57020 réponses à ce sujet

[Aynslie]

ipgd wrote...

Aynslie wrote...

In Awakening Anders was an adolescent when captured and brought to the Circle for the first time.  So the first 12-13 years he was free.  When aging Awakenings Anders we have to keep this in mind, hes spent close to half his life outside the circle.  I believe in DAII they changed this tho?  Made him 6 when dragged to the Circle.   But when making Awakenings Anders they had in mind a mage who had a good idea of the outside world before being locked in the Circle.

I don't think they ever mention the age he was taken to the circle in either DA:A or DA2. It was established in the pre-released short story as 12.

This is Anders Bio from Bioware's Awakenings website:

"Many mages chafe under the Chantry's control, and Anders is no exception. Although most mages are brought into the Circle at a young age, Anders was an adolescent by the time the templars found him: he had an understanding of the outside world and knew full well what he was missing. To him, the walls of the Circle Tower were nothing more than a prison. A born troublemaker, Anders repeatedly broke out of the tower, displaying great ingenuity. But for all his resourcefulness and talent, he could never quite elude the templars. It's a lucky thing that Anders despises blood mages as much as the Chantry does, else he might have been executed as a suspected maleficarum long ago. In truth, all he wants is freedom--well, freedom, a good meal, and a pretty girl on his arm. That's not too much to ask, is it?"

Adolescence is roughly between 11 and 19 years old.  Someone who has undergone puberty but has not reached maturity.  Saying Anders was 12 is actually shooting for a young Anders being taken to the Circle.  He could very well have been 16 when they brought him in the first time.

Modifié par Aynslie, 01 avril 2011 - 05:49 .

[Ninche]

Village Idiot wrote...

silver-crescent wrote...

Did anyone ever read the Hohlbein "Anders" books? They're really weird German fantasy/sci fi. I still have them in my bookshelf, so now whenever I look at it I see this



Taking fandom to a whole new level.

I SPY MURAKAMI ON YOUR BOOKSHELF!!!!!:wub:

Sorry, I am such a raging fangirl for him and I just had to compliment you on your choice in literature.  You win the internet for the day! 

Haha I have Kafka on the shore and the wind up bird chronicles as well ^^

What are the Anders books about?

[Ambeth]

Aynslie wrote...

ipgd wrote...

Aynslie wrote...

Well we know that Sebastian is 22 at the beginning of DAII and 28 by the end. I pegged him as the youngest companion (besides Carver/Bethany) and age the rest using him as a "must be older than" starting point. I easily see Anders being 25 in the beginning, maybe 26, add 6 years and I get 31-32 years old at end-game. So by the time Cassandra is interrogating Varric I place Anders at 35-36, with Hawke just a few years younger.

Wasn't Sebastian 28 in act II? He says something like he hadn't been to Starkhaven in 15 years in an early conversation, and he mentions being given to the chantry at 13.

ah I think you are right!  I got my acts mixed up.  okay so all ages bumped 3 years    That does make Anders old.  

Edit.  See now I'm just getting confused...I must rethink my thinking here....

He started using a bow at 13.  In Act 3 he will mention being in the chantry for 15 years.

He ALSO talks about drinking and having a long string of lovers before entering the chantry (party banter to Isabela) so I don't see him entering the chantry before age 18 or 20.  Making him 33-35 in Act 3 and 27-29 in Act 1.

[CatOfEvilGenius]

Anyone compile a list of reasons why a good, decent person would stay with Anders after his heinous act of terrorism? I adore the character, and find him very tragic rather than irredeemably evil, but can't justify not killing him on the spot, romance notwithstanding. The only half-assed reason I can think to keep him around is to assume he's seriously mentally ill, and thus not wholly responsible. In game dialogue tells us he has memory lapses and increasingly frequent loss of control. So let's stick him in a nice padded room next to Bartrand when this is all over and help him get better. I have played a nasty blood mage who was really after Vengeance, and pushed Anders deeper into madness, but that just wasn't as emotionally satisfying, since I prefer good characters. I'm sure this has been discussed, but I'm not going to read 500 posts, sorry. That's why I wonder if there's a list somewhere.

[ipgd]

Aynslie wrote...

