57006 réponses à ce sujet

[Eradussa]

ah much thanks sir/madam.

[nenosronhir]

At the same time, Anders has just made things exponentially worse for every mage in Thedas outside the Imperium. His actions will be used to justify repression and an even more heavy-handed police state that he was trying to overturn, and it's highly likely that more mages will die than would have if you'd sided with the templars. Even for someone who normally is 100% behind freedom for mages, it's not an easy choice--and that's why it's good.

No. I actually don't think Anders' actions make it worse for mages. Those that refused Chantry rule were already hunted -and killed- if they opposed the Templars. Those that did not were imprisoned, lobotomized, isolated, encouraged to hate themselves and everything they are because magic is a sin in the Maker's gaze. Life in a Circle is not living; the Circle mages that think so don't know any other life. They are feared and rejected by society because the Chantry deems them dangerous creatures - not people.

Anders removes the Chantry and the Grand Cleric with it because she and the Chantry are the only chance at a peaceful compromise; this is the only way the mages can gain the upper hand. The right to command the Templars lies with the Chantry. The people look to the Chantry for guidance. Remove that element, force everyone to stop and think for themselves, and yes, you get chaos, bloodshed - but therein lies the shift in the balance.

The peaceful compromise the Grand Cleric would have put forth would only have seen the mages return to subjugation. Even if, IF her decision favoured the mages, the power of that choice would have been in the hands of the Grand Cleric, and the Chantry. It would not have been the mages deciding to take freedom - it would have been an allowance from the Chantry, enabling it to maintain control.

Um. *shifty eyes* So, too late for a "IMO/YMMV" disclaimer? >A<;

Modifié par nenosronhir, 11 mars 2011 - 10:03 .

[Sable Rhapsody]

nenosronhir wrote...

Anders removes the Chantry and the Grand Cleric with it because she and the Chantry are the only chance at a peaceful compromise; this is the only way the mages can gain the upper hand.

This.

Anders is a revolutionary.  He starts out as one from the beginning  And in a world where mages have been systematically controlled and sometimes oppressed for hundreds of years, there is no peaceful way to bring about a revolution.  

Now that I've finished the game...I'm astonished at how much punch the characters have despite having less word budget than DA:O.  Every single one of them left their mark on my mage Hawke, and she left her mark on them.  Anders, however, impacted her the most.

I went into the game intending to take Kirkwall's throne for my Hawke.  I went in with an ambitious, ruthless, manipulative villain protagonist, willing to do anything that worked to get Dumar's crown--down to selling out to the templars.  Anders changed all that.  My Hawke was like Morrigan--little sympathy for Circle mages, until she met a man who'd wrested himself from the Circle and assumed terrible burdens for a cause.  She admired his courage (and Justice's ruthlessness).  He reached the little piece of her that still believed in change for the greater good, no matter the cost.  He gave her a cause worth dying for.

Anders took my tyrant, and turned her into a revolutionary   Funny how these things work out.  I don't think I've ever had a character derail my PC so spectacularly or unexpectedly.

[magicwins]

Let me just say that I liked the Grand Cleric at least half as much as Sebastian did and would love to kill Anders right now. Oh, along with Isabela. Hate both of them.

[Sialater]

Haven't finished DA2 yet, just reserving my spot in Anders' lap, er, fandom!

[NKKKK]

I'm starting to get Anders thought process now, but I still want a punch him option.

[PickledGear]

I wonder if Anders thought about the long run of his action. Yes it may inspire rebellion and it may free all mages but in reverse it may reform all of Thedas into either
1. Shackling their mages as the Qunari do with Saarebas along with the control rod like items.
2. Kill all who are mages no matter what.

Years down the road in Dragon age all mages in all of Thedas could be wiped out because of Anders actions. Which is the exact opposite of what he wanted. We may think Mages are powerful (the reason why they are in the circle and such) but in the war I will have to think that the Templars will have a better Kill/Death ratio to the mages.

