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[fantasypisces]

After watching the last few conversations in the rivalmance it just makes me want an Anders DLC even more, one where we can separate him from Justice.

Just the whole line "The longer we go, the less of me there is..." it's really sad. Anders merged with Justice to save mages, but Justice became something else entirely, so who is now going to save Anders?

I agree with yukidama, he will probably be spending a year on the couch loathing himself.

[Miri1984]

@ Yuki and SgtElias I spent a good couple of days feeling terrible that I thought the action was completely justified, then I shook myself and said "It's a fantasy game, and you're not condoning terrorism!!". Truly, I abhor terrorism, because in this world there ARE other options, but in the DA world there just isn't. It's a violent, oppressive, disgusting and morally reprehensible world on the brink of war all the time, and the only thing that is truly understood by any of the factions is violence, so in my humble opinion, Anders' little fireball was in comparison with a lot of the actions in the DA 'verse, quite mild. I mean, he only killed at most a hundred innocents. That's chicken poo compared to the number of mages the Chantry has killed, maimed and lobotomised over the years. It's pittance compared to the number of warden recruits have died in the joining. It's nothing to how many died in the Blight, died under Orlesian occupation, died in Qunari conflicts, died in effing STREET brawls in the back streets of Denerim. Hell, my WARDEN killed more people than that in ONE WEEK.

(yes, I know comparing death tolls doesn't excuse any action, don't jump on me for that, but I'm roleplaying here).

It's shocking and triggery, considering the world we live in today, but truly it can't be compared to our world, because, well, it isn't.

[Annie_Dear]

I actually found a song that suits the Hawke/Anders romance: www.youtube.com/watch

Especially the "If I can't make you leave, how can I save you from me?" line reminds me a lot of Anders' dialgoue.

But that might just be me

[SgtElias]

fantasypisces wrote...

Just the whole line "The longer we go, the less of me there is..." it's really sad. Anders merged with Justice to save mages, but Justice became something else entirely, so who is now going to save Anders?

Oh my gods, I've never rivalry romanced Anders (I can't bring myself to ever side with the templars, ever. Ever), but this sounds so immensely sad and sexy. I've gotta go see if there's a clip on youtube, or something. Because as much as I've begged my husband to make a templar-sympathizing character just to see what a rivalry romance is like, I wonder if he ever will. I think he's come to royally hate Anders for usurping his place in my heart.

[Jean]

I did just re-play the ending to see what happens when you side with the templars and spared Anders since people have said he comes back near the end to fight you...
Siding with the templars just doesn't compute with me, not under the particular circumstances.
It was nice to see some extra Cullen content, that was a plus side.

Modifié par Batteries, 18 mars 2011 - 10:23 .

[DeaHamlet]

SgtElias wrote...

Miri1984 wrote...

So I don't think I'll be rivaling him. Not just because I can't stand the thought of sending mages to the circle. God no. My canon Hawke (whom I'm busily writing fic about) is a hardnosed **** witch who'll do just about anything to free the mages from the circle. It's lucky Anders got to the chantry first, because she would have fireballed it herself if he hadn't.

Miri, I'm really glad I read this because for awhile I was feeling like the only person in existance who decided to forgive him/semi condone his actions post end-game. I haven't perused this thread as often as I should (now beginning my third canon Hawke because the ending keeps bugging in different spots!), so maybe my "Anders did what he thought he had to do" stance is more common than I've come to believe. But it seemed like everyone else was ready to hoist him from the nearest tree except me, so it's nice to know I'm not entirely alone.

Has it been discussed what everyone thinks will happen to him in future installments? I desperately want the story to pick up where it left off, with my apostate Hawke and Anders, but that seems very unlikely.

You are definitely not alone in this.  The first playthrough I was a mage and it really really angered me the way things were just... hoped to get better somehow on their own.  And as goody-two-shoes as my first character was, I just realized eventually that nobody was going to step in to find a solution.  And a compromise with Meredith would just have continued the status quo in Kirkwall, not the status quo in Ferellden.  Huge difference.  Obviously the status quo was not working, it was antogonizing and stressing mages and that's the LAST thing one ought to do when trying to protect them from themselves.  So yes, I forgave Anders with no qualms. Pissed me off the O dude turned to blood magic in the end... what gives, man!  I'm gonna save your ass, no need to kill off the last mages with crap like that.  Killed him with no issues.  

