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[Torax]

DeaHamlet wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

DeaHamlet wrote...

Did everyone really not pay any attention to what Leliana was saying about resolutionists and a whole bunch of mages coming in Kirkwall to incite **** and whatnots?

You do realize everyone doesn't have Seb right? Or use him? Or do his quests? 

Sadly, I realize now.  It would help to understand where all them blood mages on the streets are coming from.
That Leliana business should not have been DLC.  It's like... an integral part.  It's when you find out the Divine is considering doing an exiled march against all of Kirkwall.
The **** REALLY seems ****tier after doing Seb's quests.  And we all know how I hate Seb.  But his missions do give much insight.

Sebastian is there to be the player's insight into the Chantry. I wouldn't really count petrice as that. Justice just wants the chantry gone. Anders seems to want Elthina to just step in which she won't. Fenris seems like a psuedo way to give sympathy to Templar. Like if you combined Aveline and Fenris together you'd get a templar. But Sebastian is the link of showing more to do with Elthina and how pinned she is. Hate her or not. She doesn't want the Divine to march. Sebastian states even at one point that Meredith no longer takes the Chantry's Advice. Plus his Act 2 mission where you find the ancient tunnels that are probably under ground all over the city.

Here is the dialogue in Act 3 between Aveline and Sebastian.

Sebastian: Do you have many dealings with the knight-commander?
Aveline: Please don't start with that. I'm not a templar. I'm the captain of the guard.
Aveline: We arrest burglars. The knight-commander never gives us a thought.
Sebastian: Grand Cleric Elthina is worried about her. She's stopped taking the Chantry's advice.
Aveline: Her jobs not easy. Certain... forces in the city are allied against her.

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

Ryzaki wrote...

DeaHamlet wrote...
Sadly, I realize now.  It would help to understand where all them blood mages on the streets are coming from.
That Leliana business should not have been DLC.  It's like... an integral part.  It's when you find out the Divine is considering doing an exiled march against all of Kirkwall.
The **** REALLY seems ****tier after doing Seb's quests.  And we all know how I hate Seb.  But his missions do give much insight.

Well thanks for the insight. I thought they were rogue apostates from the circle. Now that I know they're not even from Kirkwall to begin with...hm. 

Divine does an exiled march against everything. I mean really. They need to learn how to suck it up. Everyone isn't going to jump at their command. 

Orzammar doesn't like the Chantry in their kingdom? "EXALTED MARCH" Ugh. Go kick rocks. 

I wish there was a way to tear down the chantry without seeming like I support rogue mages. 

Disrupting a religious institution is never that easy.XD

[Ashwraith]

DeaHamlet wrote...

I wanted to kill her right then and there.  Then she kidnapped my sibilant and Fenris and she died a horrid death being exploded into little pieces every time.

...Well, I've never heard that explanation for a speech impediment before. o.o
Holding your sibilants hostage. Hell of a thing.

Modifié par Ashwraith, 30 mars 2011 - 10:49 .

[DeaHamlet]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

HolyJellyfish wrote...

While Kirkwall's circle is vicious, the other circles throughout Thedas
seem far more lax and good. Hell, most mages prefer them to the outside
world. But Anders / Justice, instead of attacking Kirkwall's circle, is
out to start a world wide revolution that will see the persecution of
mages everywhere who were not involved. No matter how he spins it, that
isn't justified. I feel more at peace knowing Anders realized he went
too far, and likely was pushed to the edge by Justice, and in order to
redeem himself, pay for his mistakes, and safeguard mages outside of
Kirkwall - he must use himself to prove that Templars are needed because
mages are more danger other people than not (Again. Look at what he
/did/ to the chantry). And if anyone should know that simple truth, Its Anders.

That is my feelings on the situation.

I think it can be totally justified, and I really look forward to investing in that playthrough. Had I known it was an option, I would have taken it. I'm sad its bugged.

Wait wait...is this in the codex? I miss this. 

Anders has a quote in DA2 where he talks about how most of the mages in Ferelden's circle were too busy kissing eachother to really pay attention to much else.

Wynne supports the circle.

Then there was the mage in Witch hunt who hated going outside, and prefered busying himself with books.

