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[DeaHamlet]

Ninche wrote...

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

@HollyJellyfish: No I meant the segement I bolded. About Meredith's abomination sister.

Though Fereldan...I miss Fereldan. Where people were mostly sane. 

Ah! Its in the game. Its really really heartbreaking, and I totally sympathized with Meredith after this revelation. Its why she's so hard on mages.

From Dragon Age Wiki -

If you side with Meredith at the
start of Act III and help the Templars during On The Loose, when you
start the quest Best Served Cold, you can question Meredith during
dialogue and she will explain why she has such a hatred for mages: When
Meredith was younger, her sister developed magical talents but her
family decided to shield her from the Chantry. One day, Meredith's
sister was possessed by a demon, turned into an abomination and killed
the rest of her family save for Meredith, who survived. The Templars
eventually slew her sister, but not before the Abomination killed 70
villagers. This experience led to Meredith's harsh view on magic and why
mages must be treated as people with a curse.

If you can sympathise with Meredith for loosing her family to a mage you can surely sympathise with mages who get taken away from their families, repeatedly abused and kept locked away? Anders himself was kept locked up by himself for a YEAR. I can see where his hatred for templars comes from. Both Anders and Meredith are cases of a system that obviously doesn't work.  Meredith's parents wouldn't hesitate to give up her sister for training if it didn't mean they were to never see her again and end up shamed and disliked by other people for having magic in their family. It's a vicious circle, it's a repetitive pattern that does not serve the function it is meant to serve. It's time to break it and try something new. 

This.

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

Frishmet wrote...

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

DeaHamlet wrote...
Sadly, I realize now.  It would help to understand where all them blood mages on the streets are coming from.
That Leliana business should not have been DLC.  It's like... an integral part.  It's when you find out the Divine is considering doing an exiled march against all of Kirkwall.
The **** REALLY seems ****tier after doing Seb's quests.  And we all know how I hate Seb.  But his missions do give much insight.

Well thanks for the insight. I thought they were rogue apostates from the circle. Now that I know they're not even from Kirkwall to begin with...hm. 

Divine does an exiled march against everything. I mean really. They need to learn how to suck it up. Everyone isn't going to jump at their command. 

Orzammar doesn't like the Chantry in their kingdom? "EXALTED MARCH" Ugh. Go kick rocks. 

I wish there was a way to tear down the chantry without seeming like I support rogue mages. 

Disrupting a religious institution is never that easy.XD

The fact that the institutions (chantry, templars) that keep control of mages are religious in nature is a huge part of the problem. It's not enough that they are protecting the public from danger.... They can't not be oppressive if they believe they have been given a mission from the maker to keep reign over the cursed mages with inherently evil power.  Even if they feel sorry for the individuals, they are still thought of as evil - not just potentially dangerous.  Power certainly can corrupt but so does beleving your authority is given by divine right.

And people say this doesn't parallel life.:innocent:

[Ryzaki]

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

Disrupting a religious institution is never that easy.XD

Alas. I'd turn to the Qunari but I think they're worse. D: 

Maybe if they didn't collar their mages the way they do I might be on their side. But the tongue cutting out? Not cool. 

And strying to kill me because he dared speak to me? Kick rocks Qunari. <_< I was so irritated when they still wanted to kill me after I handed him over. What the hell was that for? 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 30 mars 2011 - 11:09 .

[HolyJellyfish]

Ninche wrote...


If you can sympathise with Meredith for loosing her family to a mage you can surely sympathise with mages who get taken away from their families, repeatedly abused and kept locked away? Anders himself was kept locked up by himself for a YEAR. I can see where his hatred for templars comes from. Both Anders and Meredith are cases of a system that obviously doesn't work.  Meredith's parents wouldn't hesitate to give up her sister for training if it didn't mean they were to never see her again and end up shamed and disliked by other people for having magic in their family. It's a vicious circle, it's a repetitive pattern that does not serve the function it is meant to serve. It's time to break it and try something new. 

