57020 réponses à ce sujet

[catabuca]

Nivilant wrote...

catabuca wrote...

@Nivilant -- the long posts are the best ;-)

catabuca: proud member of the wall-of-text club.

The irony of this does not escape me.

haha, I am capable of brevity when the situation requires it. But my middle name is Verbose (head back a page or so for my epic wall-of-text on what I think of the Anders situation) ;-)

[Ryzaki]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

The way I see it, Friendship path Anders doesn't question why he wants this much, because he actually does agree with Justice to some extent (after all, he says loving Hawke is one of the few things they disagree on). He wants a mage revolution and Justice is helping him get that. Whereas he questions it more in the Rivalry path because Hawke is changing his mind on what he wants. Hawke convinces him that perhaps revolution isn't the way or, at least, this isn't the way to do it. Thus, when he starts to want something else, he starts to get into conflict with Justice.

So, again, it just comes down to what you/Hawke feel about the revolution. If you agree, support him. If not, I agree that it is entirely within rights to get him to see that there is another way. I still think this causes more of an inner divide just because Justice is very single minded. I don't think that is a bad thing, if you feel strongly that Anders is doing the wrong thing.

And yes I see your POV much more clearly now.  It's not necessarily a bad thing to help him with the mage freedom thing either. 

I willalways prefer telling him to chillax though.

[Nivilant]

Ryzaki wrote...

Galagraphia wrote...

@Ryzaki, I think their merging is more complicated. I can see that they are becoming one personality. Mostly because I was playing Awakening just before I got DAII and when I started DAII I realised that Anders actually talks like Justice did in Awakening. But at the same time they exist in two dimensions: Thedas and Fade. Irving and Morrigan in Origins said that Connor didn't have a demon inside of him, demon was controlling him from the Fade. Justice in DAII, when you go to Fade, says that he hasn't been in the Fade for quite some time and in Awakening he said that he missed the Fade too. Which means he exists in physical world. Still, when Justice assumes direct control, he sort of opens a portal to the Fade, according to Karl. And Merrill says that Fade is like a different kingdom. So, maybe there is a Fade part of Justice, like body in this world, that part remains in the Fade but can be brought to this world through a tear Justice creates when Anders' eyes glow. The part of the Fade Karl felt. Well then, if they will continue merging, Justice may eventually lose that connection with his Fade "body" and Anders' blackouts will stop. Justice will completely become a part of Anders.

Gosh, me and my crazy theories.

 

Sounds like a pretty cool theory though. 

I do miss the old Justice though. 

I like this explanation actually. I fail at connecting dots like that so it's always nice when someone posts something that makes me go '...oh yeah!'

I miss old Justice. He was so hilariously serious. Though the Awakening party banter with him does indeed now blow my mind. Along with hearing Greg as Anders.

Actually, I think I'm starting to see Adam as Anders now, and seeing Greg purely as Cullen. Props to the VAs.

[YamiSnuffles]

The game makes it very confusing to figure out what exactly is going on with Anders and Justice but I agree that it is something different than what was going on with Connor. If it was just like the Connor situation, Justice could just "release control" of Anders. Or, considering Justice has gotten a bit demonic and maybe doesn't want to release control anymore, it would still be a simple matter of going into the Fade and booting him out like you did with Connor. The merger between Justice and Anders seems more complex.

EDIT:

Ryzaki wrote...

And yes I see your POV much more clearly now.  It's not necessarily a bad thing to help him with the mage freedom thing either. 

I willalways prefer telling him to chillax though.

Yeah, I see where you're coming from better too now. And I whole heartedly agree that it would be nice for him to chillax. Justice should at least let the poor guy get drunk.

Modifié par YamiSnuffles, 18 mars 2011 - 01:32 .

[catabuca]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

The game makes it very confusing to figure out what exactly is going on with Anders and Justice but I agree that it is something different than what was going on with Connor. If it was just like the Connor situation, Justice could just "release control" of Anders. Or, considering Justice has gotten a bit demonic and maybe doesn't want to release control anymore, it would still be a simple matter of going into the Fade and booting him out like you did with Connor. The merger between Justice and Anders seems more complex.

