57020 réponses à ce sujet

[cleosilver]

CatOfEvilGenius wrote...

Anyone compile a list of reasons why a good, decent person would stay with Anders after his heinous act of terrorism? I adore the character, and find him very tragic rather than irredeemably evil, but can't justify not killing him on the spot, romance notwithstanding. The only half-assed reason I can think to keep him around is to assume he's seriously mentally ill, and thus not wholly responsible. In game dialogue tells us he has memory lapses and increasingly frequent loss of control. So let's stick him in a nice padded room next to Bartrand when this is all over and help him get better. I have played a nasty blood mage who was really after Vengeance, and pushed Anders deeper into madness, but that just wasn't as emotionally satisfying, since I prefer good characters. I'm sure this has been discussed, but I'm not going to read 500 posts, sorry. That's why I wonder if there's a list somewhere.

Because killing him is vengeance while getting him to help protect the people he's endangered is Justice

[silver-crescent]

Ninche wrote...

Haha I have Kafka on the shore and the wind up bird chronicles as well ^^

What are the Anders books about?

They're really weird, it's about this boy named Anders who goes on a plane trip and crashes in the middle of a strange storm and ends up in what looks like a war ravaged city hidden between some mountains and then basically starts meeting progressively crazier and crazier stuff, like a medieval-esque civlization of antropomorphic people who live in the remains of the city, and they are hunted by some sort of slaver mechs who seem to be controlled by "normal" humans...

The plot is interesting, but really convoluted, and I don't really remember the details since I gave up halfway through the third book years ago. I do wonder what was up with that world, but that Anders is SUCH an annoying character I just couldn't keep reading  He seemed to escape near death situations every 5 minutes <_<

[Sialater]

Aynslie wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Ambeth wrote...

CatOfEvilGenius wrote...

Anyone compile a list of reasons why a good, decent person would stay with Anders after his heinous act of terrorism? I adore the character, and find him very tragic rather than irredeemably evil, but can't justify not killing him on the spot, romance notwithstanding. The only half-assed reason I can think to keep him around is to assume he's seriously mentally ill, and thus not wholly responsible. In game dialogue tells us he has memory lapses and increasingly frequent loss of control. So let's stick him in a nice padded room next to Bartrand when this is all over and help him get better. I have played a nasty blood mage who was really after Vengeance, and pushed Anders deeper into madness, but that just wasn't as emotionally satisfying, since I prefer good characters. I'm sure this has been discussed, but I'm not going to read 500 posts, sorry. That's why I wonder if there's a list somewhere.

Because someone agrees with him?  The system IS broken and there is no compromise?  Personally, I have trouble with the fact he doesn't have a plan for 'after', but simply blows up the Chantry in hopes SOMEONE ELSE will come up with a better solution.  He doesn't seem to even consider that the final result of his actions could be a system that is even worse.

To be fair, he never claimed to be a tactical genius. 

It is true, he never claims that! lol

It's not like Garrus was planning this shindig, after all. 

[shiba5]

silver-crescent wrote...

Ninche wrote...

Haha I have Kafka on the shore and the wind up bird chronicles as well ^^

What are the Anders books about?

They're really weird, it's about this boy named Anders who goes on a plane trip and crashes in the middle of a strange storm and ends up in what looks like a war ravaged city hidden between some mountains and then basically starts meeting progressively crazier and crazier stuff, like a medieval-esque civlization of antropomorphic people who live in the remains of the city, and they are hunted by some sort of slaver mechs who seem to be controlled by "normal" humans...

The plot is interesting, but really convoluted, and I don't really remember the details since I gave up halfway through the third book years ago. I do wonder what was up with that world, but that Anders is SUCH an annoying character I just couldn't keep reading  He seemed to escape near death situations every 5 minutes <_<

Are there monster closets?

[Thaedriel]

Oops, double-posted - see below for the one with the quote. Sorry! Internet is broken.

