: Well in the end there are only two types of loyalty: to yourself and the people closest to you which means to hell with everyone else, or you have to think of everyone as equals and that means its all down to numbers. So if oppressing a small group of people will keep the larger part of the population safe - it makes sense.

Double broken heart for me =.(

Oh Ninche I am sorry... if it makes you feel better I am pretty involved politically in human rights and the likes and after playing the game I can't take the fight on the side of the Templars.  I guess even more if you play a mage.

Also Sandal said it! Magic is coming and soon everyone will be like they were and then... really who will be the minority?

@Sialater I am DEFINITELY making him play a mage, he's like "maybe Ill do a tank and have a mage party with me" and I was like: No. And then he went: i'm a grown boy I can make my own decisions. And I went NO. Haha no that didn't happen, but yes I will force him to play a mage for narrative sake.

And yeess I only heard Sandal's prophesy for the first time last night and it actuallys ounds super mystical and scary. Maybe somehow in the future something will happen that will give everyone magic, that would be awesome

[Threeparts]

Ninche wrote...

And yeess I only heard Sandal's prophesy for the first time last night and it actuallys ounds super mystical and scary. Maybe somehow in the future something will happen that will give everyone magic, that would be awesome

Arcane Warrior rogues, YES PLZ.

[KealaFerret]

blauwvis wrote...

As a fairly diehard mage/freedom supporter, the crazy overuse of blood magic and demons, along with the lack of most anything that shows the other side of magedom (i.e., that they're not all psychos), is the game's biggest weakness, and responsible for the bulk of the unreasonable mage hate amongst some players.

I totally buy the Engima/Hellmouth explanation for all the mage craziness - when coupled with Meredith's overly harsh regime (though I've still read plenty of comments about, how, "oh, it's only the mages saying that; there's no proof") - but you'll only know about that if you find the relevant entries and actually read them. Otherwise, if you're only working on the things that the game explicitly throws at you, it seems as though every single mage in Kirkwall is only a bad hair day away from turning into a gibbering, flesh-rending abomination. Orsino's transformation, too, was a gigantic WTF? moment for me. It felt like they just wanted another boss battle in there and that was a big disappointment.

I almost feel as if blood magic/demon possession were cheapened, what with everybody doing it, whereas in DA:O it was presented as a big effin' deal (though that's still how Anders reacts to it, and my non-mage Hawke took her cues on the matter from him - sorry, Merrill).

You end up with absolutely nothing to go on in terms of how many mages are actually in the Kirkwall Circle, or how many of them might have gone bad. But judging them all on the basis of the ones you fight in game just seems a bit wacky; by that standard, I should probably conclude that 90% of the population of Kirkwall are muggers, gang members, slavers or ninja pirates, since I can't go anywhere at night without having to slaughter half a hundred of them.

A couple of thoughts come from this. I think a lot of the overuse of blood magic and demons serves to underscore a point - maybe mages *do* need some form of control. Templars and mages are both needed, but the relationship there has become corrupted by power struggles and abuse of authority. It's meant to develop that gray area. I do like how it was dealt with when it came to Merrill, who was involved with some of that stuff but are not batcrap evil/crazy.

It sure does seem like Kirkwall may be the center of something, though. It's not typical, there is clearly something wrong there, on both sides. Like Kirkwall drives people kind of mad.

The other thing that strikes me is yeah, ninja pirates ect. You know what I would have liked to see? Something like a funeral procession, or a group of children running by playing, or some kind of festival going on. Something that paints a sense of something else in Kirkwall, a little more life. Would be a great spot for the companions to comment on stuff, too, ect.

Because this thread is going to go off topic without this, is there a place where people have posted links to art and recommended fanfic? If not, we should have one.  

[Rinji the Bearded]

I have no doubt in my mind that mages do need a form of control or a check, but you give either the mages or templars an inch, and the bad eggs will take a mile. So there's really no black and white when it comes to this issue.

[SurelyForth]

KealaFerret wrote...


Because this thread is going to go off topic without this, is there a place where people have posted links to art and recommended fanfic? If not, we should have one.  

There's just links to Anders' fics in FF.net and the Dev Art group. I hate making the calls on what sould be viewed and read, but I will always post links on request.

Unless it's absolute filth. Then I'll post five.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 30 mars 2011 - 03:20 .

[signcherie]

I thought Anders sounded really broken in that pro-Templar video. I mean, I think the animations seemed a little too calm, but listening to his words -- he's basically like, oh god, I want to die, I don't think I can live like this. Then he asks, do you really think it will help? Like he's looking for a way out. Hawke shoots him down, and he's back to wishing he was dead.

So, I'm not sure if I think it's out of character, but I do think it makes him incredibly, heartbreakingly, tragically broken. I will never, ever do it. But I am also strongly pro-mage.

[DeaHamlet]

silver-crescent wrote...

I get the idea that so many mages turn to bloog magic, not because they're evil or something, but simply because it's the only thing that works on templars. They're mostly immune to "regular" magic.

I can concur with this.  Templar Leutenants are rather difficult as hell to kill, but my blood magic they do not resist.  It even immobilizes them when I hit them up for a health refill.  And Merrill's blood magic makes her extremely powerful, she's even better than a PC blood mage.  All I have on her is that I can also turn it off, heal myself and go crazy all over again.  I might outlast her in a very long fight.

Also, does everyone forget the video of the templars going against mages in the templar hall?
Most of the ones that use regular magic get run through a blade in a second.  Also the mages I fought when on templar side, half of them didn't turn into anything, they were just mages using normal mage powers.  Some turned to blood magic, certainly, including Orsino (who I see as the scientist type who appreciates knowledge over anything, even if the knowledge comes from questionable places... even more reason for me to believe Kirkwall is just a ****ed up influence on everyone)... but certainly not all.  And I didn't get to spare most of the ones not turning.  They were either killed by templars and FAST or killed by me and FAST.  I spared 3.  There's a lot more than that that I fight.  And when Anders shows up btw, he shows up with 4-5 mages that NONE of them turn into demons or use blood magic.  They die fast.

They also don't show the children.  Every circle has children and teenagers.  You get to spare 3 adults.  It's a little cowardly on Bioware's part that they don't show the slaughtering of the children and teenagers.  

Hawkette always has a warrior and a rogue at least wielding non-magic and going against templars is still a pain in the behind.  I cannot imagine regular mages, by themselves, once they run off and are recaptured by templars believing anyone who runs off to be a blood mage... they already believe I'm a blood mage, they have me cornered... the demons are whispering, I'm not surprised many give in.  I'm also fairly certain Meredith sounds disappointed that I didn't kill Emile.  I am not certain that templars going after Emile would not have killed him on the spot.  

Alas, we never get to see the life of the mage, the circle mage.  I played a mage in DA:O and as fluffy-ish as it was compared to Kirkwall, it felt like a life forever in prison.  And having the TAINT (LOL) was my only opportunity to be even remotely free... 

[Ninche]

The whole mages-templars dynamic can be amazingly interesting, even romantic, theoretically. If the templars could exist as a separate entity from the Chantry - something like grey wardens who keep an eye on both the mages and the Chantry and only interfere when there is actual need. Maybe that could be their whole purpose - to serve as peacekeepers who never interfere with any politics supporting one side or the other but sort of work to maintain a just relationship between the two.

Also I would not mind the whole Chantry thing at all if they were all peaceful and loving people. But there is just too much bull**** in their chants for my liking.