Second playthrough I'm roleplaying a lot more even, sided with my friends a lot because I care about them, tried to be kind to many... but then I met Fenris and started to worry about what abuse mages can bring on the world.  But I still couldn't bring myself to tranquil mages unless they tried to KILL me.  And then I made the mistake of talking to the head of the chantry, didn't realize you can let her know of your discoveries of abuse.  She is so completely pointless and unhelpful and delusional... it made me sick.

It's a game, with a completely different warped and destructive world.  And I can't see how the situation would change as long as the chantry is happy to idly sit by as people abuse the position they were put in over others.  I wish there was a way to become viscount when the other one died and put Meredith in her place... but the game designers decided not to give me that choice.  And after three years unchecked... it was far too late for anything, especially a compromise with a crazy crazy lady.

Or maybe I'm just biased cause my warden was an elf and a mage with mage friends who helped the world (omg, even crazy Morrigan, her ass so hated my making her help people, lol)... In my warden's world she fought for their freedom and choices.  And she fought for their souls when neccessary.  She would have come in and decimated the place... mind you she'd have started with Meredith and the templars... but that chantry lady would have got her share of a crushing prison spell, if not completely removed the chantry from any power.  My mage warden believed mages can be educated and trusted, but when you give me no REAL compromise (I'm sorry, continuing to work with Meredith was not a compromise, it was "let's continue the harrassment and abuse")... my warden would have gone to some drastic measures.

As Anders says... "I will drown us in blood to keep you safe".  My warden would have done that for any friend, and Anders was her freaking favourite.  She also liked Justice, as uppity as he was, LOL.
So yes, my Hawke is going to be influenced by the type of world and expectation my warden has built.  I'm going to be influenced by the things I saw in this game and the previous.  And less by a comparison to the real world who is simply nothing like the Dragon Age world.

Afterall, I don't go around killing waves of bandits every night on my way home through the city. 

[jab19782010]

So I just watched the rivalry romance videos that someone put a link to on here. It really depresses me because in games like this I always play the goody goody and always have 100% friendship and loyalty from my companions. In DAO 2 I figured out after my first playthrough who to take on what missions and what not just to avoid rivalry points.

BUT...his rivalry romance he admits that merging with Justice was a bad idea and he seems to be TRYING to get some sort of control. But with my two friendship romances it's like I just added fuel to the fire by supporting his cause. It's really kind of depressing but I don't think I can bring myself to be a rival to him.

My question is to those who do the rivalry romance do you end up killing him or sparing him in the end?

Modifié par jab19782010, 18 mars 2011 - 10:47 .

[Galagraphia]

Miri1984 wrote...

I have to say, for all the rivalmance is sexy and gorgeous, I actually think it does more harm to Anders than good. Because he still goes ahead with the attack on the Chantry, nothing you say to him is going to change his mind, all that happens is that Justice starts disagreeing with him and he ends up closer to madness. Sure, this is all fine if you honestly think he's wrong, but I don't. So I'm happy enough on the friendship path. And he still recognises that a lot of what he's doing is crazy (that line about "another of his delusions" breaks my heart) but at least he isn't losing control of his body periodically.

So I don't think I'll be rivaling him. Not just because I can't stand the thought of sending mages to the circle. God no. My canon Hawke (whom I'm busily writing fic about) is a hardnosed **** witch who'll do just about anything to free the mages from the circle. It's lucky Anders got to the chantry first, because she would have fireballed it herself if he hadn't.