Modifié par Thaedriel, 01 avril 2011 - 06:13 .

[nodice]

Threeparts wrote...

Really? I had no idea abut Zevran's age, I always placed him in mid- to late-30s.

Me too. I actually thought he should be older because he's extremely experienced sexually. Also, it's kinda hot he's an older elf who seduces young wardens, ahem. But, unfortunately Wynne says to Zev in some banter (magical bosom?) "I could be your grandmother" <_< Still, Zev being under 30 is unacceptable.

[Sialater]

CatOfEvilGenius wrote...

Anyone compile a list of reasons why a good, decent person would stay with Anders after his heinous act of terrorism? I adore the character, and find him very tragic rather than irredeemably evil, but can't justify not killing him on the spot, romance notwithstanding. The only half-assed reason I can think to keep him around is to assume he's seriously mentally ill, and thus not wholly responsible. In game dialogue tells us he has memory lapses and increasingly frequent loss of control. So let's stick him in a nice padded room next to Bartrand when this is all over and help him get better. I have played a nasty blood mage who was really after Vengeance, and pushed Anders deeper into madness, but that just wasn't as emotionally satisfying, since I prefer good characters. I'm sure this has been discussed, but I'm not going to read 500 posts, sorry. That's why I wonder if there's a list somewhere.

Margaret had a very simple reason.  She told him, during her fight with him about his mission that, "There are more important things than Justice, like love."  She was actually thinking of her brother at that moment. 

Rather than be a hypocrite, she spared him.  Because love is more important.

[silver-crescent]

shiba5 wrote...

silver-crescent wrote...

Ninche wrote...

Haha I have Kafka on the shore and the wind up bird chronicles as well ^^

What are the Anders books about?

They're really weird, it's about this boy named Anders who goes on a plane trip and crashes in the middle of a strange storm and ends up in what looks like a war ravaged city hidden between some mountains and then basically starts meeting progressively crazier and crazier stuff, like a medieval-esque civlization of antropomorphic people who live in the remains of the city, and they are hunted by some sort of slaver mechs who seem to be controlled by "normal" humans...

The plot is interesting, but really convoluted, and I don't really remember the details since I gave up halfway through the third book years ago. I do wonder what was up with that world, but that Anders is SUCH an annoying character I just couldn't keep reading  He seemed to escape near death situations every 5 minutes <_<

Are there monster closets?

What?

[Thaedriel]

CatOfEvilGenius wrote...

Anyone compile a list of reasons why a good, decent person would stay with Anders after his heinous act of terrorism? I adore the character, and find him very tragic rather than irredeemably evil, but can't justify not killing him on the spot, romance notwithstanding. The only half-assed reason I can think to keep him around is to assume he's seriously mentally ill, and thus not wholly responsible. In game dialogue tells us he has memory lapses and increasingly frequent loss of control. So let's stick him in a nice padded room next to Bartrand when this is all over and help him get better. I have played a nasty blood mage who was really after Vengeance, and pushed Anders deeper into madness, but that just wasn't as emotionally satisfying, since I prefer good characters. I'm sure this has been discussed, but I'm not going to read 500 posts, sorry. That's why I wonder if there's a list somewhere.

I don't consider it an act of terrorism. It was an act of war perpetrated against the head of the templars' organization in Kirkwall. It was not an innocent civilian target. The Chantry ain't no Barnes & Noble or train station. Hell, I'd almost go so far as to call the CHANTRY the head of a terrorist cell - they trained and supported the templars in their atrocities. A thirty foot bronze statue of Andraste does not a benevolent institution make.

My Hawke never once entertained the idea of killing Anders. Why would she? She was glad to see the Chantry ripped down because they were turning a deliberate blind eye to the rampant abuse under their direct control, all the while hand-wringing about the Maker sorting things out. Elthina used some mighty fine religious doublespeak to avoid admitting there was a growing pool of blood on her hands.