Yes. I remember in Awakening when Justice first comes out of the Fade he's confused because he shouldn't be there and wasn't sure how it happened. It seems sufficiently different enough from 'normal' possessions to warrent comment throughout the game, particularly when Nate and Justice talk about Justice needing another host at some point. It seems Justice was stuck here, not able to return to the Fade, unlike other possessions/abominations where the demon retains that link with the Fade.

It's very confusing though. Marethari's comments about having to kill the human/elf host seem at odds with what we know happened with Connor, where it was possible to go into the Fade to remove the demon (and I think we can take the way that was dealt with in Origins with authority, since what happened to Connor was one of the things that is referenced in your imported game synopsis ... but maybe that's just the way I'm interpreting it). But if there is no link to the Fade in the first place, and Justice only now exists in the real world of Thedas, that removal of him from Anders would have to presumably happen in the real world too, and the implications for Anders' body and mind are ... troubling. And besides, as we know, although there is still a great deal of conflict between Justice and Anders in his head, there are elements of their beings that have completely merged now ...

I think it's gone too far to ever even attempt to separate them. The only 'happy' solution would be if the anger could be calmed in Justice, now that their plan to incite revolution has succeeded. Only then I suspect would Anders and Justice be able to fully 'merge' (if, in fact, they wanted to) and create a single being again.

[Heidenreich]

The thing with Connor was, the Demon was in the fade, with only a portion of control. With Uldred, the Demon had fully taken over..

With Justice, he was unwillingly forced through the fade with no way of getting back. He essentially is part of our world now. You see this when you go into the fade. He's still Anders, he's just.. not Anders. He mentions not having been able to return to the fade before that moment, and being glad to see it, even if its just temporarily.

I suspect, cases like Anders and Wynne are the exception to the rule, because most fade "Spirits" dont WANT to go to the mortal world. Thus, you always know more about demon posession.

Modifié par Heidenreich, 18 mars 2011 - 01:52 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

Yeah, I see where you're coming from better too now. And I whole heartedly agree that it would be nice for him to chillax. Justice should at least let the poor guy get drunk.

Speaking of which, Varric says in Act 3 that he buys Anders drinks.  So he does drink? 

[Galagraphia]

He drinks, but not enough to lose consciousness. I think he misses that part.

[Celestria129]

RinjiRenee wrote...

YamiSnuffles wrote...

Yeah, I see where you're coming from better too now. And I whole heartedly agree that it would be nice for him to chillax. Justice should at least let the poor guy get drunk.

Speaking of which, Varric says in Act 3 that he buys Anders drinks.  So he does drink? 

He most likely does, just can't get "Drunk" as he says Justice won't allow he too. He can drink as must as he wants with out the hangover.......note to hawke never challange Anders to a Drinking contest

Edit: wow i can't spell this morning

Modifié par Celestria129, 18 mars 2011 - 02:34 .

[YamiSnuffles]

All of this serious discussion is in need of some Ser Pounce. Thus,since I was too lazy to draw something at the moment, I Googled and:



So cute. I will continue to wish for kitten DLC. Kittens will solve all problems. All of them!

[Nivilant]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

All of this serious discussion is in need of some Ser Pounce. Thus,since I was too lazy to draw something at the moment, I Googled and:

*cute picture snip*

So cute. I will continue to wish for kitten DLC. Kittens will solve all problems. All of them!

I love how this thread will be all 'chantry! Bomb! Murderknife! Betrayal! DAMMIT JUSTICE!'

...and then instantly gear change to Pounce and the merits of shirtless scenes. I love you guys.

Kitten DLC must be had. About to replay Awakening with male Cousland warrior, who is a bit mental (in the good way) and I can't wait to get Pounce.

Sad, I know.

