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[Kim Shepard]

SurelyForth wrote...

It's emotional blackmail. If you refuse to distract the Grand Cleric because he won't tell you why, he rails on about how you can't say you love him if you despise his cause, because that's all he is. When you do accept, you can tell him you'll do it but you won't forget how he blackmailed you into it. I wouldn't use that word, but the moment I found out about how everything went down, that's all I could think of. He tricks Hawke into helping with the first part, and then he railroards her into the last thing. It's pretty manipulative and my Hawke thought it was patently unfair considering how much she'd done up until that point. She just wanted an explanation and she found out how quickly he could turn on her the moment he thought she wasn't with him 100%.

Not his best moment, tbh.

It's a little strange that he would just assume Hawke wouldn't help him if she knew what he was up to... for my FemHawke at least, that's not the case at all. But she would distract the Grand Cleric without knowing why, so I  won't be seeing this line in his friendship romance playthrough.

[Trophonius]

yukidama wrote...

The conversation about Karl is really touching. I guess since they're going the subjective sexuality route they wouldn't include it for a female Hawke, but it's really tragic. When I saw the scene in the gum people video with femHawke I was like "Man, this is so sad." but after I learned Karl had been Anders' lover I actually cried when  the scene played out in my game, listening to his voice, watching his expressions... It adds to the drama and sadness of that moment for me, you see it differently when he's killing a former lover to a friend.

Also, I want your glitch, Surely. Best foursome.

I agree. Everytime I do that quest, I'm always hoping the "Don't kill him" option leads to letting him live. Sadly, it doesn't. Anders will always try to suggest killing him because being made tranquil is like being given a death sentence. The conversations that follow are absolutely agonizing. You can feel the pain, anguish, and heartbreak in Anders' voice when he talks about his relationship with Karl and how templars didn't care that Karl was not only someone's son, but also someone's lover. It definitely plays differently when he's just "a friend" as opposed to a former lover. Especially when you learn that Karl is the reason Vengeance first appeared.

[SurelyForth]

stinaakim wrote...

Are you guys referring to a Anders-specific conversation Hawke has with Sebastian/Merril? If so, I missed it  People only talked about my relationship with Fenris when I romanced him. Anders was never mentioned by anyone but Varric.

When you talk to Sebastian at the end, if you have him at full Friendly, he'll tell Hawke that she should be Viscount and asks  who can do better by people- a man of faith or a prince. Then he hedges about something and starts talking about her and Anders and tells her to be careful. 

The Merrill thing is banter with Fenris. 

[Bruddajakka]

It might just be me but Anders does come across as a bit of an user in DA2. At least in regards to Hawke he just seems to assume he'll drop everything to help him. At least the other companions ask if they want help.

[maselphie]

Miri1984 wrote...

I mean "selfish?" - that's just... I don't even... he's doing the exact OPPOSITE of being selfish, unless you subscribe to the idea that he wants to be a martyr for his own glory and doesn't give a fig about the plight of the mages. If he was selfish he would have stuffed the cause and run off with Hawke in Act 2.

Blah, I just posted about this on the other page! He is acting out of selfishness. His self is Justice. He must do Justice -- he must be selfish.

But the line he gives before you kill him while not romancing him is about as selfish as it can get, and he makes you think that his punishment is actually his reward. Which is what he wanted. Which is why it makes more sense to punish him by keeping him alive.

I totally agree about the emotional blackmail. When I turned him down (not romancing) he was like "I WILL NEVER TRUST YOU AGAIN IS THIS WHAT YOU WANT?" And I'm like, whoa. So I totally HAVE to help you plant the bomb? The fact that he isn't as forgiving as when you're about to kill him ("... or worse, what if you wanted to help?") is conflicting to him turning on you if you don't help. Justice is burning him bad at that point, I imagine. In fact, he might have the most clarity right after the explosion. If indeed there can ever be "clarity" for him ever again.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

I'm not sure that selfish is the right word, but I wouldn't call Anders' actions selfless or noble either. It's what happens when fighting for an ideal becomes corrupted...victory at any cost. Vengeance, not compromise. Freedom or death, and Maker help those who get caught in the crossfire.

I do agree that his final request in 'Justice' turns into emotional blackmail if you try to refuse him. Whether or not you suspect what he's up to, he gets very angry and accusatory if you won't (blindly) help him, and this after he flat-out lied about what collecting those reagents were for. I too refused him, not romancing but fully friended, and he just loses it.