From what I understand, the circles outside Kirkwall are actually pretty relaxed. They have their own governments, they run things in a way comfortable to the mages (with checks by the Templars), and the only mages that outright despite the circle are those who are unable to go through the Harrowing (since it means Tranquility, but the Dalish Keeper suggests Tranquility is not limited to the Circles. It is a fail safe that exists even among the Dalish) or secretly practice blood magic. Or, if you are Anders, and really would rather sit back and shoot lightning at fools.

Kirkwall is just a VERY extreme case. And I'm not surprised, since the city was once a slave port controlled by mages. tensions towards magic are definitely going to be higher. Reminders are all over the city of what can happen if Magic isn't checked.

Its not that I don't trust mages. But the game makes it very clear that PEOPLE are not to be trusted. Doesn't matter their intentions (Merrill, etc.) - to me, mages are just people with a lot of power at their hands.

Actually, there is hints here and there... talks about templars who push mages into their harrowing early so they fail, because they take secret pleasure in killing them.
Templars decide when a mage should go through the harrowing.
And just because a prison is not abusive all the time (remember Anders talking about how he was lucky and was not raped or abused, but that it happens often enough)... doesn't mean it's right.  Also, remember the comment about how many mages die at their own hand aka suicide? And that the most common way to die as a mage is by your own hand?
No, I can't see how these people are happy in the circle... some are content, some can see no way out... etc
Remember what Fenris says about why he never thought the leave? That it's easy for someone who was not a slave to question why slaves don't leave... that they don't think they have options.

Fenris and Anders have such wonderful interesting conversations on these topics.  Too bad they can't stop ARG-ing at eachother long enough to listen *sigh*.

[Purposeof-Flight]

Torax wrote...

Have to consider that Sebastian is a DLC and not everyone probably got the Signature Edition. I'm sure not every mage I've fought and killed was from the Circle. But I'm also quite sure that Orsino and many others were playing dirty. Just much like too much of the DA2, I can't do jack about it. All out of my hands. Like me always wanting Grace to die when I meet her but NO, not allowed.

I got the signature edition, because I put it on hold back in January.
And I STILL didn't use Sebastian, or do his quests, for the first two playthroughs.

[HolyJellyfish]

Ryzaki wrote...

@HollyJellyfish: No I meant the segement I bolded. About Meredith's abomination sister.

Though Fereldan...I miss Fereldan. Where people were mostly sane. 

Ah! Its in the game. Its really really heartbreaking, and I totally sympathized with Meredith after this revelation. Its why she's so hard on mages.

From Dragon Age Wiki -

If you side with Meredith at the
start of Act III and help the Templars during On The Loose, when you
start the quest Best Served Cold, you can question Meredith during
dialogue and she will explain why she has such a hatred for mages: When
Meredith was younger, her sister developed magical talents but her
family decided to shield her from the Chantry. One day, Meredith's
sister was possessed by a demon, turned into an abomination and killed
the rest of her family save for Meredith, who survived. The Templars
eventually slew her sister, but not before the Abomination killed 70
villagers. This experience led to Meredith's harsh view on magic and why
mages must be treated as people with a curse.

[DeaHamlet]

Ashwraith wrote...

DeaHamlet wrote...

I wanted to kill her right then and there.  Then she kidnapped my sibilant and Fenris and she died a horrid death being exploded into little pieces every time.

...Well, I've never heard that explanation for a speech impediment before. o.o
Holding your sibilants hostage. Hell of a thing.

I'm a linguist.  Who should be editing her research paper on SIBILANTS.
My guilty conscience is coming through when I'm typing fast.

[Miri1984]

Ryzaki wrote...

Miri1984 wrote...

@Ryzaki He doesn't see it that way until the end, when you convince him of that through your arguments.

ETA and also, Fenris isn't the one actively putting the mages into the circle to live as slaves, which is basically what you're asking Anders to do if he sides with the templars.

Actually he is very much aware of it. He just decides to act on faith with Hawke. He and Anders even have a banter discussing it. "They are slaves! You should want to help them!" "I don't." 

And no actually you're not. You're asking Anders to purge the circle. I.E. kill all the mages. Not enslave anyone. And seeing as most of the mages are turning to bloodmagic/abominations I see it being very much defense. 

YamiSnuffles wrote...

