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[LastFadingSmile]

A lot of people are just bamboozled by the grandmother act, in my opinion. 

Anders' personality, his dogma, are laboured from the moment you meet him, the game basically beats you over the head with it. A lot of complaints I read are from people who find the "preachiness" stifling.

Elthina is portrayed at this humble, kind, wonderful, wise old woman who would never hurt a fly. A lot of people, I think don't really think about her role in events any more deeply than "aww, she's so sweeeet!"

Then there the obvious lying during the Justice quest, the sneaking around, the setup for the emotional bomb at the end. By the time the Chantry blows, the game has spent hours engineering you to think "OH POOR INNOCENT OLD LADY NOOOOO!" while Anders gets crazier and more secretive. And for a lot of people, that's enough to shank the disturbed mage in the back without giving it a second thought. It's a knee-jerk reaction. It's the easy way out.

I think you'll find that the people who spare him have by and large thought more meaningfully about the overarching issues at work from the perspective of all parties than the people are like "U DED!"

Modifié par Kolotosa, 01 avril 2011 - 06:33 .

[shiba5]

Ashwraith wrote...

shiba5 wrote...

So, now I'm wondering... are people missing that the Grand Cleric and Co. are in charge of the Templars? That would explain some of the terrorist talk.

Could be, could be... but I think it's more that they don't seem to grasp that Meredith had been looking for an excuse to annul the Circle/declare war on magic all along. Anders' Jenga-ing the Chantry didn't set off a civil war all by itself; it was just the feather that tipped the scales. Chances are, everything that happened in the endgame would have happened anyway.
Or, to paraphrase Gandalf, all he did was give it a nudge out the door.

I think he removed the door.

[Siduri]

I love these "how old is character X" arguments because it's pretty obvious that we all imagine our LIs as being around our own ages. The teens and twentysomethings believe in young Anders, the over-thirty crowd believes in an older Anders. The same exact thing happened with Alistair.

[Aynslie]

nodice wrote...

Aynslie wrote...

nodice wrote...

Threeparts wrote...

Really? I had no idea abut Zevran's age, I always placed him in mid- to late-30s.

Me too. I actually thought he should be older because he's extremely experienced sexually. Also, it's kinda hot he's an older elf who seduces young wardens, ahem. But, unfortunately Wynne says to Zev in some banter (magical bosom?) "I could be your grandmother" <_< Still, Zev being under 30 is unacceptable.

Zeveran was also a trained assassin who had to "mature" a lot faster than normal elf boys.  Being so sexually experienced at a young age doesn't strike me as odd at all.  He was also raised by ****s.  It makes sense that he would be around 25 (give or take) in origins.  

I know it probably makes sense that he's younger. It's just the feeling I got from him. Older, sort of an older man who's been acting the way he acts for a long long time, hitting on everyone and assassinating on the side. Like he knows nothing else. He looks and sounds older too. Then again I got this feeling with Fenris too, so maybe it's an elf thing.

His personality did seem older, but I felt that it was because he experienced more for his age type of a thing.  Forced to mature faster than normal in so many areas of life just made me think he must be mid-twenties but seems to be older.  I guess that makes his character more complex for me.

As for Fenris.  idk.  He lost his memories when he got the lyrium markings on his skin, I doubt that he knows how old he is.  Although I put him closer to 30 when you first meet him, 28ish.  Unless it is a similiar thing as my idea of Zev.  He acts older because he has no memory, but is really younger in physical years.  He has to be old enough to contend and win the tournament to get his markings, be an amnesic slave for a few years, then escape for 3 years before meeting Hawke. 26-28 maybe (when meeting Hawke)?

Modifié par Aynslie, 01 avril 2011 - 06:38 .

[CatOfEvilGenius]

silver-crescent wrote...

shiba5 wrote...

Thaedriel wrote...

I don't consider it an act of terrorism. It was an act of war perpetrated against the head of the templars' organization in Kirkwall. It was not an innocent civilian target. The Chantry ain't no Barnes & Noble or train station. Hell, I'd almost go so far as to call the CHANTRY the head of a terrorist cell - they trained and supported the templars in their atrocities. A thirty foot bronze statue of Andraste does not a benevolent institution make.

Yep, I always viewed it as a hard target. I don't understand all the hand wringing over it either.
And, there are like 5 people in it when it goes all Jenga. I think I killed more people than that the first time my Hawke set foot in the Gallows.

I know right. Who is Hawke - who has killed hundreds if not thousands of people by then - to decide someone deserves to die for killing a handful of "nuns"? Especially taken into account that said person has saved hundreds of lives in the past years, including possibly Hawke's sibling's.

