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[catabuca]

With regard to the Fenris/Anders comparison above, yesterday I got Fenris' line where he says something like, "Eventually you have to stop running. You have to turn and face the tiger." I wanted to grab him and shout "BUT THAT'S WHAT ANDERS IS DOING, YOU DOLT".

They are so similar, but Fenris in particular is completely blind to that.

I'm definitely set on romancing Fenris this 2nd run, but already I'm looking at Anders feeling protective. I'm adamant his story is best experienced while romancing him. It's all the more poignant.

[cmessaz]

Actually, Anders gave up on the mage cause for 3 years, according to his codex. He just recently picked it back up in act 3.

Modifié par cmessaz, 18 mars 2011 - 04:20 .

[YamiSnuffles]

nodice wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

Anders never had a chance to settle anything with Hawke, because he was either dead or you were going into battle. Isabela apparently avoids Hawke for three freaking years after the Arishok is dealt with, so it takes her awhile to come around and Anders just does not have that luxury.

This is what bothered me in the game. There was no epilogue. Hawke had no chance to confront the man. Then again Anders could have put Hawke in to a better position. Now it's basically kill him or accept what he did. Quite unfair. Isabela didn't leave Hawke knee deep in **** cause she comes back. The three years is a bit long, I admit.

What did Anders do for three years, hang around with his revolutionary posse, which Hawke knew nothing about.

Of course, this is dependent on the playthrough. She just screwed over Hawke and Kirkwall and never returned in mine. Had she come back, I don't know that I could have fought at her side. At least Anders was- theoretically- trying to do something for the greater good.  Isabela just shanked me to save her own skin.

[BlastedLands]

Nivilant wrote...


Hmm. Sibling died in the Deep Roads for me. Oops. So Anders got snatched instead while I was trying to up the friendships on my other companions. Hawke's growled "Hurt him and I'll kill you' was pretty satisfying really. Although I did partially expect Justice to freak out at having blood magic used to bind him.

oh damn. i totally forgot about that:blink: i'm always trying to keep them, but maybe i should try that.

[tallon1982]

My guess is Anders just stuck to his clinic for three years and avoided anything to do with Mages. Perhaps he even traveled around with Hawke in hopes of getting his mind off it during that time though we all know it's Justice that probably nagged him to death unless those blackouts of his kept him from realizing he was still working for the cause.

[Eshaye]

tallon1982 wrote...

I think people just want to hate on Anders period and what happened with the Chantry just gave them more ammo. It doesn't matter that as the Warden you had all these options to shank people or ruin the ashes. Hell you could send people to their deaths if you didn't do the dark ritual which I'm sure many people did when it came to Alistair or getting Loghain killed off. I didn't like Loghain in DAO but I like Anders in DA2, go figure right? I understood why Loghain did what he did in DAO but because I didn't agree with his choice I never chose to 'save' him and that's just the way my Warden was. Now with Anders in DA2 because of the romancing etc my Hawke has a tougher choice and since love and family are important to her she chose to side with him. -shrugs- I guess I'm screwed up lol.

People are freaking out because in the US blowing a building up is a sensitive issue. I think that is what it is from the perspective of someone from across the border. 

There needs to be a separation of story vs real life that isn't happening with this issue as well. This one act stands out because it's big and maybe close to home to some. However there are TONS of horrific acts commited throughout the game(s) and as you said those are not seen as any big deal at all. 

Personally I have a hard time finding such fault with Anders, sure my character wouldn't have condoned it outright, however is what he did any worse then what was done for years to the mages AND templars? Being slowly turned into maddened drug addicts is a good thing? Everyone in power at the end is either incompetent, dead or bat shat insane. While the grand cleric was innocent in the sense that she didn't do anything, she is also GUILTY because she didn't do anything when she had the power to. Something had to give. 

Vive la revolution?!  After all that I really wanted to say is there's no reason for you to feel bad or defend why you stuck with Anders at the end. It's not even you, it's a character you played in a video game. 

