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[Jean]

LoneWolf4191 wrote...

Batteries wrote...

Did anyone else who plays on xbox feel like something was wrong when there was no achievement popping up after the romance scene?
You get it in the other games after you have sex.

I didn't, if it's for the romance one, you get it at the end.

I know, but about 10 minutes after the scene I was thinking: Wait... Where's my romance achievement? I JUST HAD SEX WITH THE MAN AND I'M DENIED? Then the game finished later.

[Aeowyn]

Sjofn wrote...

Periph wrote...
There are so many small things that lead up to the Vengeance mess that it ends up feeling like anyone who ran into Justice or Anders helped make it worse.

I definitely at least partly blame my Wardens, they were all "THE MORTAL REALM IS RAD, IT'S FINE IF YOU THINK SO." My bad, I guess. I also blame Nathaniel for opening his BIG FAT MOUTH. But it's hard to stay mad at him. So let's stick to blaming my wardens. They're tough, they can take it.


EDIT: Also, Jowan couldn't cast blood magic spells in the Fade because Jowan is the worst mage in the history of maging. Such a useless dork.

Hmm, it feels like I missed something here.

[Dunizel]

DeaHamlet wrote...

Hellmouth to the max. I mean, I gotta wonder why demons there even bother trying to get into mage's pants.
They can just freaking manifest at will.

Really. And it doens't even take a mage with a connection of some sorts to the Fade. They manifest pretty much from everyone. I suppose even if a mage was writing the most innocent letter, and then cuts himself with the paper spilling a single drop of blood, a demon would pop up and say hi. >.>

[Jean]

DeaHamlet wrote...

And what about Anders himself? In Awakening you can give him blood mage spec (I would never, that's so evil!)... does that mean her made some deal with a demon then?
Or... omg... is the warden a demon?

Anders is cute but sometimes what he says is so confusing. From how he cannot make up his mind if Justice and him are one (and not even the greatest of scholars can tell them apart, umpf)... or separate with disagreeing thoughts (oh sex, it's such a divisive topic lol)... and all the stuff about mages, and blood mages, and demons... I'm fairly certain even a blood mage would be terrified at the thought of becoming a demon because that means they don't exist anymore. Demons don't seem to do things half-way... they just take over. So confusing!

What's funny is that he sounds like he doesn't even care when you make a blood mage.

"Oh, I'm sure eventually they would of branded me a blood mage and killed me, true or not.."

"But you're a blood mage now."

"Oh now I am.

BUT THE PROBLEM IS THAT MAGES ARE TOLERATED EVERYONE NEEDS TO BE PROTECTED FROM YOU THE END I WANT TO SHOOT LIGHTNING AT FOOLS AND BURN TEMPLARS*RAGE RAGE RAGE*"

The irony.

[witchthief]

Aha! So now I know what's been stealing my pencils.

[Ninche]

DeaHamlet wrote...

And what about Anders himself? In Awakening you can give him blood mage spec (I would never, that's so evil!)... does that mean her made some deal with a demon then?
Or... omg... is the warden a demon?

Anders is cute but sometimes what he says is so confusing. From how he cannot make up his mind if Justice and him are one (and not even the greatest of scholars can tell them apart, umpf)... or separate with disagreeing thoughts (oh sex, it's such a divisive topic lol)... and all the stuff about mages, and blood mages, and demons... I'm fairly certain even a blood mage would be terrified at the thought of becoming a demon because that means they don't exist anymore. Demons don't seem to do things half-way... they just take over. So confusing!

I know!! See that's the thing: Anders seems to contradict himself alot about what being one with Justice feels like. He says "its not like we can have a conversation" but then when you do Dissent and he walks in on the templar and the mage girl - his eyes flash blue and he goes: "no, we can't" so in a way he IS talking to Justice! Then in the rivalry path he admits that Justice controls him and makes him do evil things, but in the friendship path he insists they are one and he doesn't mention anything about Justice poisoning his mind. Also, inone version, apparently, he says Kill me before there is nothing left of me or w/e and in other versions he seems to be at peace with himself and Justice inside now that they've blown up the chantry. I am so confused, I don't know what to think or believe! 


