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[crotti]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

crotti wrote...

cmessaz wrote...

*peeks in, sees that she is not alone in the Anders squee* Yay! Omg I feel like Loghain all over again...You like Anders you terrorist supporting crazy person! >:{ I'm so glad there are still those that like him. Everywhere I go I get the "you don't kill him?" and "He's a terrorist" crap...it is getting so old.

Yep.  

It's stupid to say that Anders is a terrorist. Heck, you could set a city on fire!

This. The Warden could arguably do lots of terrible things to accomplish a goal. Gragh. I dunno. I understand why people might dislike him and I understand why people disagree with things he does but... it's not nearly so black and white as people make it out to be. And I certainly think it's dumb when people think supporting Anders=supporting terrorism. >_<

I said this before but... some of these things weren't about "accomplishing a goal"... o_O

[cmessaz]

Heh, I hadn't seen that yet thanks >.< How many Anders haters do you think did that?

[Galagraphia]

I'm curious, does Isabela get a lot of hatred because her actions let to all that mess in the act 2? Back to Anders: the most common complaint about him I've seen so far was that BioWare made him "an annoying emo" and some players killed him just because of that
I was kind of surprised that he opened up to Hawke so fast. He wasn't like that with my warden. I guess it says how much he doesn't care about himself. "Here, see what I am. I don't care what you will think. I don't care what others will think of me, nothing will change my plans". It's difficult to explain why I have this impression, maybe because usually people are trying to protect their private lives and Anders doesn't have it anymore because of Justice and his complete devotion to his ultimate goal.

[nodice]

Why is it immediately "Anders hate" if people criticize something he did?

[cmessaz]

nodice wrote...

Why is it immediately "Anders hate" if people criticize something he did?

I was told I support terrorism.  I can handle the criticism..but when they say that, or outright say they hate him because he's a jackass, or whatever...that's Anders hate. I understand other people's points of view on what he does..hell I was when he did it. But most people don't just criticize, unfortunately. And it's not just Anders, I got a ton of crap for liking Loghain too. I don't get into many arguments about what Anders did, but I frequently find myself defending why I like him and romance him.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Galagraphia wrote...

I'm curious, does Isabela get a lot of hatred because her actions let to all that mess in the act 2? Back to Anders: the most common complaint about him I've seen so far was that BioWare made him "an annoying emo" and some players killed him just because of that
I was kind of surprised that he opened up to Hawke so fast. He wasn't like that with my warden. I guess it says how much he doesn't care about himself. "Here, see what I am. I don't care what you will think. I don't care what others will think of me, nothing will change my plans". It's difficult to explain why I have this impression, maybe because usually people are trying to protect their private lives and Anders doesn't have it anymore because of Justice and his complete devotion to his ultimate goal.

See, I'm glad I got to punch Isabela in the face in the third act for what she did (well it was an unrelated quest thing but I felt satisfaction anyway).  I know the Viscount was a bit of a waffler but all the Qunari wanted was the book, and she ran off with it to save her own skin.  Of course, she did come back because she did feel guilty about it, but I was like "MAYBE I SHOULD GIVE YOU OVER TO THE ARISHOK NOW, look at that head over there -- that's kind of your fault.  But *sigh* I like you too much..."

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 18 mars 2011 - 03:45 .

[Nivilant]

cmessaz wrote...

Nivilant wrote...
It's only if you make the effort that you understand.

And from what I've seen, it's another case of them not trying to see or make effort. They either read a spoiler for DA2 before release and decided Anders was an ass from that, or romanced Fenris the first playthrough and didn't get close to Anders, which I suppose could make you dislike him. I think I'm kinda this way with Fenris...his mage stuff rubbed me the wrong way. But I really do need to romance him before I give my honest opinion. IF I can ever tear myself away from Anders and his hot kiss...

Ah. This is where my opinion starts losing credit, because I've never been able to finish a romance with Fenris. I tried, I really did, but there's just something about him that gets me irritated every time. It's not the mage thing. I understand his viewpoint, I truly do. It's the way everything seems to be about him.

If you try to make him see reason about his revenge thing he snits at you. "Yes, that's it, why can't I grasp something so simple?" That's not snark to me, it's just rude. She's trying to help you, you twit.

When he comforts you about your mother, it's his problems again. Anders is just... so much softer and sweeter than Fenris. I think Fenris is the nice 'bad boy' romance girls fantasize about (or so people seem to think). Nice to dream of, horrible to live through. I mean, he ups and leaves you at one point. And yes, I know Anders does that awful emotional blackmail thing and it did tick me off a little bit, but at the same time he so clearly loves Hawke that the issue to me seems pretty minor.

Plus, he doesn't harp on about Templars as much as Fenris harps about mages. Which is interesting given the similarities and differences.