[Nivilant]

catabuca wrote...

With regard to the Fenris/Anders comparison above, yesterday I got Fenris' line where he says something like, "Eventually you have to stop running. You have to turn and face the tiger." I wanted to grab him and shout "BUT THAT'S WHAT ANDERS IS DOING, YOU DOLT".

They are so similar, but Fenris in particular is completely blind to that.

I'm definitely set on romancing Fenris this 2nd run, but already I'm looking at Anders feeling protective. I'm adamant his story is best experienced while romancing him. It's all the more poignant.

I pretty much just re-read what I wrote and thought 'yeah, that means nothing you flipping idiot'. Let that stand as a testament to how much I suck at serious discussions. Why can I never explain myself in words dammit?? We need a thought-link thing like Justice and Anders... wait, no. Maybe not. I'd scar a couple people for life I'm sure.

I think that's what gets me really, is that I do feel the need (in-game mind you) to protect Anders, whereas I never get that sense with the others. Except Beth, but she's my sister. Ironically he ended up with more health than my rogue so she was the one who needed healing spells all the time while I pumped points into dexterity and cunning. Mind you, she did take down a high dragon through sheer mighty defense and much whittling of hit points.

On another unrelated note, I am getting to see what people mean when they talk about Anders distracting them in battle. I caught him using a paralysis glyph yesterday and was like 'oh that looked cool! Do it again!'

Glyph of Paralysis + Storm of Arrows = Slaughter

[Aeowyn]

I don't agree with what Anders did, but I can UNDERSTAND it. I mean really, the first time I played the game it was obvious that the templar/mage issue was getting way out of hand in Act 3. And the Grand Cleric chose to close her eyes and pretend that it's children arguing about something small. In my opinion she could've chosen to step in and calmed down both Meredith and Orsino.
Then there's Justice. Reading Anders Act 3 codex it is obvious that he's losing his struggle, and it was obvious that he was giving up by the time he had bombed the Chantry. He was expecting to be killed right there and then.

Like Cme, I have been told that I support terrorism as well, and I find that ridiculous. People need to learn how to separate real life from a game, and LI wars are stupid.

[tallon1982]

Oh I don't feel bad for staying with Anders in the end. I actually agreed with his actions in that something had to be done. I'm willing to bet Andraste did similar things or worse to get what she wanted done all in the name of the Maker. I don't connect actions in a game to real life though there are parallels to certain things I'm not about to compare what happens to the Chantry in this game to what happened to the US back on 9/11 like some people are. That is just ridiculous. And I have watched the video several times of the Chantry blowing up and the only people I saw within were some sisters and templars.

[nodice]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

Of course, this is dependent on the playthrough. She just screwed over Hawke and Kirkwall and never returned in mine. Had she come back, I don't know that I could have fought at her side. At least Anders was- theoretically- trying to do something for the greater good.  Isabela just shanked me to save her own skin.

Well she doesn't come back if she's not friends with Hawke, why would she. I think it's much braver from Isabela to come back and put her own life at risk and then lay low. Anders doesn't care if he dies, Isabela does. So what Isabela does by coming back is to say "see I care, I would die for you" and, well, hide (cause of Castillion I guess) after that. Anders on the other hand is impossible to talk to before his big show and afterwards too. He's ready to die for the cause but not for Hawke. Hawke has no say in anything. She/he just has to do what ever Anders wants to be done or lose him forever. I can only imagine how hard it must be for Hawke to face Anders after the final battle. What do you say?

Modifié par nodice, 18 mars 2011 - 04:42 .

[BlastedLands]

tallon1982 wrote...

 And I have watched the video several times of the Chantry blowing up and the only people I saw within were some sisters and templars.

it didn't seem that crowded for me... i always thought it was more symbolic. murder yes, but i'd leave out "mass" (not that that makes it better:?)

