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[Trophonius]

CatOfEvilGenius wrote...

Trophonius wrote...

(...stuff snipped...)

Maybe not in our world (of course, being a gay man and understanding what it feels like to be treated as second class citizen, I would want nothing more than for the injustices to stop), but in his world? Definitely. In fact, without that same wake up call, mages wouldn't have machinated such a large scale insurrection to make it known that they only desire the same rights entitled to everyone else. You can defend Elthina and the Chantry all you want, but it doesn't relieve them of responsibility for the atrocities they've committed against a group of people who cant control a genetic predisposition.

Additionally, all evidence points against compromise. Templars and mages are getting restless and arguments between Meredith and Orsino were absolutely going NOWHERE. For 3 years, Kirkwall has gone in a state of dissolution with no real authority to solve it. Anders stepped in to make all of them see what's truly important, effectively inspiring others to abandon their inaction and realize that to achieve freedom, you must do something about it.

I am not defending Elthina's stance, nor the Chantry's teachings, both are wrong.

Don't compromise, yes.  Stop the injustice?  Yes.  Inspire the masses, do something big and symbolic and explody, sure.  Just pick a better target.  How about Meredith's office?  How about the zealot templar bar where all the zealot templars hang out in their off hours and talk about how they hate robes soooo much?  Granted, that wasn't shown in game, but surely they have such a bar.   Either of those would have been a far more deserving target than the Chantry where orginary people go to pray and where most brothers and sisters were not directly responsible for the oppression at the Circle.

I have to agree with Siduri's argument that Anders would have done much better with the free clinic and leaflet approach in the long run.

This won't work because he'd have essentially blown up the Templar's Headquarters where the Kirkwall Circle is in the same vicinity. That's not exactly a wise target to blow off steam.

For the record, destroying the templar headquarters wouldn've changed anything. The Chantry is the highest form of authority and the templars submit to its commands. By blowing it up, people finally come to their senses and understand that impassivity doesn't work anymore. Faith alone can't save them.

Amondra wrote...

I shocked and shakened up over what happened, but I ended up sparing him
and siding with the mages, because I wasn't going to lead this uprising
with out the man who started it lol.

Exactly this! Anders should be able to finish what he began. If anything's more cruel than death, it's that he gets to face some humiliation and countenance along the way (if the mage revolt was largely unsuccessful). The thing about him is he doesn't hold anybody accountable for his crimes. He entirely accepts the blame and admits that he acted alone.

EDIT: stupid link wasn't working

Modifié par Trophonius, 01 avril 2011 - 08:46 .

[ipgd]

CatOfEvilGenius wrote...

Trophonius wrote...

(...stuff snipped...)

Maybe not in our world (of course, being a gay man and understanding what it feels like to be treated as second class citizen, I would want nothing more than for the injustices to stop), but in his world? Definitely. In fact, without that same wake up call, mages wouldn't have machinated such a large scale insurrection to make it known that they only desire the same rights entitled to everyone else. You can defend Elthina and the Chantry all you want, but it doesn't relieve them of responsibility for the atrocities they've committed against a group of people who cant control a genetic predisposition.

Additionally, all evidence points against compromise. Templars and mages are getting restless and arguments between Meredith and Orsino were absolutely going NOWHERE. For 3 years, Kirkwall has gone in a state of dissolution with no real authority to solve it. Anders stepped in to make all of them see what's truly important, effectively inspiring others to abandon their inaction and realize that to achieve freedom, you must do something about it.

I am not defending Elthina's stance, nor the Chantry's teachings, both are wrong.

Don't compromise, yes.  Stop the injustice?  Yes.  Inspire the masses, do something big and symbolic and explody, sure.  Just pick a better target.  How about Meredith's office?  How about the zealot templar bar where all the zealot templars hang out in their off hours and talk about how they hate robes soooo much?  Granted, that wasn't shown in game, but surely they have such a bar.   Either of those would have been a far more deserving target than the Chantry where orginary people go to pray and where most brothers and sisters were not directly responsible for the oppression at the Circle.