Yes, and when he finally gets that, he fights against it.

Nope. When Hawke says it he fights against it because he trusts Hawke. Anders mentions th same thing to him and he doesn't give a hoot. 

You're missing my point. I said that. Hawke convinces himself that the circle is unjust and he fights on your side against the Templars. And this isn't the point of the argument in any case. We're drawing parallels to each character's crisis points. Fenris hates slavery. Anders hates the circle and wants to free the mages. Asking Anders to side with the Templars is equivalent to asking Fenris to condone slavery.

[Ryzaki]

HolyJellyfish wrote...
Ah! Its in the game. Its really really heartbreaking, and I totally sympathized with Meredith after this revelation. Its why she's so hard on mages.

From Dragon Age Wiki -

If you side with Meredith at the
start of Act III and help the Templars during On The Loose, when you
start the quest Best Served Cold, you can question Meredith during
dialogue and she will explain why she has such a hatred for mages: When
Meredith was younger, her sister developed magical talents but her
family decided to shield her from the Chantry. One day, Meredith's
sister was possessed by a demon, turned into an abomination and killed
the rest of her family save for Meredith, who survived. The Templars
eventually slew her sister, but not before the Abomination killed 70
villagers. This experience led to Meredith's harsh view on magic and why
mages must be treated as people with a curse.

That's horrible.  And now her "I hate to do this but I have to" makes a lot more sense than just insanity. Poor thing. 

I'm guess they weren't lucky enough to know another mage who could teach Meredith's sister how to resist demons. 

And yeah that would show why Circles are necessary (not as abusive and restrictive but still necessary). I now feel like crap and will not look at her debate with Anders the same way again. 

[ipgd]

Ryzaki wrote...

@HollyJellyfish: No I meant the segement I bolded. About Meredith's abomination sister.

Though Fereldan...I miss Fereldan. Where people were mostly sane. 

Its not that I don't trust mages. But the game makes it very clear that PEOPLE are not to be trusted. Doesn't matter their intentions (Merrill, etc.) - to me, mages are just people with a lot of power at their hands.

And I agree with this. 

It's too easy to rival little Merrill. <3

You only get that if you publically support Meredith at the beginning of Act III, I think. I got it on my pro-templar playthrough when I didn't on my pro-mage one, anyway.

[DeaHamlet]

Off topic again... I love how some people make a deal with Topor for the attribute points and then are so pro-templar. It's a total LOL for me.

[AtreiyaN7]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

I actually said that Anders was mostly about his personal freedom in Awakening. I'm not arguing with that. He does allude to the fact that he thinks mages are treated unfairly, but I agree that Justice is the main reason he's fighting for more than just his own freedom. That's why I said I understand the rivalry path and arguing against him having such an extreme stance against the Circle.

I will avoid arguing on Izzy since she didn't stay in the one playthrough I have finished so far. I think my argument with her is that her self preservation seems a slightly different motivation than fighting against something bigger than herself. As to Fenris, I never said he (or anyone else) couldn't have more than one core belief. I just see it as, he hates mages because he thinks every one of them is liable to turn into a Magister/slaver. His problem, as I saw it, was a general fear that every mage was power hungry and looking for an opportunity to control others. So every mage is a potential slaver to him. Thus, while he is against mages he is even more strongly opposed to slavery. He, like everyone in the world, has lots of beliefs. I just think slavery is the most important one to him. Just like I think freedom is the most important thing to Anders (whether his own in Awakening or all mages in 2).

Woops -  I shall smack myself in the forehead for being redundant with the Anders section very shortly (going to blame it on lack of sleep and general discombobulation - hehe)! Back to tzzy though, while she stayed away in my first playthrough, she returned with the book in my second playthrough. I think Isabela essentially takes the route of sacrificing the many for the one in the first playthrough (screw kirkwall in favor of saving her own skin) because Hawke #1 had almost no interaction with her.

However, in the second playthrough, she shifts gears and takes the path of sacrificing the one for the many, essentially (comes back to help save Kirkwall at great personal risk). Presumably, this is because Hawke #2 engaged with her more and brought her along on quests. Without Hawke #2's influence shaping Isabbela's beliefs (to an extent), she would have run off again and never come back like she did with Hawke #1.