It becomes a question of individual rights versus the rights of many.

Do you safeguard the freedoms of one person at the risk of many lives, or do you keep them chained because they have the potential to kill?

One mage compared to seventy people is a big number.

I agree that the Chantry needs to be reformed, that the circle needs to be reformed, but Anders is suggesting the Circle needs to be completely abolished and in many ways is suggesting the Chantry should be destroyed as well. I disagree with that. He isn't looking at the larger picture, which is that the Qunari in the north are paying close attention to Thedas and looking for any weakness that may justify swarming the Chantry Cultured countries.

Then we'd get to see Circles replaced with Saarebas and Arvaarad. Good job, Anders. You did some great thinking ahead there.

[DeaHamlet]

Ryzaki wrote...

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

Disrupting a religious institution is never that easy.XD

Alas. I'd turn to the Qunari but I think they're worse. D: 

The Arishok and I had a very good relationship.  Didn't stop him from trying to capture me or kill me, but you know... it was a lot healthier than other relationships in that game, lol.
I must say he had a lot more patience than I would have had with all the provocations thrown at him.

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

Ninche wrote...

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

@HollyJellyfish: No I meant the segement I bolded. About Meredith's abomination sister.

Though Fereldan...I miss Fereldan. Where people were mostly sane. 

Ah! Its in the game. Its really really heartbreaking, and I totally sympathized with Meredith after this revelation. Its why she's so hard on mages.

From Dragon Age Wiki -

If you side with Meredith at the
start of Act III and help the Templars during On The Loose, when you
start the quest Best Served Cold, you can question Meredith during
dialogue and she will explain why she has such a hatred for mages: When
Meredith was younger, her sister developed magical talents but her
family decided to shield her from the Chantry. One day, Meredith's
sister was possessed by a demon, turned into an abomination and killed
the rest of her family save for Meredith, who survived. The Templars
eventually slew her sister, but not before the Abomination killed 70
villagers. This experience led to Meredith's harsh view on magic and why
mages must be treated as people with a curse.

If you can sympathise with Meredith for loosing her family to a mage you can surely sympathise with mages who get taken away from their families, repeatedly abused and kept locked away? Anders himself was kept locked up by himself for a YEAR. I can see where his hatred for templars comes from. Both Anders and Meredith are cases of a system that obviously doesn't work.  Meredith's parents wouldn't hesitate to give up her sister for training if it didn't mean they were to never see her again and end up shamed and disliked by other people for having magic in their family. It's a vicious circle, it's a repetitive pattern that does not serve the function it is meant to serve. It's time to break it and try something new. 

I honestly find it hard to sympathise with anyone in the game because everyone is so freaking stupid. As I said, clearly the loophole for being an apostate is being the protagonist of a Bioware game.

[YamiSnuffles]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

And yes, basically that amounts to me feeling that the Anders rivalmance ending is not out of left field or all that weird. To become that broken, to stop trusting yourself and your motivations, etc. etc....I can see things playing out the way that they did. Oh well, back to our regularly scheduled Anders love-fest - whee! Or maybe that should be a "squee!"

I actually do agree with this (and I don't think I ever said otherwise). I see rivalmance Anders as very broken. It's the only explanation that makes sense to me. I was just arguing that the ending goes against what he's always been about- freedom, his own if nothing else. I can see where this ending comes from (to some extent) and I don't have a problem with people doing it. I won't ever, but that's just me.

[Ryzaki]

DeaHamlet wrote...
The Arishok and I had a very good relationship.  Didn't stop him from trying to capture me or kill me, but you know... it was a lot healthier than other relationships in that game, lol.
I must say he had a lot more patience than I would have had with all the provocations thrown at him.

Oh the Arishok was awesome. It's just those dudes trying to kill me for daring to speak to an uncollared mage I could've gone without (or trying to kill me because I was a mage.) 

Which begs the question why doesn't the Arishok react any differently to you being a mage? Would you still be worthy of a duel? Or worth listening too? I don't understand.  

