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[Muzzlepuffs]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Siduri wrote...

ipgd wrote...

I don't hate Seb. Still, it's hilarious he thinks he could compete with Anders of all people.

I'm among those who love that moment from Sebastian--his fall from grace. It's so delicious! Consumed by his need for vengeance, the chantry boy throws away every scruple, every single principle that Elthina actually stood for? It's totally an Anakin-becomes-Vader moment. I adore it.

That is an insult to bioware writing.

Maybe, but his "ELTHINA NOOOOOOO" totally reminded me of the Vader NOOOOOOO.

[upsettingshorts]

Sialater wrote...

The only interesting thing about him is that he gets Justice and Vengeance just as confused as everyone else in Kirkwall but he's more obvious about it

I get the arguments about waffling, but this one confuses me.

True justice - especially when contrasted with the concept of vengeance - is blind, objective balance.  By entering the mortal realm and inhabiting a mortal being with limited perspective and his own biases and prejudices, Justice - through Anders - became Vengeance.  Whether or not he embraces this new identity or has it consume him against his will depends on the Friend or Rival path Hawke takes.

"Although revenge resembles some conceptions of justice, vengeance is usually depicted as more injurious and punitive as opposed to being harmonious and restorative. Whereas justice implies actions undertaken and supported by a legitimate judicial system grounded upon a foundation of ethics and morals of the majority, revenge implies actions undertaken by an individual or narrowly defined group outside the boundaries of judicial or ethical conduct whose goal is to force a wrongdoer to suffer the same or greater pain than that which was originally inflicted to a party."

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 01 avril 2011 - 07:53 .

[shiba5]

Muzzlepuffs wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Siduri wrote...

ipgd wrote...

I don't hate Seb. Still, it's hilarious he thinks he could compete with Anders of all people.

I'm among those who love that moment from Sebastian--his fall from grace. It's so delicious! Consumed by his need for vengeance, the chantry boy throws away every scruple, every single principle that Elthina actually stood for? It's totally an Anakin-becomes-Vader moment. I adore it.

That is an insult to bioware writing.

Maybe, but his "ELTHINA NOOOOOOO" totally reminded me of the Vader NOOOOOOO.

OMG yes.

[Miri1984]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

To be honest I do not get the hate for Seb, it's... yeah. Especially when he gets upset, fumes, and throws out poorly-thought-out threats after someone murrrrderrrs his friend and mentor in cold blood.

It's the preachy sanctimony and smug sense of superiority during the game that gets me. He also represents that particular brand of religiously fervent ennui (I know it's a bit of a contradiction) that makes me fume. Too many things can be dismissed with the phrase "It's god's will." or "God has a plan". Yes, matey, and maybe that plan involves US DOING SOMETHING.

The blatant hypocrisy of abandoning his vows to seek revenge after I've spent the game being nice to him also doesn't help. 

[leggywillow]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Sialater wrote...

The only interesting thing about him is that he gets Justice and Vengeance just as confused as everyone else in Kirkwall but he's more obvious about it

I get the arguments about waffling, but this one confuses me.

True justice - especially when contrasted with the concept of vengeance - is blind, objective balance.  By entering the mortal realm and inhabiting a mortal being with limited perspective and his own biases and prejudices, Justice - through Anders - became Vengeance.  Whether or not he embraces this new identity or has it consume him against his will depends on the Friend or Rival path Hawke takes.

"Although revenge resembles some conceptions of justice, vengeance is usually depicted as more injurious and punitive as opposed to being harmonious and restorative. Whereas justice implies actions undertaken and supported by a legitimate judicial system grounded upon a foundation of ethics and morals of the majority, revenge implies actions undertaken by an individual or narrowly defined group outside the boundaries of judicial or ethical conduct whose goal is to force a wrongdoer to suffer the same or greater pain than that which was originally inflicted to a party."

And I personally don't think Sebastian really understands that.

[ipgd]

I think it just comes down to separating a character's likability as a person and their value as a character. I'd probably probably want to kick Sebastian in the nads if I knew him in real life, but I like him as a character. He's very wishy-washy and hypocritical, but it's interesting.

Opposite for me with Bethany, I guess. I'd like her if I met her, but she's very... well-adjusted and boring as a character. I always liked Carver better because of that. I prefer the horrible screwups.

[Herr Uhl]

Muzzlepuffs wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Siduri wrote...

ipgd wrote...

I don't hate Seb. Still, it's hilarious he thinks he could compete with Anders of all people.

