leggywillow wrote...
Dunizel wrote...
Very nice Anders tribute
Would have worked really well even as the characters presentation!
Ooh that was really good. Usually I'm not really into tribute videos, but this one was nice.
But who was the guy Rogue Hawke murder-knifed in the eye?! I never did that with my rogue! There was a sad lack of murder-knife in this game.
HolyJellyfish wrote...
Not to mention that all of the mages you are fighting against have become maleficar. Last I checked, Justice hates blood mages and demons even more than mad templars.
Miri1984 wrote...
@Ryzaki He doesn't see it that way until the end, when you convince him of that through your arguments.
ETA and also, Fenris isn't the one actively putting the mages into the circle to live as slaves, which is basically what you're asking Anders to do if he sides with the templars.
YamiSnuffles wrote...
Yes, and when he finally gets that, he fights against it.
Modifié par Ryzaki, 30 mars 2011 - 09:39 .
leggywillow wrote...
thenyxie wrote...
leggywillow wrote...
To derail this intelligent conversation...
I think the whole kissing-after-the-Chantry-explosion debate is ruined for me now after I started reading the kink meme last night and found one in which Anders and Hawke bang on top of the still-smoldering ruins of the Chantry. Sooooo.... yeah. I don't think I'll ever be able to get that out of my head. A kiss would be quite tame in comparison.
...you wouldn't happen to have a link to that would you? **** that's hot.
Here it is.
It's actually not as lulzy as the prompt request made it seem. XD But it's such a bizarre idea that I don't think I can ever see the Chantry explosion without picturing Anders and Hawke doing it doggie-style on the rubble. Because apparently my brain is addicted to brain bleach and likes putting itself in situations to obtain some.
After reading, I'm finding it sort of dark and scary (in a good way).
ipgd wrote...
I think it's more like how Fenris reacts if you give him back to Danarius. He just breaks. I don't think he would be able to fight against the mages in any sort of sound mind, but he's probably in shock and completely distrusts his ability to make judgments. He's basically Ketojan at that point, looking to Hawke as his arvaarad because he's convinced he doesn't have the capacity to control or understand how dangerous he is. He probably feels that what he's doing is horrible, but doesn't trust himself.YamiSnuffles wrote...
By fighting the mages, he's helping to make sure no mage ever gets the freedom he has always fought to have himself. That, to me, feels the same as if you could get Fenris to enslave a group of people or have Merril purposefully try to destroy the Dalish. If you can convince Anders that the Templars are right, you should also have to have him join the Circle in the end, and Hawke should have to join if he/she is a mage. Why should they get the freedom they are fighting against?
Modifié par Magaloo, 30 mars 2011 - 09:41 .
I'm pretty sure Justice would have let go; it seemed like he wanted to die. In the friendship path, anyway. I could buy him animating Anders's meat suit on the rivalry path if he perceived the death wish as a weakness originating from Anders, but he seemed very set on the idea that the people he killed also deserved Justice.Aynslie wrote...
Something I was thinking about. Justice is pretty much an immortal spirit so long as he has a body. The body doesn't even have to be alive, such as the case in Awakening. When we kill Anders at the end (if you chose to do so) couldn't Justice just get up and walk off with Anders' dead body? Also, if Justice can't be killed by traditional means (assuming that Justice is pretty much immortal since he can possess dead bodies) then is Anders dead at the end? I bet he isn't, even if you choose to kill him.
Because Love gives you blind spots? That does happen you know.SurelyForth wrote...
Why does anyone who thinks mages are too powerful and easy to corrupt romance Anders and want to stay with him after what he's done? He is, by his own admission, a monster and a really horrible example of what a mage should be. He is The Problem. Hell, he's more of The Problem than the mages in the Circle because he's free and he's not being imprisoned and abused.
The way I see it, the average Circle mage would not turn to blood magic unless their situation was becoming dire. With Meredith going crazy, on account of the idol sword (and seriously, this game might have had a much happier ending had Varric or Hawke, you know, ASKED BARTRAND WHO HE SOLD THE IDOL TO) and the mages in the Circle being punished for the actions of the mages outside the Circle...that is a dire situation.
What we see in the end game is the result of over seven years of tyranny (on top of a millenia of gradually escalating subjugation), the last three of them augmented by Crazy Paranoid Meredith, and the mages reacting to that. I don't know what sort of iron constitution some people have, but a lifetime of abuse and degredation with no hope of it ever improving wears a person down and the Chantry uses that as another means of control. I just....can't not sympathize. It is horrible that they lose control, but they are the product of their environment. They might be born with magic, but the ones that were turned into monsters were turned so by circumstance, not by anything innately evil within them.