Edit: NVM BioWare protaganist means you're the only sane apostate. Forgot about that. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 30 mars 2011 - 11:12 .

[Frishmet]

DeaHamlet wrote...

Frishmet wrote...

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

DeaHamlet wrote...
Sadly, I realize now.  It would help to understand where all them blood mages on the streets are coming from.
That Leliana business should not have been DLC.  It's like... an integral part.  It's when you find out the Divine is considering doing an exiled march against all of Kirkwall.
The **** REALLY seems ****tier after doing Seb's quests.  And we all know how I hate Seb.  But his missions do give much insight.

Well thanks for the insight. I thought they were rogue apostates from the circle. Now that I know they're not even from Kirkwall to begin with...hm. 

Divine does an exiled march against everything. I mean really. They need to learn how to suck it up. Everyone isn't going to jump at their command. 

Orzammar doesn't like the Chantry in their kingdom? "EXALTED MARCH" Ugh. Go kick rocks. 

I wish there was a way to tear down the chantry without seeming like I support rogue mages. 

Disrupting a religious institution is never that easy.XD

The fact that the institutions (chantry, templars) that keep control of mages are religious in nature is a huge part of the problem. It's not enough that they are protecting the public from danger.... They can't not be oppressive if they believe they have been given a mission from the maker to keep reign over the cursed mages with inherently evil power.  Even if they feel sorry for the individuals, they are still thought of as evil - not just potentially dangerous.  Power certainly can corrupt but so does beleving your authority is given by divine right.

That is my biggest issue... the fact that they see all mages as corrupt just by being mages.
They start off from a place of mistrust and cite their dogma as proof. 

Exactly! You can't even begin to have a conversation about a "better way" if they believe god has already picked a side.

[DeaHamlet]

I highly doubt the Chantry with their "mages are corrupt and dangerous" attitude was going to allow any changes, especially not ones that give mages real lives.
I am fairly certain that Fenris with his sword can manage to kill 70 people if need be. You don't need magic to go on a killing spree. I'm sure there's plenty of players who solo as warriors.
And nevermind that demons can apparently now tempt non-mages as well... jeebus.

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

Ryzaki wrote...

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

Disrupting a religious institution is never that easy.XD

Alas. I'd turn to the Qunari but I think they're worse. D: 

Maybe if they didn't collar their mages the way they do I might be on their side. But the tongue cutting out? Not cool. 

And strying to kill me because he dared speak to me? Kick rocks Qunari. <_< I was so irritated when they still wanted to kill me after I handed him over. What the hell was that for? 

I didn't mind the Arishok. The Qun has it's roles and you don't stray from them. Pretty straight forward. They have a book that they do everything by. Simple. Predictable.

[ipgd]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Ninche wrote...


If you can sympathise with Meredith for loosing her family to a mage you can surely sympathise with mages who get taken away from their families, repeatedly abused and kept locked away? Anders himself was kept locked up by himself for a YEAR. I can see where his hatred for templars comes from. Both Anders and Meredith are cases of a system that obviously doesn't work.  Meredith's parents wouldn't hesitate to give up her sister for training if it didn't mean they were to never see her again and end up shamed and disliked by other people for having magic in their family. It's a vicious circle, it's a repetitive pattern that does not serve the function it is meant to serve. It's time to break it and try something new. 

It becomes a question of individual rights versus the rights of many.

Do you safeguard the freedoms of one person at the risk of many lives, or do you keep them chained because they have the potential to kill?

One mage compared to seventy people is a big number.

I agree that the Chantry needs to be reformed, that the circle needs to be reformed, but Anders is suggesting the Circle needs to be completely abolished and in many ways is suggesting the Chantry should be destroyed as well. I disagree with that. He isn't looking at the larger picture, which is that the Qunari in the north are paying close attention to Thedas and looking for any weakness that may justify swarming the Chantry Cultured countries.