I'm among those who love that moment from Sebastian--his fall from grace. It's so delicious! Consumed by his need for vengeance, the chantry boy throws away every scruple, every single principle that Elthina actually stood for? It's totally an Anakin-becomes-Vader moment. I adore it.

That is an insult to bioware writing.

Maybe, but his "ELTHINA NOOOOOOO" totally reminded me of the Vader NOOOOOOO.

You mean compared to the Anders NOOOOO in the tranquil quest?

[Sialater]

leggywillow wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Sialater wrote...

The only interesting thing about him is that he gets Justice and Vengeance just as confused as everyone else in Kirkwall but he's more obvious about it

I get the arguments about waffling, but this one confuses me.

True justice - especially when contrasted with the concept of vengeance - is blind, objective balance.  By entering the mortal realm and inhabiting a mortal being with limited perspective and his own biases and prejudices, Justice - through Anders - became Vengeance.  Whether or not he embraces this new identity or has it consume him against his will depends on the Friend or Rival path Hawke takes.

"Although revenge resembles some conceptions of justice, vengeance is usually depicted as more injurious and punitive as opposed to being harmonious and restorative. Whereas justice implies actions undertaken and supported by a legitimate judicial system grounded upon a foundation of ethics and morals of the majority, revenge implies actions undertaken by an individual or narrowly defined group outside the boundaries of judicial or ethical conduct whose goal is to force a wrongdoer to suffer the same or greater pain than that which was originally inflicted to a party."

And I personally don't think Sebastian really understands that.

No, Sebastian doesn't understand that.  Anders does, hence his acknowledgement that Justice is Justice no longer.

[signcherie]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Sialater wrote...

The only interesting thing about him is that he gets Justice and Vengeance just as confused as everyone else in Kirkwall but he's more obvious about it

I get the arguments about waffling, but this one confuses me.

True justice - especially when contrasted with the concept of vengeance - is blind, objective balance.  By entering the mortal realm and inhabiting a mortal being with limited perspective and his own biases and prejudices, Justice - through Anders - became Vengeance.  Whether or not he embraces this new identity or has it consume him against his will depends on the Friend or Rival path Hawke takes.

"Although revenge resembles some conceptions of justice, vengeance is usually depicted as more injurious and punitive as opposed to being harmonious and restorative. Whereas justice implies actions undertaken and supported by a legitimate judicial system grounded upon a foundation of ethics and morals of the majority, revenge implies actions undertaken by an individual or narrowly defined group outside the boundaries of judicial or ethical conduct whose goal is to force a wrongdoer to suffer the same or greater pain than that which was originally inflicted to a party."

Wanting Anders dead could be seen as justice. Wanting to raze Kirkwall with his Starkhaven army is twisting justice into vengeance. Much as Anders' anger twists Justice into Vengeance.

[upsettingshorts]

Miri1984 wrote...

The blatant hypocrisy of abandoning his vows to seek revenge after I've spent the game being nice to him also doesn't help.

That strikes me as similar to the "Alistair ditching me at the Landsmeet if I spare Loghain is out of character" argument.

In that it's not really true.  Up until then you weren't actively defending people who blew up Chantries and killed his friend.  If you were and he was okay with it then, and angry with it now - that'd be hypocritical - but there's nothing else in the game to compare it to.  It's perfectly reasonable for someone like him to demand Anders' execution and explode in anger if you even question that it ought to be done. 

Sialater wrote...

No, Sebastian doesn't understand that.  Anders does, hence his acknowledgement that Justice is Justice no longer.

I don't think Sebastian really cares at that point which it is.  If one of us was transported into that scene and laid it out, he'd be like, "Justice, vengeance, who cares!  That man is dead, and if this city shelters him I'll burn it to the ground."  He'd view it as doing the work of God, anyway.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 01 avril 2011 - 08:00 .

[Koffeegirl]

@Miri1984 I read your fanfics on DA and I love them. You do a great jon of writing Anders and Sebastian.....please keep writing them:)

Also, When Sebastian threatens to bring the army to hunt you and Anders I think in my head," By the time you walk to Starkhaven and back here Anders and I will be long gone."

[Koffeegirl]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Miri1984 wrote...

The blatant hypocrisy of abandoning his vows to seek revenge after I've spent the game being nice to him also doesn't help.

That strikes me as similar to the "Alistair ditching me at the Landsmeet if I spare Loghain is out of character" argument.

In that it's not really true.  Up until then you weren't actively defending people who blew up Chantries and killed his friend.  If you were and he was okay with it then, and angry with it now - that'd be hypocritical - but there's nothing else in the game to compare it to.  It's perfectly reasonable for someone like him to demand Anders' execution and explode in anger if you even question that it ought to be done. 