This is Anders Bio from Bioware's Awakenings website:

"Many mages chafe under the Chantry's control, and Anders is no exception. Although most mages are brought into the Circle at a young age, Anders was an adolescent by the time the templars found him: he had an understanding of the outside world and knew full well what he was missing. To him, the walls of the Circle Tower were nothing more than a prison. A born troublemaker, Anders repeatedly broke out of the tower, displaying great ingenuity. But for all his resourcefulness and talent, he could never quite elude the templars. It's a lucky thing that Anders despises blood mages as much as the Chantry does, else he might have been executed as a suspected maleficarum long ago. In truth, all he wants is freedom--well, freedom, a good meal, and a pretty girl on his arm. That's not too much to ask, is it?"

Adolescence is roughly between 11 and 19 years old.  Someone who has undergone puberty but has not reached maturity.  Saying Anders was 12 is actually shooting for a young Anders being taken to the Circle.  He could very well have been 16 when they brought him in the first time.

That'd fit with the 12 from the short story. Where is this contradicted in DA2?

[Threeparts]

Aynslie wrote...

In Awakening Anders was an adolescent when captured and brought to the Circle for the first time.  So the first 12-13 years he was free.  When aging Awakenings Anders we have to keep this in mind, hes spent close to half his life outside the circle.  I believe in DAII they changed this tho?  Made him 6 when dragged to the Circle.   But when making Awakenings Anders they had in mind a mage who had a good idea of the outside world before being locked in the Circle.

Twelve when he went to the Circle, certainly. How much of the world does a 12-year-old from a "ratspit village" actually know of the world? He wouldn't have any of the left experiences at that point that he displays knowledge about in Awakening, even accounting for a more sexually liberal tower.
He knows how to behave himself in cities, he's been boozing and whoring, he knows how to interact with other adults outside of a restrictive academic setting.
That's why I place him at 28 in Awakening - he's had to learn all this while on the run, so the older he is at that point, the more chance he's had to learn about the world compared to a 22- or 24-year-old.

I know it's all subjective at the point - without any Word of God we are free to make our own interpretations. It just makes me sadface when people consider someone in their mid-to-late 30s to be old. 

[Ambeth]

CatOfEvilGenius wrote...

Anyone compile a list of reasons why a good, decent person would stay with Anders after his heinous act of terrorism? I adore the character, and find him very tragic rather than irredeemably evil, but can't justify not killing him on the spot, romance notwithstanding. The only half-assed reason I can think to keep him around is to assume he's seriously mentally ill, and thus not wholly responsible. In game dialogue tells us he has memory lapses and increasingly frequent loss of control. So let's stick him in a nice padded room next to Bartrand when this is all over and help him get better. I have played a nasty blood mage who was really after Vengeance, and pushed Anders deeper into madness, but that just wasn't as emotionally satisfying, since I prefer good characters. I'm sure this has been discussed, but I'm not going to read 500 posts, sorry. That's why I wonder if there's a list somewhere.

Because someone agrees with him?  The system IS broken and there is no compromise?  Personally, I have trouble with the fact he doesn't have a plan for 'after', but simply blows up the Chantry in hopes SOMEONE ELSE will come up with a better solution.  He doesn't seem to even consider that the final result of his actions could be a system that is even worse.

[YamiSnuffles]

CatOfEvilGenius wrote...

Anyone compile a list of reasons why a good, decent person would stay with Anders after his heinous act of terrorism? I adore the character, and find him very tragic rather than irredeemably evil, but can't justify not killing him on the spot, romance notwithstanding. The only half-assed reason I can think to keep him around is to assume he's seriously mentally ill, and thus not wholly responsible. In game dialogue tells us he has memory lapses and increasingly frequent loss of control. So let's stick him in a nice padded room next to Bartrand when this is all over and help him get better. I have played a nasty blood mage who was really after Vengeance, and pushed Anders deeper into madness, but that just wasn't as emotionally satisfying, since I prefer good characters. I'm sure this has been discussed, but I'm not going to read 500 posts, sorry. That's why I wonder if there's a list somewhere.