There's also the fact that Anders was, as Kawamura said, Hawke's only family left. She was going to save him or die trying. Still, though, had she not even romanced him in the first place, she'd never have killed Anders. She could see as well as he could there was no compromise.

Frankly, I've been really shocked at all the vitriol against Anders on these boards, and I think there's way too much false analogizing between the chantry and an ordinary church and the act of blowing up a building and full-on terrorism. My overwhelming feeling at the end of the game was relief that Anders didn't have to die for standing up against what was rapidly becoming mage genocide. Anders didn't make the war, he just forced people to admit they were already on the cusp of one.

[leggywillow]

NamiraWilhelm wrote...

If you import from a mage warden into DA2, does Anders ever mention that he once travelled with Hawkes cousin?

I don't think he does.  Merrill will ask him about Mahariel if you had a Dalish Warden, though.

Y'know, I just realized that DA2 Anders would HATE my Amell.  Maybe I should write a one-shot about their reunion, because it would be seriously sad.  They were total BFFs in Awakening, sharing mage-fists over how awesome it was to shoot lightning at fools and have sex.  They were kindred spirits, but then Mariette went back to her selfish life as Alistair's Chancellor and Anders got decidedly less selfish.

Seriously, he'd hate her now.  She's in such a perfect position to help mages, and she does very little.  Mariette just doesn't feel much connection with other mages.  She didn't take the mage boon at the end of Origins, opting instead to make herself the most powerful person in Ferelden (the head political advisor to her whipped lover).  Sure, she does help mages when the opportunity easily presents itself.  Like Meredith mentioning Ferelden sheltering escaped mages (even though they do that regardless of the Warden's origin and choices).  And she quietly makes sure any proposed anti-mage laws never gain any headway.

But Justice-filled Anders would see her as someone who could easily help mages.  She has so much opportunity and power and influence and she does little for mages.  I don't think Mr. Chantry Explosion would see her quiet behind-the-scenes actions as truly helpful.  Sadness.

Modifié par leggywillow, 01 avril 2011 - 06:17 .

[shiba5]

Thaedriel wrote...

I don't consider it an act of terrorism. It was an act of war perpetrated against the head of the templars' organization in Kirkwall. It was not an innocent civilian target. The Chantry ain't no Barnes & Noble or train station. Hell, I'd almost go so far as to call the CHANTRY the head of a terrorist cell - they trained and supported the templars in their atrocities. A thirty foot bronze statue of Andraste does not a benevolent institution make.

Yep, I always viewed it as a hard target. I don't understand all the hand wringing over it either.
And, there are like 5 people in it when it goes all Jenga. I think I killed more people than that the first time my Hawke set foot in the Gallows.

Modifié par shiba5, 01 avril 2011 - 06:17 .

[Aynslie]

nodice wrote...

Threeparts wrote...

Really? I had no idea abut Zevran's age, I always placed him in mid- to late-30s.

Me too. I actually thought he should be older because he's extremely experienced sexually. Also, it's kinda hot he's an older elf who seduces young wardens, ahem. But, unfortunately Wynne says to Zev in some banter (magical bosom?) "I could be your grandmother" <_< Still, Zev being under 30 is unacceptable.

Zeveran was also a trained assassin who had to "mature" a lot faster than normal elf boys.  Being so sexually experienced at a young age doesn't strike me as odd at all.  He was also raised by ****s.  It makes sense that he would be around 25 (give or take) in origins.  

[Ashwraith]

Thaedriel wrote...

I don't consider it an act of terrorism. It was an act of war perpetrated against the head of the templars' organization in Kirkwall.
-snip-

Now that is an interesting take on the situation.
 I must ponder this more thoroughly. It deserves some thorough pondering.
/departmentofredundancydepartment

Modifié par Ashwraith, 01 avril 2011 - 06:17 .

[Ninche]

Thaedriel wrote...

CatOfEvilGenius wrote...