I agree with you, Miri. After reading about rivalry with him I decided: "I will NEVER do this to him". It looks like Hawke is driving him insane. And everything in the game hints on that he's better when he has Hawke's support. His friendship bonus says that he has better control, his codex entry says that he thinks that Hawke's love keeps him from losing his mind.
Besides, I think he's doing the right thing, even though I also can't completely disagree with Fenris, who's afraid Anders will turn Thedas into one big Tevinter. And the choice in the end of the game was really difficult, because after I sided with mages, they started to turn into monsters and I was close to tear out my hair in frustration: "What the hell are you doing, people? You're proving that Meredith was right!"
But I think most of us will agree that a criminal becomes a criminal only after he committed a crime, and must be judged and punished after his guilt is proved, not just because there's a possibility that he can do something bad. So, what templars in Kirkwall were doing was really unjust. Templars should probably be a mage-police, not mage-slavers. This change I support.

BTW, a cute and funny bit: Anders apparently has a few good memories about Fereldan Circle. When Meredith sent us to hunt 3 mages for her, one of them said that he never kissed a girl and Anders said that their Circle was much better, everyone kissed everybody (or something like that) and smiled, so I imagine they had a lot of fun there. Gregoir and Irving seem like loving parents in comparison to Meridith and Orsino.

[DeaHamlet]

Quick question... if you side with templars, can you take Anders with you and finish a romance? If you are rivals, can you finish romance siding with templars? If you are friends, does it matter which side you take?

[Jean]

DeaHamlet wrote...

Quick question... if you side with templars, can you take Anders with you and finish a romance? If you are rivals, can you finish romance siding with templars? If you are friends, does it matter which side you take?

He will not come with you if you side the templars. There's no way to keep him alive if you side with them. Even if you let him go. Right before you get to the area Orsino is with the rest of the mages, a cutscene will happen and he will confront you. You have to kill him.

Modifié par Batteries, 18 mars 2011 - 10:53 .

[jab19782010]

Galagraphia wrote...

Miri1984 wrote...

I have to say, for all the rivalmance is sexy and gorgeous, I actually think it does more harm to Anders than good. Because he still goes ahead with the attack on the Chantry, nothing you say to him is going to change his mind, all that happens is that Justice starts disagreeing with him and he ends up closer to madness. Sure, this is all fine if you honestly think he's wrong, but I don't. So I'm happy enough on the friendship path. And he still recognises that a lot of what he's doing is crazy (that line about "another of his delusions" breaks my heart) but at least he isn't losing control of his body periodically.

So I don't think I'll be rivaling him. Not just because I can't stand the thought of sending mages to the circle. God no. My canon Hawke (whom I'm busily writing fic about) is a hardnosed **** witch who'll do just about anything to free the mages from the circle. It's lucky Anders got to the chantry first, because she would have fireballed it herself if he hadn't.

I agree with you, Miri. After reading about rivalry with him I decided: "I will NEVER do this to him". It looks like Hawke is driving him insane. And everything in the game hints on that he's better when he has Hawke's support. His friendship bonus says that he has better control, his codex entry says that he thinks that Hawke's love keeps him from losing his mind.
Besides, I think he's doing the right thing, even though I also can't completely disagree with Fenris, who's afraid Anders will turn Thedas into one big Tevinter. And the choice in the end of the game was really difficult, because after I sided with mages, they started to turn into monsters and I was close to tear out my hair in frustration: "What the hell are you doing, people? You're proving that Meredith was right!"
But I think most of us will agree that a criminal becomes a criminal only after he committed a crime, and must be judged and punished after his guilt is proved, not just because there's a possibility that he can do something bad. So, what templars in Kirkwall were doing was really unjust. Templars should probably be a mage-police, not mage-slavers. This change I support.

BTW, a cute and funny bit: Anders apparently has a few good memories about Fereldan Circle. When Meredith sent us to hunt 3 mages for her, one of them said that he never kissed a girl and Anders said that their Circle was much better, everyone kissed everybody (or something like that) and smiled, so I imagine they had a lot of fun there. Gregoir and Irving seem like loving parents in comparison to Meridith and Orsino.

Good points guys...that makes me feel better about my friendship romances.

[snarkycleric]

Galagraphia wrote...