I don't think there is a list anywhere. I believe the most common answer is that if he lives he can actually do something to fix what he's done. I believe Hepler commented that Anders saw it as Justice to give his life after the bombing, but that letting him live is a sort of poetic justice. If he's killed, he pays with his life. If he lives, he can actually work to make things better and he'll have to see the results of his actions. In the most immediate sense, he was the reason Meredith called for the Circle to be Annuled right then, so the least he could do is fight at the side of the mages he'd doomed.

[silver-crescent]

Village Idiot wrote...
I SPY MURAKAMI ON YOUR BOOKSHELF!!!!!:wub:

Sorry, I am such a raging fangirl for him and I just had to compliment you on your choice in literature.  You win the internet for the day! 

haha, thanks. I'm a fan too. The Wind-up Bird Chronicle is my favorite.

[Ninche]

CatOfEvilGenius wrote...

Anyone compile a list of reasons why a good, decent person would stay with Anders after his heinous act of terrorism? I adore the character, and find him very tragic rather than irredeemably evil, but can't justify not killing him on the spot, romance notwithstanding. The only half-assed reason I can think to keep him around is to assume he's seriously mentally ill, and thus not wholly responsible. In game dialogue tells us he has memory lapses and increasingly frequent loss of control. So let's stick him in a nice padded room next to Bartrand when this is all over and help him get better. I have played a nasty blood mage who was really after Vengeance, and pushed Anders deeper into madness, but that just wasn't as emotionally satisfying, since I prefer good characters. I'm sure this has been discussed, but I'm not going to read 500 posts, sorry. That's why I wonder if there's a list somewhere.

Well I think, mainly, you won't change anything by killing him and it's just a pointless act of vengeance - sort of puts you right next to him. If you want to punish him it makes more sense to let him live and be tormented by his guilt until the day he dies - and he does feel incredible pain and guilt for what he's done. 

And also, some of us here actually agree that what he did was needed in order for any hope of change. If he hadn't done it, mages would have either got exterminated or their silent torment would have continued with everyone pretending things are okay and there is peace and equality among everyone. 

[Purposeof-Flight]

But the results of Anders' actions are exactly what he wanted...all the Circles fell and the Chantry lost control over both mage and templar.
Personally, I always keep him alive because I just can't imagine Anders as dead. But I don't see how he "deals" with the consequences of his actions when what he wanted....happened. And it's not like Justice is vanishing anytime soon, so....

[Kawamura]

CatOfEvilGenius wrote...

Anyone compile a list of reasons why a good, decent person would stay with Anders after his heinous act of terrorism? I adore the character, and find him very tragic rather than irredeemably evil, but can't justify not killing him on the spot, romance notwithstanding. The only half-assed reason I can think to keep him around is to assume he's seriously mentally ill, and thus not wholly responsible. In game dialogue tells us he has memory lapses and increasingly frequent loss of control. So let's stick him in a nice padded room next to Bartrand when this is all over and help him get better. I have played a nasty blood mage who was really after Vengeance, and pushed Anders deeper into madness, but that just wasn't as emotionally satisfying, since I prefer good characters. I'm sure this has been discussed, but I'm not going to read 500 posts, sorry. That's why I wonder if there's a list somewhere.

Because he's possibly the only "family" you've got left at that point if you're romancing him. Because he's a friend and you know he's spent most of his time (that youv'e known him) being a generally good guy.

I generally thought a person was the sum of more than just one action. It makes life complicated when there's one terrible act done out of a desire to do good weighed against a bunch of good acts. Doesn't a good, decent person attempt to see the whole of others?  And tries to act with mercy? Killing him wouldn't do much good, I imagine. And you've possibly been sleeping with this man for years, you'd have a hard time seperating that guy and the guy that did something bad. Because there isn't really a seperation, I imagine.

Modifié par Kawamura, 01 avril 2011 - 06:00 .

[Aynslie]

ipgd wrote...

Aynslie wrote...