It reminded me of Alistair at the Landsmeet too

[Herr Uhl]

signcherie wrote...

Wanting Anders dead could be seen as justice. Wanting to raze Kirkwall with his Starkhaven army is twisting justice into vengeance. Much as Anders' anger twists Justice into Vengeance.

His "family" for the last decade, and the last remaining friends (outside of your group) he had died there. I think it is reasonable to react the way he did. I mean, Alistair knew Duncan and the Wardens for a year, and he managed to spend an entire year lusting for revenge and hating you if you won't satisfy the death.

[Siduri]

ipgd wrote...

I think it just comes down to separating a character's likability as a person and their value as a character. I'd probably probably want to kick Sebastian in the nads if I knew him in real life, but I like him as a character. He's very wishy-washy and hypocritical, but it's interesting.

Opposite for me with Bethany, I guess. I'd like her if I met her, but she's very... well-adjusted and boring as a character. I always liked Carver better because of that. I prefer the horrible screwups.

It sounds like we have really similar taste. I've nothing against Bethany, but she doesn't inspire much feeling from me. Meanwhile my love for Carver grows every time I have him in the party.

[Muzzlepuffs]

Herr Uhl wrote...

You mean compared to the Anders NOOOOO in the tranquil quest?

You know, I just played through that one again last night, and I don't recall a NOOOOO at all. It's probably not an issue of writing for me, but an issue of voice acting. There was something extremely over the top with the delivery of Sebastian's NOOOOO, that I ended up laughing during a scene that should have been serious. It broke my emotional connection with the moment, but I never had a problem with any of the other scenes.

[Ninche]

Again, I know they can, because Anders already did it in Darktown.

[quote]But you have to accept people as they are and stand by them right? [/quote]

Well, no, you don't have to. My Hawke did run off with Anders to be a freedom fighter because she still believes in the cause, but she has some serious disagreements regarding intelligent tactics.

And I do want to reiterate, because I think you missed the bit where I said it originally, that I'm at least willing to consider the idea that this one act might, ultimately, do more good than harm--that is, the benefits of uniting the mages in resistance might outweigh the huge hit taken to public sympathy. I don't know. But turning the people against the mages isn't a smart thing to take as a goal.
[/quote]

I don't think Anders'goals were to turn ordinary people against the mages, not at all. 
The way I see it, any path leading to mages' freedom goes through the chantry, I can't see people suddenly rejecting the teachings of their maker to accept this new idea that mages are actually NOT cursed and, in fact, very decent people. Maybe a few of them - sure, people who have been in personal contact with healer mages, people who lost family to the circle - but the majority of the population will always look up to their chantries for guidance. The war had to start with a violent act against the chantry, since it really does need to be brought down, there is alot more evil they do than just torment mages. It's unfortunate that Anders himself is a mage and therefore some people will assume all mages support his views. At least most of the people who were there heard him say that he acted alone and did not represent any mage organisation or anything like that. 
The Chantry is the institution that controls the templars alos, you can't fight the templars without fighting the chantry.

And as for Anders spreading his manifesto, you mainly find it in Hawke's house - I think it's one of these cases of: people who are smart enough to think for themselves already understand his point of view, and people who can;t see beyond the chant probably never will. In fact, people in Darktown probably liked Anders because he healed them for free and didn't necessarily believe in his cause enough to support mages. 

I really can't say what's going to happen: I am also hoping that the mage resistance will win public sympathy somehow and whatever they do won't lead to a system similar to the tevinter emperium. I really do hope there is another option. 

[shiba5]

Muzzlepuffs wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

You mean compared to the Anders NOOOOO in the tranquil quest?

You know, I just played through that one again last night, and I don't recall a NOOOOO at all. It's probably not an issue of writing for me, but an issue of voice acting. There was something extremely over the top with the delivery of Sebastian's NOOOOO, that I ended up laughing during a scene that should have been serious. It broke my emotional connection with the moment, but I never had a problem with any of the other scenes.

I don't recall it either so it must not compare. Seb's is just so over the top it stands out.

[CatOfEvilGenius]

Trophonius wrote...

(...stuff snipped...)

Maybe not in our world (of course, being a gay man and understanding what it feels like to be treated as second class citizen, I would want nothing more than for the injustices to stop), but in his world? Definitely. In fact, without that same wake up call, mages wouldn't have machinated such a large scale insurrection to make it known that they only desire the same rights entitled to everyone else. You can defend Elthina and the Chantry all you want, but it doesn't relieve them of responsibility for the atrocities they've committed against a group of people who cant control a genetic predisposition.