Fenris and Anders both are on the run from someone or something. Fenris chose his 'gift' from what his sister says. Anders was born with it. Fenris is hunted for a choice, whereas Anders is hunted for existing and trying to be free. Anders is criticised for blowing the chantry up, but Fenris quite clearly thinks all mages should be leashed at the best and made tranquil at the worst. Which is essentially supporting something worse than death. Yet he stirs up nowhere near as much controversy. It boggles the mind.

I think the impact is there because we see it. If it had been heard about, not seen, it wouldn't have as much punch.

And yes, the Warden can be an utter lunatic.

[crotti]

cmessaz wrote...

Heh, I hadn't seen that yet thanks >.< How many Anders haters do you think did that?

... Too many XD ... <_<

cmessaz wrote...

nodice wrote...

Why is it immediately "Anders hate" if people criticize something he did?

I
was told I support terrorism.  I can handle the criticism..but when
they say that, or outright say they hate him because he's a jackass, or
whatever...that's Anders hate. I understand other people's points of
view on what he does..hell I was when he did it. But most people
don't just criticize, unfortunately. And it's not just Anders, I got a
ton of crap for liking Loghain too. I don't get into many arguments
about what Anders did, but I frequently find myself defending why I like
him and romance him.

They can hate the character if they want but to say that someone supports terrorism.... what?
That's why I only post here...

[Rinji the Bearded]

Yes, yes... I have been called a terrorist for justifying Anders, but eh. Haters gonna hate.

[Addai]

Galagraphia wrote...

I'm curious, does Isabela get a lot of hatred because her actions let to all that mess in the act 2? Back to Anders: the most common complaint about him I've seen so far was that BioWare made him "an annoying emo" and some players killed him just because of that
I was kind of surprised that he opened up to Hawke so fast. He wasn't like that with my warden. I guess it says how much he doesn't care about himself. "Here, see what I am. I don't care what you will think. I don't care what others will think of me, nothing will change my plans". It's difficult to explain why I have this impression, maybe because usually people are trying to protect their private lives and Anders doesn't have it anymore because of Justice and his complete devotion to his ultimate goal.

On some thread or other- I think it was the "did Anders really love Hawke" one- I pointed out that Isabela also lies and uses Hawke and that her actions have bad consequences.  With Isabela it's more of a case of compounding selfishness and ignorance, however.  She stole something, it got out of hand, but she wasn't willing to face the consequences and others had to pay them.  Anders sets out to start a war, however.  There's a difference of intent where I think it's a bit easier to excuse Isabela.  However, if you look at it that Anders is under the influence of a spirit, that exonerates him a bit.

As far as Anders not being a terrorist, ehh.... you have to agree in principle with his goal of violent overthrow of the Chantry to see him as a freedom fighter rather than a terrorist.  Even playing a mage I saw him as an abomination who had gotten out of control and poured gasoline on an already bad situation, which will end up in a lot of innocent people being killed, including mages.  My PC had killed bad mages/ abominations for doing a lot less than that.  Sparing Anders was hypocritical from that standpoint, though I reloaded and did so because I thought he ought to have to fight if my other companions had to.

I can't say I like DA2 Anders.  There is not the mixture of funny and poignancy that made me like (though not squee over) Awakening Anders.  He is hard to be around, even aside from the fact that he's a trainwreck in motion.  I do kind of wish I had done his romance first, because I doubt I'll be able to do it now, after seeing the end of the game and knowing that it's inevitable.

[SurelyForth]

Galagraphia wrote...

I'm curious, does Isabela get a lot of hatred because her actions let to all that mess in the act 2? Back to Anders: the most common complaint about him I've seen so far was that BioWare made him "an annoying emo" and some players killed him just because of that
I was kind of surprised that he opened up to Hawke so fast. He wasn't like that with my warden. I guess it says how much he doesn't care about himself. "Here, see what I am. I don't care what you will think. I don't care what others will think of me, nothing will change my plans". It's difficult to explain why I have this impression, maybe because usually people are trying to protect their private lives and Anders doesn't have it anymore because of Justice and his complete devotion to his ultimate goal.

I think he opens up because he's lonely and Hawke saw what happened in the Chantry, so it's not like he can go on pretending like he's totally normal. 

I also think there's something meta going on, too. Anders acknowledges that Hawke reminds him of the Warden (or whoever led him while he was a Warden) and then says "We've just met, but I feel like I know you." I think one of the reasons BW used him for two games was because his character concept in DA2 is off-putting, so by having a familiar face, and one that acknowledges the familiarity, the player can better connect with him and it helps establish a connection between him and Hawke, which is important since he becomes such a jerkass in Act 3. If he was just random GW Anders who is intermittently amusing, obsessed with Hawke and then a pain in the ass for almost a third of the game, then not many people would care about him in the end and the Chantry explosion might not have the same impact.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 18 mars 2011 - 03:52 .