This is Anders Bio from Bioware's Awakenings website:

"Many mages chafe under the Chantry's control, and Anders is no exception. Although most mages are brought into the Circle at a young age, Anders was an adolescent by the time the templars found him: he had an understanding of the outside world and knew full well what he was missing. To him, the walls of the Circle Tower were nothing more than a prison. A born troublemaker, Anders repeatedly broke out of the tower, displaying great ingenuity. But for all his resourcefulness and talent, he could never quite elude the templars. It's a lucky thing that Anders despises blood mages as much as the Chantry does, else he might have been executed as a suspected maleficarum long ago. In truth, all he wants is freedom--well, freedom, a good meal, and a pretty girl on his arm. That's not too much to ask, is it?"

Adolescence is roughly between 11 and 19 years old.  Someone who has undergone puberty but has not reached maturity.  Saying Anders was 12 is actually shooting for a young Anders being taken to the Circle.  He could very well have been 16 when they brought him in the first time.

That'd fit with the 12 from the short story. Where is this contradicted in DA2?

Anders gets defensive about mages being taken from their families before they even learn their letters, Hawke can ask if he is speaking from experience.  Also the codex says he was just a boy during his first escape attempt, suggests that he was much younger than an adolescent when taken to the Circle.  Unfortunately I can't get on my DAII game for specifics (bf is on Call of Duty, pfft!) His dialog and codex is suggestive of him being brought to the Circle at a younger age, imo.

Edit:  The codex says he was taken from his family when his power manifested.  And that his first escape attempt was when he was still just a boy.  Add the dialog where he is ranting about kids being taken when before they learn their letters (I figure he means to read) and that makes him taken to the Circle at a younger age than stated in Awakenings.  And I believe the average age of power manifesting is around 6 or so.

Modifié par Aynslie, 01 avril 2011 - 06:10 .

[shiba5]

Kawamura wrote...

CatOfEvilGenius wrote...

Anyone compile a list of reasons why a good, decent person would stay with Anders after his heinous act of terrorism? I adore the character, and find him very tragic rather than irredeemably evil, but can't justify not killing him on the spot, romance notwithstanding. The only half-assed reason I can think to keep him around is to assume he's seriously mentally ill, and thus not wholly responsible. In game dialogue tells us he has memory lapses and increasingly frequent loss of control. So let's stick him in a nice padded room next to Bartrand when this is all over and help him get better. I have played a nasty blood mage who was really after Vengeance, and pushed Anders deeper into madness, but that just wasn't as emotionally satisfying, since I prefer good characters. I'm sure this has been discussed, but I'm not going to read 500 posts, sorry. That's why I wonder if there's a list somewhere.

Because he's possibly the only "family" you've got left at that point if you're romancing him. Because he's a friend and you know he's spent most of his time (that youv'e known him) being a generally good guy.

I generally thought a person was the sum of more than just one action. It makes life complicated when there's one terrible act done out of a desire to do good weighed against a bunch of good acts. Doesn't a good, decent person attempt to see the whole of others?  And tries to act with mercy?

Because I found the Grand Cleric, the Templars, the Circle, and the Divine irritating as hell and wanted to tear down the system myself. He just did it for me.

(Oh yeah, and he looks like my hubby so no way am I mardaring him.)

Modifié par shiba5, 01 avril 2011 - 06:04 .

[Sialater]

Ambeth wrote...

CatOfEvilGenius wrote...

Anyone compile a list of reasons why a good, decent person would stay with Anders after his heinous act of terrorism? I adore the character, and find him very tragic rather than irredeemably evil, but can't justify not killing him on the spot, romance notwithstanding. The only half-assed reason I can think to keep him around is to assume he's seriously mentally ill, and thus not wholly responsible. In game dialogue tells us he has memory lapses and increasingly frequent loss of control. So let's stick him in a nice padded room next to Bartrand when this is all over and help him get better. I have played a nasty blood mage who was really after Vengeance, and pushed Anders deeper into madness, but that just wasn't as emotionally satisfying, since I prefer good characters. I'm sure this has been discussed, but I'm not going to read 500 posts, sorry. That's why I wonder if there's a list somewhere.

Because someone agrees with him?  The system IS broken and there is no compromise?  Personally, I have trouble with the fact he doesn't have a plan for 'after', but simply blows up the Chantry in hopes SOMEONE ELSE will come up with a better solution.  He doesn't seem to even consider that the final result of his actions could be a system that is even worse.

To be fair, he never claimed to be a tactical genius. 