Also, I was thinking: Okay, let's say Anders hears Justice's thoughts as his own and therefore as the time passes it gets harder and harder to tell if what he's thinking is ANDERS or JUSTICE. There is one thing he knows Justice disapproves of - his love for Hawke. So then, knowing that, he can definitely tell that everything he does and feels for Hawke is what ANDERS would like to do and what ANDERS feels. Then, if he is worried he is loosing himself to Justice wouldn't it make sense to cling to the one thing he knows belongs to Anders and not Justice? If he refuses to follow Vengeance's urges wouldn't it make sense to dedicate his life to protecting and loving Hawke since he knows that is definitely what HE wants to do? And that way maybe avoid blowing up nuns and such?

[Threeparts]

I'm still very confused as to why killing Vengeance in the Fade had no effect on Anders or the demon. Was it because it was Feynriel's dream, and his control over the reality there meant that he didn't allow them to be harmed in the waking world? Was it because he wasn't sure of his own powers so they weren't... immersed in the Fade itself, just a simulation provided by Feynriel's mind? Why does killing Feynriel make him Tranquil, but not Anders?
I have too many questions about that part.

It does make me wonder if getting to Vengeance in the Fade would enable us to sever his connection to his host body, if we had the right knowledge and enough power. If not, I'd still like my Hawke to have a long conversation with him about what he's doing. I know he's a demon now and probably less open to reason and more likely to be selfish and blind to his effect, but I'd like to try, damn it.
I really don't like the Imperium, but it's likely to be the only place that has the answers.

... And now I'm imagining Hawke and Anders going undercover into the Imperium, with Anders trying to pass as a blood mage, and non-mage Hawke glaring daggers at him after he's convinced her to pretend to be his slave.

Modifié par Threeparts, 01 avril 2011 - 10:50 .

[nekhbet]

Anders contradicting himself sounds like a natural consequence of being possessed, really.

[Jean]

Threeparts wrote...

I'm still very confused as to why killing Vengeance in the Fade had no effect on Anders or the demon. Was it because it was Feynriel's dream, and his control over the reality there meant that he didn't allow them to be harmed in the waking world? Was it because he wasn't sure of his own powers so they weren't... immersed in the Fade itself, just a simulation provided by Feynriel's mind? Why does killing Feynriel make him Tranquil, but not Anders?
I have too many questions about that part.

It does make me wonder if getting to Vengeance in the Fade would enable us to sever his connection to his host body, if we had the right knowledge and enough power. If not, I'd still like my Hawke to have a long conversation with him about what he's doing. I know he's a demon now and probably less open to reason and more likely to be selfish and blind to his effect, but I'd like to try, damn it.
I really don't like the Imperium, but it's likely to be the only place that has the answers.

If Tevinter can fix Shale's problem, I can see possibility to do... something with Anders. But I think what the Keeper said would still be in effect, that his soul will never be the same one way or another.

[Dunizel]

Ninche wrote...

I know!! See that's the thing: Anders seems to contradict himself alot about what being one with Justice feels like. 

I think he is confused and it is hard to tell even for himself.
The difference, I think, is that in a friendship path supporting him he has less constast with Vengeance purpouse and mission. So he just ends up following Vengeance's impulse. In the rival path he questions more, so maybe he feels more the difference between his instincts and Vengeance's ones. That said, that doens't mean, in my opinion, that Vengeance has a far greater influence in the friendship path than what we can see or what Anders says us. We don't know, not even Anders knows.

What really makes me sad, is that even in the end he is thinking about Justice well being, hoping he would be free if he dies... ç_ç He doesn't care for his life or himself anymore...I can't stop thinking he is a caring soul, no matter the Chantries he blows up. 

(I know its cinical to say, but in a way he minimized the victims. I think he would have killed far more people if he attacked the templars in the Gallows. And it is not like there were only innocent people in the Chantry. And Elthina doing nothing was just as guilty as Meredith)

Modifié par Dunizel, 01 avril 2011 - 10:56 .

[Jean]

Dunizel wrote...