Then we'd get to see Circles replaced with Saarebas and Arvaarad. Good job, Anders. You did some great thinking ahead there.

I imagine the qunari would have to deal with Tevinter before they could pick off any of the (potentially) warring southern countries, both because of its physical location between Par Vollen and southern Thedas and the fact they would be very likely to ally themselves with any country being overtaken by a mage uprising.

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

Ryzaki wrote...

DeaHamlet wrote...
The Arishok and I had a very good relationship.  Didn't stop him from trying to capture me or kill me, but you know... it was a lot healthier than other relationships in that game, lol.
I must say he had a lot more patience than I would have had with all the provocations thrown at him.

Oh the Arishok was awesome. It's just those dudes trying to kill me for daring to speak to an uncollared mage I could've gone without (or trying to kill me because I was a mage.) 

Which begs the question why doesn't the Arishok react any differently to you being a mage? Would you still be worthy of a duel? Or worth listening too? I don't understand.  

Edit: NVM BioWare protaganist means you're the only sane apostate. Forgot about that. 

Lol. That and everyone in the city has been coded to completely ignore your magery.

[Ryzaki]

DeaHamlet wrote...

I highly doubt the Chantry with their "mages are corrupt and dangerous" attitude was going to allow any changes, especially not ones that give mages real lives.
I am fairly certain that Fenris with his sword can manage to kill 70 people if need be. You don't need magic to go on a killing spree. I'm sure there's plenty of players who solo as warriors.
And nevermind that demons can apparently now tempt non-mages as well... jeebus.

Fenris could kill 70 people sure. But he's a rare and powerful individual not a young girl. 

The fear of killing sprees is because they can be anything a child, a old man, weak, strong, dumb, smart. And still gain all that power. 

As for demons people need to move away from where ever  tons of bloodsacrifices happened. Just put a giant "DO NOT ENTER" sign between the twins or something. That place is a lost cause. Too much crazy. 

[HolyJellyfish]

Ryzaki wrote...

Oh the Arishok was awesome. It's just those dudes trying to kill me for daring to speak to an uncollared mage I could've gone without (or trying to kill me because I was a mage.) 

Which begs the question why doesn't the Arishok react any differently to you being a mage? Would you still be worthy of a duel? Or worth listening too? I don't understand.  

Edit: NVM BioWare protaganist means you're the only sane apostate. Forgot about that. 

I always assumed it was because it is not the Arishok's duty to give a flying bunny about mages, since that is not his role. It is the Arvaarad's duty (since they hold the leash). Hence their reaction at you being a Baaresad.

I loooove qunari.

[DeaHamlet]

Ryzaki wrote...

DeaHamlet wrote...
The Arishok and I had a very good relationship.  Didn't stop him from trying to capture me or kill me, but you know... it was a lot healthier than other relationships in that game, lol.
I must say he had a lot more patience than I would have had with all the provocations thrown at him.

Oh the Arishok was awesome. It's just those dudes trying to kill me for daring to speak to an uncollared mage I could've gone without (or trying to kill me because I was a mage.) 

Which begs the question why doesn't the Arishok react any differently to you being a mage? Would you still be worthy of a duel? Or worth listening too? I don't understand.  

Edit: NVM BioWare protaganist means you're the only sane apostate. Forgot about that. 

LOL.  You're funny.
I don't know, it's funny but if you don't tell those dudes that you are a mage, they don't know.  Despite the STAFF and the ROBES *ahem*.
I don't know what the Arishok's thoughts are on the whole business of Hawke as a mage.  I never got a chance to mention it to him and see.  I doubt he'd expect Hawke to chain herself or kill herself, Hawke is not of the Qun afterall.

[HolyJellyfish]

Ryzaki wrote...

DeaHamlet wrote...

I highly doubt the Chantry with their "mages are corrupt and dangerous" attitude was going to allow any changes, especially not ones that give mages real lives.
I am fairly certain that Fenris with his sword can manage to kill 70 people if need be. You don't need magic to go on a killing spree. I'm sure there's plenty of players who solo as warriors.
And nevermind that demons can apparently now tempt non-mages as well... jeebus.

