57020 réponses à ce sujet

[Amondra]

Miri1984 wrote...

@Amondra Mmmm. Hulk shred = naked Anders. Dammit, why didn't we get a naked sex scene? I want to see his unique body model .

@Surely I agree. You can get Merrill to change her mind about the mirror, but she would never voluntarily attack the clan, even though it can be forced on her, the whole way through the battle she is saying things like "this is a nightmare and I want to wake up". Getting Anders to kill the mages, I think, would be similar. Every mage he cut down would kill a little bit more of him. Getting rid of Justice is not worth that cost.

Seriously!  I was like god damn that kiss was hot! Then I get to the house seen and I am all excited, sweet scene plays and the lay on the bed and I am like "HELL YES!! FINALLY!" screen fade to black and my soul catches fire and I write angry letters to Bioware!

As for the friend/rival mance with Anders all the friendship one really means is that he will be fine as long as you don't take him shopping, because Maker's breath if the merchant tried to rip you off, he Justice would pop out and threaten the mechant to give you a fair price or face Justice.  Ther merchant would then die from shock and no new weapon for you

[DeaHamlet]

Miri1984 wrote...

Oooh, woke up to people saying nice things about my fic. I shall enjoy walking around today with a big head *blush*. Thanks guys .

You rock and WE WANT MORE.
*ahem* Well, I want more.
And I promise not to be creepy. 

[YamiSnuffles]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

In the cases of all the companions, you can get them to do things they ordinarily wouldn't do as well, things that run counter to their normal beliefs - like getting Izzy returning with the book or getting Fenris to help you with the mages at the end (when he is clearly quite hostile towards mages and magic in general). With the frienship/rivalry system, you're effectively winning their respect and loyalty, so much so that they will change to a certain degree and follow your lead even when they disagree with you on a fundamental level.

The way I see it, returning the book goes against Izzy's usual nature, but not some deeply held belief and certainly not against some cause she'd been actively fighting for. In Fenris' case, I think his core issue was slavery. He hated mages because they happened to be the ones who had enslaved him, but his main problem was slavery. That's why it made sense to me that he would be willing to side with Hawke and the mages because he finally saw them as slaves. Thus, even when siding with the mages he sticks to his core beliefs. Had Hawke made Fenris actively enslave some people, then I would have called BS.

As to Anders, he's always been about mage freedom. Originally it was only his own freedom that he could bring himself to worry about, but it was still the most important thing for him. He won't let anything- or anyone- lock him up. So while he might not have fought so strongly for mage freedom without Justice, it's not like this cause is new to him in the slightest. I can see rival Anders being convinced to not be so extreme- to be, I suppose, focused merely on his own freedom instead of bringing other mages into the fight. I can also understand him fighting against Justice since Justice is driving him to fight. However, having him actively help opress other mages is going above and beyond changing "to a certain degree" to follow Hawke.

By fighting the mages, he's helping to make sure no mage ever gets the freedom he has always fought to have himself. That, to me, feels the same as if you could get Fenris to enslave a group of people or have Merril purposefully try to destroy the Dalish. If you can convince Anders that the Templars are right, you should also have to have him join the Circle in the end, and Hawke should have to join if he/she is a mage. Why should they get the freedom they are fighting against?

[leggywillow]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...
As far as the kissing goes...I didn't really think it would be appropriate in the friendmance ending, largely because even though I was willing to stand by him, the last thing I wanted to do was to snog with Anders immediately after the shock of the Chantry being blown up. The rivalmance kiss...well, I think that's a matter of him expressing his feelings one last time in case he dies. He clearly doesn't want Justice/Vengeance to control him aynmore.

To derail this intelligent conversation...

I think the whole kissing-after-the-Chantry-explosion debate is ruined for me now after I started reading the kink meme last night and found one in which Anders and Hawke bang on top of the still-smoldering ruins of the Chantry.  Sooooo.... yeah.  I don't think I'll ever be able to get that out of my head.  A kiss would be quite tame in comparison.

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

^ What is this I don't even.

[Ryzaki]

But doesn't that all depend on just how deeply he held those beliefs?