We even see that when the Templars storm the mages. When 2 templars attack a female mage she is still but a student and throws fire at the templar who deflects it with his shield. The templar is then aided by another who runs by the mage and stabs her in the back.

Templars are very very well equipped to fight mages. Especially with their Lyrium enhanced abilities they use to mute all spells. (Which we see what a Super UBER Templar would be with Meredith and the red lyrium artifact.

Templars are amazing fighters and almost all are well trained. While most mages are still learning with their abilities. I can only see the qunari facepalming at mainland Thedas right now.

[Rinji the Bearded]

SPARTAN 089-Gary wrote...

I wonder if Anders thought about the long run of his action. Yes it may inspire rebellion and it may free all mages but in reverse it may reform all of Thedas into either
1. Shackling their mages as the Qunari do with Saarebas along with the control rod like items.
2. Kill all who are mages no matter what.

Years down the road in Dragon age all mages in all of Thedas could be wiped out because of Anders actions. Which is the exact opposite of what he wanted. We may think Mages are powerful (the reason why they are in the circle and such) but in the war I will have to think that the Templars will have a better Kill/Death ratio to the mages.

We even see that when the Templars storm the mages. When 2 templars attack a female mage she is still but a student and throws fire at the templar who deflects it with his shield. The templar is then aided by another who runs by the mage and stabs her in the back.

Templars are very very well equipped to fight mages. Especially with their Lyrium enhanced abilities they use to mute all spells. (Which we see what a Super UBER Templar would be with Meredith and the red lyrium artifact.

Templars are amazing fighters and almost all are well trained. While most mages are still learning with their abilities. I can only see the qunari facepalming at mainland Thedas right now.

He said it himself.  A quick death now or a slow one later.  They either all die fighting and bring the inevitable quicker, or they remain apathetic, and suffer until they die anyway. Then we see Orsino later on, asking why the Templars don't just drown them as infants.  Anders would rather die fighting than never fight at all.  I think he knows that they could lose, but he wants to fight to keep that from happening.

As simple as the Qunari seem to make things, they even have defectors in their own ranks... conflict always seems to be inevitable.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 11 mars 2011 - 03:33 .

[panamakira]

I don't think what Anders did or does is right. There had to be a better way to have a mage "revolution". The way I see it you guys can't give him credit for what he did, since everything went downhill the moment he became possessed by a demon. Yes, Vengeance is a demon. Just a more reasonable one but violent nonetheless.

A banter I heard with Anders and Merrill caught my attention. He's telling her how awful abominations are and the difference between demons and spirits and she says something like "ALL spirits from the fade are dangerous. I made a pact with the demon knowing that." Which strikes me as odd because although she pretends there is nothing wrong with what she's doing, she knows that spirits are dangerous. Whereas Anders denied this danger and fell prey to the spirit of Justice who later became a demon. He's in denial.

I think Anders is hardly in control now and I wouldn't call his actions an act of a hero/martyr in the long run. I can understand the crappiness that is being a mage in Thedas, and I was really pro-mage going into the game but I can see that there has to be a smart way of liberating mages and even a compromise. The problem becomes when they use violent methods to do so, which makes people even more afraid of them and the Chantry will use that against them.

I wonder if we'll see something get resolved in DA3 if anything or maybe an expansion pack. I'm still going to spare Anders for the whole reason my Lady Hawke loves him and understand that he's not entirely in control of his mind. I think by Act 3, he's just trying really hard to keep it together. If anything she's willing to provide some sort of sanity into his life.

[Sjofn]

NKKKK wrote...

I'm starting to get Anders thought process now, but I still want a punch him option.

I think this is probably my only issue with the conclusion. I wanted to get across that I wasn't going to abandon him, but that I still thought that was f-ing crazy. But my only options were "you are so dumped" and "tee hee, just us against the world!"

[Kim Shepard]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

Anders is a revolutionary.  He starts out as one from the beginning  And in a world where mages have been systematically controlled and sometimes oppressed for hundreds of years, there is no peaceful way to bring about a revolution.

