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[ipgd]

ZombiePowered wrote...

Hawke has repeatedly unleashed ancient demons from their tightly bound prisons just because he was curious...

I don't know if I'd call Anders's junk ancient, but hey!

[Anna Rardin]

Dunizel wrote...

I still wonder why Cullen was sent in Kirkwall after the "incident" in Ferelden, it's not like it was a nice relaxing place for a templar. And he is the most sane guy in Kirkwall...figures...

I remember reading in the Codex something about how they restationed him to Kirkwall because of his ill-feelings towards the mages in the Fereldan Circle. They didn't want him doing anything irrational out of anger.

And also something about how Meredith promoted him because he was one of the few Templars that had seen what mages can do first hand (and understood her point).

[DeaHamlet]

ZombiePowered wrote...

DeaHamlet wrote...

You know, all this fussing and war and whatnots...
You just know Bioware is going to introduce some big bad thing next game that's going to be like "omg, war between mages/templars/chantry/qunari/imperium is all moot and irrelevant, we're all going to DIE".
And it's all going to be the warden's fault. And Hawke. You just watch.

And you think Anders is the bad guy. You just watch Bioware make YOUR characters the fault of all hell breaking loose.

I mean, how else can they break my heart? They've stomped on it and squeezed every tear possible between Anders and Fenris and all this mess.

Hawke has repeatedly unleashed ancient demons from their tightly bound prisons just because he was curious...

'Pride with reason' comes to mind.  Sarcastic Hawke was all like "I unleashed a demon, of course I did".  LOL Hawke is a menace, I tell ya.  I am so surprised neither Anders nor Fenris have tried to kill my blood mage.  Though she doesn't make deals with demons because she's that much of a control freak.  o.O 

[Anna Rardin]

Anna Rardin wrote...

Dunizel wrote...

I still wonder why Cullen was sent in Kirkwall after the "incident" in Ferelden, it's not like it was a nice relaxing place for a templar. And he is the most sane guy in Kirkwall...figures...

I remember reading in the Codex something about how they restationed him
to Kirkwall because of his ill-feelings towards the mages in the
Fereldan Circle. They didn't want him doing anything irrational out of
anger.

And also something about how Meredith promoted him because
he was one of the few Templars that had seen what mages can do first
hand (and understood her point).

Edit: lol, ipgd beat me to it XP

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

ipgd wrote...

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

ipgd wrote...

Purposeof-Flight wrote...

I felt
kind of bad for Meredith near the end. Where she says that she knows
all mages aren't the same, but she has to stay vigilant. She seems
almost scared of mages, and honestly, with the way the blood mages were
rampaging around Kirkwall, I would be too.

If you suck up to
the templars from the beginning of Act III, she mentions to you that her
sister was a mage who her family sheltered as an apostate before she
ended up becoming an abomination. So it's pretty personal for her.

Aw. Poor crazy lady.

Kinda like how you feel bad for Big Boss by the end of MGS3.XD

If by "feel bad for Big Boss" you mean "bawling pitifully because oh god the boss", not quite, but yeah, I have a liiiittle sympathy for Meredith

Dunizel wrote...

I still wonder why Cullen was sent in Kirkwall after the "incident" in Ferelden, it's not like it was a nice relaxing place for a templar. And he is the most sane guy in Kirkwall...figures...

IIRC, Greagoir sent him away because being around the same mages who were there when the Uldred disaster went down was affecting his judgment and he wasn't able to do his job properly.

I mean, I'd be mad at my country too if they screwed me over. Just like I'd have a biased against mages if my sister was one and turned into an abomination.

[DeaHamlet]

Did everyone really not pay any attention to what Leliana was saying about resolutionists and a whole bunch of mages coming in Kirkwall to incite **** and whatnots?

[Threeparts]

Ryzaki wrote...

I need to go abit farther to get more screenshots but I do recall being swarmed by rage demons as soon as I left Orsino behind. Where exactly did those come from? More apostates?

Not getting into the greater debate here, but due to the thin Veil in Kirkwall, demons do have a tendency to pop out of thin air. Like the one in the Harimann's basement: no one had to summon that.