It looks like Hawke is driving him insane. And everything in the game hints on that he's better when he has Hawke's support. His friendship bonus says that he has better control, his codex entry says that he thinks that Hawke's love keeps him from losing his mind.
Besides, I think he's doing the right thing, even though I also can't completely disagree with Fenris, who's afraid Anders will turn Thedas into one big Tevinter. And the choice in the end of the game was really difficult, because after I sided with mages, they started to turn into monsters and I was close to tear out my hair in frustration: "What the hell are you doing, people? You're proving that Meredith was right!"

But I think most of us will agree that a criminal becomes a criminal only after he committed a crime, and must be judged and punished after his guilt is proved, not just because there's a possibility that he can do something bad. So, what templars in Kirkwall were doing was really unjust. Templars should probably be a mage-police, not mage-slavers. This change I support.

Yeah, after thinking about it I can't bring myself to rivalmance Anders either - watching Vengeance more or less completely take over breaks my heart. (He tells Merrill that she needs to atone for what she did after the Keeper dies; I think that should apply to him too and he needs to be in control for that, besides).

Also, yes to the mage-police not mage-slavers thing. It was pretty obvious things were better in the Fereldan Circle in that sense - in the mage quest Greagoir actually lets you try to rescue the mages and states at the end that he believes they're all right even when a traumatized Cullen believes the Circle still needs to be annulled... and now Cullen's like the one of the sanest templars around in Kirkwall. Sigh. =(

I laughed when Anders made that comment about "Everyone was kissing everyone", though. My first thought was "I bet you got around quite a bit, Anders."

[Miri1984]

@Gala and you have to remember, even though Fenris is terrified that Anders will turn the rest of Thedas into Tevinter, you only get FENRIS's view of Tevinter, which is necessarily biased. Ok, so they still have slavery, so we know it's not the best place on the planet, but DG has also said it's an empire in decline, constantly depleted by its war with the Qunari. The Magisters there are desperate and power hungry partially because they have to be, not just because they can be. And Fenris isn't the best witness - after all he's wrong about a LOT of things during the course of the game, including himself.

[YamiSnuffles]

I just couldn't do the rivalmance with Anders. I mean, I still got to call him on his extreme views in the friendship path but I also supported him and kept him a bit more sane. In the rival video right after he's planted the bomb he seems exultant even if he seems to change his mind later. He never seems happy about it in the friendship path. For a bit, perhaps, he seems like a burden has been lifted but that made sense with all the pressure I assume had been building with Vengeance.

I dunno. Just my opinion, but rival Anders feels more extreme to me than usual.

[catabuca]

@SgtElias (from a couple pages back)

No, you're definitely not alone in backing Anders. I'm actually having a tough time thinking about being able to play a character who will NOT support him in the future, because my own personal stance is that he did what was necessary. Yes, I'm a bad roleplayer

Of course, in doing what he did there were sacrifices -- of people's lives and of Anders' own self. I can't call what he did a selfish act because he has sacrificed himself in the process. Whether he actually lives or dies, he expects to die for his actions, but regardless he has still sacrificed himself to become something that was capable of those actions in the first place. He's sacrificed his own happiness, that of his friends and loved-ones (although that line where he says 'I was afraid you'd not want to help, or worse, I was afraid you would want to help' was wonderful -- it shows that despite his blind devotion to the cause, he still cares massively for Hawke and doesn't want to see him come to harm because of his actions). It's not a selfish act because as far as he's concerned, since he believes he'll die for what he did, he'll never see the benefits of a Thedas without mage discrimination. Everything he did stemmed from a profound belief in equality for all, not just for him.

I think his selflessness gets lost somewhat because of the innocents he killed and the way he went about it. But I do believe it was a selfless act, because of everything he has lost and will lose in the process. The figure of Justice/Vengeance naturally clouds matters. Justice is righteous, single-minded, unable to see the other side of the argument and reflect upon what could be lost in the fight. Those things aren't important to Justice. Anders' internal conflict in reconciling his belief in equality, the rage that comes from a thirst for vengeance for those wronged over the centuries (which, I think, is fuelled massively by Karl's situation, I think that was the final straw that let Justice gain more power over Anders), and his good heart that doesn't want to see innocents harmed (he's a selfless healer, after all), is incredibly powerful. That struggle in his head and heart encapsulates the shades of grey that paint the whole game. While Meredith is set up as a completely unsympathetic character, there are still instances where complete freedom for mages doesn't look like the best course of action; it's possible to see it from a centrist, moderate point of view for both sides of the argument.

