57020 réponses à ce sujet

[thebrute7]

Miri1984 wrote...

Hey, I didn't realise quite how much we got yelled at in that post. I feel strangely proud .

Imagine how I feel   I got yelled at for thoughts that I hadn't even expressed yet.

[Miri1984]

thebrute7 wrote...

Miri1984 wrote...

Hey, I didn't realise quite how much we got yelled at in that post. I feel strangely proud .

Imagine how I feel   I got yelled at for thoughts that I hadn't even expressed yet.

*fistbump* I hope you feel proud too! *GROUP HUG*

[Aggie Punbot]

eleridragon wrote...

*raises the lid of the crate she's usually hiding in whilst lurking*

*points out the other crates in the dark corner to Ashwraith*

*lowers crate lid again and looks out through the holes nervously*


*realises she's got top post and whimpers*

Awww, you're utterly adorable!

[Amondra]

So I just wanted to pop in and say how funny the games ending is for me now because all I can think of is the Grand Cleric getting killed by a poop bomb....

[nyxocity]

 Doing my first play through as a mage. Usually I hate playing mages, because I like to be in the middle of the action and standing back casting spells feels... boring. This play through was kind of boring at first, but then I got to specialize as a force mage, and MAN. Can we say ridiculously overpowered? Loving it! And yes, this is totally on topic, because for the first time I get to stand back to back with Anders as we lay waste to the world and it is an awesome thing to behold. *G*
She's still trying to hate-bang Fenris first, though. 

[nyxocity]

Where did everyone go?

[Mxcl]

Zep Rowsdower wrote...

April 10th is henceforth Sebthina Buttbaby Day.

this is totally on-topic because we were talking about it in the meredander stream okay

You scare me, but maybe that's why I love you.

[TripLight]

Zep Rowsdower wrote...

April 10th is henceforth Sebthina Buttbaby Day.

this is totally on-topic because we were talking about it in the meredander stream okay

Oh maker NOOOOOOOOOOO!

[thebrute7]

dreadpiratesnugglecakes wrote...

thebrute7 wrote...

I have finally come to the conclusion that Ander's destruction of the Chantry was not in fact terrorism... I'll have to write out my rationale for you guys later so you can understand my thoughts on it.

Plus I hate Elthina...

Oh, a manifesto justifying the slaughter of church goers?  Can't wait to read it.  Does it start with 'They had it coming!!' ?


So save your thoughts on justifying murder.  I've laughed enough today.

I guess I should explain myself since I apparently got forum slapped while I was away for something I never explained

I think you misinterpreted what I said.  I did not say that I felt his action was good or evil in either case, I simply said I do not believe it to be an act of terrorism as people constantly say it is.  If you all will excuse me I need to go back to writing out my thoughts...  If my fanfic will let me stay focused long enough.

Nope it won't.  So I'll give you guys the short version with much less of my rationalizing and real-world comparisons.

Essentially my argument is that Anders' attack on the Chantry was not terrorism because the Chantry is in fact a valid military target,

1.  Anders and other mages give us much information about the abuses of the templars in both games.
2.  Anders talked with our friend the Grand Cleric who has consistently refused for 7 years to do a single thing about the abuses of the templars.  Or even reign in meredith for that matter...

3.  The templars are the enemy that Anders is fighting to try and free the mages.
4.  The Chantry is responsible for the templars as they are an order of the Chantry and not seperate. 
5.  If the templars are responsible to the Chantry, then the Chantry (i.e. the grand cleric) has the authority to control the templars and reign in their activities.  (beatings, rape etc.)
6.  The chantry is the center of the Chantry's power in Kirkwall.  (just as the White House is the center of our government's power)
7.  Which makes the Chantry a legitimate military target  (A power center of the force being fought)  Just as the White House is a legitimate military target for an enemy of the United States

If (7) is accepted then the bombing of the chantry by Anders is in fact an attack on the power center of the authority he is fighting and thus a legitimate attack. 

Any civilian deaths in the attack are incidental and not intended (assumpt ion on my part) just as civilians would die in say, a rocket attack ont eh White House by an enemy of the United States.  But as a center of the enemies authority and power I feel that it is a military target and thus an attack is not an act of terrorism.

That's the short version ina  nutshell.  Whether you agree with me or not, you understand my point a little bit.  This reflects not on the rightness or wrongness of Anders' actions, only on whether or not it is an act of terrorism.  (Which I feel it is not.)

I left out a lot of stuff that I would add as supplemental evidence to make my pint better because I decided it probably wouldn't change anyone's opinions anyway.