Ninche wrote...

I know!! See that's the thing: Anders seems to contradict himself alot about what being one with Justice feels like. 

I think he is confused and it is hard to tell even for himself.
The difference, I think, is that in a friendship path supporting him he has less constast with Vengeance purpouse and mission. So he just ends up following Vengeance's impulse. In the rival path he questions more, so maybe he feels more the difference between his instincts and Vengeance's ones. That said, that doens't mean, in my opinion, that Vengeance has a far greater influence in the friendship path than what we can see or what Anders says us. We don't know, not even Anders knows.

What really makes me sad, is that even in the end he is thinking about Justice well being, hoping he would be free if he dies... ç_ç He doesn't care for his life or himself anymore...I can't stop thinking he is a caring soul, no matter the Chantries he blows up. 

(I know its cinical to say, but in a way he minimized the victims. I think he would have killed far more people if he attacked the templars in the Gallows. And it is not like there were only innocent people in the Chantry. And Elthina doing nothing was just as guilty as Meredith)

I wondered if by doing that he stopped a March on the city from the Divine. Meredith did send for the Rite before he blew up the chantry, but I think even if the Grand Cleric denied, couldn't she of sent another to Orlais to the Divine herself?
I could see her seeing that as a reason to start one on the city instead of just granting the Rite.

[Threeparts]

Batteries wrote...

If Tevinter can fix Shale's problem, I can see possibility to do... something with Anders. But I think what the Keeper said would still be in effect, that his soul will never be the same one way or another.

Yeah, making him easy prey for "scavengers", as she said wouldn't be a good idea. Even if he could avoid it by never using magic again so as to evade their attention, I don't know how well Anders could or would want to be subject to that kind of restriction.

I didn't really like Justice in Awakening, and I loathe what Vengeance has done, but perhaps keeping them merged would be the better idea. But only if it would be possible to talk some damn sense into him.

I like the idea that after the Chantry goes boom and the templars are defeated, that Vengeance is, for a while, sated. He doesn't come out again, even when facing down Meredith or the Templars, and while Anders is still gung-ho about the revolution, he's still enough himself to want a a romanced Hawke to stay by his side and go on the run with him. It's not "you would be a fine general for the armies of the mage resistance," it's "I need to fight in this war, but I still love you and, if you're willing, I want you with me to the end". Even merged, there's plenty of Anders left.

Gah, I really want to know if he steadily deteriorates after that, or if the Chantry was a turning point on the friendship path where they kind of come into balance with each other. Is he more Vengeance and less Anders a year down the track? Or is he still Anders' basic personality overlaid with the drive to fight for his cause at any cost?

[erilben]

Batteries wrote...

If Tevinter can fix Shale's problem, I can see possibility to do... something with Anders. But I think what the Keeper said would still be in effect, that his soul will never be the same one way or another.

Do we even know they were able to help Shale? Wynne says she was going to go with Tevinter with Shale to help. The epilogue slides hint that Shale became a dwarf again, but the epilogue slides are just rumors and hearsay now.

Modifié par erilben, 01 avril 2011 - 11:12 .

[Ninche]

Threeparts wrote...

Batteries wrote...

If Tevinter can fix Shale's problem, I can see possibility to do... something with Anders. But I think what the Keeper said would still be in effect, that his soul will never be the same one way or another.

Yeah, making him easy prey for "scavengers", as she said wouldn't be a good idea. Even if he could avoid it by never using magic again so as to evade their attention, I don't know how well Anders could or would want to be subject to that kind of restriction.

I didn't really like Justice in Awakening, and I loathe what Vengeance has done, but perhaps keeping them merged would be the better idea. But only if it would be possible to talk some damn sense into him.

I like the idea that after the Chantry goes boom and the templars are defeated, that Vengeance is, for a while, sated. He doesn't come out again, even when facing down Meredith or the Templars, and while Anders is still gung-ho about the revolution, he's still enough himself to want a a romanced Hawke to stay by his side and go on the run with him. It's not "you would be a fine general for the armies of the mage resistance," it's "I need to fight in this war, but I still love you and, if you're willing, I want you with me to the end". Even merged, there's plenty of Anders left.