An issue I have (and have seen others have) with the friendship/rivalry system is that it forces you to sometimes take a hard line down one path or the other, and doesn't reward compromise. That, however, is a wonderful foreshadowing of the end-game. For Anders, there can be no compromise. The Grand Cleric has shown she is incapable of providing leadership and direction in the matter. Any and all attempts at compromise between Meredith and Orsino have failed (and both of them are extremes of the types of people they represent -- the only difference being that we find out about Orsino so late in the game, but of course could make more of a case that he was driven to it). Confrontations between the Templars and mages have been coming to a head for some time, and the crack down on mages in Kirkwall began long before Meredith found the idol. The situation was at breaking point, all attempts at peaceful solutions had failed, and the time for compromise had long since passed. Anders brought things to a necessary crescendo, broke the deadlock, and forced the hand of all sides. It needed to happen, and of course it was unfortunate the way in which it happened (for the innocents in the Chantry (although my own view questions Elthina's innocence), and for Anders), but something had to give.

Anyway, all signs point to DA3 being set in or dealing with Orlais (King Al's chat about rising tensions with them; Leliana and Cassandra; and of course Sandal's going there ), but I really want to know what happens to Hawke (and in my case, Anders). After DAO I was content to imagine my Warden and his beau heading off into the sunset, and I didn't care if I ever saw him again. This is completely different though. Hawke's story isn't over ... that's what it feels like to me at least. Maybe it's because I've only completed one run so far, where he romanced Anders and they ran off together, but I really want to know how they overcame what Anders had become. I don't know how do-able any DLC or expansion would be to cover that though, since in so many games Anders is dead. Perhaps it'll never be followed up on. That will be a real shame. In this instance, it's not something I can satisfactorily leave to fanfic.

[jab19782010]

I agree catabuca, I want to know what happens to my Hawke and Anders. I hope it is something that is not left hanging and to our imaginations.

[jab19782010]

Wait...there are somethings left to my imagination with Anders...but I mean like officially I would like to find out what happens to them...LOL.

[DeaHamlet]

Batteries wrote...

DeaHamlet wrote...

Quick question... if you side with templars, can you take Anders with you and finish a romance? If you are rivals, can you finish romance siding with templars? If you are friends, does it matter which side you take?

He will not come with you if you side the templars. There's no way to keep him alive if you side with them. Even if you let him go. Right before you get to the area Orsino is with the rest of the mages, a cutscene will happen and he will confront you. You have to kill him.

What?  Even if he's full friends you can't choose to have him live?  That is so unfair!  I can have Fenris side with me if I'm with the mages and he's 100% friendship... ARG.
Now I'm going to dread finishing this playthrough.  I cannot kill Anders.  It was hard enough I fumbled through my first playthrough and had to kill Fenris.  I cannot do that to Anders.

ARG!

[Ryzaki]

funny how different I see the rivalry mance. Vengeance in my eyes is a demon. Or at the very least extremely demonic. The rivalry path is opening Anders' eyes to that fact while to me the Friendship path seems to be letting Vengeance completely take over while Anders stays oblivious. The two of them morph and mix and Anders never fights it. Both ways you lose the original Anders but at least on the rivalry path Anders realizes he's being lost and fights back bit by bit. Even if he loses the old him, the original him realizes what he's doing his plan, was wrong. His humanity is being overwhelmed by Vengeance.

To me the friendship version is kinder to him yes but it also never lets him fully open his eyes.  

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 mars 2011 - 11:42 .