[cmessaz]

Nivilant wrote...

cmessaz wrote...

Nivilant wrote...
It's only if you make the effort that you understand.

And from what I've seen, it's another case of them not trying to see or make effort. They either read a spoiler for DA2 before release and decided Anders was an ass from that, or romanced Fenris the first playthrough and didn't get close to Anders, which I suppose could make you dislike him. I think I'm kinda this way with Fenris...his mage stuff rubbed me the wrong way. But I really do need to romance him before I give my honest opinion. IF I can ever tear myself away from Anders and his hot kiss...

Ah. This is where my opinion starts losing credit, because I've never been able to finish a romance with Fenris. I tried, I really did, but there's just something about him that gets me irritated every time. It's not the mage thing. I understand his viewpoint, I truly do. It's the way everything seems to be about him.

If you try to make him see reason about his revenge thing he snits at you. "Yes, that's it, why can't I grasp something so simple?" That's not snark to me, it's just rude. She's trying to help you, you twit.

When he comforts you about your mother, it's his problems again. Anders is just... so much softer and sweeter than Fenris. I think Fenris is the nice 'bad boy' romance girls fantasize about (or so people seem to think). Nice to dream of, horrible to live through. I mean, he ups and leaves you at one point. And yes, I know Anders does that awful emotional blackmail thing and it did tick me off a little bit, but at the same time he so clearly loves Hawke that the issue to me seems pretty minor.

Plus, he doesn't harp on about Templars as much as Fenris harps about mages. Which is interesting given the similarities and differences.

Fenris and Anders both are on the run from someone or something. Fenris chose his 'gift' from what his sister says. Anders was born with it. Fenris is hunted for a choice, whereas Anders is hunted for existing and trying to be free. Anders is criticised for blowing the chantry up, but Fenris quite clearly thinks all mages should be leashed at the best and made tranquil at the worst. Which is essentially supporting something worse than death. Yet he stirs up nowhere near as much controversy. It boggles the mind.

I think the impact is there because we see it. If it had been heard about, not seen, it wouldn't have as much punch.

And yes, the Warden can be an utter lunatic.

Yeah and I agree about Fenris..I really do WANT to like him..he just struck me the wrong way. The mage thing is there, but yeah. When I tried to give him the sword and he refused it and got pissed..I was like w/e dude. I really do need to try to romance him. But then Anders gives me those eyes... *swoons*

[Sarah1281]

Fenris and Anders both are on the run from someone or something. Fenris chose his 'gift' from what his sister says. Anders was born with it. Fenris is hunted for a choice, whereas Anders is hunted for existing and trying to be free.

I think a better comparison would be Fenris 'choosing' the markings when he had no idea what that would mean and just wanted to help people and Anders choosing Justice when he had no idea what that would mean and just wanted to help people.

So...in the course of rivalmancing Anders I've had to do some things I think are horrible (blackmailing Thrask, one of only four non-horrible templars I've met, was nauseating) but I don't care how many rivalry points I got, forcing Grace to return right away was completely worth it. It might be nice for her to have an actual reason to hate me when she goes bat**** later on, kidnaps my sibling, and kills Thrask for no real reason.

[TheGoddess0fWar]

I totally see the justification in Ander's decision. Lol.

[cmessaz]

Sarah!!! I want a rundown of the Anders rivalmance!!!

@Goddess I love what you wrote in your sig XD

Modifié par cmessaz, 18 mars 2011 - 03:54 .

[snarkycleric]

crotti wrote...


They can hate the character if they want but to say that someone supports terrorism.... what?

*facepalms

I don't understand it, either. What your Hawke does does not reflect (or at least necessarily reflect) what you think, so... =\\

(Besides, the whole tragedy of DA2 is that there really isn't any middle ground. At least it seemed that way to me, and somehow people yelling at each other over their favourite characters just seems horribly ironic.)

[nodice]

cmessaz wrote...

nodice wrote...

Why is it immediately "Anders hate" if people criticize something he did?

I was told I support terrorism.  I can handle the criticism..but when they say that, or outright say they hate him because he's a jackass, or whatever...that's Anders hate. I understand other people's points of view on what he does..hell I was when he did it. But most people don't just criticize, unfortunately. And it's not just Anders, I got a ton of crap for liking Loghain too. I don't get into many arguments about what Anders did, but I frequently find myself defending why I like him and romance him.

Fair enough. Things are getting personal, I see Thing seem to get mixed up. I actually love Anders' character, but that doesn't mean I agree what he did to the Chantry and what he did to Hawke. Especially to Hawke. It's interesting though how differently people can see the situation. 

