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[Trophonius]

Like I've said before, Anders didn't just become a bipolar terrorist overnight. The way the Chantry/templars treated him and his kind convoluted his mental and emotional processes to the point where it damaged him. I can't and will never side with someone like Meredith, who basically wants to expunge the existence of all mages. The way she berates mages in front of Orsino and the way she reacted to Anders' complete obliteration of the chantry is exactly the reason why mages like Anders exist in the first place. She was practically just looking for a reason to invoke the Right of Annulment. What would've stopped her from thanking Anders for giving her a reason to do so?

Modifié par Trophonius, 11 mars 2011 - 06:11 .

[highcastle]

Trophonius wrote...

Like I've said before, Anders didn't just become a bipolar terrorist overnight.

QFT. I romanced Anders for my first playthrough, and while it'd definitely heartbreaking at the end, it doesn't come out of nowhere. You can see the signs throughout the whole game, but in the third act especially. Between his trying to give his personal belongings away to his distancing himself from Hawke, you know right away this won't end well. I don't think I quite expected him to be so dramatic about it, but it wasn't OOC.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Yes, it is all a matter of perspective. In my head, the Templars and to an extent the Chantry have been practicing terrorism by preaching fear for a very long time. And as was mentioned before, Andraste didn't write a strongly-worded letter to the Tevinters. She started a war that must have killed thousands upon thousands. And I'm sure not everyone thought she was all there in the head, either, at the time. All the information we have about her was written by the hands of the victor.

Either way... Anders being a murderer or no, there's no way I can condone the persecution of people who are born with magic they didn't choose to have, and then strip them of all rights. They are still children of the Maker. The Chantry doctrine will always have an unfair bias towards the Templars, and most people just bury their heads in the sand about it.

It's quite interesting how a game like this can shake our morals to our very core. Well done, Bioware.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 11 mars 2011 - 06:14 .

[HolyJellyfish]

I mentioned this in another thread, and I'll mention it here.

Hepler did a fantastic job writing (re-writing?) his character. Act 1 & Act 2 was slow for build up, and his romance was rather heartbreaking looking back on it (from the end) because you definitely get the sense that he had been planning blowing up the chantry since he landed on Kirkwall, and any romantic ties would ruin the people around him (as he promises time and time again).

What I'm fascinated by is that Anders had become a sort of... Reverse Andraste. Whereas Andraste fought AGAINST the mages, and is speculated to be a mage herself, in order to free Thedas from the tyranny of the Tevinter Imperium - Anders was the reverse. He instead fought to free Mages from the tyranny of Templars and the Circle - while giving insight into his own interpretation of Andraste's text. He didn't disagree with her, he revered her words, but disagreed with the corrupt relationship between the Templars and the Chantry.

Which is equally fascinating, because after the Church is destroyed, you clearly have the choice to make Anders a Martyr. which, I am sure, is something he anticipated.

Anders = Andraste.

Clever... very clever parallels there.

[upsettingshorts]

Meredith waits for or manufactures excuses to escalate the conflict.
Anders escalates the conflict and doesn't believe he needs an excuse.

Meredith is a zealous, paranoid megalomaniac.
Anders is a fanatical, self-righteous terrorist.

Neither came out of nowhere. Neither is totally unjustifiable (mages are not normal people / mages have not been treated fairly). If I had my way I would have strung both of them up by their ankles. But that wouldn't have made for an interesting story.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 11 mars 2011 - 06:30 .

[karliahs]

I still support Anders and the complete liberation of mages, despite what our snarky, crazy mage did.

While I feel like a villain for supporting him though, because of the whole killing innocents thing, it's the Chantry and I do not and cannot support their oppression of mages. It's a revolution, not debate team.

But, that's just my opinion.

[upsettingshorts]

I just said this in another thread - with a related topic - but in the end you basically choose between implicitly endorsing terrorism or implicitly endorsing the police state. Such decisions will inevitably make Hawke a villain to some, and a hero to others. That's why "who is the Champion of Kirkwall" is important, and that's why the story does have a satisfying conclusion - to me anyway - because we do get to determine precisely that.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 11 mars 2011 - 07:18 .

[leggywillow]

yukidama wrote...

That's strange. I got the "You aren't going to lose me." line as well.