Oh I don't feel bad for staying with Anders in the end. I actually
agreed with his actions in that something had to be done. I'm willing
to bet Andraste did similar things or worse to get what she wanted done
all in the name of the Maker.

i don't feel bad at all. if someone were to come up with some better idea we could have skipped the whole blowing-things-up part.

[crotti]

tallon1982 wrote...

Oh I don't feel bad for staying with Anders in the end. I actually agreed with his actions in that something had to be done. I'm willing to bet Andraste did similar things or worse to get what she wanted done all in the name of the Maker. I don't connect actions in a game to real life though there are parallels to certain things I'm not about to compare what happens to the Chantry in this game to what happened to the US back on 9/11 like some people are. That is just ridiculous. And I have watched the video several times of the Chantry blowing up and the only people I saw within were some sisters and templars.

But... I always thought that Andraste thrashed her enemies with the mighty power of floral arrangements... And overpowered them with her rosy scent.


(I know I'm stupid.)

[tallon1982]

crotti wrote...

tallon1982 wrote...

Oh I don't feel bad for staying with Anders in the end. I actually agreed with his actions in that something had to be done. I'm willing to bet Andraste did similar things or worse to get what she wanted done all in the name of the Maker. I don't connect actions in a game to real life though there are parallels to certain things I'm not about to compare what happens to the Chantry in this game to what happened to the US back on 9/11 like some people are. That is just ridiculous. And I have watched the video several times of the Chantry blowing up and the only people I saw within were some sisters and templars.

But... I always thought that Andraste thrashed her enemies with the mighty power of floral arrangements... And overpowered them with her rosy scent.


(I know I'm stupid.)

According to Alistair maybe...lol

As far as Anders being a murderer couldn't you also say the Chantry is an accessory to murder, drug dealing and rape? Yea I'm pushing it but he sort of pulled 'old western justice' on them.

[cmessaz]

@Tallon, yeah I kinda feel the same way.

[catabuca]

Nivilant wrote...

catabuca wrote...

With regard to the Fenris/Anders comparison above, yesterday I got Fenris' line where he says something like, "Eventually you have to stop running. You have to turn and face the tiger." I wanted to grab him and shout "BUT THAT'S WHAT ANDERS IS DOING, YOU DOLT".

They are so similar, but Fenris in particular is completely blind to that.

I'm definitely set on romancing Fenris this 2nd run, but already I'm looking at Anders feeling protective. I'm adamant his story is best experienced while romancing him. It's all the more poignant.

I pretty much just re-read what I wrote and thought 'yeah, that means nothing you flipping idiot'. Let that stand as a testament to how much I suck at serious discussions. Why can I never explain myself in words dammit?? We need a thought-link thing like Justice and Anders... wait, no. Maybe not. I'd scar a couple people for life I'm sure.

I think that's what gets me really, is that I do feel the need (in-game mind you) to protect Anders, whereas I never get that sense with the others. Except Beth, but she's my sister. Ironically he ended up with more health than my rogue so she was the one who needed healing spells all the time while I pumped points into dexterity and cunning. Mind you, she did take down a high dragon through sheer mighty defense and much whittling of hit points.

On another unrelated note, I am getting to see what people mean when they talk about Anders distracting them in battle. I caught him using a paralysis glyph yesterday and was like 'oh that looked cool! Do it again!'

Glyph of Paralysis + Storm of Arrows = Slaughter

Yeah, I don't get that feeling of protection for anyone else either. I find it really interesting that BW will create certain LIs that have such an important role in the central plot of their games, where other LIs don't. It makes those romances all the more powerful. In one way it's possibly to the detriment of the power of the other romances. For example, Fenris' romance is wonderful, very awesome, and so on, but it isn't linked in such an important way to the central plot, and being in a romance with him isn't necessarily going to have a 'pause and think this over for 10 minutes' effect once the Chantry goes boom. Being in a romance with Anders changes everything.