With Fenris, I can see your point about his fears. Trying to get back (vagely) to one of the original points I was trying to make: I think Hawke's influence is such that he/she can manipulate/influence his/her companions into doing things that run counter to their "normal" behavior. In Fenris's case, that amounts to pushing his anti-slavery button to get him to turn against the templars and return to your side (if you take the pro-mage route). I don't believe that any of them suddenly lose their sense of self or their own beliefs - only that you can influence them to do things that seem contrary to at least one of their core belief(s).

And yes, basically that amounts to me feeling that the Anders rivalmance ending is not out of left field or all that weird. To become that broken, to stop trusting yourself and your motivations, etc. etc....I can see things playing out the way that they did. Oh well, back to our regularly scheduled Anders love-fest - whee! Or maybe that should be a "squee!"

[Torax]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

@HollyJellyfish: No I meant the segement I bolded. About Meredith's abomination sister.

Though Fereldan...I miss Fereldan. Where people were mostly sane. 

Ah! Its in the game. Its really really heartbreaking, and I totally sympathized with Meredith after this revelation. Its why she's so hard on mages.

From Dragon Age Wiki -

If you side with Meredith at the
start of Act III and help the Templars during On The Loose, when you
start the quest Best Served Cold, you can question Meredith during
dialogue and she will explain why she has such a hatred for mages: When
Meredith was younger, her sister developed magical talents but her
family decided to shield her from the Chantry. One day, Meredith's
sister was possessed by a demon, turned into an abomination and killed
the rest of her family save for Meredith, who survived. The Templars
eventually slew her sister, but not before the Abomination killed 70
villagers. This experience led to Meredith's harsh view on magic and why
mages must be treated as people with a curse.

Here is I think the flaw to her. While she was strong enough to probably resist some of the Idol. Maybe the Idol fed on the part about power. She wanted to protect the city but gets violent when Orsino was just saying to appoint a Viscount instead of more consolidation of power. Shocker there considering the look she was gave when she called you the Champion. Regreted it later I'm sure. She coudln't appoint a Viscount cause the Nobles would have probably demanded Hawke who would probably have had more respect and power than her after that. So even if you side with her she'll call you a traitor.

[elusivemelody]

[/quote]

Ah! Its in the game. Its really really heartbreaking, and I totally sympathized with Meredith after this revelation. Its why she's so hard on mages.

From Dragon Age Wiki -

If you side with Meredith at the
start of Act III and help the Templars during On The Loose, when you
start the quest Best Served Cold, you can question Meredith during
dialogue and she will explain why she has such a hatred for mages: When
Meredith was younger, her sister developed magical talents but her
family decided to shield her from the Chantry. One day, Meredith's
sister was possessed by a demon, turned into an abomination and killed
the rest of her family save for Meredith, who survived. The Templars
eventually slew her sister, but not before the Abomination killed 70
villagers. This experience led to Meredith's harsh view on magic and why
mages must be treated as people with a curse.
[/quote]

I think I may have some newfound respect for Meredith after reading this.

[Halinu]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

@HollyJellyfish: No I meant the segement I bolded. About Meredith's abomination sister.

Though Fereldan...I miss Fereldan. Where people were mostly sane. 

Ah! Its in the game. Its really really heartbreaking, and I totally sympathized with Meredith after this revelation. Its why she's so hard on mages.

From Dragon Age Wiki -

If you side with Meredith at the
start of Act III and help the Templars during On The Loose, when you
start the quest Best Served Cold, you can question Meredith during
dialogue and she will explain why she has such a hatred for mages: When
Meredith was younger, her sister developed magical talents but her
family decided to shield her from the Chantry. One day, Meredith's
sister was possessed by a demon, turned into an abomination and killed
the rest of her family save for Meredith, who survived. The Templars
eventually slew her sister, but not before the Abomination killed 70
villagers. This experience led to Meredith's harsh view on magic and why
mages must be treated as people with a curse.

NOOOOOOOOOOOO.  That is pretty much almost EXACTLY the backstory to my DA RP character.  GODDAMNIT.  Well, very, very, very, very similar to the point of being TOO SIMILAR.  ARGH.  Thank you for pointing this out to me, as I have yet to side with the Templars at the beginning of Act III and never would have known.