And about Isabela. I think I actually shouted "you ****!" when she told be about the relic thingy and left. But then she came back, showed growth and settled the things with Hawke. This never happened with Anders. Isabela is a coward while Anders is...other things.

[Nivilant]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Fenris and Anders both are on the run from someone or something. Fenris chose his 'gift' from what his sister says. Anders was born with it. Fenris is hunted for a choice, whereas Anders is hunted for existing and trying to be free.

I think a better comparison would be Fenris 'choosing' the markings when he had no idea what that would mean and just wanted to help people and Anders choosing Justice when he had no idea what that would mean and just wanted to help people.

So...in the course of rivalmancing Anders I've had to do some things I think are horrible (blackmailing Thrask, one of only four non-horrible templars I've met, was nauseating) but I don't care how many rivalry points I got, forcing Grace to return right away was completely worth it. It might be nice for her to have an actual reason to hate me when she goes bat**** later on, kidnaps my sibling, and kills Thrask for no real reason.

Ah, that is indeed a better point. As I say, I'm awful at justification dot-to-dots. I just have a very strong gut feeling about what I agree with or don't, and then trying to explain it gets difficult because it's just... what I feel, y'know? (I'm frequently told my moral compass is crazy)

Hmm. Sibling died in the Deep Roads for me. Oops. So Anders got snatched instead while I was trying to up the friendships on my other companions. Hawke's growled "Hurt him and I'll kill you' was pretty satisfying really. Although I did partially expect Justice to freak out at having blood magic used to bind him.

[cmessaz]

Everyone sees it differently and are totally free to..but exactly insulting people is a bit insane. I'm glad I found this thread, Surely did it again!!! \\o/ I am not alone!

[tallon1982]

I think people just want to hate on Anders period and what happened with the Chantry just gave them more ammo. It doesn't matter that as the Warden you had all these options to shank people or ruin the ashes. Hell you could send people to their deaths if you didn't do the dark ritual which I'm sure many people did when it came to Alistair or getting Loghain killed off. I didn't like Loghain in DAO but I like Anders in DA2, go figure right? I understood why Loghain did what he did in DAO but because I didn't agree with his choice I never chose to 'save' him and that's just the way my Warden was. Now with Anders in DA2 because of the romancing etc my Hawke has a tougher choice and since love and family are important to her she chose to side with him. -shrugs- I guess I'm screwed up lol.

[SurelyForth]

Anders never had a chance to settle anything with Hawke, because he was either dead or you were going into battle. Isabela apparently avoids Hawke for three freaking years after the Arishok is dealt with, so it takes her awhile to come around and Anders just does not have that luxury.

[Sarah1281]

I do so love how all of your companions make it a habit of avoiding you for YEARS ON END if they don't want to deal with something right away.

Edit: Damnit Petrice! I said I didn't want to be your pawn for inciting massive qunari hatred!  Man, she's obnoxious even when she's pretending to be nice and charitable.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 18 mars 2011 - 04:12 .

[nodice]

SurelyForth wrote...

Anders never had a chance to settle anything with Hawke, because he was either dead or you were going into battle. Isabela apparently avoids Hawke for three freaking years after the Arishok is dealt with, so it takes her awhile to come around and Anders just does not have that luxury.

This is what bothered me in the game. There was no epilogue. Hawke had no chance to confront the man. Then again Anders could have put Hawke in to a better position. Now it's basically kill him or accept what he did. Quite unfair. Isabela didn't leave Hawke knee deep in **** cause she comes back. The three years is a bit long, I admit.

What did Anders do for three years, hang around with his revolutionary posse, which Hawke knew nothing about.

[nenosronhir]

I wonder how she even managed to avoid Hawke - guess she vanishes from the Hanged Man? (Because my Hawke would totally be there every other night chillin' with Varric... XD) I don't know what happens when she comes back since I ... didn't get her friendship/rivalry up high enough to keep her around. ;^;

Isabela: ...
Hawke: ...
Isabela: So, we're not going to talk about this.
*more awkward silence, Hawke wanders off to chill with Varric*
Isabela: ...balls.

[Nivilant]

nenosronhir wrote...

I wonder how she even managed to avoid Hawke - guess she vanishes from the Hanged Man? (Because my Hawke would totally be there every other night chillin' with Varric... XD) I don't know what happens when she comes back since I ... didn't get her friendship/rivalry up high enough to keep her around. ;^;

Isabela: ...
Hawke: ...
Isabela: So, we're not going to talk about this.
*more awkward silence, Hawke wanders off to chill with Varric*
Isabela: ...balls.

After the timeskip it says she 'resurfaced' at the Hanged Man, so presumably she went underground and avoided all contact.