Ryzaki wrote...
Miri1984 wrote...
@Ryzaki He doesn't see it that way until the end, when you convince him of that through your arguments.
ETA and also, Fenris isn't the one actively putting the mages into the circle to live as slaves, which is basically what you're asking Anders to do if he sides with the templars.
Actually he is very much aware of it. He just decides to act on faith with Hawke. He and Anders even have a banter discussing it. "They are slaves! You should want to help them!" "I don't."
And no actually you're not. You're asking Anders to purge the circle. I.E. kill all the mages. Not enslave anyone. And seeing as most of the mages are turning to bloodmagic/abominations I see it being very much defense.YamiSnuffles wrote...
Yes, and when he finally gets that, he fights against it.
Nope. When Hawke says it he fights against it because he trusts Hawke. Anders mentions th same thing to him and he doesn't give a hoot.
Ryzaki wrote...
Miri1984 wrote...
@Ryzaki He doesn't see it that way until the end, when you convince him of that through your arguments.
ETA and also, Fenris isn't the one actively putting the mages into the circle to live as slaves, which is basically what you're asking Anders to do if he sides with the templars.
Actually he is very much aware of it. He just decides to act on faith with Hawke. He and Anders even have a banter discussing it. "They are slaves! You should want to help them!" "I don't."
And no actually you're not. You're asking Anders to purge the circle. I.E. kill all the mages. Not enslave anyone. And seeing as most of the mages are turning to bloodmagic/abominations I see it being very much defense.
Modifié par SurelyForth, 30 mars 2011 - 09:46 .
Torax wrote...
Fenris believes that mages who seek power eventually lead to trouble. Anders thinks mages don't seek power. They both do not have faith in the Circle. But Anders thinks all the blood mages and so on is because of the templar abuse. Fenris understands that at times this is the case but once they are free to choose man would become more magisters in his mind.
The main difference that some of the Fenris fanboys would probably argue their side is just that Fenris does think the Circle there felt like a prison and just built up fear and things of that nature. Fenris wasn't going to start a war over it all. Anders & Justice started to go extremist and thought only a war would end it all. Not even caring about the innocents in the wake.
Fenris doesn't seem to quite want all mages dead. He just thinks if left to their own devices they could be trouble. Case in point how he's nicer to bethany and just warns the danger of her templar hunters. Meanwhile Fenris thinks Anders is playing with fire with the spirit/demon inside him and doesn't like how Anders only seems to want war. Fenris doesn't approve of Merrill because of her consorting with a demon and then happily using blood magic in an attempt to recover a past he thinks failed and should move on. He doesn't hate her as a person, he just thinks she is on a slippery path. A mage meaning well can still cause trouble. Bethany is like Wynne from Origins, both kind souls who mean well. The mages in DA2 are screwed up cause lets face it so is the entire city.
YamiSnuffles wrote...
AtreiyaN7 wrote...
In the cases of all the companions, you can get them to do things they ordinarily wouldn't do as well, things that run counter to their normal beliefs - like getting Izzy returning with the book or getting Fenris to help you with the mages at the end (when he is clearly quite hostile towards mages and magic in general). With the frienship/rivalry system, you're effectively winning their respect and loyalty, so much so that they will change to a certain degree and follow your lead even when they disagree with you on a fundamental level.
The way I see it, returning the book goes against Izzy's usual nature, but not some deeply held belief and certainly not against some cause she'd been actively fighting for. In Fenris' case, I think his core issue was slavery. He hated mages because they happened to be the ones who had enslaved him, but his main problem was slavery. That's why it made sense to me that he would be willing to side with Hawke and the mages because he finally saw them as slaves. Thus, even when siding with the mages he sticks to his core beliefs. Had Hawke made Fenris actively enslave some people, then I would have called BS.
As to Anders, he's always been about mage freedom. Originally it was only his own freedom that he could bring himself to worry about, but it was still the most important thing for him. He won't let anything- or anyone- lock him up. So while he might not have fought so strongly for mage freedom without Justice, it's not like this cause is new to him in the slightest. I can see rival Anders being convinced to not be so extreme- to be, I suppose, focused merely on his own freedom instead of bringing other mages into the fight. I can also understand him fighting against Justice since Justice is driving him to fight. However, having him actively help opress other mages is going above and beyond changing "to a certain degree" to follow Hawke.