[SurelyForth]

Ryzaki wrote...

funny how different I see the rivalry mance. Vengeance in my eyes is a demon. Or at the very least extremely demonic. The rivalry path is opening Anders' eyes to that fact while to me the Friendship path seems to be letting Vengeance completely take over while Anders stays oblivious. The two of them morph and mix and Anders never fights it. Both ways you lose the original Anders but at least on the rivalry path Anders realizes he's being lost and fights back bit by bit. Even if he loses.

I don't know, that sounds pretty horrible to me. In the friendship path, you can tell him he needs to keep control and that you'd hate to see him lost to the templars or Justice. Hawke never flat-out encourages Justice to take over, it's just that a by-product of supporting his cause is that Justice's desires are not challenged and Anders isn't as openly struggling with him. 

[SgtElias]

catabuca wrote...

Anyway, all signs point to DA3 being set in or dealing with Orlais (King Al's chat about rising tensions with them; Leliana and Cassandra; and of course Sandal's going there ), but I really want to know what happens to Hawke (and in my case, Anders). After DAO I was content to imagine my Warden and his beau heading off into the sunset, and I didn't care if I ever saw him again. This is completely different though. Hawke's story isn't over ... that's what it feels like to me at least. Maybe it's because I've only completed one run so far, where he romanced Anders and they ran off together, but I really want to know how they overcame what Anders had become. I don't know how do-able any DLC or expansion would be to cover that though, since in so many games Anders is dead. Perhaps it'll never be followed up on. That will be a real shame. In this instance, it's not something I can satisfactorily leave to fanfic.

I assumed the next game would take place in Orlais; it's the seat of the Divine, isn't it? I didn't have a King Alistair during my playthrough, but I did hear it mentioned before this. I've also been wondering what a possible expansion would be about. I'd love to have a "six months later . . . " sort of thing. I swear, just let me keep Anders. I realize he was already in (technically) two games and has probably outlived his usefulness as a character, and is therefore unlikely to return in anything other than a cameo, but I can dream, can't I?

This is such a cliffhanger. I'm so excited for what's to come, it's reached an entirely new level of pathetic.

[Ryzaki]

SurelyForth wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

funny how different I see the rivalry mance. Vengeance in my eyes is a demon. Or at the very least extremely demonic. The rivalry path is opening Anders' eyes to that fact while to me the Friendship path seems to be letting Vengeance completely take over while Anders stays oblivious. The two of them morph and mix and Anders never fights it. Both ways you lose the original Anders but at least on the rivalry path Anders realizes he's being lost and fights back bit by bit. Even if he loses.

I don't know, that sounds pretty horrible to me. In the friendship path, you can tell him he needs to keep control and that you'd hate to see him lost to the templars or Justice. Hawke never flat-out encourages Justice to take over, it's just that a by-product of supporting his cause is that Justice's desires are not challenged and Anders isn't as openly struggling with him. 

It's pretty horrible either way. It really seems to me the main difference is are you aware of being swallowed up? Or are you swallowed up while you think you're choosing your own path?

I personally rather would rather have my eyes open. 

Then again. Personal preference. I just don't see Rivalry as Anders losing himself being anything unique. He does it on both paths. One just makes the experience look less horrifying. 

And you can tell him you don't want to lose him to Vengeance on the rivalry path as well. Heck I'm pretty sure Rival Hawke calls Vengeance demonic and tells him not to throw his life away over the "cause". 

As a rival you get plenty of chances to call Anders out on his singlemindness and broadstrokes. You don't have to be all pro-chantry to be rivals with him. Just anti-all mages running around free. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 mars 2011 - 12:02 .

[catabuca]

SgtElias wrote...

I assumed the next game would take place in Orlais; it's the seat of the Divine, isn't it? I didn't have a King Alistair during my playthrough, but I did hear it mentioned before this. I've also been wondering what a possible expansion would be about. I'd love to have a "six months later . . . " sort of thing. I swear, just let me keep Anders. I realize he was already in (technically) two games and has probably outlived his usefulness as a character, and is therefore unlikely to return in anything other than a cameo, but I can dream, can't I?

This is such a cliffhanger. I'm so excited for what's to come, it's reached an entirely new level of pathetic.