Also, the sarcastic option there is ridiculous.
Anders: "I love you."
Hawke: "Want a sandwich?"

Aww, I want the right line!   

And I love sarcastic/humorous Hawke.  If you go that route, Hawke is just batty.  She is absolutely in her own world most of the time.  Most other people don't find her at all amusing, and I love it.  I didn't take the sandwich line because I'm a sucker for sap, but I do love Anders's response to it.  He just laughs at her and says "You will inspire a generation of romantic poets."

Trophonius wrote...

Like I've said before, Anders didn't just become a bipolar terrorist overnight.

This.

Actually, I think the most heartbreaking thing in the entire game for an Anders fangirl, for me even moreso than the Chantry explosion, was his Codex entry for Act 3.  It basically says that he's getting more paranoid and bipolar, with episodes of depression and mania, and that he often said Hawke was the only thing keeping him sane.

The mental images that gave me of their relationship were just heartbreaking.  I could picture him in his mania, prowling around the estate scribbling his manifesto and then getting angry and throwing it in the fireplace over and over.  I could see Hawke trying to cope with his mood swings.    It felt very real to me.

I am a desperate fangirl in this regard, so I of course spared Anders's life and stayed with him.  As far as Varric knew, they were still together.  But how long could it possibly last?  Would things coming to a head in Kirkwall relieve some of the pressure and help him calm down again?  Or will Justice keep getting worse and worse until he finally can't handle it anymore and even Hawke isn't enough to keep him (arguably) sane?

Lady Moof wrote...
While I feel like a villain for supporting him though, because of the whole killing innocents thing, it's the Chantry and I do not and cannot support their oppression of mages. It's a revolution, not debate team.

This.  I support him and I understand why he did it.  But wow, it feels wrong.  The overall message I took from the ending was "Holy crap, I am desperately glad I don't have to make decisions like that in my real life."

Modifié par leggywillow, 11 mars 2011 - 06:50 .

[Lady Jess]

highcastle wrote...

Trophonius wrote...

Like I've said before, Anders didn't just become a bipolar terrorist overnight.

QFT. I romanced Anders for my first playthrough, and while it'd definitely heartbreaking at the end, it doesn't come out of nowhere. You can see the signs throughout the whole game, but in the third act especially. Between his trying to give his personal belongings away to his distancing himself from Hawke, you know right away this won't end well. I don't think I quite expected him to be so dramatic about it, but it wasn't OOC.

Wait, I'm halfway through act 2, and even though he's supposed to, he still isn't ACTUALLY in my Hawke's  house (ie: living with Hawke). And now in 3 he's going to get all distant? How much more distant can he GET? There was ONe love scene and back to business as usual.Feels more like his one night stand than the Hawke he loves. Sigh, color me stupid for having so much fun earlier.

[upsettingshorts]

yukidama wrote...

That's strange. I got the "You aren't going to lose me." line as well.

Also, the sarcastic option there is ridiculous.
Anders: "I love you."
Hawke: "Want a sandwich?"

Fat Apollo gains +100 Friendship

[leggywillow]

Lady Jess wrote...

Wait, I'm halfway through act 2, and even though he's supposed to, he still isn't ACTUALLY in my Hawke's  house (ie: living with Hawke). And now in 3 he's going to get all distant? How much more distant can he GET? There was ONe love scene and back to business as usual.Feels more like his one night stand than the Hawke he loves. Sigh, color me stupid for having so much fun earlier.

Yep, sadly there is much less romance in general in DA2 than in Origins.  What's there is sexy and awesome as hell (I refuse to admit how many times I've replayed the Anders kiss scene), but once you get the fade-to-black scene, the sexy/awesome is done.

He is officially living in your house at this point, though, even if he's never there.  I had Bodahn saying "It's been nice having Master Anders around", even though I couldn't find him.  XD  And he has a short dialogue scene after a sad spoiler-y part in Act 2.  Maybe you can actually find him in the house after that?  I don't remember.

In Act 3, he was in the house the whole time.  He stands up on the landing IIRC.

[Lady Jess]

leggywillow wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

Wait, I'm halfway through act 2, and even though he's supposed to, he still isn't ACTUALLY in my Hawke's  house (ie: living with Hawke). And now in 3 he's going to get all distant? How much more distant can he GET? There was ONe love scene and back to business as usual.Feels more like his one night stand than the Hawke he loves. Sigh, color me stupid for having so much fun earlier.