And it's interesting that it's only really him. In DAO you could argue there was a female counterpart in Morrigan, and that players who romanced either would find the end-game actions more weighty than those who romanced Zev or Leli. But in this it's really only Anders. I guess the end of act 2 would be crucial for those in a relationship with Izzy, but since it's not on the mage/templar issue and doesn't have a bearing when it comes to your big end-game decisions, I guess I don't class it in the same league. Really, in DA2 it's ALL about Anders, the whole game.

And, heh, yes, during battles I only ever shouted at the screen if something killed Anders. Like the big spider in the Deep Roads. I was playing on hard and squealing 'let Anders go, you bastard', and having to pause so I could stop laughing at my own ridiculousness

(off-topic, playing on hard was so much fun I was laughing so HARD at the way I kept getting pwned. During the ogre fight in the deep roads, Hawke and Anders died, leaving Carver and Varric to try to kill it. I controlled Varric and by god was it hilarious making him run away -- me screaming with laughter shouting 'RUN VARRIC, RUN!' -- watching his little legs furiously running. We did it though, yes we did. And we killed the dragon, although there was only one of us left standing at the end of that ... Hawke iirc.)

[silver-crescent]

OK so I know what Anders does and I can live with it but I just have to ask something. At the end of the game does he stay "sane" more or less or does he lose himself completely?

I'm asking because him going insane at the end (and I mean truly insane, not "i-hate-the-templars-so-much-i'm-gonna-blow-up-the-chantry" insane) would be WAY too depressing and if that's the case I dunno if I could manage to follow with the romance :|

I don't mind him and Hawke being fugitives at the end, that's kinda romantic I guess, especially since in my game they're both apostates.

Modifié par silver-crescent, 18 mars 2011 - 04:52 .

[Eydris Ivo]

I do think it's silly for gamers to be calling other gamers 'terrorists' because of a decision they made in a game. This is obviously not real life and we play for pleasure and obviously emotional heartbreak (lol).

I mean, the Chantry enables Templars and one could say that the templars have commited acts of 'terrorism' as well. No one can deny the plight of mages, who were simply born that way. Everyone complains on how the mages are so 'evil' and turn to blood magic. But a desperate person will do desperate things to be free/feed their family/protect the people they love. I believe that if mages were less oppressed they would not turn to such measures.

I definitely sided with Anders, and will continue to do so. The more I play though, the more I wonder if separating Justice from Anders is a good idea or if it will leave a broken shell of a man. Perhaps a better way would be to have them somehow live in peace. Make Anders stronger and bring Justice to a point where he is more rational.

And reposting for everyone who missed it at 3 am this morning when I posted it: Anders Romance Scene without Shirt

Despite our differing opinions on the body type, we still all love Anders

Modifié par Rheia1234, 18 mars 2011 - 04:54 .

[Eydris Ivo]

Strange double post...

Modifié par Rheia1234, 18 mars 2011 - 04:54 .

[leggywillow]

silver-crescent wrote...

OK so I know what Anders does and I can live with it but I just have to ask something. At the end of the game does he stay "sane" more or less or does he lose himself completely?

I'm asking because him going insane at the end (and I mean truly insane, not "i-hate-the-templars-so-much-i'm-gonna-blow-up-the-chantry" insane) would be WAY too depressing and if that's the case I dunno if I could manage to follow with the romance :|

I don't mind him and Hawke being fugitives at the end, that's kinda romantic I guess, especially since in my game they're both apostates.

That's the million dollar question.  :/  I guess it's up for debate, depending on how optimistic you are.

[YamiSnuffles]

nodice wrote...

YamiSnuffles wrote...

Of course, this is dependent on the playthrough. She just screwed over Hawke and Kirkwall and never returned in mine. Had she come back, I don't know that I could have fought at her side. At least Anders was- theoretically- trying to do something for the greater good.  Isabela just shanked me to save her own skin.