By fighting the mages, he's helping to make sure no mage ever gets the freedom he has always fought to have himself. That, to me, feels the same as if you could get Fenris to enslave a group of people or have Merril purposefully try to destroy the Dalish. If you can convince Anders that the Templars are right, you should also have to have him join the Circle in the end, and Hawke should have to join if he/she is a mage. Why should they get the freedom they are fighting against?
SurelyForth wrote...
And they're defending themselves, too. From your attack.
That's the thing. The mages aren't just flailing around the Gallows, waiting for any unsuspecting templar to come along so they can kill them. They are trapped like rats in a prison and, rather than just taking the death ordered on them, they are choosing to fight for their lives.
It's what Anders WANTED them to do. Not the turning into abominations part, but when up against every templar in the city and Hawke and their crew, then it's pretty much the only way for them to survive.
When Hawke doesn't side with the templars, there are no abominations until Orsino has his little meltdown over having failed the ones who died. It's the desperation of knowing that they are almost certainly dead that drives most of those mages to turn into abominations, not some deep-seated desire to kill kill kill. Or even be free. Just...not dead.
). YamiSnuffles wrote...
Fenris also comments when he goes to the Gallows earlier in the game that he doesn't see slavery. He sees opression and fear, but not slavery. So once someone he doesn't loathe convinces him that it is slavery, he fights against it.
Modifié par Ryzaki, 30 mars 2011 - 09:58 .
leggywillow wrote...
To derail this intelligent conversation...
I think the whole kissing-after-the-Chantry-explosion debate is ruined for me now after I started reading the kink meme last night and found one in which Anders and Hawke bang on top of the still-smoldering ruins of the Chantry. Sooooo.... yeah. I don't think I'll ever be able to get that out of my head. A kiss would be quite tame in comparison.
Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 30 mars 2011 - 09:51 .
Ryzaki wrote...
SurelyForth wrote...
And they're defending themselves, too. From your attack.
That's the thing. The mages aren't just flailing around the Gallows, waiting for any unsuspecting templar to come along so they can kill them. They are trapped like rats in a prison and, rather than just taking the death ordered on them, they are choosing to fight for their lives.
It's what Anders WANTED them to do. Not the turning into abominations part, but when up against every templar in the city and Hawke and their crew, then it's pretty much the only way for them to survive.
When Hawke doesn't side with the templars, there are no abominations until Orsino has his little meltdown over having failed the ones who died. It's the desperation of knowing that they are almost certainly dead that drives most of those mages to turn into abominations, not some deep-seated desire to kill kill kill. Or even be free. Just...not dead.
No.
There are abominations as soon as you start fighting after deciding what to do with Anders with the girl who goes berserk. The abominations turn on you no matter who you side with. You are swarmed by desire demons and sloth demons no matter which side you choose. I feel like a fool siding with the mages having to fight both demons and templars.YamiSnuffles wrote...
Fenris also comments when he goes to the Gallows earlier in the game that he doesn't see slavery. He sees opression and fear, but not slavery. So once someone he doesn't loathe convinces him that it is slavery, he fights against it.
Ah I have to replay that part.
I concede your point then.
Modifié par Torax, 30 mars 2011 - 09:54 .
Ryzaki wrote...
No.
There are abominations as soon as you start fighting after deciding what to do with Anders with the girl who goes berserk. The abominations turn on you no matter who you side with. You are swarmed by desire demons and sloth demons no matter which side you choose. I feel like a fool siding with the mages having to fight both demons and templars.
Modifié par SurelyForth, 30 mars 2011 - 09:58 .
HolyJellyfish wrote...
Also, after watching the Pro-Templar Anders youtube video, he seems to suggest he is committed to dying after what he's been through and what he is prepared to do (turn against the mages).
Again, its a unique turning point that I don't think people should be so quick to attack. RivalAnders doesn't know what he wants anymore, and if it is even his own feelings or Justice's. What he is aware of is that cornered mages DO turn to blood magic in order to survive, and is anyone really willing to support a cause when the only people who survived to support that cause are - in fact - maleficar and abominations?
Its just a thought. Maybe I'm just playing the devil's advocate. I've always prefered the least chosen paths or the 'WTF MAKES NO SENSE' decisions. But that is how I see it justified.
In the end, of the two groups, only the Templars realize they have gone too far and steady their hands. What is left of the mages are the ones people really wouldn't want to associate with anyways. Survival at any cost should never mean selling your soul, and Anders is very aware of that.
AtreiyaN7 wrote...
YamiSnuffles wrote...