[Galagraphia]

I imagine that:
Meridith: I INVOKE THE RIGHT OF ANNULMENT!!!
Orsino: We're doomed!
Anders: Time to pick sides, Hawke!
Hawke: Um, I dunno. Oh, look, kittens! Here, Anders, have a tabby. Orsino, do you like the white one? And the black one is for Meridith... I'm now torn between another tabby and the grey one. So cute!
Meridith&Orsino&Anders: Awwwwww.

[Sialater]

Miri1984 wrote...

@ Yuki and SgtElias I spent a good couple of days feeling terrible that I thought the action was completely justified, then I shook myself and said "It's a fantasy game, and you're not condoning terrorism!!". Truly, I abhor terrorism, because in this world there ARE other options, but in the DA world there just isn't. It's a violent, oppressive, disgusting and morally reprehensible world on the brink of war all the time, and the only thing that is truly understood by any of the factions is violence, so in my humble opinion, Anders' little fireball was in comparison with a lot of the actions in the DA 'verse, quite mild. I mean, he only killed at most a hundred innocents. That's chicken poo compared to the number of mages the Chantry has killed, maimed and lobotomised over the years. It's pittance compared to the number of warden recruits have died in the joining. It's nothing to how many died in the Blight, died under Orlesian occupation, died in Qunari conflicts, died in effing STREET brawls in the back streets of Denerim. Hell, my WARDEN killed more people than that in ONE WEEK.

(yes, I know comparing death tolls doesn't excuse any action, don't jump on me for that, but I'm roleplaying here).

It's shocking and triggery, considering the world we live in today, but truly it can't be compared to our world, because, well, it isn't.

I'm catching up from over night, but I just had to agree with you.

[Nivilant]

Galagraphia wrote...

I imagine that:
Meridith: I INVOKE THE RIGHT OF ANNULMENT!!!
Orsino: We're doomed!
Anders: Time to pick sides, Hawke!
Hawke: Um, I dunno. Oh, look, kittens! Here, Anders, have a tabby. Orsino, do you like the white one? And the black one is for Meridith... I'm now torn between another tabby and the grey one. So cute!
Meridith&Orsino&Anders: Awwwwww.

Clearly as lovers Anders and Hawke much have matching cats. The tabby it is.

The grey one's for the Warden.

[VampOrchid]

panamakira wrote...

leggywillow wrote...

panamakira wrote...

@leggywillow

Rival-mancing Anders is tricky. Remember he hates blood mages and supports you helping apostates. Take a pro-Templar stance. Like turning apostates in to the circle or arguing with him about mages freedom will give you lots of rivalry points. Side with Meredith that kind of thing or help Merrill out in her quests.....stuff like that pisses him off....

Beware of the angst in it though. He looks way more broken later on in the game since he's much more conflicted with his ideas vs a friendship romance.

Uuuugggh... this is gonna be hard.  I think I'm going to hate Charlotte Hawke for upsetting my woobie so much.    I need to do a pro-templar playthrough anyway, but I'm having a hard time seeing how that kind of rival-mance could really work.

I was thinking Charlotte would be more in favor of keeping her head down, maintaining the status quo, etc.  I could see the rivalmance working if she was simply apathetic or an unyielding "lawful good" type, but I don't know how well I can play that out in-game.

Actually although it breaks my heart, rival-mancing is the closest you get to make him change his mind about stuff. At least how unstable his desicion making is with Justice inside. When the scene with the girl happens and Justice almost kills her, you can be "I told you so" and he's like kinda of like "Oh I'm starting to see..." blah blah

Act 3 though I realized if Justice hadn't been in him for so long we could've changed his mind or tame his hatred a bit more. I forget what happens but you're talking to him about being in control etc.....and he's starting to agree with you but then Justice comes out and totally start telling you off, *This is where I absolutely stop liking Justice because he realizes how much power Hawke can have over Anders specially when you seem to convincing him about loosing controls, etc*

And then he tells you about the blackouts and how you're right but it never goes anywhere. I was just like, "Dammit Justice" just when I seem to be getting close to him he comes out and interferes!

*sigh* I find the rival-mance more interesting though~

I'm starting my second playthrough, as a blood mage, that will rivalmance Anders. It's going to be hard to make him all poutty, but, argh....

