57020 réponses à ce sujet

[elusivemelody]

cleosilver wrote...

I want to be able to give a dictionary to the clerics. The Chant says Magic should serve man . It doesn't say Mages should serve man. If they only realised the difference this whole thing could have been avoided

YES! Exactly. Why don't people think this way? lol

[Aynslie]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

@HollyJellyfish: No I meant the segement I bolded. About Meredith's abomination sister.

Though Fereldan...I miss Fereldan. Where people were mostly sane. 

Ah! Its in the game. Its really really heartbreaking, and I totally sympathized with Meredith after this revelation. Its why she's so hard on mages.

From Dragon Age Wiki -

If you side with Meredith at the
start of Act III and help the Templars during On The Loose, when you
start the quest Best Served Cold, you can question Meredith during
dialogue and she will explain why she has such a hatred for mages: When
Meredith was younger, her sister developed magical talents but her
family decided to shield her from the Chantry. One day, Meredith's
sister was possessed by a demon, turned into an abomination and killed
the rest of her family save for Meredith, who survived. The Templars
eventually slew her sister, but not before the Abomination killed 70
villagers. This experience led to Meredith's harsh view on magic and why
mages must be treated as people with a curse.

I figured something like that must have happened.  The problem is that being SO hard on the Circle Mages is what caused them to freak out in the end and turn to blood magic and demons.  Back a mage in to a corner and they have options others don't.  Her sister probably became an abomination because she didn't get proper training.  I would say that the most dangerous mage is an untrained one.  Thus the Circle is needed as a center of learning, both magical training and Chantry teachings, but needs not be a prison.

[DeaHamlet]

Ryzaki wrote...

DeaHamlet wrote...

I highly doubt the Chantry with their "mages are corrupt and dangerous" attitude was going to allow any changes, especially not ones that give mages real lives.
I am fairly certain that Fenris with his sword can manage to kill 70 people if need be. You don't need magic to go on a killing spree. I'm sure there's plenty of players who solo as warriors.
And nevermind that demons can apparently now tempt non-mages as well... jeebus.

Fenris could kill 70 people sure. But he's a rare and powerful individual not a young girl. 

The fear of killing sprees is because they can be anything a child, a old man, weak, strong, dumb, smart. And still gain all that power. 

As for demons people need to move away from where ever  tons of bloodsacrifices happened. Just put a giant "DO NOT ENTER" sign between the twins or something. That place is a lost cause. Too much crazy. 

That's what you need TRAINING for.  But training and still allowing mages to have lives is not the same as the circle.  In fact, I highly doubt an organization, you know what... call it what it is... a religion can accomodate such lax attitudes when their approach is "mages are cursed and evil and dangerous".
I'm fairly certain if they cut it out with the stealing people's babies away and ripping families apart when they find out about magic, maybe people would be less likely to harbor an untrained mage and risk them becoming a demon!
I just don't see that the chantry is flexible enough for the kind of COMPROMISE I'd be satisfied with.  Their compromise would be, at most, let's go back to status quo and pretend Meredith never happened.  Or let's destroy a whole city and pretend it never happened.  o.O Exalted march, really?  I lose all ability to see chantry as capable of REAL compromise when I hear all this crap from their mouths.

And then I agree with Anders.  The compromise they're trying to reach is not really compromise.
What you do from there might differ... but working within the system is unlikely to change things.  I highly doubt my boon of mage freedom did ANYTHING, and King Alistair even tells me so.  It's infuriating, but there it is.
My warden tried to work WITH the chantry, my Hawke is beyond patience with them.

[silver-crescent]

I think that that abomination is mentioned in some codex even if you side with the mages. Maybe in the one for Orsino's staff? I'm pretty sure I read about an abomination that killed 70 people somewhere.

[DeaHamlet]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

DeaHamlet wrote...