Fenris holds beliefs that free mages are not good yet he fights for their freedom? Why is that seen lesser than Anders beliefs? Both of them have suffered abuses from the groups that they can end up fighting for in those cases. Fenris has seen many lives (probably as many as Anders have seen) destroyed and ruined because of Magisters.

eh. I dunno. I just want it fixed so I can see how much sense it makes. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 30 mars 2011 - 09:20 .

[Miri1984]

@YamiSnuffles You said what I wanted to say but better-er. You can change your companion's VIEWS, but you can't change their fundamental cores. Fenris would NEVER agree to enslave others, just as Merrill would never agree to wipe out Dalish history. There's a massive leap from "you're going about freeing the mages the wrong way" to "let's annul this circle and then repopulate it with children who have been ripped from their families just like I was from mine."

[nyxocity]

leggywillow wrote...

AtreiyaN7 wrote...
As far as the kissing goes...I didn't really think it would be appropriate in the friendmance ending, largely because even though I was willing to stand by him, the last thing I wanted to do was to snog with Anders immediately after the shock of the Chantry being blown up. The rivalmance kiss...well, I think that's a matter of him expressing his feelings one last time in case he dies. He clearly doesn't want Justice/Vengeance to control him aynmore.

To derail this intelligent conversation...

I think the whole kissing-after-the-Chantry-explosion debate is ruined for me now after I started reading the kink meme last night and found one in which Anders and Hawke bang on top of the still-smoldering ruins of the Chantry.  Sooooo.... yeah.  I don't think I'll ever be able to get that out of my head.  A kiss would be quite tame in comparison.

...you wouldn't happen to have a link to that would you? **** that's hot.

[AnniLau]

Anders says something early on about not thinking he and Justice can be separated...that the only way he knows of a spirit leaving the flesh is death. So, if you were a mage with good control of your electricity spell, do you think it would be possible to stop his heart, have Justice GTFO, then (hopefully!) restart it again? Or are their souls too entwined? And, if it were possible, who would Anders be now without Justice? Still not the guy from DA:A, I think. *ponders*

[Ryzaki]

Miri1984 wrote...

@YamiSnuffles You said what I wanted to say but better-er. You can change your companion's VIEWS, but you can't change their fundamental cores. Fenris would NEVER agree to enslave others, just as Merrill would never agree to wipe out Dalish history. There's a massive leap from "you're going about freeing the mages the wrong way" to "let's annul this circle and then repopulate it with children who have been ripped from their families just like I was from mine."

The circle is a form of enslavement and Fenris while he doesn't go "yay enslavement" sees the necessity of it. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 30 mars 2011 - 09:23 .

[YamiSnuffles]

Ryzaki wrote...

Miri1984 wrote...

@YamiSnuffles You said what I wanted to say but better-er. You can change your companion's VIEWS, but you can't change their fundamental cores. Fenris would NEVER agree to enslave others, just as Merrill would never agree to wipe out Dalish history. There's a massive leap from "you're going about freeing the mages the wrong way" to "let's annul this circle and then repopulate it with children who have been ripped from their families just like I was from mine."

The circle is a form of enslavement and Fenris while he doesn't go "yay enslavement" sees the necessity of it. 

Yes, and when he finally gets that, he fights against it.

[Miri1984]

@Ryzaki He doesn't see it that way until the end, when you convince him of that through your arguments.

ETA and also, Fenris isn't the one actively putting the mages into the circle to live as slaves, which is basically what you're asking Anders to do if he sides with the templars.

Modifié par Miri1984, 30 mars 2011 - 09:27 .

[ipgd]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

By fighting the mages, he's helping to make sure no mage ever gets the freedom he has always fought to have himself. That, to me, feels the same as if you could get Fenris to enslave a group of people or have Merril purposefully try to destroy the Dalish. If you can convince Anders that the Templars are right, you should also have to have him join the Circle in the end, and Hawke should have to join if he/she is a mage. Why should they get the freedom they are fighting against?