[katiebour]

I had Anders, Varric, and Aveline in party heading into the Docks fight at the end (post Chantry-destruction.) Some interesting dialogue (paraphrasing):

Aveline: Anders, after this is all over, you WILL turn yourself in and be punished for your crime.
Anders: Yes, I'm well aware of your committment to oppression.
Aveline: The law of the land, fairly applied to everyone.
Anders: That is something that I would actually love to see.

*Andersmooch*

Also note that technically, Anders never lies about the potion; he claims that it will 'separate' him and Justice, and since he expects to die, it's not really a lie.

Hawke: That would be worth anything.
Anders: I knew you'd understand, even if...
Hawke: What?
Anders: Nothing.

Anders considered Justice a "good spirit" who was corrupted into Vengeance by his own anger. If, after the course of so many years, the Justice-voice inside his head became more and more irrational (rather like Anders' own dialogue in Act III) and Anders felt responsible for it, that guilt could also be a driving force behind Anders' decisions. He says at one point "At least Justice will be free" when discussing his own death.

Anders seems to feel every death, every corruption, keenly. It kills him to hurt Hawke, to kill innocents, to be inadvertently responsible for corrupting Justice. He honestly feels like he has no choice if he wants to free the mages. And with Justice/Vengeance corrupting Anders in turn, freeing the mages is the one, only, driving force in his life. That's not to say that his actions don't haunt him at every turn.

In Act III when he started acting all distant and angry, blackmailing Hawke, I felt like Hawke was also caught in his downward spiral. Gone is the sweet, loving man who comforted her after her mother's death:

Anders: Your mother wouldn't have wanted you to blame yourself.
Hawke: You don't know my mother!
Anders: Yes, and I'm sorry that I never will.



After that, any time my Hawke got knocked unconscious in battle, I sort of pictured her rushing in, heedlessly, suffering so much that she plays recklessly with her own life. I picture him bandaging her up with an injury kit after battle, neither of them able to break down the wall between them, Anders gently applying some ointment, a bandage, and a little bit of healy magic as the only way he can express his love, Hawke looking at him with heartbreak in her eyes, willing him to turn back from his path.

Oh, Anders...*smooch*

After Kirkwall, my Hawke and Anders took a boat to some tiny Ferelden backwater, bought a little farm, and raised baby animals, kitties and children.

[karliahs]

God, Anders. Why are you so angsty?

and why do I love it and hate it at the same time?

[Jean]

I doubt Anders will do anything else but actively fight the templars with the rest of the mages if you let him live. He expected to die after blowing up the chantry, but his resolve changed if you ask him to come with you: "I'll fight the templars... Damned right I will!"
The delivery of the last part made me think so anyways.

Modifié par Batteries, 16 mars 2011 - 08:48 .

[maselphie]

Yes, he was quick to live, too. SO CONFUZZLED.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

katiebour wrote...

Also note that technically, Anders never lies about the potion; he claims that it will 'separate' him and Justice, and since he expects to die, it's not really a lie.
 

...it's a lie. He even *says* it's a lie. He admits he deceived you and that there's no potion. You can't sugar-coat it just because he expects to die. Either he believes telling you the truth will mean you won't help, or will actively *want* to help, he wants to keep you ignorant.

It depends on your/Hawke's point of view if that's underhanded or noble, but emotional blackmail is definitely *not* a smoochworthy act.

[YamiSnuffles]

I always get conflicted when I think about what Anders did. Not just the act itself, but how he felt about it. In the end, to me, it seemed like he accepted Justice's plan for a few reasons. Obviously it would start the revolution he desired. However, I think he was also really focused on freeing Justice. His guilt over what Justice has become is almost as prevalent as his anger over what's happening to mages. He mentions many, many times how bad he feels about what Justice became because of him. It's been a while since I beat the game, but I swear when you agree to help him with his Justice quest he goes on for a while about how even after they are dead, at least justice will always live on. At the time, I was like, "Okay, not comforting buddy" but I think he meant it as a way to reassure himself about what he was going to do. Since he doesn't expect to be spared, I think he decides to carry out the bombing at least in part to "free" Justice.

[nenosronhir]

Realistically, it's not just about wanting or not wanting to help, either. Although not an option in-game for obvious reasons until the deed is done, the possibility of Hawke being appalled by his idea and actively doing something to betray him (giving him to the Templars, killing him) is too great a risk.