Anyone compile a list of reasons why a good, decent person would stay with Anders after his heinous act of terrorism? I adore the character, and find him very tragic rather than irredeemably evil, but can't justify not killing him on the spot, romance notwithstanding. The only half-assed reason I can think to keep him around is to assume he's seriously mentally ill, and thus not wholly responsible. In game dialogue tells us he has memory lapses and increasingly frequent loss of control. So let's stick him in a nice padded room next to Bartrand when this is all over and help him get better. I have played a nasty blood mage who was really after Vengeance, and pushed Anders deeper into madness, but that just wasn't as emotionally satisfying, since I prefer good characters. I'm sure this has been discussed, but I'm not going to read 500 posts, sorry. That's why I wonder if there's a list somewhere.

I don't consider it an act of terrorism. It was an act of war perpetrated against the head of the templars' organization in Kirkwall. It was not an innocent civilian target. The Chantry ain't no Barnes & Noble or train station. Hell, I'd almost go so far as to call the CHANTRY the head of a terrorist cell - they trained and supported the templars in their atrocities. A thirty foot bronze statue of Andraste does not a benevolent institution make.

My Hawke never once entertained the idea of killing Anders. Why would she? She was glad to see the Chantry ripped down because they were turning a deliberate blind eye to the rampant abuse under their direct control, all the while hand-wringing about the Maker sorting things out. Elthina used some mighty fine religious doublespeak to avoid admitting there was a growing pool of blood on her hands.

There's also the fact that Anders was, as Kawamura said, Hawke's only family left. She was going to save him or die trying. Still, though, had she not even romanced him in the first place, she'd never have killed Anders. She could see as well as he could there was no compromise.

Frankly, I've been really shocked at all the vitriol against Anders on these boards, and I think there's way too much false analogizing between the chantry and an ordinary church and the act of blowing up a building and full-on terrorism. My overwhelming feeling at the end of the game was relief that Anders didn't have to die for standing up against what was rapidly becoming mage genocide. Anders didn't make the war, he just forced people to admit they were already on the cusp of one.

This. I am actually saving this post for future fights with my boyfriend once he actually completes the game.

[Sialater]

Ashwraith wrote...

Thaedriel wrote...

I don't consider it an act of terrorism. It was an act of war perpetrated against the head of the templars' organization in Kirkwall.
-snip-

Now that is an interesting take on the situation.
 I must ponder this more thoroughly. It deserves some thorough pondering.
/departmentofredundancydepartment

I think there's a reason you only see troops (Templars) in the building with Elthina.

[shiba5]

Ashwraith wrote...

Thaedriel wrote...

I don't consider it an act of terrorism. It was an act of war perpetrated against the head of the templars' organization in Kirkwall.
-snip-

Now that is an interesting take on the situation.
 I must ponder this more thoroughly. It deserves some thorough pondering.
/departmentofredundancydepartment

So, now I'm wondering... are people missing that the Grand Cleric and Co. are in charge of the Templars? That would explain some of the terrorist talk.

[Purposeof-Flight]

Well, in DA2, Zevran looks to be approaching 40. But that may be the animation, which severely pissed me off. Gr.

[silver-crescent]

shiba5 wrote...

Thaedriel wrote...

I don't consider it an act of terrorism. It was an act of war perpetrated against the head of the templars' organization in Kirkwall. It was not an innocent civilian target. The Chantry ain't no Barnes & Noble or train station. Hell, I'd almost go so far as to call the CHANTRY the head of a terrorist cell - they trained and supported the templars in their atrocities. A thirty foot bronze statue of Andraste does not a benevolent institution make.

Yep, I always viewed it as a hard target. I don't understand all the hand wringing over it either.
And, there are like 5 people in it when it goes all Jenga. I think I killed more people than that the first time my Hawke set foot in the Gallows.