Gah, I really want to know if he steadily deteriorates after that, or if the Chantry was a turning point on the friendship path where they kind of come into balance with each other. Is he more Vengeance and less Anders a year down the track? Or is he still Anders' basic personality overlaid with the drive to fight for his cause at any cost?

That's exactly what I'd like to know! (Haha you gave me so much hope with the first part of your post and then brought me back down into misery!) Maybe I should send Hepler a vial of my tears and a proof of my failed degree and BEG her to tell me in order to prevent me from descending into madness.

Edit: I'm already loosing my ability to spell!

Modifié par Ninche, 01 avril 2011 - 11:18 .

[silver-crescent]

Ninche wrote...

I think I've just depressed myself at 10:30 in the morning and potentially ruined any possibility for a successful day of writing. What bothers me most is that we DON’T know if he’s going to get worse and “loose himself” completely eventually or if there is hope for him to defeat/separate himself from/learn to control Vengeance. I think this is why I can’t get over the ending and think happy things, it’s the uncertainty of what’s going to happen, and every time I read something that suggests Anders is just disappearing I want to crawl under my bed and cry.

Is it weird that the whole Anders thing affects me so much?

That is very true. And the fact that things play in different ways depending on wether you're a friend, rival, neither, friendromance or rivalromance makes it even more confusing.

All in all I'm pretty sure the worst possible outcome is when you neither befriend nor rival him, he just goes plain crazy that way.

[Jean]

erilben wrote...

Batteries wrote...

If Tevinter can fix Shale's problem, I can see possibility to do... something with Anders. But I think what the Keeper said would still be in effect, that his soul will never be the same one way or another.

Do we even know they were able to help Shale? Wynne says she was going to go with Tevinter with Shale to help. The epilogue slides hint that Shale became a dwarf again, but the epilogue slides are just rumors and hearsay now.

I never got Shale, so I really don't know what happened.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Threeparts wrote...

Gah, I really want to know if he steadily deteriorates after that, or if the Chantry was a turning point on the friendship path where they kind of come into balance with each other. Is he more Vengeance and less Anders a year down the track? Or is he still Anders' basic personality overlaid with the drive to fight for his cause at any cost?

It would likely depend on the Hawke and his/her ability to deal with Vengeance in both a practical and emotional sense.  My Hawke is a mage like Anders.  She probably has some practical solutions to Vengeance; magical drills, breathing, anything to sharpen Anders' focus and hone his self-control.  And any Hawke who acts as an emotional anchor for Anders would likely be of help.

The thing is that after the Chantry, Anders doesn't need "tough love."  He already knows regardless of friendship or rivalry that he killed innocent people and committed an atrocity.  He's saddled with guilt one way or another.  What he needs is compassion, sympathy, and support--not for what he did, but for the kind and gentle man he is under all that baggage.

[Ninche]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Threeparts wrote...

Gah, I really want to know if he steadily deteriorates after that, or if the Chantry was a turning point on the friendship path where they kind of come into balance with each other. Is he more Vengeance and less Anders a year down the track? Or is he still Anders' basic personality overlaid with the drive to fight for his cause at any cost?

It would likely depend on the Hawke and his/her ability to deal with Vengeance in both a practical and emotional sense.  My Hawke is a mage like Anders.  She probably has some practical solutions to Vengeance; magical drills, breathing, anything to sharpen Anders' focus and hone his self-control.  And any Hawke who acts as an emotional anchor for Anders would likely be of help.

The thing is that after the Chantry, Anders doesn't need "tough love."  He already knows regardless of friendship or rivalry that he killed innocent people and committed an atrocity.  He's saddled with guilt one way or another.  What he needs is compassion, sympathy, and support--not for what he did, but for the kind and gentle man he is under all that baggage.

This.

He could also use a moving castle in order to avoid being hunted down. I just realised that I've already been obsessed with a blond, possessed and morally questionable mage who just wants to be free. This is it, I am just following a pattern now, I never had a chance at resisting the Anders romance. 