Yep, sadly there is much less romance in general in DA2 than in Origins.  What's there is sexy and awesome as hell (I refuse to admit how many times I've replayed the Anders kiss scene), but once you get the fade-to-black scene, the sexy/awesome is done.

He is officially living in your house at this point, though, even if he's never there.  I had Bodahn saying "It's been nice having Master Anders around", even though I couldn't find him.  XD  And he has a short dialogue scene after a sad spoiler-y part in Act 2.  Maybe you can actually find him in the house after that?  I don't remember.

In Act 3, he was in the house the whole time.  He stands up on the landing IIRC.

He outdid Alistair in that sad part thats for sure. I almost boohooed outloud. I hope the modders figure out repeating scenes again. <_<

Anyhow, no, still not there. Must not happen til Act 3 I guess and maybe Bodahn is buggy. It could have been better for longer Bioware. Seriously, you came sooooooo close to "right" and then...

Modifié par Lady Jess, 11 mars 2011 - 07:37 .

[Uhh.. Jonah]

I'm sorry... but Anders really bugged me in DA2. He never shut up about the mages It's like he couldn't talk about anything else and yea I was on their side but damn he went a little too far. . ESPECIALLY what he did at the ending. I would have killed him but I'm just such a nice guy.

[leggywillow]

Uhh.. Jonah wrote...

I'm sorry... but Anders really bugged me in DA2. He never shut up about the mages It's like he couldn't talk about anything else and yea I was on their side but damn he went a little too far. . ESPECIALLY what he did at the ending. I would have killed him but I'm just such a nice guy.

LOL, you may like bringing Carver along with him then.

Carver: "I don't hate you because you're a mage; I hate you because you won't shut up about it!"

ETA:

Does anyone have any information about rival-mancing Anders?  YouTube videos or anything?  I'm very curious about that, since I read in another thread that he spends a lot of time trying to persuade you to his side in the mage debate.

Modifié par leggywillow, 11 mars 2011 - 07:54 .

[Uhh.. Jonah]

Oh I did Actually most of his banter with party members consisted of him talking about the mages.

[Jean]

Nah, I didn't believe him when he talked about it. It seemed way too simple and just... "Yep. Just this potion. No ritual. Will work."
My head: "No you didn't."
Never would of guessed blowing up the Chantry was on the agenda. I wonder if he always planned that?

Never would of guessed the items you gathered would of made an explosion like that happen either. The sky was freaky looking too.


But the biggest question for me now is.... Why can't I do that?

[Lambs09]

My jaw dropped when I realized what was happening - what a terrifying thing to do. He murdered innocent people (and even those sympathetic to his cause) when there was a chance to avoid bloodshed. Never mind that he betrayed my trust in a serious way. I half expected the demon to demand Anders' death in response to killing the Grand Cleric because my own sense of justice was outraged.

Mages are not treated fairly in this world, but there must be balance to keep their power in check. I was sad that there were so few dialogue options that let me articulate that opinion. In the end, I stayed with Anders in the hopes that later I will find a way to free him from Vengeance.

[Kim Shepard]

To answer the question about romancing other characters besides Anders - I will have Hawkes for all of the romances, and Fenris will be second. Sebastian will be last, if only because I'll have to wait until an Ultimate Edition like the one for DAO comes out to even have him in my party.

My mage FemHawke who's in a romance with Anders right now is actually a slightly different, more defined version of my Orlesian Warden who liked Anders and Justice in Awakening, who have very similar names (Kaia and Kaya). I don't know enough about Fenris or Merrill yet to pair them with anyone, but Isabella is perfect for the crazy rogue cousin of my evil Amell (he would be great friends with Anders too, and support the revolution completely). Kaya would want to slap Anders for blowing up the Chantry only because he didn't invite her.

nenosronhir wrote...

**Ambiguously spoilery response here**

I'm-- still not really clear (I think I'll just peg this on denial for now) on how Anders/Justice/Vengeance coexist(only because of the way Anders refers to Justice/Vengeance later on, though he's not exactly mentally stable, which could be the reason in itself). Events in DA2 where Justice(Vengeance) is involved directly indicate that he's definitely ...changed.