This is why I keep hoping for an expansion that involves our anders, he wants justice out!

We should totally make a stamp or something that says, I support kicking Justice out!!

[VampOrchid]

catabuca wrote...

@SgtElias (from a couple pages back)

No, you're definitely not alone in backing Anders. I'm actually having a tough time thinking about being able to play a character who will NOT support him in the future, because my own personal stance is that he did what was necessary. Yes, I'm a bad roleplayer

Of course, in doing what he did there were sacrifices -- of people's lives and of Anders' own self. I can't call what he did a selfish act because he has sacrificed himself in the process. Whether he actually lives or dies, he expects to die for his actions, but regardless he has still sacrificed himself to become something that was capable of those actions in the first place. He's sacrificed his own happiness, that of his friends and loved-ones (although that line where he says 'I was afraid you'd not want to help, or worse, I was afraid you would want to help' was wonderful -- it shows that despite his blind devotion to the cause, he still cares massively for Hawke and doesn't want to see him come to harm because of his actions). It's not a selfish act because as far as he's concerned, since he believes he'll die for what he did, he'll never see the benefits of a Thedas without mage discrimination. Everything he did stemmed from a profound belief in equality for all, not just for him.

I think his selflessness gets lost somewhat because of the innocents he killed and the way he went about it. But I do believe it was a selfless act, because of everything he has lost and will lose in the process. The figure of Justice/Vengeance naturally clouds matters. Justice is righteous, single-minded, unable to see the other side of the argument and reflect upon what could be lost in the fight. Those things aren't important to Justice. Anders' internal conflict in reconciling his belief in equality, the rage that comes from a thirst for vengeance for those wronged over the centuries (which, I think, is fuelled massively by Karl's situation, I think that was the final straw that let Justice gain more power over Anders), and his good heart that doesn't want to see innocents harmed (he's a selfless healer, after all), is incredibly powerful. That struggle in his head and heart encapsulates the shades of grey that paint the whole game. While Meredith is set up as a completely unsympathetic character, there are still instances where complete freedom for mages doesn't look like the best course of action; it's possible to see it from a centrist, moderate point of view for both sides of the argument.

An issue I have (and have seen others have) with the friendship/rivalry system is that it forces you to sometimes take a hard line down one path or the other, and doesn't reward compromise. That, however, is a wonderful foreshadowing of the end-game. For Anders, there can be no compromise. The Grand Cleric has shown she is incapable of providing leadership and direction in the matter. Any and all attempts at compromise between Meredith and Orsino have failed (and both of them are extremes of the types of people they represent -- the only difference being that we find out about Orsino so late in the game, but of course could make more of a case that he was driven to it). Confrontations between the Templars and mages have been coming to a head for some time, and the crack down on mages in Kirkwall began long before Meredith found the idol. The situation was at breaking point, all attempts at peaceful solutions had failed, and the time for compromise had long since passed. Anders brought things to a necessary crescendo, broke the deadlock, and forced the hand of all sides. It needed to happen, and of course it was unfortunate the way in which it happened (for the innocents in the Chantry (although my own view questions Elthina's innocence), and for Anders), but something had to give.

Anyway, all signs point to DA3 being set in or dealing with Orlais (King Al's chat about rising tensions with them; Leliana and Cassandra; and of course Sandal's going there ), but I really want to know what happens to Hawke (and in my case, Anders). After DAO I was content to imagine my Warden and his beau heading off into the sunset, and I didn't care if I ever saw him again. This is completely different though. Hawke's story isn't over ... that's what it feels like to me at least. Maybe it's because I've only completed one run so far, where he romanced Anders and they ran off together, but I really want to know how they overcame what Anders had become. I don't know how do-able any DLC or expansion would be to cover that though, since in so many games Anders is dead. Perhaps it'll never be followed up on. That will be a real shame. In this instance, it's not something I can satisfactorily leave to fanfic.

This all the way!