It does make me wonder: after the destruction of the Chantry and the subsequent slaughter of templars and/or mages, just how much wider have we prised open the Hellmouth? I think I might just keep picking the mage team, just so I don't have to be viscount of a city right on top of a gateway to the Fade. 

[Ryzaki]

DeaHamlet wrote...

Did everyone really not pay any attention to what Leliana was saying about resolutionists and a whole bunch of mages coming in Kirkwall to incite **** and whatnots?

You do realize everyone doesn't have Seb right? Or use him? Or do his quests? 

[Ryzaki]

Threeparts wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

I need to go abit farther to get more screenshots but I do recall being swarmed by rage demons as soon as I left Orsino behind. Where exactly did those come from? More apostates?

Not getting into the greater debate here, but due to the thin Veil in Kirkwall, demons do have a tendency to pop out of thin air. Like the one in the Harimann's basement: no one had to summon that.

It does make me wonder: after the destruction of the Chantry and the subsequent slaughter of templars and/or mages, just how much wider have we prised open the Hellmouth? I think I might just keep picking the mage team, just so I don't have to be viscount of a city right on top of a gateway to the Fade. 

Ah Kirkwall.

Why would anyone build a city where the veil was so torn? People are crazy. 

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

DeaHamlet wrote...

Did everyone really not pay any attention to what Leliana was saying about resolutionists and a whole bunch of mages coming in Kirkwall to incite **** and whatnots?

I don't usually pay much attention to anything Leliana says.

[Threeparts]

Ryzaki wrote...

Ah Kirkwall.

Why would anyone build a city where the veil was so torn? People are crazy. 

Nah, the city came first and then the tearing from the slavery and the massive blood rituals that the Tevinters were conducting in the caves underground. Why anyone wants to stay there, though... 

[Ryzaki]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

DeaHamlet wrote...

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Also, after watching the Pro-Templar Anders youtube video, he seems to suggest he is committed to dying after what he's been through and what he is prepared to do (turn against the mages).

Again, its a unique turning point that I don't think people should be so quick to attack. RivalAnders doesn't know what he wants anymore, and if it is even his own feelings or Justice's. What he is aware of is that cornered mages DO turn to blood magic in order to survive, and is anyone really willing to support a cause when the only people who survived to support that cause are - in fact - maleficar and abominations?

Its just a thought. Maybe I'm just playing the devil's advocate. I've always prefered the least chosen paths or the 'WTF MAKES NO SENSE' decisions. But that is how I see it justified.

In the end, of the two groups, only the Templars realize they have gone too far and steady their hands. What is left of the mages are the ones people really wouldn't want to associate with anyways. Survival at any cost should never mean selling your soul, and Anders is very aware of that.

When you side with the templars you have no way of knowing where and when the templars will stop.  
And if Meredith hadn't been so obsessed as to turn against the champion and get killed, I do not think any mage, whether YOU spared them or not, would have been allowed to survive.  And you'd just sit there finding out after the fact what she just did.

Cullen and other templars have been hesitant in Year 7, and make their feelings known. I mean if CULLEN of all templars is actually questioning Meredith, that tells you something.

As far as Meredith goes, I do find her sympathetic. She went to extremes (But look at what Orsino did. They are both rather insane), but she had to see her family the people that she loved slaughtered pointlessly by an uncontrolled abomination who happened to be her sister. And if we've learned anything from Anders's short story that Hepler penned, those kind of rampages are violent, bloody, and unsettling.

Anders knows first hand what he is capable of. I can understand why he would be willing to lean towards the Templars after experiencing the full scope of what Justice will push him towards (Like... blowing up a chantry and dooming ALL MAGES in the process?)

Also if she would have succeeded in killing you, she also would have killed every single mage.
There are some sane templars, but there's also many who cherish the chance to abuse.  you meet them over and over again during the game and hear about them.  
Yes, metagame, we know that Meredith eventually ends up dead anyway and the champion becomes viscount blah blah.
But that's metagame.  In game, Hawke is choosing to continue Meredith's rain.  To let her stand unquestioned.
Whether for noble reasons to try to reduce the bloodshed, or because they believe the templars are just (in which case, again, Meredith would have forced Hawke to give her/himself in as an apostate)... Meredith is not challenged by the champion on the templar side.  Her reign is being supported by the champion.