To answer your question about the Fade, however; Justice/Vengeance takes over (IE it's Anders with glowy eyes), either because they didn't want to (re)create a generic(or unique)-fade-spirit, or to further enforce that Anders and Justice are one being, mostly indistinguishable and inseparable.

Thanks for the answer. And I don't mind spoilers. Actually, I'm trying to find them. I bought the guide because I wanted spoilers, wanted to know everything before I played it out, and... sadly, the guide is very low on spoilers.

DragonRacer wrote...

But I got Isabela to comment on it (totally accidentally). I had also just gotten the "ship in a bottle" gift, so I was originally going into the Hanged Man to give that to her. This was literally just after having "special time" with Anders. And the first scene with her had her grilling my Lady Hawke for juicy info on our "threesome" and she kept poking fun at Hawke about getting Justice "involved" ("What? Afraid he might smite you? A little smiting can be fun. Actually, I could go for some smiting right about now.").

Well, now I know one conversation to watch for. xD My FemHawke approves of getting Justice involved.

[panamakira]

leggywillow wrote...

So, to try and distract myself from sadness...

Are there any good quests for Anders dialogue?  I've heard the Fenris thread mention that Fenris gets jealous dialogue if you bring him to meet Zevran, for example.  I tried that with Anders and flirted desperately, but nothing.

Also, has anyone rivalmanced Anders yet?

Me. I'm doing that right now. I'm in Act 2. Which is the reason I'm helpless since I think mostly everyone id doing frienship and I don't know if I'm making him snap faster or what?

Here. This is my small snip of it so far. Gosh this romance is full of angst.

[panamakira]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Batteries wrote...

I'm curious, did you kill him or let him go?

Here's your answer, in picture form! 

Oh no....my eyes. I closed it instantly. I'm still in Act 2 and I don't know what my Lady Hawke will do yet. Spare him or not? She is a bit pro-Templar, even though I'm not but which is why I'm having a great heartbreaking time questioning everything Anders belives in. Oh roleplaying~

[nenosronhir]

Actually, I think the most heartbreaking thing in the entire game for an Anders fangirl, for me even moreso than the Chantry explosion, was his Codex entry for Act 3. It basically says that he's getting more paranoid and bipolar, with episodes of depression and mania, and that he often said Hawke was the only thing keeping him sane.

The mental images that gave me of their relationship were just heartbreaking. I could picture him in his mania, prowling around the estate scribbling his manifesto and then getting angry and throwing it in the fireplace over and over. I could see Hawke trying to cope with his mood swings. It felt very real to me.

This. So much all of this. But the Codex entry really wasn't what drove it home - it was a banter with Varric that I caught.

There's a banter that Varric and Anders share after Bartrand leaves you in the Deep Roads that involves them thinking up new and inventive ways to kill him, and they're laughing/joking. Then in Act III, Varric initiates another similar banter except with Meredith as the unwilling participant, and Anders completely shuts him down; it ends with Varric saying "You're no fun anymore, Blondie." Just completely broke my heart to hear it.

Aaaand on a less(ish)depressing note, anyone started compiling party banter scripts for Anders yet? I blasted through the game my first time around, so now that I've got fraps set up I'm gonna endeavor to catch 'em.

[darkrose]

Lady Moof wrote...

I still support Anders and the complete liberation of mages, despite what our snarky, crazy mage did.

While I feel like a villain for supporting him though, because of the whole killing innocents thing, it's the Chantry and I do not and cannot support their oppression of mages. It's a revolution, not debate team.

But, that's just my opinion.

I don't support the Chantry at all, and Meredith? (Female mabari) crazy. And if the templars annul the Circle, that's going to include the 7-year-old apprentices. 

At the same time, Anders has just made things exponentially worse for every mage in Thedas outside the Imperium. His actions will be used to justify repression and an even more heavy-handed police state that he was trying to overturn, and it's highly likely that more mages will die than would have if you'd sided with the templars. Even for someone who normally is 100% behind freedom for mages, it's not an easy choice--and that's why it's good.

[Eradussa]

hey all, were any of you able to have Anders move in with your Hawke? If so, how did you go about doing that?

[Jean]

Eradussa wrote...

hey all, were any of you able to have Anders move in with your Hawke? If so, how did you go about doing that?

After the romance scene, he'll ask you.