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[Anarya]

I think it's funny that Seb and Anders have the same writer. They're exact opposites and I can't help but see them as brothers of a sort who can't ever get along.

[Trophonius]

CatOfEvilGenius wrote...

Trophonius wrote...

With regards to Chantry innocents: when you say that the Blight was obviated by the will of the Maker and not even give credit where it's due (Grey Warden/Hero of Ferelden), that's when you stop being innocent. You're allowing yourself to fall victim to sheer ignorance and blind faith instead of accepting reality as it is and doing something about it.

All I saw was Anders giving them a macabre, but much needed wake up call.

I see a lot of ignorance and blind faith in the real world.  It irks me quite a bit.  In some cases, it leads to actual oppression of women, of homosexuals, and so on.  So, by your reasoning, I suppose I should start blowing up churches now?  (I have no intention of blowing up anything, for the record.)

Maybe not in our world (of course, being a gay man and understanding what it feels like to be treated as second class citizen, I would want nothing more than for the injustices to stop), but in his world? Definitely. In fact, without that same wake up call, mages wouldn't have machinated such a large scale insurrection to make it known that they only desire the same rights entitled to everyone else. You can defend Elthina and the Chantry all you want, but it doesn't relieve them of responsibility for the atrocities they've committed against a group of people who cant control a genetic predisposition.

Additionally, all evidence points against compromise. Templars and mages are getting restless and arguments between Meredith and Orsino were absolutely going NOWHERE. For 3 years, Kirkwall has gone in a state of dissolution with no real authority to solve it. Anders stepped in to make all of them see what's truly important, effectively inspiring others to abandon their inaction and realize that to achieve freedom, you must do something about it.

Modifié par Trophonius, 01 avril 2011 - 07:34 .

[shiba5]

ipgd wrote...

I probably wouldn't have killed Sebastian even if I had the option. I want him to come after Hawke with his army, so I can poop all over it and publically humiliate him. With waffles.

You'd think after fighting with you for years and watching you completely destroy enemies, he would be a little afraid of you.

Oh, did anyone catch the bit of bad writing when you turn in his Duty quest? He says something about how you completely decimated the mercenaries and wiped them out. I was like... uh, that means 90% of them are still out there, but ok I'll take your gold if you think that I'm done.

Modifié par shiba5, 01 avril 2011 - 07:45 .

[Purposeof-Flight]

leggywillow wrote...

Oh, and the first time I got his waffling speech, I had to giggle.  The only quest I'd ever brought him on was his Repentance quest in Act 2 during my first playthrough, so as far I knew he and Hawke had only spoken to each other twice during 7 years.  Hawke's reaction was very much a confused "Dude, who are you again?  Why are you even here with my crew?"

He was my companion all through Act 2 and 3.
So my Hawke's reaction was more like, "Sweet Maker! You can talk without trying to convert somebody? I never knew!"

[upsettingshorts]

To be honest I do not get the hate for Seb, it's... yeah. Especially when he gets upset, fumes, and throws out poorly-thought-out threats after someone murrrrderrrs his friend and mentor in cold blood.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 01 avril 2011 - 07:34 .

[Mxcl]

On the upside, we can always hope whatever Sebastian DLC we get has an option to introduce him to the murder knife with Anders/Vengeance cackling in the background.

That last part probably exists in my imagination only.

[Anarya]

shiba5 wrote...

ipgd wrote...

I probably wouldn't have killed Sebastian even if I had the option. I want him to come after Hawke with his army, so I can poop all over it and publically humiliate him. With waffles.

You'd think after fighting with you for years and watchign you completely destroy enemies, he would be a little afraid of you.

Oh, did anyone catch the bit of bad writing when you turn in his Duty quest? He says something about how you completely decimated the mercenaries and wiped them out. I was like... uh, that means 90% of them are still out there, but ok I'll take your gold if you think that I'm done.

Well it actually means 10% are still out there, but he does say they're wiped out completely. Yes I did catch that and it bugged me a tiny bit.

Edit: Brainfarted, you had it right

Modifié par Anarya, 01 avril 2011 - 07:37 .

[Siduri]

Ninche wrote...

There aren't that many mages who manage to stay free long enough fo form any sort of aliances without risking being hunted down and made tranquil

Actually, there already is an organized mage underground operating in Thedas--we know that from codex entries and from the things Anders says. Unfortunately, probably a majority of them are blood mages (as the Leiliana quest demonstrates). Pushed into it by desperation? Yes, I think so. The fact remains that unless the mage freedom movement starts making some serious efforts to win over the general population (and to police its own), they are going to end up one of two ways: in victory, with a Tevinter style mage-ocracy where those who refuse to resort to blood magic are enslaved or sacrified by those who do; or in defeat, where mages are summarily executed by templars or lynched by townsfolk wherever they are discovered.

Getting to a resolution where mages live peacefully and in freedom out in the world at large requires winning over the people. It's not some la-la pie-in-the-sky idle wish, it's what has to happen before mages can live free.

And as for spreading manifestoes and teaching people not to fear mages - do you think a small group of apostates can break hundreds of years of chantry brainwashing?