UGH.

[Frishmet]

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

DeaHamlet wrote...
Sadly, I realize now.  It would help to understand where all them blood mages on the streets are coming from.
That Leliana business should not have been DLC.  It's like... an integral part.  It's when you find out the Divine is considering doing an exiled march against all of Kirkwall.
The **** REALLY seems ****tier after doing Seb's quests.  And we all know how I hate Seb.  But his missions do give much insight.

Well thanks for the insight. I thought they were rogue apostates from the circle. Now that I know they're not even from Kirkwall to begin with...hm. 

Divine does an exiled march against everything. I mean really. They need to learn how to suck it up. Everyone isn't going to jump at their command. 

Orzammar doesn't like the Chantry in their kingdom? "EXALTED MARCH" Ugh. Go kick rocks. 

I wish there was a way to tear down the chantry without seeming like I support rogue mages. 

Disrupting a religious institution is never that easy.XD

The fact that the institutions (chantry, templars) that keep control of mages are religious in nature is a huge part of the problem. It's not enough that they are protecting the public from danger.... They can't not be oppressive if they believe they have been given a mission from the maker to keep reign over the cursed mages with inherently evil power.  Even if they feel sorry for the individuals, they are still thought of as evil - not just potentially dangerous.  Power certainly can corrupt but so does beleving your authority is given by divine right.

[Ryzaki]

Miri1984 wrote...
You're missing my point. I said that. Hawke convinces himself that the circle is unjust and he fights on your side against the Templars. And this isn't the point of the argument in any case. We're drawing parallels to each character's crisis points. Fenris hates slavery. Anders hates the circle and wants to free the mages. Asking Anders to side with the Templars is equivalent to asking Fenris to condone slavery.

Fenris hatred of slavery is very much tied in with the Magisters. It's not just slavery on its own. It's slavery and the abuse by the magisters. He constantly refers to disgust with magic and how it's open to abuse. How magic has "stained" him. His venom for abuses with magic by free mages is far more than for slavery. 

As for asking Fenris to condone slavery no. But I managed to enslave someone right infront of him with him reacting in disgust but still being friends with my character. (And still romancing them). 

That said I do see your point.  It is something he would venomently be against doing and would offend core principles. Doesn't make it impossible to occur. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 30 mars 2011 - 11:03 .

[AtreiyaN7]

DeaHamlet wrote...

Did everyone really not pay any attention to what Leliana was saying about resolutionists and a whole bunch of mages coming in Kirkwall to incite **** and whatnots?

Hah, just had the meeting with Sister Nightingale the other day again, so yes, the Resolutionists are in my memory banks atm. It did sound to me as if they were the ones who sort of set things in motion in Kirkwall or at least helped pushed them along. I assumed that Anders somehow hooked up with the Resolutionists at some point and/or was partially inspired by them.

[Ninche]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

@HollyJellyfish: No I meant the segement I bolded. About Meredith's abomination sister.

Though Fereldan...I miss Fereldan. Where people were mostly sane. 

Ah! Its in the game. Its really really heartbreaking, and I totally sympathized with Meredith after this revelation. Its why she's so hard on mages.

From Dragon Age Wiki -

If you side with Meredith at the
start of Act III and help the Templars during On The Loose, when you
start the quest Best Served Cold, you can question Meredith during
dialogue and she will explain why she has such a hatred for mages: When
Meredith was younger, her sister developed magical talents but her
family decided to shield her from the Chantry. One day, Meredith's
sister was possessed by a demon, turned into an abomination and killed
the rest of her family save for Meredith, who survived. The Templars
eventually slew her sister, but not before the Abomination killed 70
villagers. This experience led to Meredith's harsh view on magic and why
mages must be treated as people with a curse.

If you can sympathise with Meredith for loosing her family to a mage you can surely sympathise with mages who get taken away from their families, repeatedly abused and kept locked away? Anders himself was kept locked up by himself for a YEAR. I can see where his hatred for templars comes from. Both Anders and Meredith are cases of a system that obviously doesn't work.  Meredith's parents wouldn't hesitate to give up her sister for training if it didn't mean they were to never see her again and end up shamed and disliked by other people for having magic in their family. It's a vicious circle, it's a repetitive pattern that does not serve the function it is meant to serve. It's time to break it and try something new. 