Hawke kills bandits, murderers, blood mages, not innocents.  (At least, if you play a decent Hawke, and not one who's paid to be a hitman and kills the qunari delegates.)

Meredith and templars of Ser Alrik's stripe deserved to be blown up.  Elthina was certainly VERY ineffectual, but she was not blind to Meredith's abuses and she did not condone them.  Being ineffectual does not make one deserving of death.  Do we have ingame confirmation that Elthina actually had any power to make Meredith step down?  I'm not defending Elthina's inaction at all, just saying she shouldn't have been killed for it.

As for the other people in the Chantry, how were they responsible for the suffering of the mages?  How does a chanter or brother or a lay sister who cleans the latrines contribute in any way to the oppression of mages?  So they happen to worship the same Maker that Ser Alrik and Meredith claim to follow, and for that, they need to die?  Really? 

Anders could have killed only Elthina, if he held her personally responsible.  He could have planted the bomb in the templars ready room.  He could have been much, much more selective and precise.  Instead, he chose to kill everyone in the Chantry, including people who had never harmed the mages.  So yes, it absolutely was terrorism.

edit:
Let's not forget all the regular townfolks who just went to the Chantry to pray.  They needed killing, did they?

Modifié par CatOfEvilGenius, 01 avril 2011 - 06:38 .

[silver-crescent]

shiba5 wrote...

Ok, I counted "Elthina, NOoooooooo" and 4 Templars. That was it.

I'm pretty sure there were a few sisters in there too.

But now that I think about, no one actually worries about the deaths of the innocents, all they talk about is Elthina's. Such good people 

(In case that wasn't clear, I mean the companions and stuff, not the people here)

[Ashwraith]

Also, Elthina is not a harmless old lady.
She plays one brilliantly, I'll give her that. But if you bother to talk to her on a regular basis, you'll find that she's a lot less 'nice' than she appears to be.
Granted, I had a chip on my shoulder regarding Elthina from the moment she dismissed my Warden's hard work as 'the Maker stepping in' and 'oh, even an elf can sometimes do great things etc etc'.
But even I was taken in by the act until my second playthrough, when I actually listened to what she had to say.

[mellifera]

Siduri wrote...

I love these "how old is character X" arguments because it's pretty obvious that we all imagine our LIs as being around our own ages. The teens and twentysomethings believe in young Anders, the over-thirty crowd believes in an older Anders. The same exact thing happened with Alistair.

Not me, I imagine both Hawke and Anders to be older than me, and my Warden and Alistair to be younger xD

Okay, well, maybe my Hawke is about same age as me in my head, but that's purely coincidental. I'd place him at that age whether I were 14 or 40.

Modifié par yukidama, 01 avril 2011 - 06:38 .

[Sialater]

Siduri wrote...

I love these "how old is character X" arguments because it's pretty obvious that we all imagine our LIs as being around our own ages. The teens and twentysomethings believe in young Anders, the over-thirty crowd believes in an older Anders. The same exact thing happened with Alistair.

Nah... Al's never been more than 19-22 to me.  And 22 would be at the END of Awakening.

And I'm well over 30.

[Ashwraith]

shiba5 wrote...

I think he removed the door.

Touche. XD

[shiba5]

Kolotosa wrote...

A lot of people are just bamboozled by the grandmother act, in my opinion. 

Anders' personality, his dogma, are laboured from the moment you meet him, the game basically beats you over the head with it. A lot of complaints I read are from people who find the "preachiness" stifling.

Elthina is portrayed at this humble, kind, wonderful, wise old woman who would never hurt a fly. A lot of people, I think don't really think about her role in events any more deeply than "aww, she's so sweeeet!"

Then there the obvious lying during the Justice quest, the sneaking around, the setup for the emotional bomb at the end. By the time the Chantry blows, the game has spent hours engineering you to think "OH POOR INNOCENT OLD LADY NOOOOO!" while Anders gets crazier and more secretive. And for a lot of people, that's enough to shank the disturbed mage in the back without giving it a second thought. It's a knee-jerk reaction. It's the easy way out.

I think you'll find that the people who spare him have by and large thought more meaningfully about the overarching issues at work from the perspective of all parties than the people are like "U DED!"

I had a huge argument with a friend who insisted just such a thing - that she was a nice lady who just wanted to keep the peace between the two sides. Yeah right. I feel like he missed huge chunks of dialog or wasn't paying attention.

[Sialater]

Ashwraith wrote...