This is basically what my Orlesian mage told Wynne in Awakening. But unless I'm remembering this wrong, Anders didn't seem to support it much back then... or maybe the idea is more a result of his mind being connected to Justice, who was corrupted by his anger, instead of something Anders would have eventually done on his own.

My Hawke supports it either way. She was based on the Orlesian mage and shares her beliefs.

[Rinji the Bearded]

panamakira wrote...
I don't think what Anders did or does is right. There had to be a better way to have a mage "revolution".

A strongly-worded letter, perhaps?  I suppose that might reverse hundreds of years of strict doctrine and apathetic rule. The Grand Cleric took the stance of "the Maker will sort it out," which is so... asinine and apathetic, considering what has happened.   It's only a fool dream to think that there can be freedom for the mages without fighting involved.

panamakira wrote...
A banter I heard with Anders and Merrill caught my attention. He's telling her how awful abominations are and the difference between demons and spirits and she says something like "ALL spirits from the fade are dangerous. I made a pact with the demon knowing that." Which strikes me as odd because although she pretends there is nothing wrong with what she's doing, she knows that spirits are dangerous. Whereas Anders denied this danger and fell prey to the spirit of Justice who later became a demon. He's in denial.

I think he knew exactly how dangerous they were.  Listen to what he says right before you choose his fate.  The fact that he hasn't transformed into a complete abomination is amazing to me, actually.

panamakira wrote...
I think Anders is hardly in control now and I wouldn't call his actions an act of a hero/martyr in the long run. I can understand the crappiness that is being a mage in Thedas, and I was really pro-mage going into the game but I can see that there has to be a smart way of liberating mages and even a compromise. The problem becomes when they use violent methods to do so, which makes people even more afraid of them and the Chantry will use that against them.

As I said before, the chantry doctrine leans heavily towards the Templars.  Unless someone important, such as the Grand Cleric, were willing to be unafraid to stand up and say "I think we have twisted the words of Andraste and the Maker" to defend the Mages, then perhaps.  But as we saw with the Grand Cleric... that was never going to happen.  I can't exactly blame her for the fear... but it's fear that the Chantry has been preaching all along.  Fear of everything different.  Different does not mean dangerous.

Not to say that all of your reasoning was invalid, though... as I have said many times, it's a matter of perspective.  It's a horrible fate... but it was inevitable.

[cglasgow]

Merrill isn't so much 'pretending that what she's doing is all right' as she's 'finishing this is so important to me that I'm willing to take the risk'. Note that on her final companion quest, she flat-out tells you 'The only way I can finish this mirror is to get the demon to tell me how, and that requires confronting it in the Fade. There is a distinct possibility I will lose the battle of wills... and you'll have to kill me if that happens.'

You can still question her priorities re: 'Restoring this piece of your heritage is so important that you're willing to gamble your life and sanity against long odds, just on the hope that you'll be strong enough to grip the blood magic without losing it?!?', but she can still legitimately tell Anders 'Yeah, we both flirted with dangerous stuff, but at least I never was dumb enough to TRUST it.'

As for my opinion of what Anders did...

I was playing good-guy Hawke who ran on a strict 'mages should be free!' program, and only fought blood mages and abominations because they kept trying to murder innocent people (or me), or were visibly losing their grip on sanity as I was talking to them. I was with Anders the entire way until he asked me to help him sneak into the Chantry, and then I cut him off for lying to me about the potion.

And when the Chantry blew up... let me put it this way. Even if Anders was right about 'The situation was so screwed up that this was the only way'!, he was also right about 'And now that I've done this horrible thing, its only justice that I be executed'. And so my Hawke did execute him, while crying over how the demon Vengeance had finally destroyed what was once a good man.

Because Anders himself said that he'd never stop... and remember, we watched 'Vengeance' almost murder an innocent young mage girl simply because she wasn't rebellious enough for his tastes. And that was BEFORE he lost all his ability to restrain the demon.  Now that he's finally gone over the edge?  You can't let a guy like that keep walking around loose, no matter how justified his cause; he's lost the perspective to tell innocent from guilty, which means nobody is truly safe.