I think it's more like how Fenris reacts if you give him back to Danarius. He just breaks. I don't think he would be able to fight against the mages in any sort of sound mind, but he's probably in shock and completely distrusts his ability to make judgments. He's basically Ketojan at that point, looking to Hawke as his arvaarad because he's convinced he doesn't have the capacity to control or understand how dangerous he is. He probably feels that what he's doing is horrible, but doesn't trust himself.

[Frishmet]

SidheKate wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

From what i saw Elthina was the one person who was keeping Meredith from going overboard, and she was hoping for the sides to work out their differences instead of being forced into a corner (what Anders essentially did; he admits his main incentive in blowing up the Chantry was to remove that one thing which was stopping the excrements from getting in the fan)  Given that, i'd expect Elthina to actually act if situation deteriorated to the point where Meredith could no longer be reasoned with. I.e. in few weeks, tops.

Meaning, overall similar outcome minus the blown up Chantry and minus the Circle War.

I've never been so sure that Elthina was as neutral as she liked to say.  Talk to Cullen in Act 3.  I picked the option to ask what he thought the Grand Cleric would do, and he was adamant that she would always have to side with the templars.  He admitted it was cruel of her, though, to lead the mages on the way she was.

Maybe that was just his opinion, but it certainly changed mine of the whole situation.  I stopped thinking of her as balanced and reasonable and started thinking of her as manipulative and possibly the best liar in the game.  When you speak to her about the mages, she claims to feel for them and that she wouldn't want to be locked up in the Gallows.  But if Cullen is right, and she never had any intention of helping the mages...

And don't forget, Merideth called for the Rite of Annulment when the Grand Cleric was still alive.  No way the Knight-Commander does that when the Grand Cleric doesn't know. 

Edit: lol I see my point has been brought up by others just before me.  'ed   

If you go back to Elthina near the end and try talking to her she says (and I'm not sure if this is the exact quote but close) "If you've come back to try to convince me to leave again there's no point - this is now between the templars and the malificarum." 

She doesn't even call them mages at this point. It just seems to me another indicator that she does know what Merideth intends and just doesn't want to be the one to pull the trigger.

Modifié par Frishmet, 30 mars 2011 - 09:28 .

[HolyJellyfish]

shiba5 wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

HolyJellyfish wrote...

I'm not sure if people are already aware about the bug, but here goes -

So I got in touch with Jennifer Hepler via message. She sent out a note to the debuggers about how everyone is unable to access the Rivalry Pro-Templar Anders decision in Act 3 (I personally want this for my final game. I like seeing Anders realize just how bad things are, and I don't feel justified keeping him alive in any other situation unless it is to actually clean up his mess) - So they should be releasing a patch with that issue.

Just as a heeaadz up.

So Anders really is just a murderer. And one with a perfect scapegoat.

****. Well, that was fun while it lasted.

This ending makes zero sense to me unless he delievers the last line with his head slowing rotating around 360 degrees.  <_<

I personally am for this ending. Hawke makes it very clear to possessed Anders over and over and over again that violence is not justification for a revolution, and no matter how 'good' his intentions are, Anders is leaning more towards abomination blood thirst than good cause.

Not to mention that all of the mages you are fighting against have become maleficar. Last I checked, Justice hates blood mages and demons even more than mad templars.

Its one thing to turn against innocent mages, and another entirely to turn against violent demon humping mages. In many ways, it is sort of a turning point. Templars are absolutely necessary to save mages from themselves. Anders is living proof of this. I imagine Anders understand that in the Rivalmance Pro-Templar turning point.

But that's just me defending it. I can see how it is justified.

[leggywillow]

thenyxie wrote...

leggywillow wrote...
To derail this intelligent conversation...

I think the whole kissing-after-the-Chantry-explosion debate is ruined for me now after I started reading the kink meme last night and found one in which Anders and Hawke bang on top of the still-smoldering ruins of the Chantry.  Sooooo.... yeah.  I don't think I'll ever be able to get that out of my head.  A kiss would be quite tame in comparison.

...you wouldn't happen to have a link to that would you? **** that's hot.

Here it is.