Metagame or not, depending on your choices, you either have Sympathy for meredith or you don't. Point in case, its obvious Orsino in Year 7 is letting loose more than a few blood mages and helping with their cause - something that Meredith is wary of and accuses him of doing the entire time.

Yes, there are abusive templars. But for every abusive templar I came across... like... in one scene. Just one actually (From Act 2, when you are saving the Mage girl from Tranquility). Excluding Meredith. There were TEN TIMES more abusive mages. Anders claims that the templars are abusive, we only ever encounter a handful of them. Its all hearsay. However, on the other hand, we encounter so many demons and blood mages it boggles the mind.

And to think Anders so broken as to go along with this?  Imagine someone whose motives are that mages are bad, mages should either be put down or put in chains for the power they have... Imagine someone who is that pro-templar and they can STILL get Anders to side with them?  That's ****ed up.

Just because some people want to side with Meredith for semi-noble reasons (and knowing metagame wise that either way she dies)... does not mean that everyone's motives are the same.  And to think of Anders being by the side of someone SO against mages... it's sick.

Imagine if you did NOT know that Meredith would die either way?  If your pro-templar choice lead to Meredith's power remaining unquestioned, or even worse... other circles becoming as vicious on mages as the templars in Kirkwall?  I wonder how many would be pro-templar.

It's nice that people want options.  I prefer to be a tad pragmatic and think it's all down to... people are moaning they don't get a healer on the templar side.  LOL

While Kirkwall's circle is vicious, the other circles throughout Thedas
seem far more lax and good. Hell, most mages prefer them to the outside
world. But Anders / Justice, instead of attacking Kirkwall's circle, is
out to start a world wide revolution that will see the persecution of
mages everywhere who were not involved. No matter how he spins it, that
isn't justified. I feel more at peace knowing Anders realized he went
too far, and likely was pushed to the edge by Justice, and in order to
redeem himself, pay for his mistakes, and safeguard mages outside of
Kirkwall - he must use himself to prove that Templars are needed because
mages are more danger other people than not (Again. Look at what he
/did/ to the chantry). And if anyone should know that simple truth, Its Anders.

That is my feelings on the situation.

I think it can be totally justified, and I really look forward to investing in that playthrough. Had I known it was an option, I would have taken it. I'm sad its bugged.

Wait wait...is this in the codex? I miss this. 

[Torax]

Have to consider that Sebastian is a DLC and not everyone probably got the Signature Edition. I'm sure not every mage I've fought and killed was from the Circle. But I'm also quite sure that Orsino and many others were playing dirty. Just much like too much of the DA2, I can't do jack about it. All out of my hands. Like me always wanting Grace to die when I meet her but NO, not allowed.

[DeaHamlet]

Threeparts wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

I need to go abit farther to get more screenshots but I do recall being swarmed by rage demons as soon as I left Orsino behind. Where exactly did those come from? More apostates?

Not getting into the greater debate here, but due to the thin Veil in Kirkwall, demons do have a tendency to pop out of thin air. Like the one in the Harimann's basement: no one had to summon that.

It does make me wonder: after the destruction of the Chantry and the subsequent slaughter of templars and/or mages, just how much wider have we prised open the Hellmouth? I think I might just keep picking the mage team, just so I don't have to be viscount of a city right on top of a gateway to the Fade. 

Yo.  Nobody called forth demons along Sundermount and yet they were upon me endlessly!  Bastards.
I wonder why they even bother with mages and templars, them demons, since obviously they can pop up by themselves anyway!
And heaven help you if you read any books or scrolls... they will materialize on mass, over and over, like nobody's business.
It's way too easy in this game for demons.  Just way too easy.  Again, I don't know why they bother even trying to charm their way into mages' pants.  Even non-mages and templars seem to work for them.

[HolyJellyfish]

DeaHamlet wrote...