[cmessaz]

*peeks in, sees that she is not alone in the Anders squee* Yay! Omg I feel like Loghain all over again...You like Anders you terrorist supporting crazy person! >:{ I'm so glad there are still those that like him. Everywhere I go I get the "you don't kill him?" and "He's a terrorist" crap...it is getting so old.

[Nivilant]

cmessaz wrote...

*peeks in, sees that she is not alone in the Anders squee* Yay! Omg I feel like Loghain all over again...You like Anders you terrorist supporting crazy person! >:{ I'm so glad there are still those that like him. Everywhere I go I get the "you don't kill him?" and "He's a terrorist" crap...it is getting so old.

This. Dear lord this. What makes it worse is I'm really easy to rile up after I've heard the same thing about fifty times. I feel like people making those statements completely miss the point. It's supposed to be grey. Each side has its rights and wrongs. Loghain and Anders are the same way. I actually felt that Loghain was done well. Realistically, the Warden would know nothing of his reasoning unless they spare him, so consequently we don't either. It's only if you make the effort that you understand. (Or read the Stolen Throne, but I hadn't done that when I spared him for my main playthrough. Yep. No side-playthrough for me.)

With Anders it's a bit different. We know him, or we felt we did in Awakening. I still get the feeling if Awakening had been more in-depth this transformation wouldn't be quite so drastic. Heck, I can see the beginnings of it even back then.

Anyway, yes, much love for our still very snarky mage. I know I'll be sticking with him come what may.

[VampOrchid]

cmessaz wrote...
 Everywhere I go I get the "you don't kill him?" and "He's a terrorist" crap...it is getting so old.

I really don't get all the Anders hate...

[crotti]

cmessaz wrote...

*peeks in, sees that she is not alone in the Anders squee* Yay! Omg I feel like Loghain all over again...You like Anders you terrorist supporting crazy person! >:{ I'm so glad there are still those that like him. Everywhere I go I get the "you don't kill him?" and "He's a terrorist" crap...it is getting so old.

Yep.  

It's stupid to say that Anders is a terrorist. Heck, you could set a city on fire!

Modifié par crotti, 18 mars 2011 - 03:04 .

[cmessaz]

Yeah and see I don't mind if people don't like him..but they take it too far. Saying I support terrorism? Seriously? You know, complacency does not mean innocence. I saw how KC Meridith obeyed the Grand Cleric in the beginning of act 3 after the public fight. She should have stepped in! Remember Alistair saying that the chantry keeps a close reign on it's templars? Why did she NOT stop Merideth? I was shocked the first time I saw what Anders did, but I will NEVER kill him. And now that I've replayed I kinda support him..though I wish he wouldn't lie to me!

[YamiSnuffles]

crotti wrote...

cmessaz wrote...

*peeks in, sees that she is not alone in the Anders squee* Yay! Omg I feel like Loghain all over again...You like Anders you terrorist supporting crazy person! >:{ I'm so glad there are still those that like him. Everywhere I go I get the "you don't kill him?" and "He's a terrorist" crap...it is getting so old.

Yep.  

It's stupid to say that Anders is a terrorist. Heck, you could set a city on fire!

This. The Warden could arguably do lots of terrible things to accomplish a goal. Gragh. I dunno. I understand why people might dislike him and I understand why people disagree with things he does but... it's not nearly so black and white as people make it out to be. And I certainly think it's dumb when people think supporting Anders=supporting terrorism. >_<

Modifié par YamiSnuffles, 18 mars 2011 - 03:14 .

[Nivilant]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

crotti wrote...

cmessaz wrote...

*peeks in, sees that she is not alone in the Anders squee* Yay! Omg I feel like Loghain all over again...You like Anders you terrorist supporting crazy person! >:{ I'm so glad there are still those that like him. Everywhere I go I get the "you don't kill him?" and "He's a terrorist" crap...it is getting so old.

Yep.  

It's stupid to say that Anders is a terrorist. Heck, you could set a city on fire!