It's actually not as lulzy as the prompt request made it seem.  XD  But it's such a bizarre idea that I don't think I can ever see the Chantry explosion without picturing Anders and Hawke doing it doggie-style on the rubble.  Because apparently my brain is addicted to brain bleach and likes putting itself in situations to obtain some.

[SurelyForth]

Ryzaki wrote...

I hope on the rivalry path we can point out to Anders the obscene amount of bloodmages (that he is well aware of being there yet somehow doesn't see that as proving Meredith's point). Because that convo was a bit "....really?" for me.

We save Grace who later repays us by kidnapping Hawke's sibling/LI/Varric/other party member nearly every mage we meet during endgame is a bloodmage and attacks us on sight.

Ugh. The more and more I play this game the more I lean towards the templars point of view. Too much power and too much stupidity on the mages side.  

Why does anyone who thinks mages are too powerful and easy to corrupt romance Anders and want to stay with him after what he's done? He is, by his own admission, a monster and a really horrible example of what a mage should be. He is The Problem. Hell, he's more of The Problem than the mages in the Circle because he's free and he's not being imprisoned and abused.

The way I see it, the average Circle mage would not turn to blood magic unless their situation was becoming dire. With Meredith going crazy, on account of the idol sword (and seriously, this game might have had a much happier ending had Varric or Hawke, you know, ASKED BARTRAND WHO HE SOLD THE IDOL TO) and the mages in the Circle being punished for the actions of the mages outside the Circle...that is a dire situation.

What we see in the end game is the result of over seven years of tyranny (on top of a millenia of gradually escalating subjugation), the last three of them augmented by Crazy Paranoid Meredith, and the mages reacting to that. I don't know what sort of iron constitution some people have, but a lifetime of abuse and degredation with no hope of it ever improving wears a person down and the Chantry uses that as another means of control. I just....can't not sympathize. It is horrible that they lose control, but they are the product of their environment. They might be born with magic, but the ones that were turned into monsters were turned so by circumstance, not by anything innately evil within them.

@Holly Justice is unhappy with Anders' decision; he says he can feel him scratching to get out.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 30 mars 2011 - 09:32 .

[Torax]

Ryzaki wrote...

But doesn't that all depend on just how deeply he held those beliefs?

Fenris holds beliefs that free mages are not good yet he fights for their freedom? Why is that seen lesser than Anders beliefs? Both of them have suffered abuses from the groups that they can end up fighting for in those cases.

Fenris believes that mages who seek power eventually lead to trouble. Anders thinks mages don't seek power. They both do not have faith in the Circle. But Anders thinks all the blood mages and so on is because of the templar abuse. Fenris understands that at times this is the case but once they are free to choose man would become more magisters in his mind.

The main difference that some of the Fenris fanboys would probably argue their side is just that Fenris does think the Circle there felt like a prison and just built up fear and things of that nature. Fenris wasn't going to start a war over it all. Anders & Justice started to go extremist and thought only a war would end it all. Not even caring about the innocents in the wake.

Fenris doesn't seem to quite want all mages dead. He just thinks if left to their own devices they could be trouble. Case in point how he's nicer to bethany and just warns the danger of her templar hunters. Meanwhile Fenris thinks Anders is playing with fire with the spirit/demon inside him and doesn't like how Anders only seems to want war. Fenris doesn't approve of Merrill because of her consorting with a demon and then happily using blood magic in an attempt to recover a past he thinks failed and should move on. He doesn't hate her as a person, he just thinks she is on a slippery path. A mage meaning well can still cause trouble. Bethany is like Wynne from Origins, both kind souls who mean well. The mages in DA2 are screwed up cause lets face it so is the entire city. 

[DeaHamlet]

YamiSnuffles wrote...
 If you can convince Anders that the Templars are right, you should also have to have him join the Circle in the end, and Hawke should have to join if he/she is a mage. Why should they get the freedom they are fighting against?

Yeah, I don't get this.