[Kawamura]

shiba5 wrote...

Kawamura wrote...

CatOfEvilGenius wrote...

Anyone compile a list of reasons why a good, decent person would stay with Anders after his heinous act of terrorism? I adore the character, and find him very tragic rather than irredeemably evil, but can't justify not killing him on the spot, romance notwithstanding. The only half-assed reason I can think to keep him around is to assume he's seriously mentally ill, and thus not wholly responsible. In game dialogue tells us he has memory lapses and increasingly frequent loss of control. So let's stick him in a nice padded room next to Bartrand when this is all over and help him get better. I have played a nasty blood mage who was really after Vengeance, and pushed Anders deeper into madness, but that just wasn't as emotionally satisfying, since I prefer good characters. I'm sure this has been discussed, but I'm not going to read 500 posts, sorry. That's why I wonder if there's a list somewhere.

Because he's possibly the only "family" you've got left at that point if you're romancing him. Because he's a friend and you know he's spent most of his time (that youv'e known him) being a generally good guy.

I generally thought a person was the sum of more than just one action. It makes life complicated when there's one terrible act done out of a desire to do good weighed against a bunch of good acts. Doesn't a good, decent person attempt to see the whole of others?  And tries to act with mercy?

Because I found the Grand Cleric, the Templars, the Circle, and the Divine irritating as hell and wanted to tear down the system myself. He just did it for me.

Or that.

[ipgd]

CatOfEvilGenius wrote...

Anyone compile a list of reasons why a good, decent person would stay with Anders after his heinous act of terrorism? I adore the character, and find him very tragic rather than irredeemably evil, but can't justify not killing him on the spot, romance notwithstanding. The only half-assed reason I can think to keep him around is to assume he's seriously mentally ill, and thus not wholly responsible. In game dialogue tells us he has memory lapses and increasingly frequent loss of control. So let's stick him in a nice padded room next to Bartrand when this is all over and help him get better. I have played a nasty blood mage who was really after Vengeance, and pushed Anders deeper into madness, but that just wasn't as emotionally satisfying, since I prefer good characters. I'm sure this has been discussed, but I'm not going to read 500 posts, sorry. That's why I wonder if there's a list somewhere.

It's generally pretty difficult to outright kill people you're in love with. It would be quite a bit more more difficult for Hawke than clicking a button in a game to kill a fictional character, if you're looking at it from a roleplaying perspective.

What he did doesn't really have to be justified (though it certainly can be, considering how many revolutions are started by acts of terrorism and glorified after the fact provided they're successful). Yeah, he probably deserves to die, but Hawke wouldn't have to be a bad person to not be able to kill him. Just human.

[leggywillow]

CatOfEvilGenius wrote...

Anyone compile a list of reasons why a good, decent person would stay with Anders after his heinous act of terrorism? I adore the character, and find him very tragic rather than irredeemably evil, but can't justify not killing him on the spot, romance notwithstanding.

We haven't compiled a list, but we've certainly discussed it.  I'll give you my (very slightly insane) Hawke's personal list:

1. Tall, rangy, handsome hot-headed revolutionary with blonde hair and warm brown eyes... it'd be a shame to kill that, wouldn't it?
2. Likes KITTENS
3. Fabulous boots
4. Once you go mage, you never go back

Cassandra: Are you telling me that is why she spared the mage?
Varric: ::shrug:: She was batsh** insane.  Have you even been listening to the story?

LOL, I'm kidding, I'm just a bad source for serious discussion at the moment.

[Aynslie]

Sialater wrote...

Ambeth wrote...

CatOfEvilGenius wrote...

Anyone compile a list of reasons why a good, decent person would stay with Anders after his heinous act of terrorism? I adore the character, and find him very tragic rather than irredeemably evil, but can't justify not killing him on the spot, romance notwithstanding. The only half-assed reason I can think to keep him around is to assume he's seriously mentally ill, and thus not wholly responsible. In game dialogue tells us he has memory lapses and increasingly frequent loss of control. So let's stick him in a nice padded room next to Bartrand when this is all over and help him get better. I have played a nasty blood mage who was really after Vengeance, and pushed Anders deeper into madness, but that just wasn't as emotionally satisfying, since I prefer good characters. I'm sure this has been discussed, but I'm not going to read 500 posts, sorry. That's why I wonder if there's a list somewhere.