Did everyone really not pay any attention to what Leliana was saying about resolutionists and a whole bunch of mages coming in Kirkwall to incite **** and whatnots?

I remember that. Its one of the reasons I was pro-templar. It was to say 'Guyz.... You CAN'T DO THAT.'

Its not even a question of attacking just the circle. It becomes a question of saying that you are not going to side with mages going crazy in your city. If it was just about Kirkwall's circle, I may have sided with the mages. But this was a question of all mages.

[DeaHamlet]

Ryzaki wrote...

DeaHamlet wrote...

Did everyone really not pay any attention to what Leliana was saying about resolutionists and a whole bunch of mages coming in Kirkwall to incite **** and whatnots?

You do realize everyone doesn't have Seb right? Or use him? Or do his quests? 

Sadly, I realize now.  It would help to understand where all them blood mages on the streets are coming from.
That Leliana business should not have been DLC.  It's like... an integral part.  It's when you find out the Divine is considering doing an exiled march against all of Kirkwall.
The **** REALLY seems ****tier after doing Seb's quests.  And we all know how I hate Seb.  But his missions do give much insight.

[YamiSnuffles]

thenyxie wrote...

More von Sparklefingers, please!

Ask and ye shall receive. Hansel von Sparklefingers lounges with his brooding rival, Fenris. Oh, and Twix. Can't forget the twix.

[Ryzaki]

Torax wrote...

Have to consider that Sebastian is a DLC and not everyone probably got the Signature Edition. I'm sure not every mage I've fought and killed was from the Circle. But I'm also quite sure that Orsino and many others were playing dirty. Just much like too much of the DA2, I can't do jack about it. All out of my hands. Like me always wanting Grace to die when I meet her but NO, not allowed.

*pulls hair*

I HATE how she has plotshield. 

HAAAAATE

I can't even say she was in there consorting with a bloodmage. Noooo. Bah. Bah I say. 

And she's such an ungrateful bastard. 

[Threeparts]

Oh, Anders. I love it when you get your self-righteousness on.

[Ryzaki]

DeaHamlet wrote...
Sadly, I realize now.  It would help to understand where all them blood mages on the streets are coming from.
That Leliana business should not have been DLC.  It's like... an integral part.  It's when you find out the Divine is considering doing an exiled march against all of Kirkwall.
The **** REALLY seems ****tier after doing Seb's quests.  And we all know how I hate Seb.  But his missions do give much insight.

Well thanks for the insight. I thought they were rogue apostates from the circle. Now that I know they're not even from Kirkwall to begin with...hm. 

Divine does an exiled march against everything. I mean really. They need to learn how to suck it up. Everyone isn't going to jump at their command. 

Orzammar doesn't like the Chantry in their kingdom? "EXALTED MARCH" Ugh. Go kick rocks. 

I wish there was a way to tear down the chantry without seeming like I support rogue mages. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 30 mars 2011 - 10:41 .

[DeaHamlet]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

DeaHamlet wrote...

Did everyone really not pay any attention to what Leliana was saying about resolutionists and a whole bunch of mages coming in Kirkwall to incite **** and whatnots?

I remember that. Its one of the reasons I was pro-templar. It was to say 'Guyz.... You CAN'T DO THAT.'

Its not even a question of attacking just the circle. It becomes a question of saying that you are not going to side with mages going crazy in your city. If it was just about Kirkwall's circle, I may have sided with the mages. But this was a question of all mages.

That and Meredith's speech about she could not stay her hand b/c the people want vengeance... made me feel just a smidgen LESS dirty during my templar siding playthrough.  Where I was the whole game like "COME ON people, just get along, you're just making things worse and I ALWAYS have to clean up after you.  I hate you all, SIGH", lol.  The clip with the templars attacking the mages made me sick to my stomach.

And completely off-topic... I wish I had the option to kill Grace from the beginning.  That woman is such a hateful ****.  If you helped her escape, even agreeing to kill Thrask, she's in the gallows ****ing about how it was the champion's fault they got caught.
I wanted to kill her right then and there.  Then she kidnapped my sibling and Fenris and she died a horrid death being exploded into little pieces every time.  She's ARG.