I have to agree with Siduri's argument that Anders would have done much better with the free clinic and leaflet approach in the long run.

I don't think bombing Meredith/the templars would have had the same effect. The point was to eliminate compromise, after all; his actions were supposed to absolutely polarize everyone, and attacking a religious figure is one of the easiest ways to do that. Bombing a military organization is much more easily justifiable (relatively speaking), and there would be more people calling upon the templars for mercy, etc. Attacking Elthina ensured that practically everyone, even people who didn't have a personal stake in the conflict beforehand, would be galvanized and a full-out war would be inevitable.

[Ninche]

I just want to point out it is possible to be a free thinking intelligent person and still oppose Anders.  I don't know why I want to point this out, but there it is.

You can oppose Anders and his methods but surely you wouldn't fail to see why the Chantry system is disfunctional and outdated and why it needs to be changed. When it comes to people's rights sand freedoms compromise is unacceptable. It might turn out there is NO compromise and only the tevinter and chantry systems could work but I find that hard to believe. Especially because nobody has tried to change things and try something new before.

I think this whole thing is going to get really ugly really fast.  And the lack of widespread popular support for the mages is going to be a big problem.

As far as the Tevinter outcome, well the mages would have to win a decisive victory for that to happen.  And maybe if Sandal's prophecy comes true that'd be possible, otherwise - well, there'd have to be a lot of death for that outcome.

Finally my "compromise" would be to break up the Kirkwall Circle of Magi and have them transported to different Circles across Thedas - to areas where the Veil isn't so thin.  Then as part of that same move, downscale the Templar presence in Kirkwall to match the fact there is no longer a Circle in the city.  Then either remove or promote Meredith into a position within the Chantry where she has no real power.

I definitely do not support the rising of another emperium in any way - I hate their system almost as much as i hate the chantry's. But basically what you are saying is that you would find a way to patch the Kirkwall situation up, ship away the mages and get rid of Meredith but that doesn't change anything about the way mages are treated all over Thedas? Unless, of course, you don't want to change the way the circles operate at all in which case your ideas make perfect sense.  

Modifié par Ninche, 01 avril 2011 - 08:23 .

[Herr Uhl]

Trophonius wrote...

This won't work because he'd have essentially blown up the Templar's Headquarters where the Kirkwall Circle is in the same vicinity. That's not exactly a wise target to blow off steam.

What about killing Meredith right there? And surely the mage quarters and templar ones are secluded.

[ipgd]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Trophonius wrote...

This won't work because he'd have essentially blown up the Templar's Headquarters where the Kirkwall Circle is in the same vicinity. That's not exactly a wise target to blow off steam.

What about killing Meredith right there? And surely the mage quarters and templar ones are secluded.

Then Meredith wouldn't have called for the Right of Anullment. Cullen would have taken control and executed Anders.

Anders was very specifically playing off Meredith's fervor. He knew exactly how she would react. Without her extremism, he wouldn't have been able to engineer the conflict.

[signcherie]

Herr Uhl wrote...

signcherie wrote...


I'm not saying it's not reasonable. But I still think it goes out of the realm of justice and into the realm of vengeance. As he points out, it's Anders who should be punished. Yet he's just as willing to take it out on all of Kirkwall.

I don't hate Seb, personally. I'm pretty meh about him. I was just attempting to explain the justice/vengeance connection in regards to him.

I don't think he is actually going to raise an army and "raze Kirkwall" that was just a spur of the moment thing. He'll likely have people looking for Anders though (like half of Thedas).

Well, hopefully we'll get to see what he does do.

I agree that he seems to lose confidence in his convictions with time. Even Elthina comments about how he seems to go back and forth. So yeah, I wouldn't be surprised if he does back down (at least somewhat). I was just looking at what he says in game, since we can't know yet what actually comes of that encounter. But, yeah, you could be right.

[upsettingshorts]

Ninche wrote...