I highly doubt the Chantry with their "mages are corrupt and dangerous" attitude was going to allow any changes, especially not ones that give mages real lives.
I am fairly certain that Fenris with his sword can manage to kill 70 people if need be. You don't need magic to go on a killing spree. I'm sure there's plenty of players who solo as warriors.
And nevermind that demons can apparently now tempt non-mages as well... jeebus.

Fenris could kill 70 people sure. But he's a rare and powerful individual not a young girl. 

AND he was created by mages, to be a weapon OF the mages.

Fine, since you want to be that way.
Aveline could kill 70 no problem.
Alistair could kill even more than those.
Sten could probably win the competition and kill several villages over.
NONE have anything to do with magic.  There.

[Rinji the Bearded]

The fact remains that if it had not been for the fear of mages, what happens to them, and etc, Meredith's parents never would have tried so hard to hide the sister. Her sister did not receive proper training. If the mage children were able to see their parents while receiving education, that would have never happened. Also, Isolde never would have shielded Connor and etc., you can hardly blame a parent for loving their child too much.  It's drastic, yes, but if I had children, I'd do anything to keep them in my life.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 30 mars 2011 - 11:28 .

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...

Because oppressing Circle mages and imprisoning them, telling them that they're a curse of the Maker and that they will never see their families again is such a great way to make sure that they don't get possessed by demons...

Lesser of the evils. They could always be chained like the Qunari mages. Or let completely free, like the Tevinter Imperium.

Maybe they should all just become Grey Wardens.

They definitely need to be controlled. It's like giving a bomb to a child. It is clear that horrible treatment and undue stress do tend to either drive them to suicide or to blood magic. I don't think Grey Wardening is the answer though. It's like gving them an even harsher sentence. Either death or if they do become a Warden you've sentenced them to a short life.

[jab19782010]

Help me understand something...what makes a mage become a demon? Why do they become one? Unless I have missed it somewhere don't they CHOOSE to become one? Didn't Anders say in banter (with Fenris, I believe) that you have to look a demon in the eye and agree to its terms or something close to that? Someone please help me understand that.

Now you have humans born with something they had no control over being born with and they are stripped of all freedoms and liberties because of it. Yeah I think I'd probably make a deal with a demon to try to change that too...

[elusivemelody]

I think the circle could work if it was less prison like. They could just calm down a bit. There needs to be some kind of balance.

[Rinji the Bearded]

jab19782010 wrote...

Help me understand something...what makes a mage become a demon? Why do they become one? Unless I have missed it somewhere don't they CHOOSE to become one? Didn't Anders say in banter (with Fenris, I believe) that you have to look a demon in the eye and agree to its terms or something close to that? Someone please help me understand that.

Now you have humans born with something they had no control over being born with and they are stripped of all freedoms and liberties because of it. Yeah I think I'd probably make a deal with a demon to try to change that too...

He was talking about becoming a blood mage.

[Aeowyn]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...

Because oppressing Circle mages and imprisoning them, telling them that they're a curse of the Maker and that they will never see their families again is such a great way to make sure that they don't get possessed by demons...

Lesser of the evils. They could always be chained like the Qunari mages. Or let completely free, like the Tevinter Imperium.

Maybe they should all just become Grey Wardens.

Or maybe they should actually be taught how to use their magic to help people? Maybe be taught to pride themselves in NOT resorting to blood magic and making deals with demons. In my opinion strong mind = less chance of becoming abomination/resorting to super evil bodily fluid magic. The Chantry fails at that, and Meredith certainly fails at that. Her sister became an abomination yes, but I'm sorry, I cannot feel any sympathy for her whatsoever. It does not excuse her actions, nor her ways of treating mages. How many Harrowed mages were made tranquil? She MADE the mages desperate, and I think it's pretty well known that desperate people resort to desperate measures.

[HolyJellyfish]

Ryzaki wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...

Because oppressing Circle mages and imprisoning them, telling them that they're a curse of the Maker and that they will never see their families again is such a great way to make sure that they don't get possessed by demons...