Modifié par Ninche, 30 mars 2011 - 11:03 .

[Ryzaki]

DeaHamlet wrote...

Off topic again... I love how some people make a deal with Topor for the attribute points and then are so pro-templar. It's a total LOL for me.

I never make that deal with Topor. (Though I pretend to go along with it because him calling Justice a stuck up prig is priceless). 

[HolyJellyfish]

Ryzaki wrote...

That's horrible.  And now her "I hate to do this but I have to" makes a lot more sense than just insanity. Poor thing. 

I'm guess they weren't lucky enough to know another mage who could teach Meredith's sister how to resist demons. 

And yeah that would show why Circles are necessary (not as abusive and restrictive but still necessary). I now feel like crap and will not look at her debate with Anders the same way again. 

Meredith is incredibly sympathetic. She goes to extremes because she sees no other way around them.

The Idol may have warped her head, and I know that Kirkwall accuses Meredith of going on a power-binge, but I only see her doing that because she feels she is the only person who has seen the evils of magic first hand and really truly desires to protect innocent people from it.

Orsino has his thing, but really, as far as I'm concerned, the game is more Meredith vs Anders - Templar Commander vs Apostate Revolutionist. Orsino feels so brushed aside compared to those two.

[AtreiyaN7]

Elusive Melody wrote...

I think I may have some newfound respect for Meredith after reading this.

Ouch - well that certainly explains her strictness with the mages (that things became worse later was presumably related to the lyrium idol).

EDIT: finally straightened that quote out!

Modifié par AtreiyaN7, 30 mars 2011 - 11:05 .

[DeaHamlet]

Frishmet wrote...

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

DeaHamlet wrote...
Sadly, I realize now.  It would help to understand where all them blood mages on the streets are coming from.
That Leliana business should not have been DLC.  It's like... an integral part.  It's when you find out the Divine is considering doing an exiled march against all of Kirkwall.
The **** REALLY seems ****tier after doing Seb's quests.  And we all know how I hate Seb.  But his missions do give much insight.

Well thanks for the insight. I thought they were rogue apostates from the circle. Now that I know they're not even from Kirkwall to begin with...hm. 

Divine does an exiled march against everything. I mean really. They need to learn how to suck it up. Everyone isn't going to jump at their command. 

Orzammar doesn't like the Chantry in their kingdom? "EXALTED MARCH" Ugh. Go kick rocks. 

I wish there was a way to tear down the chantry without seeming like I support rogue mages. 

Disrupting a religious institution is never that easy.XD

The fact that the institutions (chantry, templars) that keep control of mages are religious in nature is a huge part of the problem. It's not enough that they are protecting the public from danger.... They can't not be oppressive if they believe they have been given a mission from the maker to keep reign over the cursed mages with inherently evil power.  Even if they feel sorry for the individuals, they are still thought of as evil - not just potentially dangerous.  Power certainly can corrupt but so does beleving your authority is given by divine right.

That is my biggest issue... the fact that they see all mages as corrupt just by being mages.
They start off from a place of mistrust and cite their dogma as proof. 

[Ryzaki]

ipgd wrote...
You only get that if you publically support Meredith at the beginning of Act III, I think. I got it on my pro-templar playthrough when I didn't on my pro-mage one, anyway.

Aw. I usually don't side with either because my Hawke thinks they're both bonkers. 

[DeaHamlet]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

DeaHamlet wrote...

Did everyone really not pay any attention to what Leliana was saying about resolutionists and a whole bunch of mages coming in Kirkwall to incite **** and whatnots?

Hah, just had the meeting with Sister Nightingale the other day again, so yes, the Resolutionists are in my memory banks atm. It did sound to me as if they were the ones who sort of set things in motion in Kirkwall or at least helped pushed them along. I assumed that Anders somehow hooked up with the Resolutionists at some point and/or was partially inspired by them.

I highly doubt it.  They are often blood mages and Anders has a seething hate for blood mages as see in the fact that despite Merrill being so cute and like a kicked dog, he still persists on being angry and mean to her.
He would not work with blood mages.
And he also says, if he's with you... "cause mages on their own couldn't possibly come to the desire for freedom" or something along those lines.