I know right. Who is Hawke - who has killed hundreds if not thousands of people by then - to decide someone deserves to die for killing a handful of "nuns"? Especially taken into account that said person has saved hundreds of lives in the past years, including possibly Hawke's sibling's.

[shiba5]

silver-crescent wrote...

shiba5 wrote...

Thaedriel wrote...

I don't consider it an act of terrorism. It was an act of war perpetrated against the head of the templars' organization in Kirkwall. It was not an innocent civilian target. The Chantry ain't no Barnes & Noble or train station. Hell, I'd almost go so far as to call the CHANTRY the head of a terrorist cell - they trained and supported the templars in their atrocities. A thirty foot bronze statue of Andraste does not a benevolent institution make.

Yep, I always viewed it as a hard target. I don't understand all the hand wringing over it either.
And, there are like 5 people in it when it goes all Jenga. I think I killed more people than that the first time my Hawke set foot in the Gallows.

I know right. Who is Hawke - who has killed hundreds if not thousands of people by then - to decide someone deserves to die for killing a handful of "nuns"? Especially taken into account that said person has saved hundreds of lives in the past years, including possibly Hawke's sibling's.

I have a saved game right before the boom - let me go count them. BRB

[nodice]

Aynslie wrote...

nodice wrote...

Threeparts wrote...

Really? I had no idea abut Zevran's age, I always placed him in mid- to late-30s.

Me too. I actually thought he should be older because he's extremely experienced sexually. Also, it's kinda hot he's an older elf who seduces young wardens, ahem. But, unfortunately Wynne says to Zev in some banter (magical bosom?) "I could be your grandmother" <_< Still, Zev being under 30 is unacceptable.

Zeveran was also a trained assassin who had to "mature" a lot faster than normal elf boys.  Being so sexually experienced at a young age doesn't strike me as odd at all.  He was also raised by ****s.  It makes sense that he would be around 25 (give or take) in origins.  

I know it probably makes sense that he's younger. It's just the feeling I got from him. Older, sort of an older man who's been acting the way he acts for a long long time, hitting on everyone and assassinating on the side. Like he knows nothing else. He looks and sounds older too. Then again I got this feeling with Fenris too, so maybe it's an elf thing.

[YamiSnuffles]

leggywillow wrote...

NamiraWilhelm wrote...

If you import from a mage warden into DA2, does Anders ever mention that he once travelled with Hawkes cousin?

I don't think he does.  Merrill will ask him about Mahariel if you had a Dalish Warden, though.

Y'know, I just realized that DA2 Anders would HATE my Amell. 
*snip posty goodness*

Oh, I have no doubt Anders would hate my Amell. He was pretty self-centered. Compassion usually wasn't in the forefront of his mind when he did anything. He thought very little of the mages in the Circle and so, although he didn't help Annul it, he turned it over to the Templars. Thus, he essentially created a Kirkwallesque situation of mages being locked up because they "might" be blood mages. He also made Templars heroes since they helped fight the Blight. Then, when all was said and done, he asked for a title and money as his boon.

[Aynslie]

Ninche wrote...

Thaedriel wrote...

CatOfEvilGenius wrote...

Anyone compile a list of reasons why a good, decent person would stay with Anders after his heinous act of terrorism? I adore the character, and find him very tragic rather than irredeemably evil, but can't justify not killing him on the spot, romance notwithstanding. The only half-assed reason I can think to keep him around is to assume he's seriously mentally ill, and thus not wholly responsible. In game dialogue tells us he has memory lapses and increasingly frequent loss of control. So let's stick him in a nice padded room next to Bartrand when this is all over and help him get better. I have played a nasty blood mage who was really after Vengeance, and pushed Anders deeper into madness, but that just wasn't as emotionally satisfying, since I prefer good characters. I'm sure this has been discussed, but I'm not going to read 500 posts, sorry. That's why I wonder if there's a list somewhere.