It is definitely betrayal of a sort, but he's not doing it with the specific intention to hurt Hawke, though he knows it's likely an inevitable consequence of his actions (and why he warns Hawke so often that he will hurt him/her).

Playing a rogue who's BFFs with everyone (except Merrill T_T) and despite her feelings of betrayal, she's going to let Anders live because death will change nothing, and she's seen first hand how death only leaves an empty, wanting space behind(Quentin and Leandra. She regrets killing that bastard and is the one mage EVER that she would have loved to see made Tranquil in a fit of hypocrisy). Anders' death would mean he can do nothing to help or hinder what he's started, cannot experience his regrets, cannot live to see what his actions bring about.

He started this, damnit, he needs to be at her side to see it through. XD My apostate, meanwhile, takes far less offense at being used in such a way, and cheers the downfall of the Chantry like woah. Little bit of lamenting over Elthina, but that old bag deserved it for not doing anything to STOP this madness beforehand. "Plenty of innocent magefolk have been put through the ringer, lets see the other side learn to mourn their losses as keenly as we do," would be one of her thoughts on the matter. And then she'd instantly regret saying that out loud. XD;;

[Entranced Zeda]

Anders blew up the Chantry with poop.

Sela petrae is crystallized urine and fecal matter, and drakestone is fewmets (dragon dung).

A wizard did it.

[rueless]

Entranced Zeda wrote...

Anders blew up the Chantry with poop.

Sela petrae is crystallized urine and fecal matter, and drakestone is fewmets (dragon dung).

A wizard did it.

Yes, otherwise known as fertilizer- which is used for explosives all the time. No news there.

[rueless]

Anders lied to get my Hawke to help him and then tried the emotional blackmail thing when she got suspicious, but in retrospect he did warn me repeatedly that things would end badly. Is it fair that he used her? No, it sucks, but honestly if she would have just listened to him the first time instead of doing the codependent "he's just saying that cuse he's hurting" thing some of that pain might have been averted. So at least in those warnings, Anders shows that he's honest. In my playthrough I used him too because I started out romancing Fenris, but after I saw the scene where he doesn't comfort me after my mother is gone I went back and got with Anders, did a replay of the mother quest and then let Anders say all the nice things he said. He was a comfort until he went loonie toons.
I too let him live- but I thought long and hard about killing him. When he came back I was surprisingly pleased, but I still sent him away after the battle. The Epilogue stated that he was by my hero's side still, but if I had the power to change that, I would have. He needed to get gone after how it all fell apart. I hope I don't go into DA3 with a history that hints that I was ok with his craziness!

[Dunhart]

Anders really started playing hard to like in act 3 when he went to angsty overdrive and wouldn't shut up about the whole mage-issue (almost every line of dialogue or panty banter has to do with it). It does make sense with the whole possession thing, however, and I'm tempted to rank the romance with him as the most emotionally-engaging story in recent history because of his actions in the finale. It does ask for a LOT of forgiveness and understanding to keep him around after what he does. It's like being in love with a terrorist.

[Rinji the Bearded]

rueless wrote...

Anders lied to get my Hawke to help him and then tried the emotional blackmail thing when she got suspicious, but in retrospect he did warn me repeatedly that things would end badly. Is it fair that he used her? No, it sucks, but honestly if she would have just listened to him the first time instead of doing the codependent "he's just saying that cuse he's hurting" thing some of that pain might have been averted. So at least in those warnings, Anders shows that he's honest. In my playthrough I used him too because I started out romancing Fenris, but after I saw the scene where he doesn't comfort me after my mother is gone I went back and got with Anders, did a replay of the mother quest and then let Anders say all the nice things he said. He was a comfort until he went loonie toons.
I too let him live- but I thought long and hard about killing him. When he came back I was surprisingly pleased, but I still sent him away after the battle. The Epilogue stated that he was by my hero's side still, but if I had the power to change that, I would have. He needed to get gone after how it all fell apart. I hope I don't go into DA3 with a history that hints that I was ok with his craziness!

You don't have to  be okay with it, I don't think.  My Hawke wanted to keep him alive to see that he feels every death that is caused in this conflict, and so that he may fight for freedom and defend the Mages as they have their uprisings instead of becoming merely a martyr.  It's a poetic justice for him.  I really hope she got the time to yell at him for not trusting her.