Modifié par cglasgow, 11 mars 2011 - 04:40 .

[TigerShinobi]

You can't stop Anders from blowing it up, when I chose not to help him, he said that's okay, I'll do it myself. However, I gained +5 friendship from saying that O.o

[Rinji the Bearded]

Yes, bringing death to Anders is certainly a merciful option for him... except that I don't know if he was asking for death. He merely said that Justice would be free... free to go back to the Fade. But Justice remained in the material world after leaving Kristoff and approached Anders... would he not, after all that has happened, find another Mage to champion the cause, just as he did before? Also, I think some of us might take the stance against martyrdom -- I have no taste for that to be certain. You start something, you finish it. Death comes by fighting.

My Hawke will stay beside him, finally seeing what he (and she to an extent) have started, and knows what he is capable of doing. Whatever that comes to... no regrets.  She has nothing else to lose.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 11 mars 2011 - 04:54 .

[Lambs09]

cglasgow wrote...

Because Anders himself said that he'd never stop... and remember, we watched 'Vengeance' almost murder an innocent young mage girl simply because she wasn't rebellious enough for his tastes. And that was BEFORE he lost all his ability to restrain the demon.  Now that he's finally gone over the edge?  You can't let a guy like that keep walking around loose, no matter how justified his cause; he's lost the perspective to tell innocent from guilty, which means nobody is truly safe.

And that is the tragedy of this romance.  I hope whatever content they add down the road provides some resolution to the arc.

[Lady Jess]

TigerShinobi wrote...

You can't stop Anders from blowing it up, when I chose not to help him, he said that's okay, I'll do it myself. However, I gained +5 friendship from saying that O.o

My Lady Hawke won't care a bit if he blows up the chantry. She at this point has lost the only other person she cared about, her brother is a dick, and she's about sick to death of being  the go to gal for everyone's problems. Cousin Caislyn Amell may have stuck around and played house politics, but SHE had the safety and assurance of a KING on her side and Kirkwall isn't Ferelden.

After seeing that horridtemplar saying "You know what happens to little mage girls" and insinuating once  she was tranquil they would basically have their way, no. Possessed templars, we don't know HOW many are still around, and alot...so many are just corrupt, and noone in the chntry is doing anything. Sister Patrice...slimeball.  Kill em all let the maker sort it out.

Edit: I'm not sure my Amell import even worked. You'd THINK someone would have said "Hey is your Uncle related to that Hero chick??"

Modifié par Lady Jess, 11 mars 2011 - 04:58 .

[Raiil]

nenosronhir wrote...

No. I actually don't think Anders' actions make it worse for mages. Those that refused Chantry rule were already hunted -and killed- if they opposed the Templars. Those that did not were imprisoned, lobotomized, isolated, encouraged to hate themselves and everything they are because magic is a sin in the Maker's gaze. Life in a Circle is not living; the Circle mages that think so don't know any other life. They are feared and rejected by society because the Chantry deems them dangerous creatures - not people.

I agree, kind of. I think for some people, this just justified their fear of mages. For others, it will galvanise them towards helping them.

I'm sorry the old woman died. I really wish Meredith had been in that building (or sort of do, but she's an awesome nemesis). But the scope of Anders's crimes will be justifiable to a lot of people. Brothers and sisters who love their mage siblings and who would do anything to aid their escape and freedom. People who have been abused and downtrodden by the Chantry- elves, anyone? People who are tired of the abuses the clergy commit, or who have their own views on how the world works and don't appreciate being yelled at for it. 

Meredith's choice, in the end (IMHO) is what is going to force the world to choose what side they're on. And I think who goes where might ultimately be very surprising.

[panamakira]

@RinjiRenee I think our definition of revolution is different. Like I said I can understand his frustration and this is a world where war is inevitable but I will not justify his actions and paint them for something else. Specially when he's not even sure how much of him is left with Vengeance. He's obviously confused and the inner struggles with the demon have him making rash decisions. I really would not have as much problem with what he did, if he wasn't co-existing with a demon. A possessed mage fighting for freedom might not serve the best for their cause and it is driving him mad. This is not the Anders we met in Awakening. This is a mage possessed by a demon and his just cause was tainted by it.