Well she doesn't come back if she's not friends with Hawke, why would she. I think it's much braver from Isabela to come back and put her own life at risk and then lay low. Anders doesn't care if he dies, Isabela does. So what Isabela does by coming back is to say "see I care, I would die for you" and, well, hide (cause od Castillion I guess) after that. Anders on the other hand is impossible to talk to before his big show and afterwards too. He's ready to die for the cause but not for Hawke. Hawke has no say in anything. She/he just has to do what ever Anders wants to be done or lose his forever. I can only imagine how hard it must be for Hawke to face Anders after the final battle. What do you say?

Why would she? How about, Kirkwall would have been utterly destroyed by her greed? Like her or not, I would have died to defend her if she had prevented things from going the way they did with the Qunari. I don't hate Isabela. I actually quite like her, but I still think she was completely selfish.

As for Anders, I don't see how him not talking to you about the Chantry plan shows he loves you less. He needed help and he hoped that the person who claims to love him would give him that help. However, he avoids actually telling you what he's going to do because he knows it's a fairly terrible thing (even if he thinks it must be done despite that). I think his line about  not telling Hawke because he was afraid Hawke would actually want to help is the most telling. But then, I happen to think more of him for thinking some things are more important than his personal happiness. I don't think I could have continued the romance had he been willing to give up everything he believed in just for Hawke.  If I was against everything he stands for, why should he want to be with me?

[Celestria129]

silver-crescent wrote...

OK so I know what Anders does and I can live with it but I just have to ask something. At the end of the game does he stay "sane" more or less or does he lose himself completely?

I'm asking because him going insane at the end (and I mean truly insane, not "i-hate-the-templars-so-much-i'm-gonna-blow-up-the-chantry" insane) would be WAY too depressing and if that's the case I dunno if I could manage to follow with the romance :|

I think after the "Big Bang" event that Anders will slowly start to regain control of himself and Justice because Justice did what he set out to do so i think, and hope, that he won't be as "Die Tempalars Die" as he was before and he will start to fade into the background, at least for a little while.......

or something to that affect, i can't put thought to print very well

Modifié par Celestria129, 18 mars 2011 - 04:59 .

[crotti]

Celestria129 wrote...

silver-crescent wrote...

OK so I know what Anders does and I can live with it but I just have to ask something. At the end of the game does he stay "sane" more or less or does he lose himself completely?

I'm asking because him going insane at the end (and I mean truly insane, not "i-hate-the-templars-so-much-i'm-gonna-blow-up-the-chantry" insane) would be WAY too depressing and if that's the case I dunno if I could manage to follow with the romance :|

I think after the "Big Bang" event that Anders will slowly start to regain control of himself and Justice because Justice did what he set out to do so i think, and hope, that he won't be as "Die Tempalars Die" as he was before and he will start to fade into the background, at least for a little while.......

I hope so...

[silver-crescent]

Celestria129 wrote...

silver-crescent wrote...

OK so I know what Anders does and I can live with it but I just have to ask something. At the end of the game does he stay "sane" more or less or does he lose himself completely?

I'm asking because him going insane at the end (and I mean truly insane, not "i-hate-the-templars-so-much-i'm-gonna-blow-up-the-chantry" insane) would be WAY too depressing and if that's the case I dunno if I could manage to follow with the romance :|

I think after the "Big Bang" event that Anders will slowly start to regain control of himself and Justice because Justice did what he set out to do so i think, and hope, that he won't be as "Die Tempalars Die" as he was before and he will start to fade into the background, at least for a little while.......

I suppose that would make sense. But does the game give any indication either way?

[tallon1982]

I'd loved to go into the Fade and smack Justice around...Knock some sense into him literally.

[Eydris Ivo]

I honestly may not tell my love if I was planning something that big, something I knew I might be prosecuted and die for and would do no matter what they said. I wouldn't want that to fall on their shoulders. I would want to protect them from the consequences.