Again, I know they can, because Anders already did it in Darktown.

But you have to accept people as they are and stand by them right?

Well, no, you don't have to. My Hawke did run off with Anders to be a freedom fighter because she still believes in the cause, but she has some serious disagreements regarding intelligent tactics.

And I do want to reiterate, because I think you missed the bit where I said it originally, that I'm at least willing to consider the idea that this one act might, ultimately, do more good than harm--that is, the benefits of uniting the mages in resistance might outweigh the huge hit taken to public sympathy. I don't know. But turning the people against the mages isn't a smart thing to take as a goal.

[Muzzlepuffs]

shiba5 wrote...

ipgd wrote...

I probably wouldn't have killed Sebastian even if I had the option. I want him to come after Hawke with his army, so I can poop all over it and publically humiliate him. With waffles.

You'd think after fighting with you for years and watchign you completely destroy enemies, he would be a little afraid of you.

Oh, did anyone catch the bit of bad writing when you turn in his Duty quest? He says something about how you completely decimated the mercenaries and wiped them out. I was like... uh, that means 90% of them are still out there, but ok I'll take your gold if you think that I'm done.

Yes. Misuse of "decimated" is one of my pet peeves. I think there's another instance of it in the game somewhere, but I can't remember where.

[signcherie]

 

leggywillow wrote...

Oh, and the first time I got his waffling speech, I had to giggle.  The only quest I'd ever brought him on was his Repentance quest in Act 2 during my first playthrough, so as far I knew he and Hawke had only spoken to each other twice during 7 years.  Hawke's reaction was very much a confused "Dude, who are you again?  Why are you even here with my crew?"

Sebastian: KILLL ANDERSSS NOW
Hawke: Anders, who is this guy?
Anders: I think I've seen him in the Chantry.
Sebastian: Why are you waffling....
Hawke: Mmm, waffles. Anders you want to get some breakfast?
Anders: Okay!
Sebastian: 

[Siduri]

Anarya wrote...
Also my Hawke did not kill Anders, but she went home and changed their Facetome status to "it's complicated".

AHAHAHAH. This.

[Herr Uhl]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

To be honest I do not get the hate for Seb, it's... yeah. Especially when he gets upset, fumes, and throws out poorly-thought-out threats after someone murrrrderrrs his friend and mentor in cold blood.

But he likes the chantry and thinks you should turn in Merril and Anders. That is where most of it comes from methinks.

[Purposeof-Flight]

Facetome?
Total win.

[ipgd]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

To be honest I do not get the hate for Seb, it's... yeah. Especially when he gets upset, fumes, and throws out poorly-thought-out threats after someone murrrrderrrs his friend and mentor in cold blood.

I don't hate Seb. Still, it's hilarious he thinks he could compete with Anders of all people.

[leggywillow]

Muzzlepuffs wrote...

shiba5 wrote...
You'd think after fighting with you for years and watchign you completely destroy enemies, he would be a little afraid of you.

Oh, did anyone catch the bit of bad writing when you turn in his Duty quest? He says something about how you completely decimated the mercenaries and wiped them out. I was like... uh, that means 90% of them are still out there, but ok I'll take your gold if you think that I'm done.

Yes. Misuse of "decimated" is one of my pet peeves. I think there's another instance of it in the game somewhere, but I can't remember where.

Huh.  Well, I will freely admit to apparently not knowing the proper definition of that word, since I've always seen it used in the context of "CRAZY DESTRUCTION".  It's definitely misused in a lot of media.

[signcherie]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

To be honest I do not get the hate for Seb, it's... yeah. Especially when he gets upset, fumes, and throws out poorly-thought-out threats after someone murrrrderrrs his friend and mentor in cold blood.

But he likes the chantry and thinks you should turn in Merril and Anders. That is where most of it comes from methinks.

Also most people probably don't use him much, because Varric is so awesome. So when he starts making demands like he thinks you are best buds and wonders why you aren't being loyal...it feels a little weird.

[upsettingshorts]

Herr Uhl wrote...

But he likes the chantry and thinks you should turn in Merril and Anders. That is where most of it comes from methinks.

Sure, but someone needs to be there to say that.  Of course it's going to lose its impact if you never take him around.  Same if you never take Anders around - but that's less common as he's the support mage and Seb is redundant with Varric.

ipgd wrote...

I don't hate Seb. Still, it's hilarious he thinks he could compete with Anders of all people.

Heh, Seb was preaching to the choir (heh) with me about Anders.  I didn't even get the Starkhaven thing.   But that's me.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 01 avril 2011 - 07:43 .

[Siduri]

ipgd wrote...

I don't hate Seb. Still, it's hilarious he thinks he could compete with Anders of all people.

I'm among those who love that moment from Sebastian--his fall from grace. It's so delicious! Consumed by his need for vengeance, the chantry boy throws away every scruple, every single principle that Elthina actually stood for? It's totally an Anakin-becomes-Vader moment. I adore it.

[Herr Uhl]

Siduri wrote...

ipgd wrote...