Additionally, all evidence points against compromise. Templars and mages are getting restless and arguments between Meredith and Orsino were absolutely going NOWHERE. For 3 years, Kirkwall has gone in a state of dissolution with no real authority to solve it. Anders stepped in to make all of them see what's truly important, effectively inspiring others to abandon their inaction and realize that to achieve freedom, you must do something about it.

I am not defending Elthina's stance, nor the Chantry's teachings, both are wrong.

Don't compromise, yes.  Stop the injustice?  Yes.  Inspire the masses, do something big and symbolic and explody, sure.  Just pick a better target.  How about Meredith's office?  How about the zealot templar bar where all the zealot templars hang out in their off hours and talk about how they hate robes soooo much?  Granted, that wasn't shown in game, but surely they have such a bar.   Either of those would have been a far more deserving target than the Chantry where orginary people go to pray and where most brothers and sisters were not directly responsible for the oppression at the Circle.

I have to agree with Siduri's argument that Anders would have done much better with the free clinic and leaflet approach in the long run.

Modifié par CatOfEvilGenius, 01 avril 2011 - 08:11 .

[upsettingshorts]

Ninche wrote...

And as for Anders spreading his manifesto, you mainly find it in Hawke's house - I think it's one of these cases of: people who are smart enough to think for themselves already understand his point of view, and people who can;t see beyond the chant probably never will.

I just want to point out it is possible to be a free thinking intelligent person and still oppose Anders.  I don't know why I want to point this out, but there it is.

Ninche wrote...

I really can't say what's going to happen: I am also hoping that the mage resistance will win public sympathy somehow and whatever they do won't lead to a system similar to the tevinter emperium. I really do hope there is another option.

I think this whole thing is going to get really ugly really fast.  And the lack of widespread popular support for the mages is going to be a big problem. 

As far as the Tevinter outcome, well the mages would have to win a decisive victory for that to happen.  And maybe if Sandal's prophecy comes true that'd be possible, otherwise - well, there'd have to be a lot of death for that outcome.

Finally my "compromise" would be to break up the Kirkwall Circle of Magi and have them transported to different Circles across Thedas - to areas where the Veil isn't so thin.  Then as part of that same move, downscale the Templar presence in Kirkwall to match the fact there is no longer a Circle in the city.  Then either remove or promote Meredith into a position within the Chantry where she has no real power. 

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 01 avril 2011 - 08:13 .

[signcherie]

Herr Uhl wrote...

signcherie wrote...

Wanting Anders dead could be seen as justice. Wanting to raze Kirkwall with his Starkhaven army is twisting justice into vengeance. Much as Anders' anger twists Justice into Vengeance.

His "family" for the last decade, and the last remaining friends (outside of your group) he had died there. I think it is reasonable to react the way he did. I mean, Alistair knew Duncan and the Wardens for a year, and he managed to spend an entire year lusting for revenge and hating you if you won't satisfy the death.

I'm not saying it's not reasonable. But I still think it goes out of the realm of justice and into the realm of vengeance. As he points out, it's Anders who should be punished. Yet he's just as willing to take it out on all of Kirkwall.

I don't hate Seb, personally. I'm pretty meh about him. I was just attempting to explain the justice/vengeance connection in regards to him.

[Amondra]

Trophonius wrote...

CatOfEvilGenius wrote...

Trophonius wrote...

With regards to Chantry innocents: when you say that the Blight was obviated by the will of the Maker and not even give credit where it's due (Grey Warden/Hero of Ferelden), that's when you stop being innocent. You're allowing yourself to fall victim to sheer ignorance and blind faith instead of accepting reality as it is and doing something about it.

All I saw was Anders giving them a macabre, but much needed wake up call.

I see a lot of ignorance and blind faith in the real world.  It irks me quite a bit.  In some cases, it leads to actual oppression of women, of homosexuals, and so on.  So, by your reasoning, I suppose I should start blowing up churches now?  (I have no intention of blowing up anything, for the record.)

Maybe not in our world (of course, being a gay man and understanding what it feels like to be treated as second class citizen, I would want nothing more than for the injustices to stop), but in his world? Definitely. In fact, without that same wake up call, mages wouldn't have machinated such a large scale insurrection to make it known that they only desire the same rights entitled to everyone else. You can defend Elthina and the Chantry all you want, but it doesn't relieve them of responsibility for the atrocities they've committed against a group of people who cant control a genetic predisposition.