Also, Elthina is not a harmless old lady.
She plays one brilliantly, I'll give her that. But if you bother to talk to her on a regular basis, you'll find that she's a lot less 'nice' than she appears to be.
Granted, I had a chip on my shoulder regarding Elthina from the moment she dismissed my Warden's hard work as 'the Maker stepping in' and 'oh, even an elf can sometimes do great things etc etc'.
But even I was taken in by the act until my second playthrough, when I actually listened to what she had to say.

Wait... she actually DISSES an Elf Warden?  I know she disses a mage Warden.  (Moira is a Surana, after all.)

[Purposeof-Flight]

Kolotosa wrote...

A lot of people are just bamboozled by the grandmother act, in my opinion. 

Anders' personality, his dogma, are laboured from the moment you meet him, the game basically beats you over the head with it. A lot of complaints I read are from people who find the "preachiness" stifling.

Elthina is portrayed at this humble, kind, wonderful, wise old woman who would never hurt a fly. A lot of people, I think don't really think about her role in events any more deeply than "aww, she's so sweeeet!"

Then there the obvious lying during the Justice quest, the sneaking around, the setup for the emotional bomb at the end. By the time the Chantry blows, the game has spent hours engineering you to think "OH POOR INNOCENT OLD LADY NOOOOO!" while Anders gets crazier and more secretive. And for a lot of people, that's enough to shank the disturbed mage in the back without giving it a second thought. It's a knee-jerk reaction. It's the easy way out.

I think you'll find that the people who spare him have by and large thought more meaningfully about the overarching issues at work from the perspective of all parties than the people are like "U DED!"

Anders was more complex than "I CRAZY! I BLOW UP CHANTRIES! I WANT MAGES FREE! WEEEE!"
I played the whole game with one eyebrow raised...utterly confused over his character. He wants mages free, yet he takes a spirit into his body and tries to justify it when the spirit becomes Vengeance? He blows up a Chantry to make a point, then practically begs you to kill him?

Anders is a pretty tragic, tortured character. And those who played Awakening REALLY feel that, because they all remember who Anders used to be and how funny and downright ridiculous he was. There are times in DA2 where that shines through, but most of the time he just runs around being uber-paranoid and uber- mage rights.

When I found out Anders was in DA2, I was stoked. But when I actually played the game, I just ended up feeling terrible throughout the whole thing.

[Herr Uhl]

Sialater wrote...

Ashwraith wrote...

Also, Elthina is not a harmless old lady.
She plays one brilliantly, I'll give her that. But if you bother to talk to her on a regular basis, you'll find that she's a lot less 'nice' than she appears to be.
Granted, I had a chip on my shoulder regarding Elthina from the moment she dismissed my Warden's hard work as 'the Maker stepping in' and 'oh, even an elf can sometimes do great things etc etc'.
But even I was taken in by the act until my second playthrough, when I actually listened to what she had to say.

Wait... she actually DISSES an Elf Warden?  I know she disses a mage Warden.  (Moira is a Surana, after all.)

She is most confounded by the dwarf warden though.

[Thiefy]

I'm a twenty something believing in an older Anders. earliest being late twenties but i think 30 is believable, along with early thirties.

[Purposeof-Flight]

yukidama wrote...

Siduri wrote...

I love these "how old is character X" arguments because it's pretty obvious that we all imagine our LIs as being around our own ages. The teens and twentysomethings believe in young Anders, the over-thirty crowd believes in an older Anders. The same exact thing happened with Alistair.

Not me, I imagine both Hawke and Anders to be older than me, and my Warden and Alistair to be younger xD

Okay, well, maybe my Hawke is about same age as me in my head, but that's purely coincidental. I'd place him at that age whether I were 14 or 40.

14 year old manly man with stubble? Who saves everyone from the Qunari before he's old enough to drink?
Talk about being a legend. LMFAO

[shiba5]

Ashwraith wrote...
Granted, I had a chip on my shoulder regarding Elthina from the moment she dismissed my Warden's hard work as 'the Maker stepping in' and 'oh, even an elf can sometimes do great things etc etc'. .

Oh, I know. I was like, "Oh no you didn't..."

[silver-crescent]

shiba5 wrote...

I had a huge argument with a friend who insisted just such a thing - that she was a nice lady who just wanted to keep the peace between the two sides. Yeah right. I feel like he missed huge chunks of dialog or wasn't paying attention.

And that's exactly the problem with a lot of people. What Anders did is very easy to dismiss as "crazy guy randomly bombs chantry, kills nuns for the lulz" if you haven't been paying attention to the story/lore details.

[Ashwraith]

Sialater wrote...