Indeed it's not. 

We need some sort of middle ground. I would like a Hogwarts for mages. But for that to happen that stupid Chantry needs to go. 

Unfortunately, you need to have someone who can keep mages in check. Constantly. Because, if there is anything we've learned in the DA universe, demons are everywhere and temptation is high.

The Dalish rely on the Keeper to protect them from demons

The Circle relies on Templars

Qunari rely on Arvaarad - a more extreme example.

So what it comes down to is this - You have mages who keep an eye on other mages (this can be dangerous, see Tevinter Imperium), you have Templars who watch mages (Limited by number, since they rely on Lyrium), and then you have the Arvaarad (who are the most extreme example).

And since more mages are being born every day, its becoming more and more difficult to go any other direction than the circle. If it were up to me, I'd assign a fail safe to every free mage, but that isn't going to work because of limited resources. Templars really are the best option when you compare them to other options.

I mean. You really have to think about it. If Andraste herself - a mage herself - was the woman responsible for inspiring the Circle's construction and suggesting Mages MUST be contained, that speaks volumes.

[jab19782010]

RinjiRenee wrote...

jab19782010 wrote...

Help me understand something...what makes a mage become a demon? Why do they become one? Unless I have missed it somewhere don't they CHOOSE to become one? Didn't Anders say in banter (with Fenris, I believe) that you have to look a demon in the eye and agree to its terms or something close to that? Someone please help me understand that.

Now you have humans born with something they had no control over being born with and they are stripped of all freedoms and liberties because of it. Yeah I think I'd probably make a deal with a demon to try to change that too...

He was talking about becoming a blood mage.

Oh ok thanks for clearing that up for me.

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

DeaHamlet wrote...

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

DeaHamlet wrote...

I highly doubt the Chantry with their "mages are corrupt and dangerous" attitude was going to allow any changes, especially not ones that give mages real lives.
I am fairly certain that Fenris with his sword can manage to kill 70 people if need be. You don't need magic to go on a killing spree. I'm sure there's plenty of players who solo as warriors.
And nevermind that demons can apparently now tempt non-mages as well... jeebus.

Fenris could kill 70 people sure. But he's a rare and powerful individual not a young girl. 

AND he was created by mages, to be a weapon OF the mages.

Fine, since you want to be that way.
Aveline could kill 70 no problem.
Alistair could kill even more than those.
Sten could probably win the competition and kill several villages over.
NONE have anything to do with magic.  There.

They've all fallen in battle with me against a handful of guys.

Rubbish companions.

Modifié par MelfinaofOutlawStar, 30 mars 2011 - 11:29 .

[Frishmet]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...

Because oppressing Circle mages and imprisoning them, telling them that they're a curse of the Maker and that they will never see their families again is such a great way to make sure that they don't get possessed by demons...

Lesser of the evils. They could always be chained like the Qunari mages. Or let completely free, like the Tevinter Imperium.

Maybe they should all just become Grey Wardens.

Too bad they can't have an organization of mages that hunt evil mages. Sort of like the Aurors from Harry Potter.   Seems like the people that would truly be effective against malificarum are being locked up just in case they become malificarum too. lol

[Ryzaki]

DeaHamlet wrote...

That's what you need TRAINING for.  But training and still allowing mages to have lives is not the same as the circle.  In fact, I highly doubt an organization, you know what... call it what it is... a religion can accomodate such lax attitudes when their approach is "mages are cursed and evil and dangerous".

Indeed I agree with you. But the fact remains Fenris needs training before he becomes a threat. A mage needs training not to become a threat. 

A very important difference. 

I'm fairly certain if they cut it out with the stealing people's babies away and ripping families apart when they find out about magic, maybe people would be less likely to harbor an untrained mage and risk them becoming a demon!
I just don't see that the chantry is flexible enough for the kind of COMPROMISE I'd be satisfied with.  Their compromise would be, at most, let's go back to status quo and pretend Meredith never happened.  Or let's destroy a whole city and pretend it never happened.  o.O Exalted march, really?  I lose all ability to see chantry as capable of REAL compromise when I hear all this crap from their mouths.