If the champion fights alongside the templars, sides with the circle... then shouldn't the champion as mage:
1. not be allowed to be Viscount
2. should have turned him/herself into the circle instead of living lavishly 

I mean, if a mage believes the circle is the way to go, whether it needs some fixing or not, then they should go there.  Not rule. Not fret about the city freely using his/her powers.

That woman you hunt down in Darktown... she went and gave herself in because she thought the circle was just.  She did not try to escape it.  And then she saw that it was abusive and horrid and nobody gave a **** about people in need... and she went the way she went.
But if the champion believes in the circle, they should also go there.  And so should Anders if he sides with templars.  
And I can imagine just how much Awakening Anders would hate going to the circle.  Any circle.  Even the relatively mild one of Ferelden.

[ipgd]

Basically :innocent:

[YamiSnuffles]

SurelyForth wrote...
 With Meredith going crazy, on account of the idol sword (and seriously, this game might have had a much happier ending had Varric or Hawke, you know, ASKED BARTRAND WHO HE SOLD THE IDOL TO)

Okay, mostly off topic... but I think with the idol, Bartrand didn't know/remember who he sold it to by the time you find him. I believe you can have it mentioned that he sold it "to some lady" or something like that. Unfortunately, he was too off his rocker to get it back himself or tell anyone else where it went.

[nodice]

Ryzaki wrote...

Oddly DA2 review seems to lack a lot of venom. So I guess he found it decent at least.

Or not. I got the feeling he didn't really appreciate DA2, compared to his DAO review. He pretty much said this game is bland and lazy, which I agree, about the lazyness. And because I know something about designing games, I can tell this game uses really cheap stuff, such as the recycled environments, the painted shadows and lights... Why, this is game seriously huge, why can't they make 3 different caves, not just the one. And it's even worse if you look at the map and see there's more of the area=it's the same goddamn thing, some ways are just blocked to make it look different. But the map is the same. Argh. Mass Effect warehouse phenomena. 

[DeaHamlet]

Frishmet wrote...
If you go back to Elthina near the end and try talking to her she says (and I'm not sure if this is the exact quote but close) "If you've come back to try to convince me to leave again there's no point - this is now between the templars and the malificarum." 

She doesn't even call them mages at this point. It just seems to me another indicator that she does know what Merideth intends and just doesn't want to be the one to pull the trigger.

Oh yeah, I noticed that.  I was like... wait... what?!?!

[Torax]

The Champion doesn't have to believe in the circle. It's just like the the following;

Do I side with the crazy power hungry chick who wants me to kill all mages? Or do I protect these mages who aren't blood mages and just don't want to be dead or tranquil?

I don't have to think the circle works to think that i'd rather not be dead if I was the mage or have my sister die if was another class. It's Anders, Orsino and Meredith that think of it as the Order vs. the Circle. Hawke may just see it as Sebastian stated. "Why are we talking about the Right of Annulment when the Monster that did this standing right here?"

[Aynslie]

AnniLau wrote...

Anders says something early on about not thinking he and Justice can be separated...that the only way he knows of a spirit leaving the flesh is death. So, if you were a mage with good control of your electricity spell, do you think it would be possible to stop his heart, have Justice GTFO, then (hopefully!) restart it again? Or are their souls too entwined? And, if it were possible, who would Anders be now without Justice? Still not the guy from DA:A, I think. *ponders*

He would probably be alot less obsessive and would lighten up a bit, although not to the point of DA:A.  

When he said that the only way to separate a possession is with death, I thought he meant the death of the spirite/demon.  In DA:O we can save Conner by entering the fade and kililng the desire demon possessing him.  Unfortunately Justice isn't in the Fade he is IN Anders.      But I also thought about using the lightening spell to restart Anders Heart to get rid of Justice.  

Something I was thinking about.  Justice is pretty much an immortal spirit so long as he has a body.  The body doesn't even have to be alive, such as the case in Awakening.  When we kill Anders at the end (if you chose to do so) couldn't Justice just get up and walk off with Anders' dead body?  Also, if Justice can't be killed by traditional means (assuming that Justice is pretty much immortal since he can possess dead bodies) then is Anders dead at the end?  I bet he isn't, even if you  choose to kill him.