My Hawke was already so emotionally damaged at that point by everything, she's basically got the same idea for herself, so she ran off with him to make sure this happened.  Not exactly very healthy, but she feels as if justice will be served all around.  Either way Hawke sided, there are going to be people out there that paint her as a villain.  But if that means giving Mages the same kinds of freedom that everyone else gets to enjoy, she's willing to take that chance, even with Anders at her side.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 16 mars 2011 - 01:54 .

[Aithieel]

Playing as mage makes it easier to understand his deed.

[Rinji the Bearded]

lamppostinwinter wrote...

Strangely, I felt guilty and selfish for keeping Anders alive. His plan of Justice included his death for the justice of the innocent harmed by his actions. I almost felt like I betrayed Anders by NOT killing him, as it was making him veer from his overall cause. Forcing him to live with knowing those he killed had no true Justice will surely drive him even deeper in to madness, and I did that.

I have a lot of issues with what he did in the end, but when it comes down to it I agree that if change was going to come their was no other way and he had to seperate all his morality to do what he did. Even from the beginning it as if he is repenting for what he knows he must do by healing all those people.

The emotional abuse that comes with questioning his actions during the "Justice" quest was more heartbreaking than anything to me. It didn't really make me angry, it just made me worried about his decent into madness. That he had become so overcome by Justice that he didn't even have control around the only light in his life. And being that near the end you are the only thing person he truely has left to completely confide in; it is pretty selfless that he doesn't tell Hawke what he is going to do to just to save her from the guilt and struggle that he is going through and having suffering through it alone. He doesn't want to give her the opportunity to help with something he knows could drive her into the same madness he suffers with.

Breaks my heart. EVERYTIME.

I think he did want to die then, and it was evident by him giving out all of his belongings and what not.  He knew he was going to be facing death for what he had done.  My Mage Hawke was just a little more stubborn than that.  She had blood on her hands, too.  If she had killed him, he'd be simply that -- dead.  Justice would be free, but with all the memories of Anders with him.  I think that justice could be served better by making Anders face the war that he started.

No half measures, Anders.  You said it yourself.

[Eydris Ivo]

RinjiRenee wrote...

lamppostinwinter wrote...

Strangely, I felt guilty and selfish for keeping Anders alive. His plan of Justice included his death for the justice of the innocent harmed by his actions. I almost felt like I betrayed Anders by NOT killing him, as it was making him veer from his overall cause. Forcing him to live with knowing those he killed had no true Justice will surely drive him even deeper in to madness, and I did that.

I have a lot of issues with what he did in the end, but when it comes down to it I agree that if change was going to come their was no other way and he had to seperate all his morality to do what he did. Even from the beginning it as if he is repenting for what he knows he must do by healing all those people.

The emotional abuse that comes with questioning his actions during the "Justice" quest was more heartbreaking than anything to me. It didn't really make me angry, it just made me worried about his decent into madness. That he had become so overcome by Justice that he didn't even have control around the only light in his life. And being that near the end you are the only thing person he truely has left to completely confide in; it is pretty selfless that he doesn't tell Hawke what he is going to do to just to save her from the guilt and struggle that he is going through and having suffering through it alone. He doesn't want to give her the opportunity to help with something he knows could drive her into the same madness he suffers with.

Breaks my heart. EVERYTIME.

I think he did want to die then, and it was evident by him giving out all of his belongings and what not.  He knew he was going to be facing death for what he had done.  My Mage Hawke was just a little more stubborn than that.  She had blood on her hands, too.  If she had killed him, he'd be simply that -- dead.  Justice would be free, but with all the memories of Anders with him.  I think that justice could be served better by making Anders face the war that he started.

No half measures, Anders.  You said it yourself.

Exactly. I also got the feeling that he was surprised and almost a bit relieved when you told him to stay with you. I think he honestly believed that even when you played a mage, that you might hate him for what he did.

[Sarah1281]

So if you don't distract the cleric for him does that end the romance? As a friend-romance of course I would but I think a rival-romance might not be too sure about that.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Sarah1281 wrote...

So if you don't distract the cleric for him does that end the romance? As a friend-romance of course I would but I think a rival-romance might not be too sure about that.

It doesn't.  I think he'll get angry at you, but that's about it.

[SurelyForth]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

So if you don't distract the cleric for him does that end the romance? As a friend-romance of course I would but I think a rival-romance might not be too sure about that.

It doesn't.  I think he'll get angry at you, but that's about it.

That conversation ends with "I've always been alone. I just forgot it for awhile." So dramatic, our Anders.