And yeah stealing people's kids aren't cool. I see the necessity of needing the children close to well trained mages. (Perhaps a "if you have a mage child you need to move to X village where there are more mages to keep an eye on your kid and make sure he/she doesn't go ape****.) And parents who refuse to compromise do have their child taken away (simply because they're putting far more than just themselves in danger). 

And ugh. Chantry. I hate the Chantry. Too much "master overlords" involved with them. I"d prefer the circles had nothing to do with religion period. 

And then I agree with Anders.  The compromise they're trying to reach is not really compromise.
What you do from there might differ... but working within the system is unlikely to change things.  I highly doubt my boon of mage freedom did ANYTHING, and King Alistair even tells me so.  It's infuriating, but there it is.
My warden tried to work WITH the chantry, my Hawke is beyond patience with them.

But neither is mages running around freely. I can't get behind that. Too much bloodshed will happen for another Tevinter Imperium or for mages to end up again brutally subjacated. Power corrupts period. Doesn't matter how pure your intentions. Having a lot of power and being able to weild that over those who don't isgoing to lead to abuses. Templar or Mage. What's needed is a checks and balances Mages answer to Templars who answer to someone else (not the Chantry preferably someone completely neutral). It's not a easy question to solve. The Circle as is just...it's too abusive. But free mages well Tevinter isn't exactly a happy place for nonmages. There needs to be some compromise (just not with the Chantry). 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 30 mars 2011 - 11:31 .

[AtreiyaN7]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

I actually do agree with this (and I don't think I ever said otherwise). I see rivalmance Anders as very broken. It's the only explanation that makes sense to me. I was just arguing that the ending goes against what he's always been about- freedom, his own if nothing else. I can see where this ending comes from (to some extent) and I don't have a problem with people doing it. I won't ever, but that's just me.

Yeah, I'm highly unlikely to ever go there with the rivalmance either - heh, just not possible for me to be mean to the poor man. Oh well, maybe after hitting rock bottom like he does, Anders can evenually regain dominance over Justice post-rivalmance. It sounded like he didn't want Justice to ever take over him again, so I suppose that might ultimately end with his tragic death or with Anders fighting hard for his continued existence (should he somehow manage to claw his way back out of the abyss he plummeted into).

The friendmance route is certainly easier, but all along the way, I knew that my Hawke was essentially enabling Anders. I ended up encouraging his zeal and fervor so much so that by Act III, I think he loses all ability to see that what he's doing is wrong. He's blind to the fact that he's taken things to a dangerous extreme. That's kind of how I felt about it in a nutshell. Ah well, being this complicated is a plus in a my book, because if things were simple or easy, then the Anders romance wouldn't be as interesting as it is.

[HolyJellyfish]

Aeowyn wrote...

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...

Because oppressing Circle mages and imprisoning them, telling them that they're a curse of the Maker and that they will never see their families again is such a great way to make sure that they don't get possessed by demons...

Lesser of the evils. They could always be chained like the Qunari mages. Or let completely free, like the Tevinter Imperium.

Maybe they should all just become Grey Wardens.

Or maybe they should actually be taught how to use their magic to help people? Maybe be taught to pride themselves in NOT resorting to blood magic and making deals with demons. In my opinion strong mind = less chance of becoming abomination/resorting to super evil bodily fluid magic.

Yes, but that doesn't work. Merrill, who had the best mage training known to anyone from an outstanding Keeper who warned and loved her over and over and over again still resorted to blood magic and making a deal with a demon despite all the warnings.

Demons tempt, and everyone gets tempted. Even Anders was tempted. The only two people I've seen in the game who have NOT been tempted were Wynne and Morrigan.

[ipgd]

jab19782010 wrote...