This. The Warden could do lots of terrible things. Gragh. I dunno. I understand why people might dislike him and I understand why people disagree with things he does but... it's not nearly so black and white as people make it out to be. And I certainly think it's dumb when people think supporting Anders=supporting terrorism. >_<

Pff. Tell me about it! My main playthrough for Origins is a female dalish warrior called Evrae. She started out badly by killing the 'shems' in the origin story, then proceeded to sabotage a hell of a lot of nice plans for peace and kicking Alistair off the throne (was RPing as being incredibly bitter at the world due to Tamlen dying. I get really into my RPing). Yet she's still a hero. It's telling that her best buddies were Sten, Loghain, Morrigan, Nathaniel and Anders. Justice didn't like her much. 

Fortunately, she chilled out a bit by Awakening. Still, seeing her legacy in all its questionable glory in DA2 made me laugh.

I seem to remember having many similar conversations on the ME boards, and indeed the Origins boards about things like sparing the Architect on the off-chance it does some good. To that I say what I have always said. I may get very involved in the story, but I know it's a game. From a narrative standpoint, seeing what the Architect could get up to is so much more enticing a story than outright smiting him. Likewise, even if I wasn't terribly attached to Anders, letting him live and seeing the results would be so much more interesting than stabbing him in the back.

Also, stabbing him in the back? Really? Is that supposed to be symbolic? Especially if he was the LI. I mean geez. Evidently Hawke couldn't look him in the eye and do it.

[cmessaz]

Nivilant wrote...
It's only if you make the effort that you understand.

And from what I've seen, it's another case of them not trying to see or make effort. They either read a spoiler for DA2 before release and decided Anders was an ass from that, or romanced Fenris the first playthrough and didn't get close to Anders, which I suppose could make you dislike him. I think I'm kinda this way with Fenris...his mage stuff rubbed me the wrong way. But I really do need to romance him before I give my honest opinion. IF I can ever tear myself away from Anders and his hot kiss...

[nenosronhir]

Nivilant wrote...

cmessaz wrote...

*peeks in, sees that she is not alone in the Anders squee* Yay! Omg I feel like Loghain all over again...You like Anders you terrorist supporting crazy person! >:{ I'm so glad there are still those that like him. Everywhere I go I get the "you don't kill him?" and "He's a terrorist" crap...it is getting so old.

This. Dear lord this. What makes it worse is I'm really easy to rile up after I've heard the same thing about fifty times. I feel like people making those statements completely miss the point. It's supposed to be grey. Each side has its rights and wrongs. Loghain and Anders are the same way. I actually felt that Loghain was done well. Realistically, the Warden would know nothing of his reasoning unless they spare him, so consequently we don't either. It's only if you make the effort that you understand. (Or read the Stolen Throne, but I hadn't done that when I spared him for my main playthrough. Yep. No side-playthrough for me.)

With Anders it's a bit different. We know him, or we felt we did in Awakening. I still get the feeling if Awakening had been more in-depth this transformation wouldn't be quite so drastic. Heck, I can see the beginnings of it even back then.

Anyway, yes, much love for our still very snarky mage. I know I'll be sticking with him come what may.

I understand everyone calling him a terrorist - because by definition, that's what he is. In our post 9/11 society, however, the word carries more subtext and fierce antagonizm than is strictly necessary. Seeing the word thrown about like it is irks me incessantly, because it's not being used to invoke its actual meaning, insofar a purely nefarious "THIS GUY EXPLODED INNOCENTS COMPLETELY WITHOUT RATIONAL CAUSE OMG HE'S A BAD GUY STOP THINKING ABOUT WHAT HE DID AND JUST SEE HIS TERRORISM."

RE bolded text - I'm replaying Awakening (because I never finished it for my "canon" Warden and I'm not happy with the save file I imported into my first playthrough of DA2) and yeah, the pieces of what Anders becomes in DA2 are definitely there. Even in those first few conversations with Rylock and concerning the statue of Andraste, his hatred is evident - if thinly veiled by his need to keep surviving.

It's really no wonder he ends up where he does ;-;

Modifié par nenosronhir, 18 mars 2011 - 03:30 .