Howl's Moving Castle trailer:  <3

[Jean]

Speaking of being hunted, the templars should still have his phylactery in back Ferelden. I'm sure it won't take long for word to get aroud of what he did. I'm rather surprised he wasn't found within those years in Kirkwall, actually. I wish he would of made some sort of comment about being away from the circle for so many years in a row, even if he still is hiding.
I suppose being possessed and seeing mages treated like animals kinda puts a damper on that.

[Sable Rhapsody]

Ninche wrote...
He could also use a moving castle in order to avoid being hunted down. I just realised that I've already been obsessed with a blond, possessed and morally questionable mage who just wants to be free. This is it, I am just following a pattern now, I never had a chance at resisting the Anders romance. 

Howl's Moving Castle trailer:  <3

Haha!  I never thought of that connection, but I also love Howl's Moving Castle.  Two of my D&D characters are inspired by Howl and Sophie.  Now I want to see Anders in Howl's outfit.  It's not any more complex or ridiculous than his own getup with its zillion buckles 

[Ninche]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Ninche wrote...
He could also use a moving castle in order to avoid being hunted down. I just realised that I've already been obsessed with a blond, possessed and morally questionable mage who just wants to be free. This is it, I am just following a pattern now, I never had a chance at resisting the Anders romance. 

Howl's Moving Castle trailer:  <3

Haha!  I never thought of that connection, but I also love Howl's Moving Castle.  Two of my D&D characters are inspired by Howl and Sophie.  Now I want to see Anders in Howl's outfit.  It's not any more complex or ridiculous than his own getup with its zillion buckles 

If I finish this dissertation thing today I promise I will draw you an Anders in Howl's pinky white coat. Hey, Howl even has an earring!

[silver-crescent]

Wow the Anders Howl connection. Amazing. I absolutely loved that movie (and Howl's character) as well.

[silver-crescent]

Batteries wrote...

Speaking of being hunted, the templars should still have his phylactery in back Ferelden. I'm sure it won't take long for word to get aroud of what he did. I'm rather surprised he wasn't found within those years in Kirkwall, actually. I wish he would of made some sort of comment about being away from the circle for so many years in a row, even if he still is hiding.
I suppose being possessed and seeing mages treated like animals kinda puts a damper on that.

Maybe Justice prevents the phylactery voodoo from working? We never really get to know how exactly they work, but it must be magic, so a spirit has to have some effect on it.

[Dunizel]

Batteries wrote...

Speaking of being hunted, the templars should still have his phylactery in back Ferelden. I'm sure it won't take long for word to get aroud of what he did. I'm rather surprised he wasn't found within those years in Kirkwall, actually. I wish he would of made some sort of comment about being away from the circle for so many years in a row, even if he still is hiding.
I suppose being possessed and seeing mages treated like animals kinda puts a damper on that.

Well, I assume in Ferelden after the Blight and the Uldred incident the templars had already enough work and couldn't be bothered to travel to Kirkwall. Even though, now that you mention it, we met Anders just when he was being captured again, with the Blight still going on. But he wasn't being exactly subtle, running a clinic for refugees...he even met Strout (I doubt Alistair or Nate would say his whereabouts to the templars)

To be honest, the Wardens seems to have something big going on (I'm still wondering if these allies Nate mentions are intelligent darkspawn), and in the Ferelden they are worried about Orlais. Kirkwall to me seems a place abandoned to itself, Hellhole left alone, maybe they really don't want to get near that mess. 

[Jean]

silver-crescent wrote...

Batteries wrote...

Speaking of being hunted, the templars should still have his phylactery in back Ferelden. I'm sure it won't take long for word to get aroud of what he did. I'm rather surprised he wasn't found within those years in Kirkwall, actually. I wish he would of made some sort of comment about being away from the circle for so many years in a row, even if he still is hiding.
I suppose being possessed and seeing mages treated like animals kinda puts a damper on that.

Maybe Justice prevents the phylactery voodoo from working? We never really get to know how exactly they work, but it must be magic, so a spirit has to have some effect on it.

Wiki mentions they have a hot 'n cold effect, it glows more the closer they get to the mage in question.