Wait... she actually DISSES an Elf Warden?  I know she disses a mage Warden.  (Moira is a Surana, after all.)

Yes, she does. My Warden was Dalish. It pissed me off something fierce, believe you me.

[mellifera]

Purposeof-Flight wrote...

yukidama wrote...

Siduri wrote...

I love these "how old is character X" arguments because it's pretty obvious that we all imagine our LIs as being around our own ages. The teens and twentysomethings believe in young Anders, the over-thirty crowd believes in an older Anders. The same exact thing happened with Alistair.

Not me, I imagine both Hawke and Anders to be older than me, and my Warden and Alistair to be younger xD

Okay, well, maybe my Hawke is about same age as me in my head, but that's purely coincidental. I'd place him at that age whether I were 14 or 40.

14 year old manly man with stubble? Who saves everyone from the Qunari before he's old enough to drink?
Talk about being a legend. LMFAO

LOL I meant I'd still place my Hawke at 23-24 even if I were 14 or 40. Right now I'm 23, which is why it matches up. But even if I weren't, yeah.

[Sialater]

Ashwraith wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Wait... she actually DISSES an Elf Warden?  I know she disses a mage Warden.  (Moira is a Surana, after all.)

Yes, she does. My Warden was Dalish. It pissed me off something fierce, believe you me.

Suddenly, I feel lot better about letting Anders live... no one disses my elfmage.

[Aynslie]

shiba5 wrote...

Ashwraith wrote...
Granted, I had a chip on my shoulder regarding Elthina from the moment she dismissed my Warden's hard work as 'the Maker stepping in' and 'oh, even an elf can sometimes do great things etc etc'. .

Oh, I know. I was like, "Oh no you didn't..."

ROFL!

[leggywillow]

shiba5 wrote...

So, now I'm wondering... are people missing that the Grand Cleric and Co. are in charge of the Templars? That would explain some of the terrorist talk.

THIS.  This drives me absolutely insane.  Meredith and the templars answer directly to Elthina!  Why does no one remember this?  Yes, Meredith has established herself as the de facto power, but Elthina is still her boss.  If you try to point this out to Elthina, she just brushes Hawke off with a "You think I have more power than I do".  At this point that may be true, but who's fault is it if Elthina made her own office so weak that her Knight-Commander now has more power?

The more I play the game, the more irritated I get at Elthina.  She does NOTHING and she stands up for NOTHING.  Another example is during the "Offered and Lost" quest.  The first few times I played the game, I secretly cheered and thought Elthina was awesome when she just let Petrice get murdered by the Qunari right there in the Chantry.  But in later playthroughs, I started thinking "WTF?!"

Yes, Petrice deserved to die and I hated that conniving woman.  But really, Elthina?  You just said her fate would be decided in court, according to Chantry law or whatever.  And then you watched (and possibly saw the Qunari in the shadows beforehand and knew what was about to happen) as Petrice instead took an arrow to the brain.  And did NOTHING.  And she seemed to know that Petrice was up to something shady before that and did NOTHING.

It seems to me that there are two possibilities for Elthina.  One is that she has her own strong opinions and agendas and allows them to be served by willfully ignoring the duties demanded by her position.  The other is that she is truly an ineffectual ruler who would rather stick her head in the sand than fulfill her responsibilities.  So many problems could have been avoided if she had just done her job.

[shiba5]

silver-crescent wrote...

shiba5 wrote...

I had a huge argument with a friend who insisted just such a thing - that she was a nice lady who just wanted to keep the peace between the two sides. Yeah right. I feel like he missed huge chunks of dialog or wasn't paying attention.

And that's exactly the problem with a lot of people. What Anders did is very easy to dismiss as "crazy guy randomly bombs chantry, kills nuns for the lulz" if you haven't been paying attention to the story/lore details.

Well, they took his cat away you see...

[Anarya]

Purposeof-Flight wrote...

yukidama wrote...

Siduri wrote...

I love these "how old is character X" arguments because it's pretty obvious that we all imagine our LIs as being around our own ages. The teens and twentysomethings believe in young Anders, the over-thirty crowd believes in an older Anders. The same exact thing happened with Alistair.

Not me, I imagine both Hawke and Anders to be older than me, and my Warden and Alistair to be younger xD

Okay, well, maybe my Hawke is about same age as me in my head, but that's purely coincidental. I'd place him at that age whether I were 14 or 40.

14 year old manly man with stubble? Who saves everyone from the Qunari before he's old enough to drink?
Talk about being a legend. LMFAO

I think she meant she pictures Hawke as her current age (20-whatever), and would still picture him as that age if she WEREN'T also that age.