Yeah, I've read a lot of dislike for the cliffhanger ending, but I thought it was excellent. Cassandra and Leliana at the end was such an ominous sign of what's yet to come. Talking about how Hawke and the Warden have both disappeared now, that it can't be a coincidence, the world has been plunged into war ... it's really great. I can't wait to see what happens next.

And yes, I'll freely admit my love of Anders clouds my judgement when it comes to wanting to see him again. More than anything, though, I want to know how (or if) he was able to deal with what happened. Chances for redemption are slim, considering how much Justice has taken over, but I still think that chance is there, somewhere. And that would be really interesting to explore.

I'm on my second run now, and I'm planning on romancing Fenris. However, it's really difficult, because I think Anders' story and involvement in the plot works so much better if Hawke has that conflict within him of loving Anders. Sure, a similar conflict can be there if they are friends, but it's not as poignant for me.

Still, looking forward to my sexy Emery voicemance ;-)

Edit: *hugs Ryz*

Modifié par catabuca, 18 mars 2011 - 12:01 .

[Galagraphia]

Ryzaki wrote...

funny how different I see the rivalry mance. Vengeance in my eyes is a demon. Or at the very least extremely demonic. The rivalry path is opening Anders' eyes to that fact while to me the Friendship path seems to be letting Vengeance completely take over while Anders stays oblivious. The two of them morph and mix and Anders never fights it. Both ways you lose the original Anders but at least on the rivalry path Anders realizes he's being lost and fights back bit by bit. Even if he loses the old him, the original him realizes what he's doing his plan, was wrong. His humanity is being overwhelmed by Vengeance.

To me the friendship version is kinder to him yes but it also never lets him fully open his eyes.  

I don't see the point of fighting with no hope to win, to be honest. It's obvious that this internal conflict breaks him. But that's my Hawke: she didn't know Anders before he let Justice in, so I imagine that she loves the current possessed Anders with all his problems. To her he's one being. Who goes crazy sometimes. And her support helps to lower the frequency of such seizures, which I consider as a good dinamics  
I think merging with Justice further may be a good thing. When the border between them will disappear there will be also no internal conflict. Anders will become something like Flemeth, if we assume that she was once an abomination as a legend says. And Flemeth seems a pretty solid personality.

[Ryzaki]

Galagraphia wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

funny how different I see the rivalry mance. Vengeance in my eyes is a demon. Or at the very least extremely demonic. The rivalry path is opening Anders' eyes to that fact while to me the Friendship path seems to be letting Vengeance completely take over while Anders stays oblivious. The two of them morph and mix and Anders never fights it. Both ways you lose the original Anders but at least on the rivalry path Anders realizes he's being lost and fights back bit by bit. Even if he loses the old him, the original him realizes what he's doing his plan, was wrong. His humanity is being overwhelmed by Vengeance.

To me the friendship version is kinder to him yes but it also never lets him fully open his eyes.  

I don't see the point of fighting with no hope to win, to be honest. It's obvious that this internal conflict breaks him. But that's my Hawke: she didn't know Anders before he let Justice in, so I imagine that she loves the current possessed Anders with all his problems. To her he's one being. Who goes crazy sometimes. And her support helps to lower the frequency of such seizures, which I consider as a good dinamics  
I think merging with Justice further may be a good thing. When the border between them will disappear there will be also no internal conflict. Anders will become something like Flemeth, if we assume that she was once an abomination as a legend says. And Flemeth seems a pretty solid personality.

Except of course there's always hope that he can win. Something not being likely doesn't make it impossible. He is losing at the current moment yes but he hasn't completely lost. 

As for breaking him I saw a very tormented young man. 

Flemeth isn't an abomination. I don't know what she is but it's not an abomination. Morrigan, Fenris and many others seem to be clear on that. 

As for merging with Justice. Merging with an inhumane Ideal with no concept of humanity isn't a good thing for a person. Justice feels no pity, no remorse, as Isabela said Justice would just lead to a destructive cycle in which no one would win. 

You can't lead a revolution on the concept of Justice. It would never end. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 18 mars 2011 - 12:06 .