Help me understand something...what makes a mage become a demon? Why do they become one? Unless I have missed it somewhere don't they CHOOSE to become one? Didn't Anders say in banter (with Fenris, I believe) that you have to look a demon in the eye and agree to its terms or something close to that? Someone please help me understand that.

Now you have humans born with something they had no control over being born with and they are stripped of all freedoms and liberties because of it. Yeah I think I'd probably make a deal with a demon to try to change that too...

You do have to make a deal with the demon, but demons are incredibly manipulative. Just look at what happens to everyone in the Fade.

[Miri1984]

There's no reason why mages can't be "assigned" a templar. Or every town can have a Templar outpost that you call if your local mage goes wacko. I actually like the idea that if Hawke is a warrior he or she is a Templar too, because it makes sense for Malcolm and Leandra to recognise that there is a danger to having an untrained mage around.

The circles are warped. They may have started out as a place of refuge and study for mages, but they've turned into prisons. Ask anyone who has been inside, a lot of prison guards, no matter how they start out, end up vindictive and vicious because of the power they hold (I'm not painting them all with the same brush here, but it's certainly very common for prison guards to lose sight of the humanity of their charges).

[Ryzaki]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Unfortunately, you need to have someone who can keep mages in check. Constantly. Because, if there is anything we've learned in the DA universe, demons are everywhere and temptation is high.

The Dalish rely on the Keeper to protect them from demons

The Circle relies on Templars

Qunari rely on Arvaarad - a more extreme example.

So what it comes down to is this - You have mages who keep an eye on other mages (this can be dangerous, see Tevinter Imperium), you have Templars who watch mages (Limited by number, since they rely on Lyrium), and then you have the Arvaarad (who are the most extreme example).

And since more mages are being born every day, its becoming more and more difficult to go any other direction than the circle. If it were up to me, I'd assign a fail safe to every free mage, but that isn't going to work because of limited resources. Templars really are the best option when you compare them to other options.

I mean. You really have to think about it. If Andraste herself - a mage herself - was the woman responsible for inspiring the Circle's construction and suggesting Mages MUST be contained, that speaks volumes.

Is it totally impossible to learn templar talents with Lyrium? Alistair suggested it wasn't. That the only reason the Chantry really did it was because it gave some extra Oomph but mostly so they can keep the Templars in check. IN that case would resources truely be so limited? 

[mesmerizedish]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Yes, but that doesn't work. Merrill, who had the best mage training known to anyone from an outstanding Keeper who warned and loved her over and over and over again still resorted to blood magic and making a deal with a demon despite all the warnings.

Demons tempt, and everyone gets tempted. Even Anders was tempted. The only two people I've seen in the game who have NOT been tempted were Wynne and Morrigan.

The former of whom already is an abomination, and the latter of whom already uses blood magic.

[Ninche]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Ninche wrote...


If you can sympathise with Meredith for loosing her family to a mage you can surely sympathise with mages who get taken away from their families, repeatedly abused and kept locked away? Anders himself was kept locked up by himself for a YEAR. I can see where his hatred for templars comes from. Both Anders and Meredith are cases of a system that obviously doesn't work.  Meredith's parents wouldn't hesitate to give up her sister for training if it didn't mean they were to never see her again and end up shamed and disliked by other people for having magic in their family. It's a vicious circle, it's a repetitive pattern that does not serve the function it is meant to serve. It's time to break it and try something new. 

It becomes a question of individual rights versus the rights of many.

Do you safeguard the freedoms of one person at the risk of many lives, or do you keep them chained because they have the potential to kill?

One mage compared to seventy people is a big number.

I agree that the Chantry needs to be reformed, that the circle needs to be reformed, but Anders is suggesting the Circle needs to be completely abolished and in many ways is suggesting the Chantry should be destroyed as well. I disagree with that. He isn't looking at the larger picture, which is that the Qunari in the north are paying close attention to Thedas and looking for any weakness that may justify swarming the Chantry Cultured countries.