EDIT: Apparently the paper I should be writing is on my mind and I wrote 'sibilant' instead of 'sibling'.  My guilt is catching up with me.

Modifié par DeaHamlet, 30 mars 2011 - 10:45 .

[HolyJellyfish]

Ryzaki wrote...

HolyJellyfish wrote...

While Kirkwall's circle is vicious, the other circles throughout Thedas
seem far more lax and good. Hell, most mages prefer them to the outside
world. But Anders / Justice, instead of attacking Kirkwall's circle, is
out to start a world wide revolution that will see the persecution of
mages everywhere who were not involved. No matter how he spins it, that
isn't justified. I feel more at peace knowing Anders realized he went
too far, and likely was pushed to the edge by Justice, and in order to
redeem himself, pay for his mistakes, and safeguard mages outside of
Kirkwall - he must use himself to prove that Templars are needed because
mages are more danger other people than not (Again. Look at what he
/did/ to the chantry). And if anyone should know that simple truth, Its Anders.

That is my feelings on the situation.

I think it can be totally justified, and I really look forward to investing in that playthrough. Had I known it was an option, I would have taken it. I'm sad its bugged.

Wait wait...is this in the codex? I miss this. 

Anders has a quote in DA2 where he talks about how most of the mages in Ferelden's circle were too busy kissing eachother to really pay attention to much else.

Wynne supports the circle.

Then there was the mage in Witch hunt who hated going outside, and prefered busying himself with books.

From what I understand, the circles outside Kirkwall are actually pretty relaxed. They have their own governments, they run things in a way comfortable to the mages (with checks by the Templars), and the only mages that outright despite the circle are those who are unable to go through the Harrowing (since it means Tranquility, but the Dalish Keeper suggests Tranquility is not limited to the Circles. It is a fail safe that exists even among the Dalish) or secretly practice blood magic. Or, if you are Anders, and really would rather sit back and shoot lightning at fools.

Kirkwall is just a VERY extreme case. And I'm not surprised, since the city was once a slave port controlled by mages. tensions towards magic are definitely going to be higher. Reminders are all over the city of what can happen if Magic isn't checked.

Its not that I don't trust mages. But the game makes it very clear that PEOPLE are not to be trusted. Doesn't matter their intentions (Merrill, etc.) - to me, mages are just people with a lot of power at their hands.

[Ryzaki]

@HollyJellyfish: No I meant the segement I bolded. About Meredith's abomination sister.

Though Fereldan...I miss Fereldan. Where people were mostly sane. 

Its not that I don't trust mages. But the game makes it very clear that PEOPLE are not to be trusted. Doesn't matter their intentions (Merrill, etc.) - to me, mages are just people with a lot of power at their hands.

And I agree with this. 

It's too easy to rival little Merrill. <3

Modifié par Ryzaki, 30 mars 2011 - 10:45 .

[DeaHamlet]

Ryzaki wrote...

DeaHamlet wrote...
Sadly, I realize now.  It would help to understand where all them blood mages on the streets are coming from.
That Leliana business should not have been DLC.  It's like... an integral part.  It's when you find out the Divine is considering doing an exiled march against all of Kirkwall.
The **** REALLY seems ****tier after doing Seb's quests.  And we all know how I hate Seb.  But his missions do give much insight.

Well thanks for the insight. I thought they were rogue apostates from the circle. Now that I know they're not even from Kirkwall to begin with...hm. 

Divine does an exiled march against everything. I mean really. They need to learn how to suck it up. Everyone isn't going to jump at their command. 

Orzammar doesn't like the Chantry in their kingdom? "EXALTED MARCH" Ugh. Go kick rocks. 

I wish there was a way to tear down the chantry without seeming like I support rogue mages. 

Yeah, the Divine needs to get a sense of humor or something.
This game doesn't wanna give you any options that you feel 100% good about.  It's that grey on grey business.

[elusivemelody]

ipgd wrote...

ZombiePowered wrote...

Hawke has repeatedly unleashed ancient demons from their tightly bound prisons just because he was curious...

I don't know if I'd call Anders's junk ancient, but hey!

Okay, just had to say, this made me LOL