I don't consider it an act of terrorism. It was an act of war perpetrated against the head of the templars' organization in Kirkwall. It was not an innocent civilian target. The Chantry ain't no Barnes & Noble or train station. Hell, I'd almost go so far as to call the CHANTRY the head of a terrorist cell - they trained and supported the templars in their atrocities. A thirty foot bronze statue of Andraste does not a benevolent institution make.

My Hawke never once entertained the idea of killing Anders. Why would she? She was glad to see the Chantry ripped down because they were turning a deliberate blind eye to the rampant abuse under their direct control, all the while hand-wringing about the Maker sorting things out. Elthina used some mighty fine religious doublespeak to avoid admitting there was a growing pool of blood on her hands.

There's also the fact that Anders was, as Kawamura said, Hawke's only family left. She was going to save him or die trying. Still, though, had she not even romanced him in the first place, she'd never have killed Anders. She could see as well as he could there was no compromise.

Frankly, I've been really shocked at all the vitriol against Anders on these boards, and I think there's way too much false analogizing between the chantry and an ordinary church and the act of blowing up a building and full-on terrorism. My overwhelming feeling at the end of the game was relief that Anders didn't have to die for standing up against what was rapidly becoming mage genocide. Anders didn't make the war, he just forced people to admit they were already on the cusp of one.

This. I am actually saving this post for future fights with my boyfriend once he actually completes the game.

Well said Thaedriel.  I'm going to save it also.  (we have...disagreements...at my house too.)

Modifié par Aynslie, 01 avril 2011 - 06:40 .

[shiba5]

shiba5 wrote...

silver-crescent wrote...

shiba5 wrote...

Thaedriel wrote...

I don't consider it an act of terrorism. It was an act of war perpetrated against the head of the templars' organization in Kirkwall. It was not an innocent civilian target. The Chantry ain't no Barnes & Noble or train station. Hell, I'd almost go so far as to call the CHANTRY the head of a terrorist cell - they trained and supported the templars in their atrocities. A thirty foot bronze statue of Andraste does not a benevolent institution make.

Yep, I always viewed it as a hard target. I don't understand all the hand wringing over it either.
And, there are like 5 people in it when it goes all Jenga. I think I killed more people than that the first time my Hawke set foot in the Gallows.

I know right. Who is Hawke - who has killed hundreds if not thousands of people by then - to decide someone deserves to die for killing a handful of "nuns"? Especially taken into account that said person has saved hundreds of lives in the past years, including possibly Hawke's sibling's.

I have a saved game right before the boom - let me go count them. BRB

Ok, I counted "Elthina, NOoooooooo" and 4 Templars. That was it.

[ipgd]

shiba5 wrote...

So, now I'm wondering... are people missing that the Grand Cleric and Co. are in charge of the Templars? That would explain some of the terrorist talk.

It's a bit of both, I think.

Elthina IS in charge of the templars, but Anders struck against her for her status as a symbol as much as he did for her connection to the templars. Anders ensured that by destroying a sacred religious leader and place of worship, he would galvanize the public as well as the templars against the mages, giving the mages no option for peaceful submission; there will be practically no one pressuring the templars to show mercy or restraint in their handling of the fallout. He was forcing every party to have a deeply personal sake in the conflict.

That's very much terrorism, I think, but it's certainly very effective for what he is trying to accomplish.

[Ashwraith]

shiba5 wrote...

So, now I'm wondering... are people missing that the Grand Cleric and Co. are in charge of the Templars? That would explain some of the terrorist talk.

Could be, could be... but I think it's more that they don't seem to grasp that Meredith had been looking for an excuse to annul the Circle/declare war on magic all along. Anders' Jenga-ing the Chantry didn't set off a civil war all by itself; it was just the feather that tipped the scales. Chances are, everything that happened in the endgame would have happened anyway.
Or, to paraphrase Gandalf, all he did was give it a nudge out the door.

Modifié par Ashwraith, 01 avril 2011 - 06:32 .