But basically what you are saying is that you would find a way to patch the Kirkwall situation up, ship away the mages and get rid of Meredith but that doesn't change anything about the way mages are treated all over Thedas? Unless, of course, you don't want to change the way the circles operate at all in which case your ideas make perfect sense. 

My Hawke was pro-reform of the Circles, but there was no way at all reform was going to be accomplished through Kirkwall.  That place was/is a powder keg.  In fact the way the game plays out, a war inevitably starts there, and all you decide is who wins the first battle.  Sort of.

As long as Kirkwall existed as a bad example for everyone - overzealous Templars, Blood Mages everywhere - it would be a huge roadblock to progress.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 01 avril 2011 - 08:30 .

[Purposeof-Flight]

Somebody make a joke.
This discussion is getting too serious for my immature girl-brain.

[leggywillow]

Purposeof-Flight wrote...

Somebody make a joke.
This discussion is getting too serious for my immature girl-brain.

Anders: Smiting Hawke with his staff of righteousness since 2011

[Purposeof-Flight]

leggywillow wrote...

Purposeof-Flight wrote...

Somebody make a joke.
This discussion is getting too serious for my immature girl-brain.

Anders: Smiting Hawke with his staff of righteousness since 2011

That's more like it!

[Muzzlepuffs]

leggywillow wrote...

Purposeof-Flight wrote...

Somebody make a joke.
This discussion is getting too serious for my immature girl-brain.

Anders: Smiting Hawke with his staff of righteousness since 2011

*applause*

For the joke and the "smiting."

[upsettingshorts]

leggywillow wrote...

Anders: Smiting Hawke with his staff of righteousness since 2011

Sebastian: "Staff?  More like plugging Hawke's bottle with a wine cork since 2011.  If you know what I mean."

[SurelyForth]

Purposeof-Flight wrote...

Somebody make a joke.
This discussion is getting too serious for my immature girl-brain.

Such is the price we pay for an afternoon of frivolty and Zoolander gifs. Like Anders, we must swing wildly from extreme to extreme.

Which is fine by me. I love this discussion and if I hadn't burned through my weekly allotment of caring too much about a video game on Wednesday, I'd be doing more than reading it.

@leggywillow ****. Now I want to change the thread title again.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 01 avril 2011 - 08:39 .

[mellifera]

Is Anders putting a collar on Fenris in the pic at the top of the page?

what is even

[Herr Uhl]

ipgd wrote...

Then Meredith wouldn't have called for the Right of Anullment. Cullen would have taken control and executed Anders.

Anders was very specifically playing off Meredith's fervor. He knew exactly how she would react. Without her extremism, he wouldn't have been able to engineer the conflict.

Wouldn't he have been a martyr then too, and without making the populace afraid of mages. I just think it seems like a dumb move, if he wants anything but war where the mages end up ruling or being slaves.

[Ninche]

Okay I'm officially quitting any serious discussions and arguments for tonight and will only respond to ultimate silliness. And since nobody paid attention to this before I am re-posting it, it's BRILLIANT:



cheru-cheru.deviantart.com/#/d3cizy1

Modifié par Ninche, 01 avril 2011 - 08:44 .

[leggywillow]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

leggywillow wrote...

Anders: Smiting Hawke with his staff of righteousness since 2011

Sebastian: "Staff?  More like plugging Hawke's bottle with a wine cork since 2011.  If you know what I mean."

Oh, he's more than capable of shanking her Jory.

EDIT: Playing All That Remains right now... that definitely has Anders' worst line ever.

Anders: I wonder if we'll find more than a sack of bones this time?
Hawke: O_O ::bursts into tears::

Modifié par leggywillow, 01 avril 2011 - 08:48 .

[ipgd]

Herr Uhl wrote...

ipgd wrote...

Then Meredith wouldn't have called for the Right of Anullment. Cullen would have taken control and executed Anders.