I'm not saying that what the Chantry is doing is right in the least but his actions really left me thinking that there should be a smarter way to fight the Chantry's fanaticism with oppression. In fact, after Alistair's cameo, I've come to think if maybe Ferelden will be the place where things will get into motion again as much as in Kirkwall. Alistair seems to support mages and if rulers can release some of the Chantry's power, it might help.

Like I said my Lady Hawke will spare him only because she hopes she might save the man inside, but I don't even know if there is any left.

[Rinji the Bearded]

@panamakira

Yes, we do have a bit different ideas, but I can also see your point. The hatred in Anders was always present though... I've become more sensitive to the stuff he said back then, and even remembered my Warden telling him that he shouldn't think so small when he talked about having a pretty girl, a nice meal, and the right to shoot lightning bolts at fools. I think he just lacked the courage to do anything... until Justice convinced him. And we all know what happened after that.

He is a broken man to be sure... but after all that's happened, Hawke is pretty broken, too. I hope she will fight for a world that she can be friends with anyone and them never have to be judged because she is a mage, or a world where families are not torn apart because of the magic in their blood... and even the world that Anders describes, where mage like him and a mage like her can fall in love again without it being a pipe dream.  It's worth fighting for.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 11 mars 2011 - 05:24 .

[cglasgow]

I might point out that in some ways, Meredith is a victim in this too; the Kirkwall Circle was never as nice as the Ferelden Circle, but the really psychotic stuff didn't start happening until Meredith got the idol.

Which is why she had to die; the same reason Anders had to die. They were both crazy and both would never stop.

If only there'd been a way to stop them before their crazy set the world on fire.

[panamakira]

RinjiRenee wrote...

@panamakira

Yes, we do have a bit different ideas, but I can also see your point. The hatred in Anders was always present though... I've become more sensitive to the stuff he said back then, and even remembered my Warden telling him that he shouldn't think so small when he talked about having a pretty girl, a nice meal, and the right to shoot lightning bolts at fools. I think he just lacked the courage to do anything... until Justice convinced him. And we all know what happened after that.

He is a broken man to be sure... but after all that's happened, Hawke is pretty broken, too. I hope she will fight for a world that she can be friends with anyone and them never have to be judged because she is a mage, or a world where families are not torn apart because of the magic in their blood... and even the world that Anders describes, where mage like him and a mage like her can fall in love again without it being a pipe dream.  It's worth fighting for.

I agree so much. DA2 is just way darker than DA:O and I think it was the moment they decided to make the story more personal. I used to feel bad about my Warden. She has a lot of things in common with my Lady Hawke but my warden has Alistair. She might not live long or have a real family but she is with the man she loves ruling and hopefully making some good.

Lady Hawke on the other hand is just desperately trying to save the man she loves from himself and trying to stay afloat after the many changes Thedas will go through. He's broken and she keeps herself busy trying not to realize she's as broken too. Althogh she doesn't have to deal with anything possessing her.

The only thing I wish I had more in DA2 among many, was more humor. Everything was just so dark that the only one making joke was my Lady Hawke but no one joins her. Varric is ok and I don't like Isabela too much.

I hope to see more hopefulness in DA3. Seriously, too much angst in DA2.

[Lady Jess]

panamakira wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

@panamakira

Yes, we do have a bit different ideas, but I can also see your point. The hatred in Anders was always present though... I've become more sensitive to the stuff he said back then, and even remembered my Warden telling him that he shouldn't think so small when he talked about having a pretty girl, a nice meal, and the right to shoot lightning bolts at fools. I think he just lacked the courage to do anything... until Justice convinced him. And we all know what happened after that.