I don't hate Seb. Still, it's hilarious he thinks he could compete with Anders of all people.

I'm among those who love that moment from Sebastian--his fall from grace. It's so delicious! Consumed by his need for vengeance, the chantry boy throws away every scruple, every single principle that Elthina actually stood for? It's totally an Anakin-becomes-Vader moment. I adore it.

That is an insult to bioware writing.

[Aeowyn]

I disliked Seb before I got that convo tbh. It was his inability to decide on anything and I kept thinking "wtf dude. Didn't I just kill the entire Flint company and Lady Harriman so you could go back to Starkhaven?" And then when he went ape after the bombing and decided THEN that he would go back to Starkhaven after having been so indecisive the entire game I just thought "Yeah, good luck with that."

[Sialater]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

To be honest I do not get the hate for Seb, it's... yeah. Especially when he gets upset, fumes, and throws out poorly-thought-out threats after someone murrrrderrrs his friend and mentor in cold blood.

I don't hate him.  I find him an ineffectual character that didn't capture my attention as Anders did, no offense to Ms. Hepler.  He spouted the same party line we've heard from ever single Chantry adherent in both games, without even the heretical viewpoint Leliana espoused for flavor.  He toes the party line so acutely, I know what he's going to say before he says it.  He doesn't vary.  EVER.  He also shirks his duty to his people to continue this ridiculous attachment to a cruel and entrenched organization.  Elthina might have been his mother figure and mentor, but Hawke was his friend.  And he would have known how she felt about Anders and the mages.  I don't see why he was so surprised by Margaret Hawke's sparing Anders.

The only interesting thing about him is that he gets Justice and Vengeance just as confused as everyone else in Kirkwall but he's more obvious about it.

He may have a pretty model and a hot accent, but the fact that he continuously avoids responsibility for Starkhaven pisses me (and my Hawkes) off.  After all, I stuck a reluctant Alistair on the throne because his people needed him, why should I feel any different about a prodigal Prince?  Frankly, when he took off with the promise of bringing the armies of his City back to track my Hawke and her lover down, Margaret wished for the chance to reply, "Good!  About damned time you took some responsibility for people who depend on you!"

[Muzzlepuffs]

leggywillow wrote...

Muzzlepuffs wrote...

shiba5 wrote...
You'd think after fighting with you for years and watchign you completely destroy enemies, he would be a little afraid of you.

Oh, did anyone catch the bit of bad writing when you turn in his Duty quest? He says something about how you completely decimated the mercenaries and wiped them out. I was like... uh, that means 90% of them are still out there, but ok I'll take your gold if you think that I'm done.

Yes. Misuse of "decimated" is one of my pet peeves. I think there's another instance of it in the game somewhere, but I can't remember where.

Huh.  Well, I will freely admit to apparently not knowing the proper definition of that word, since I've always seen it used in the context of "CRAZY DESTRUCTION".  It's definitely misused in a lot of media.

Oh, yeah, it's misused ALL THE TIME, but the original meaning is to remove a 10th.

And to be honest, I didn't know about it until it came up in an episode of Doctor Who, but now that I know, I can't unknow it.

[OraVelnoria87]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

To be honest I do not get the hate for Seb, it's... yeah. Especially when he gets upset, fumes, and throws out poorly-thought-out threats after someone murrrrderrrs his friend and mentor in cold blood.

I think he's a cocky weinie because he has the audacity to order ME to kill him. Sure I would have killed Seb if he had tried himself, but save some face and just storm off. Don't start making crazy demands. Tsk tsk.

And raise an army? Yeah you've already showed me how good you are at that. (not very)

ONE LAST THING! One minute he needs you to be his bodyguard because he's the last of his line, and the next he's all for dying a virgin (not spawning an heir). He's all asstastically backwards. O_o 

[ipgd]

Siduri wrote...

ipgd wrote...

I don't hate Seb. Still, it's hilarious he thinks he could compete with Anders of all people.

I'm among those who love that moment from Sebastian--his fall from grace. It's so delicious! Consumed by his need for vengeance, the chantry boy throws away every scruple, every single principle that Elthina actually stood for? It's totally an Anakin-becomes-Vader moment. I adore it.

Yeah, that'd been a consistent theme with Sebastian's character.

If you think about it, he and Anders are pretty much mirrored in their character development, despite being practically polar opposites as far as politics go. Both of them get very wrapped up in justice/vengeance and the delineation thereof.

[shiba5]

Muzzlepuffs wrote...

shiba5 wrote...

ipgd wrote...

I probably wouldn't have killed Sebastian even if I had the option. I want him to come after Hawke with his army, so I can poop all over it and publically humiliate him. With waffles.

You'd think after fighting with you for years and watchign you completely destroy enemies, he would be a little afraid of you.

Oh, did anyone catch the bit of bad writing when you turn in his Duty quest? He says something about how you completely decimated the mercenaries and wiped them out. I was like... uh, that means 90% of them are still out there, but ok I'll take your gold if you think that I'm done.

Yes. Misuse of "decimated" is one of my pet peeves. I think there's another instance of it in the game somewhere, but I can't remember where.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.