Anders was very specifically playing off Meredith's fervor. He knew exactly how she would react. Without her extremism, he wouldn't have been able to engineer the conflict.

Wouldn't he have been a martyr then too, and without making the populace afraid of mages. I just think it seems like a dumb move, if he wants anything but war where the mages end up ruling or being slaves.

That's exactly what he wants. He wants a bloodly, full-on war where the mages free themselves or die trying. For that to happen, the public has to feel like mages are such a danger they need to be completely wiped out. To ensure the mages fight back in solidarity, they need to feel like they have no other option. Whether or not it works is yet to be seen.

[signcherie]

Ninche wrote...

Okay I'm officially quitting any serious discussions and arguments for tonight and will only respond to ultimate silliness. And since nobody paid attention to this before I am re-posting it, it's BRILLIANT:



cheru-cheru.deviantart.com/#/d3cizy1

This is one of my absolute favorites. The benefits...and downfalls...of dating a mage.

[Trophonius]

yukidama wrote...

Is Anders putting a collar on Fenris in the pic at the top of the page?

what is even

Must be a slave-master fetish. Those frayed slaver ropes had use after all. XD

lol, rivalmance between Fenris and Anders would probably entail throwing each other against walls and pulling each other's hair.

Modifié par Trophonius, 01 avril 2011 - 08:56 .

[Sialater]

CatOfEvilGenius wrote...

Don't compromise, yes.  Stop the injustice?  Yes.  Inspire the masses, do something big and symbolic and explody, sure.  Just pick a better target.  How about Meredith's office?  How about the zealot templar bar where all the zealot templars hang out in their off hours and talk about how they hate robes soooo much?  Granted, that wasn't shown in game, but surely they have such a bar.   Either of those would have been a far more deserving target than the Chantry where orginary people go to pray and where most brothers and sisters were not directly responsible for the oppression at the Circle.

I have to agree with Siduri's argument that Anders would have done much better with the free clinic and leaflet approach in the long run.

Did you EVER see any ordinary people in the Chantry?

[upsettingshorts]

Sialater wrote...

Did you EVER see any ordinary people in the Chantry?

Did you ever see the supposedly thousands upon thousands of refugees that were suffocating Kirkwall?

The point is there's a lot of stuff we don't see due to the limitations of the game.  It doesn't mean they weren't there.

Unless we're supposed to believe that no-one goes to services in Kirkwall.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 01 avril 2011 - 08:55 .

[Herr Uhl]

ipgd wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

Wouldn't he have been a martyr then too, and without making the populace afraid of mages. I just think it seems like a dumb move, if he wants anything but war where the mages end up ruling or being slaves.

That's exactly what he wants. He wants a bloodly, full-on war where the mages free themselves or die trying. For that to happen, the public has to feel like mages are such a danger they need to be completely wiped out. To ensure the mages fight back in solidarity, they need to feel like they have no other option. Whether or not it works is yet to be seen.

So he is going to replace one kind of despot with another? That is his Justice? His plan seems badly thought out at best, but that is just my opinion.

Sialater wrote...


Did you EVER see any ordinary people in the Chantry?

There was a guy praying to get rid of his rash.

Modifié par Herr Uhl, 01 avril 2011 - 08:57 .

[LastFadingSmile]

leggywillow wrote...


EDIT: Playing All That Remains right now... that definitely has Anders' worst line ever.

Anders: I wonder if we'll find more than a sack of bones this time?
Hawke: O_O ::bursts into tears::

Hahaha oh god I'd forgotten about that complete lack of tact on his part.

[Sialater]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Did you EVER see any ordinary people in the Chantry?

Did you ever see the supposedly thousands upon thousands of refugees that were suffocating Kirkwall?

The point is there's a lot of stuff we don't see due to the limitations of the game.  It doesn't mean they weren't there.

Unless we're supposed to believe that no-one goes to services in Kirkwall.

There were quite a few in Darktown.

You know... where the Chantry won't go.

Modifié par Sialater, 01 avril 2011 - 08:58 .