Fenris could kill 70 people sure. But he's a rare and powerful individual not a young girl. 

AND he was created by mages, to be a weapon OF the mages.

[Ryzaki]

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...
Lol. That and everyone in the city has been coded to completely ignore your magery.

indeed. I would've liked a "escape from the gallows" scene. I was looking forward to the customary BW prison break.  

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...
I didn't mind the Arishok. The Qun has it's roles and you don't stray from them. Pretty straight forward. They have a book that they do everything by. Simple. Predictable.

Unless of course you don't know what's in the book.  Then you're kind of going "wat" to alot of the things they do. 

[Aeowyn]

Because oppressing Circle mages and imprisoning them, telling them that they're a curse of the Maker and that they will never see their families again is such a great way to make sure that they don't get possessed by demons...

Modifié par Aeowyn, 30 mars 2011 - 11:19 .

[elusivemelody]

Aeowyn wrote...

Because opressing Circle mages and imprisoning them, telling them that they're a curse of the Maker and that they will never see their families again is such a great way to make sure that they don't get possessed by demons...

You have a point there.

[Ryzaki]

HolyJellyfish wrote...
I always assumed it was because it is not the Arishok's duty to give a flying bunny about mages, since that is not his role. It is the Arvaarad's duty (since they hold the leash). Hence their reaction at you being a Baaresad.

I loooove qunari.

True that gives Sten an excuse as well. Ah Sten. I miss you.  

HolyJellyfish wrote...
AND he was created by mages, to be a weapon OF the mages.

Yeah that too. Poor Fenris. That lyrium still hurts even now. 

DeaHamlet wrote...
LOL.  You're funny.
I don't know, it's funny but if you don't tell those dudes that you are a mage, they don't know.  Despite the STAFF and the ROBES *ahem*.
I don't know what the Arishok's thoughts are on the whole business of Hawke as a mage.  I never got a chance to mention it to him and see.  I doubt he'd expect Hawke to chain herself or kill herself, Hawke is not of the Qun afterall.

And the magic. I love them ignoring me using magic. The only one who ever seems to notice is Meredith.  

True. But that whole "whispering of the demons" is what I'm confused about. Wouldn't that still apply? 

[cleosilver]

I want to be able to give a dictionary to the clerics. The Chant says Magic should serve man . It doesn't say Mages should serve man. If they only realised the difference this whole thing could have been avoided

[Ryzaki]

Aeowyn wrote...

Because oppressing Circle mages and imprisoning them, telling them that they're a curse of the Maker and that they will never see their families again is such a great way to make sure that they don't get possessed by demons...

Indeed it's not. 

We need some sort of middle ground. I would like a Hogwarts for mages. If you're a kid you get sent there for 9 months out of the year, your parents can visit but it's a long drive. Then you can go home for the summer months before being booted back to school. Until you reach a certain age and prove yourself able to fight of demonic possession. (both surprise demon possession and normal demon possession). Then when someone important dies and the like you're allowed to go back for as long as you need to grieve to make sure you don't try anything stupid (like necromancy). But for that to happen that stupid Chantry needs to go. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 30 mars 2011 - 11:23 .

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

Ryzaki wrote...

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...
Lol. That and everyone in the city has been coded to completely ignore your magery.

indeed. I would've liked a "escape from the gallows" scene. I was looking forward to the customary BW prison break. 

It would have looks like the rest of the inner courtyard of the Gallows, just instead of walking out you're walking out.

[HolyJellyfish]

Aeowyn wrote...

Because oppressing Circle mages and imprisoning them, telling them that they're a curse of the Maker and that they will never see their families again is such a great way to make sure that they don't get possessed by demons...

Lesser of the evils. They could always be chained like the Qunari mages. Or let completely free, like the Tevinter Imperium.

Maybe they should all just become Grey Wardens.