Because someone agrees with him?  The system IS broken and there is no compromise?  Personally, I have trouble with the fact he doesn't have a plan for 'after', but simply blows up the Chantry in hopes SOMEONE ELSE will come up with a better solution.  He doesn't seem to even consider that the final result of his actions could be a system that is even worse.

To be fair, he never claimed to be a tactical genius. 

It is true, he never claims that! lol

[Camenae]

CatOfEvilGenius wrote...

Anyone compile a list of reasons why a good, decent person would stay with Anders after his heinous act of terrorism? I adore the character, and find him very tragic rather than irredeemably evil, but can't justify not killing him on the spot, romance notwithstanding. The only half-assed reason I can think to keep him around is to assume he's seriously mentally ill, and thus not wholly responsible. In game dialogue tells us he has memory lapses and increasingly frequent loss of control. So let's stick him in a nice padded room next to Bartrand when this is all over and help him get better. I have played a nasty blood mage who was really after Vengeance, and pushed Anders deeper into madness, but that just wasn't as emotionally satisfying, since I prefer good characters. I'm sure this has been discussed, but I'm not going to read 500 posts, sorry. That's why I wonder if there's a list somewhere.

Hmm, well for me, not killing Anders =/= staying with him. 

I did romance Anders, and I told him to come with me to make things right (and then I chafed at my in-game powerlessness to speak up and disagree, when he leapt up and said ecstatically something like, "You agree with what I did? Awesome! See it's all good right?").  However in the Gallows courtyard, I broke up with him.  

My Hawke couldn't kill him with her own hands because she loved him for years, and I'm still on the fence about whether or not I would have allowed Meredith or Sebastian to kill him instead.  But there's no way she can stay with someone after he does what Anders did.  She will never forgive and she will never forget.

[DeaHamlet]

This thread loves to make me cry.
Whoever posted this, I can't remember... but WOWza awesomeness! I feel now inspired to write a similar thing for my two canons.
http://www.fanfictio...oads_of_Destiny

This whole thread has been very inspiring to me, sadly right now the story in my head is for Chani, who is great friends with Anders, but in love with Fenris. I can't wait to write a scene where Chani explains to Anders why Grace has to go back to the circle. It oughta be good.
Sometimes I feel that the rivalry/friendship points just don't give enough story as a conversation with the person giving you those points would. It'd be nice if they ALWAYS commented rather than just sometimes (silence and then +10 rivalry feels weird!).

[Ashwraith]

CatOfEvilGenius wrote...

Anyone compile a list of reasons why a good, decent person would stay with Anders after his heinous act of terrorism?

I would tell you, but everyone else just made the arguments I was going to. More eloquently than I would have, even.
So I think instead I'll just... um. Go over here and sit in the corner. >.>

Camenae wrote...

 She will never forgive and she will never forget.

So, your Hawke is Anonymous?

Modifié par Ashwraith, 01 avril 2011 - 06:10 .

[NamiraWilhelm]

If you import from a mage warden into DA2, does Anders ever mention that he once travelled with Hawkes cousin?

[Threeparts]

Adding to the above reasons: killing him would martyr him, and may inspire others to follow his example. Even if I were a pro-templar player, I'd want to restore order and then give him a very public trial and execution. All by the book, just to show that justice had been done.

As an actual pro-mage player, my Hawke wanted to keep him alive through the following fight as, for one thing, he's a damned fine healer and taking down Templars and Meredith without him would be extra difficult. He's also a rallying point for the mages that both he and my Hawke want to free, and he has useful contacts and experience. She also loves him, and couldn't bring herself to execute him just like that.

My Hawke certainly isn't happy about the big boom, but she knows his reasons and after knowing him for six years, she has picked up on his philosophy, and knows what he's set in motion will change the world if they succeed. She'll yell at him later, but for now there's more important things to do.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Because Hawke is not a shining example of moral uprightness either?

Man he/she killed a bunch of people that were just trying to get along and do their job... Those poor, poor mercenaries.