As to Anders, he's always been about mage freedom. Originally it was only his own freedom that he could bring himself to worry about, but it was still the most important thing for him. He won't let anything- or anyone- lock him up. So while he might not have fought so strongly for mage freedom without Justice, it's not like this cause is new to him in the slightest. I can see rival Anders being convinced to not be so extreme- to be, I suppose, focused merely on his own freedom instead of bringing other mages into the fight. I can also understand him fighting against Justice since Justice is driving him to fight. However, having him actively help opress other mages is going above and beyond changing "to a certain degree" to follow Hawke.
Well, I don't think Anders has always been all about mage freedom. Anders may have been for his personal freedom, but as you'll recall, he had no interest in fighting to free all mages in Awakening - until Justice started nudging him in that direction. Even then, he was still resistant to the idea. He didn't suddenly turn into the Che of the mage world overnight. Anders's deep-seated frustration and anger was always there in Awakening, but I feel that it would have remained unfocused and unacted upon until he merged with Justice. It seems to me that all his anger, beliefs, etc. only coalesced and crystallized into a crusade post-merging under the influence of Justice.
As for Izzy/Fenris, I feel that Isabela has always, always been all about looking out for herself. I think she's a good person at her core, but her primarmy philosophy in life seems to be "What's best for Isabela?" She would not have even come back with the book but for the fact that Hawke basically wins her over and gets her to see hat there are more important things in life than selfishly looking out for oneself. Fenris's main focus is about slavery, but that is tied pretty deeply (in my opinion) with his hatred towards mages and the Imperium in general. In Tevinter, mages and slavers are often one and the same. In the case of Fenris's change of allegiant at the end, it seems to me that Hawke is using his hatred of slavery to overcome his innate hatred of mages and magic. A person can have a few core beliefs, not just one, so I'd argue that Fenris has at least two - he's anti-slavery and anti-mage.
SurelyForth wrote...
Those are not Circle mages and you kill them no matter what side you go with.
I have said several times that Meredith keeping the templars in Kirkwall to fight the mages there would have been a Really Great Idea because thare are a bunch of apostates out and about and they really are a danger to everyone around them.
But they aren't they aren't the ones you are sentencing to death. The mages in the Circle are the ones that I am arguing for. They are the ones who have been imprisoned through this whole ordeal and who are so completely outside the circle (derp) of blame that it builds the entire argument Hawke has for siding with them. They are the ones that Anders could have been had he not had the good fortune to run into a Warden-Commander; they are the ones who are most abused and subjugated and they are the ones that are fighting for their right to exist that Meredith has declared forfeit.
Modifié par Ryzaki, 30 mars 2011 - 10:02 .
SurelyForth wrote...
Ryzaki wrote...
No.
There are abominations as soon as you start fighting after deciding what to do with Anders with the girl who goes berserk. The abominations turn on you no matter who you side with. You are swarmed by desire demons and sloth demons no matter which side you choose. I feel like a fool siding with the mages having to fight both demons and templars.
Those are not Circle mages and you kill them no matter what side you go with.
I have said several times that Meredith keeping the templars in Kirkwall to fight the mages there would have been a Really Great Idea because thare are a bunch of apostates out and about and they really are a danger to everyone around them.
But they aren't they aren't the ones you are sentencing to death. The mages in the Circle are the ones that I am arguing for. They are the ones who have been imprisoned through this whole ordeal and who are so completely outside the circle (derp) of blame that it builds the entire argument Hawke has for siding with them. They are the ones that Anders could have been had he not had the good fortune to run into a Warden-Commander; they are the ones who are most abused and subjugated and they are the ones that are fighting for their right to exist that Meredith has declared forfeit.
Modifié par Torax, 30 mars 2011 - 10:06 .
SurelyForth wrote...
Ryzaki wrote...
No.
There are abominations as soon as you start fighting after deciding what to do with Anders with the girl who goes berserk. The abominations turn on you no matter who you side with. You are swarmed by desire demons and sloth demons no matter which side you choose. I feel like a fool siding with the mages having to fight both demons and templars.
Those are not Circle mages and you kill them no matter what side you go with.
I have said several times that Meredith keeping the templars in Kirkwall to fight the mages there would have been a Really Great Idea because thare are a bunch of apostates out and about and they really are a danger to everyone around them.
But they aren't they aren't the ones you are sentencing to death. The mages in the Circle are the ones that I am arguing for. They are the ones who have been imprisoned through this whole ordeal and who are so completely outside the circle (derp) of blame that it builds the entire argument Hawke has for siding with them. They are the ones that Anders could have been had he not had the good fortune to run into a Warden-Commander; they are the ones who are most abused and subjugated and they are the ones that are fighting for their right to exist that Meredith has declared forfeit.
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