Then we'd get to see Circles replaced with Saarebas and Arvaarad. Good job, Anders. You did some great thinking ahead there.

So we are simplifying the argument down to: If oppressing a number of mages will keep the majority of peoplesafe it is worth it?

Let's investigate the Meredith scenario: Her sister became an abomination because she had no training and no guidance. If she got sent to the circle she would have got her training and guidance and probably would NOT become an abomination. (In Ferelden this phenomenon is quite rare). This means that mages who are ALREADY in a circle are recieving all the training and guidance they possibly can and are far LESS dangerous than mages who are left to grow up without any training. So why would Meredith repeatedly torment and oppress the mages who are ALREADY in the circle where she can watch them? It makes no sesnse to take it out on those who are already imprisoned and easy for her to torture. 

Also, the reason Meredith's sister didn't get send to the circle was because her family loved her and wouldn't give her up. It's easy to claim that you would follow the rules and give up your own baby for the greater good in theory, but in reality who would gladly agree to this? 

There is a number of reasonsw hy the Chantry needs to be brought down and I have listed them all before. The Chantry as an institution is not an all-peaceful all-loving group of sweet old lady nuns. They are an institution of power and control - they use the mages as an excuse to gather an army greater than the army of any separate kingdom - and use methods of brainwashing and addiction to keep their army under control. 
Furthermore, and what's the worst thing about the Chantry, is that they believe and teach others to believe that mages are born tainted and cursed and deserve to be punished for something that was out of their control for the rest of their lives. What kind of reasonable religion condemns people so irrationally? What kind of god would create life and then choose to despise a portion of it? And what kind of people would gladly submit to such claims and lay their lives down for the sake of some all powerful figure claiming to be the voice of the maker?

Even Anders himself believes in the maker, he just refuses to believe that his god would create him and others like him and then turn against them. It makes no sense, it's just another tool of control. 

Lastly, the mages have been the only powerful tool the Chantry could use against the qunari when they invaded, the Chantry (to put it mildly) mistreats their mages so now they have risen against it. If the qunari should invade now I think it's only fair the Chantry should try and lead their war without their slaves and see how that goes. 

There wll always be excuses not to rise against your oppressors, and the time will never be right. I think the people who start revolutions like that are braver and more selfless than I, and the majority of people, could ever be. Nobody wants to be hated and hunted, we'd all rather sit around and hope somehow things will resolve themselves and turn out for the better. Maybe the maker will save us if we deserve to be saved.

And if all the mages do end up in chains and magical collars led around by qunari puppeteers at least they tried to fight for their freedom.  

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Aeowyn wrote...

Because oppressing Circle mages and imprisoning them, telling them that they're a curse of the Maker and that they will never see their families again is such a great way to make sure that they don't get possessed by demons...

Lesser of the evils. They could always be chained like the Qunari mages. Or let completely free, like the Tevinter Imperium.

Maybe they should all just become Grey Wardens.

Or maybe they should actually be taught how to use their magic to help people? Maybe be taught to pride themselves in NOT resorting to blood magic and making deals with demons. In my opinion strong mind = less chance of becoming abomination/resorting to super evil bodily fluid magic.

Demons tempt, and everyone gets tempted. Even Anders was tempted. The only two people I've seen in the game who have NOT been tempted were Wynne and Morrigan.

If only we could have more kind old ladies and cynical pricks walking around. Demons would get so bored.

[Ryzaki]

ipgd wrote...
You do have to make a deal with the demon, but demons are incredibly manipulative. Just look at what happens to everyone in the Fade.

Good lord I hated that part. I felt like I had a bunch of weakwilled companions. At least in Origins Morrigan and Sten had my back. Bah. 

And when Fenris was all like "really? I can get power to defeat the Magisters?" My Hawke facepalmed so hard. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 30 mars 2011 - 11:36 .