Additionally, all evidence points against compromise. Templars and mages are getting restless and arguments between Meredith and Orsino were absolutely going NOWHERE. For 3 years, Kirkwall has gone in a state of dissolution with no real authority to solve it. Anders stepped in to make all of them see what's truly important, effectively inspiring others to abandon their inaction and realize that to achieve freedom, you must do something about it.

The way I look at it, I don't bring real life anything to a game where I kill dragons, can romance an elf or a mage, or games where I kill aliens.  So I am always for starting an uprising for the opressed, the under dogs, over throwing a power that has had it all gone to their heads *Muse 'Uprising' playing* 

Also at least the games I play, all things around changing the world or kingdom as it may be for the better always kicked off with an uprising, that turns into a war, and innocents get killed no doubt, that happens sadly in war no matter how noble the cause might be, it is sad no doubt.

But like someone said before, history is written by the victor and Anders will be remembered as a hero or a murderer, that depends on the endings you choose in future games I would imagine.

I shocked and shakened up over what happened, but I ended up sparing him and siding with the mages, because I wasn't going to lead this uprising with out the man who started it lol.

[Herr Uhl]

signcherie wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

signcherie wrote...

Wanting Anders dead could be seen as justice. Wanting to raze Kirkwall with his Starkhaven army is twisting justice into vengeance. Much as Anders' anger twists Justice into Vengeance.

His "family" for the last decade, and the last remaining friends (outside of your group) he had died there. I think it is reasonable to react the way he did. I mean, Alistair knew Duncan and the Wardens for a year, and he managed to spend an entire year lusting for revenge and hating you if you won't satisfy the death.

I'm not saying it's not reasonable. But I still think it goes out of the realm of justice and into the realm of vengeance. As he points out, it's Anders who should be punished. Yet he's just as willing to take it out on all of Kirkwall.

I don't hate Seb, personally. I'm pretty meh about him. I was just attempting to explain the justice/vengeance connection in regards to him.

I don't think he is actually going to raise an army and "raze Kirkwall" that was just a spur of the moment thing. He'll likely have people looking for Anders though (like half of Thedas).

[upsettingshorts]

If Kirkwall shelters Anders, that changes things quite a bit.

It would basically mean that Kirkwall and Starkhaven are on opposite sides in a war. An assault of the former by the latter would make sense in that context.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 01 avril 2011 - 08:16 .

[CatOfEvilGenius]

signcherie wrote...

(...snip...)

I'm not saying it's not reasonable. But I still think it goes out of the realm of justice and into the realm of vengeance. As he points out, it's Anders who should be punished. Yet he's just as willing to take it out on all of Kirkwall.

He's not in his right mind at the time he shouts this, methinks.  I don't care for Sebastian's views at all, find him quite annoying, but that bit at the end is growing on me.  When he shouts he'll raise an army to come after my precious Anders (evil bloodmage Hawke playthrough), it reminds me a bit of Delenn screaming "Kill them all!  Animals!  No mercy!" in Babylon5, after the death of her mentor Dukat.  She deeply regretted her rash words later on.  Perhaps Sebastian might have reconsidered storming Kirkwall with an army, once his initial shock and grief and rage subsided.  I still don't like him, but appreciate the writing for that part of the story.

Modifié par CatOfEvilGenius, 01 avril 2011 - 08:18 .

[Miri1984]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Miri1984 wrote...

The blatant hypocrisy of abandoning his vows to seek revenge after I've spent the game being nice to him also doesn't help.

That strikes me as similar to the "Alistair ditching me at the Landsmeet if I spare Loghain is out of character" argument.

In that it's not really true.  Up until then you weren't actively defending people who blew up Chantries and killed his friend.  If you were and he was okay with it then, and angry with it now - that'd be hypocritical - but there's nothing else in the game to compare it to.  It's perfectly reasonable for someone like him to demand Anders' execution and explode in anger if you even question that it ought to be done. 

Perhaps it is. I don't like that Alistair runs off because you spare Loghain, and I can understand why he does it. Similarly I can perfectly understand why Sebastian runs off to betray his vows for revenge. Doesn't mean I have to like him. It's a character crisis, and I think it's done very well, but in the case of Alistair, I like him, and I understand it, and my wardens always let him kill Loghain (unless they've married him off to Anora first). In the case of Sebastian, I don't like him, he spent the game irritating me, and the betrayal at the end just serves to tick me off.

I certainly don't hate the WRITING of Sebastian. I enjoy what he adds to the game and I'll always do his quests. I just don't like the guy himself