He is a broken man to be sure... but after all that's happened, Hawke is pretty broken, too. I hope she will fight for a world that she can be friends with anyone and them never have to be judged because she is a mage, or a world where families are not torn apart because of the magic in their blood... and even the world that Anders describes, where mage like him and a mage like her can fall in love again without it being a pipe dream.  It's worth fighting for.

I agree so much. DA2 is just way darker than DA:O and I think it was the moment they decided to make the story more personal. I used to feel bad about my Warden. She has a lot of things in common with my Lady Hawke but my warden has Alistair. She might not live long or have a real family but she is with the man she loves ruling and hopefully making some good.

Lady Hawke on the other hand is just desperately trying to save the man she loves from himself and trying to stay afloat after the many changes Thedas will go through. He's broken and she keeps herself busy trying not to realize she's as broken too. Althogh she doesn't have to deal with anything possessing her.

The only thing I wish I had more in DA2 among many, was more humor. Everything was just so dark that the only one making joke was my Lady Hawke but no one joins her. Varric is ok and I don't like Isabela too much.

I hope to see more hopefulness in DA3. Seriously, too much angst in DA2.

Me too. And some continuity would be nice. Maybe either let us play our Hawke again, or or Warden. Don't throw a new protagonist at me again. I LOVE my Hawke, I love my Anders but I hate getting attached and then being forced  to ditch them.

And Varric cracks me up. Did you hear the Banter with him and Anders? Varric got the Coterie off his back, I saw him threaten them in a cut scene about bothering "blondie", it was cool to hear Anders bring it up in Banter.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Yeah, as much as Varric seems to disapprove of Anders, I think he can still see that small glimmer of man that's left in him. There's no denying the good that he did in Darktown.

[panamakira]

Lady Jess wrote...

panamakira wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...

@panamakira

Yes, we do have a bit different ideas, but I can also see your point. The hatred in Anders was always present though... I've become more sensitive to the stuff he said back then, and even remembered my Warden telling him that he shouldn't think so small when he talked about having a pretty girl, a nice meal, and the right to shoot lightning bolts at fools. I think he just lacked the courage to do anything... until Justice convinced him. And we all know what happened after that.

He is a broken man to be sure... but after all that's happened, Hawke is pretty broken, too. I hope she will fight for a world that she can be friends with anyone and them never have to be judged because she is a mage, or a world where families are not torn apart because of the magic in their blood... and even the world that Anders describes, where mage like him and a mage like her can fall in love again without it being a pipe dream.  It's worth fighting for.

I agree so much. DA2 is just way darker than DA:O and I think it was the moment they decided to make the story more personal. I used to feel bad about my Warden. She has a lot of things in common with my Lady Hawke but my warden has Alistair. She might not live long or have a real family but she is with the man she loves ruling and hopefully making some good.

Lady Hawke on the other hand is just desperately trying to save the man she loves from himself and trying to stay afloat after the many changes Thedas will go through. He's broken and she keeps herself busy trying not to realize she's as broken too. Althogh she doesn't have to deal with anything possessing her.

The only thing I wish I had more in DA2 among many, was more humor. Everything was just so dark that the only one making joke was my Lady Hawke but no one joins her. Varric is ok and I don't like Isabela too much.

I hope to see more hopefulness in DA3. Seriously, too much angst in DA2.

Me too. And some continuity would be nice. Maybe either let us play our Hawke again, or or Warden. Don't throw a new protagonist at me again. I LOVE my Hawke, I love my Anders but I hate getting attached and then being forced  to ditch them.

And Varric cracks me up. Did you hear the Banter with him and Anders? Varric got the Coterie off his back, I saw him threaten them in a cut scene about bothering "blondie", it was cool to hear Anders bring it up in Banter.

Agreed. I would hate to get into another character's story when both the Warden and Hawke's story feel incomplete. I hope DA3 or even an expansion we at least get more Lady Hawke. She's awesome. She needs to meet my warden.

Yeah Varric's banters save the day. I have most of the time Anders, Fenris and Varric in my party so you can tell how that goes. Fenris and Anders don't agree on anything so thats clear. Varric is there though to make it better and my Lady Hawke. She's hilarious.