Now that you have my thoughts feel free to argue with me if you wish...

Oh, and let us all hope for more Andersy goodness.  And thank you Miri for the kitten pic, it made me happy.  *fistbump*

[Sherbet Lemon]

TripLight wrote...

Zep Rowsdower wrote...

April 10th is henceforth Sebthina Buttbaby Day.

this is totally on-topic because we were talking about it in the meredander stream okay

Oh maker NOOOOOOOOOOO!

OH.  MY.  EWWWWWW........

I can't unsee it.  CAN'T UNSEE. Gaaahhhh....

[thebrute7]

Village Idiot wrote...

TripLight wrote...

Zep Rowsdower wrote...

April 10th is henceforth Sebthina Buttbaby Day.

this is totally on-topic because we were talking about it in the meredander stream okay

Oh maker NOOOOOOOOOOO!

OH.  MY.  EWWWWWW........

I can't unsee it.  CAN'T UNSEE. Gaaahhhh....

I second this post.

[signcherie]

thebrute7 wrote...

dreadpiratesnugglecakes wrote...

thebrute7 wrote...

I have finally come to the conclusion that Ander's destruction of the Chantry was not in fact terrorism... I'll have to write out my rationale for you guys later so you can understand my thoughts on it.

Plus I hate Elthina...

Oh, a manifesto justifying the slaughter of church goers? Can't wait to read it. Does it start with 'They had it coming!!' ?


So save your thoughts on justifying murder. I've laughed enough today.

I guess I should explain myself since I apparently got forum slapped while I was away for something I never explained

I think you misinterpreted what I said. I did not say that I felt his action was good or evil in either case, I simply said I do not believe it to be an act of terrorism as people constantly say it is. If you all will excuse me I need to go back to writing out my thoughts... If my fanfic will let me stay focused long enough.

Nope it won't. So I'll give you guys the short version with much less of my rationalizing and real-world comparisons.

Essentially my argument is that Anders' attack on the Chantry was not terrorism because the Chantry is in fact a valid military target,

1. Anders and other mages give us much information about the abuses of the templars in both games.
2. Anders talked with our friend the Grand Cleric who has consistently refused for 7 years to do a single thing about the abuses of the templars. Or even reign in meredith for that matter...

3. The templars are the enemy that Anders is fighting to try and free the mages.
4. The Chantry is responsible for the templars as they are an order of the Chantry and not seperate.
5. If the templars are responsible to the Chantry, then the Chantry (i.e. the grand cleric) has the authority to control the templars and reign in their activities. (beatings, rape etc.)
6. The chantry is the center of the Chantry's power in Kirkwall. (just as the White House is the center of our government's power)
7. Which makes the Chantry a legitimate military target (A power center of the force being fought) Just as the White House is a legitimate military target for an enemy of the United States

If (7) is accepted then the bombing of the chantry by Anders is in fact an attack on the power center of the authority he is fighting and thus a legitimate attack.

Any civilian deaths in the attack are incidental and not intended (assumpt ion on my part) just as civilians would die in say, a rocket attack ont eh White House by an enemy of the United States. But as a center of the enemies authority and power I feel that it is a military target and thus an attack is not an act of terrorism.

That's the short version ina nutshell. Whether you agree with me or not, you understand my point a little bit. This reflects not on the rightness or wrongness of Anders' actions, only on whether or not it is an act of terrorism. (Which I feel it is not.)

I left out a lot of stuff that I would add as supplemental evidence to make my pint better because I decided it probably wouldn't change anyone's opinions anyway.

Now that you have my thoughts feel free to argue with me if you wish...

Oh, and let us all hope for more Andersy goodness. And thank you Miri for the kitten pic, it made me happy. *fistbump*

Your arguments are well-founded. I wouldn't worry about that person, they clearly came in here with their mind made up to be upset. It's pretty obvious (at least to me) that you're not preaching the "slaughter of church-goers" here.

[DeaHamlet]

Thief-of-Hearts wrote...

Batteries wrote...

you can warn the woman three times but she does not leave. I don't like that she died and would of stopped it if I could but she had plenty of heads up from Hawke and Seb, Hawke again and then finally by the city's knight captain to leave. She chose not to. I won't say she had it coming but she knew it was coming.

honestly i still can't see that, even with the three warnings we see as players.  she's probably had attempts on her life before but i still dont think that's good enough reason to just up and leave. i actually applaud her decision to stick by people who needed her even in the face of danger. just look at kirkwall - its full of dispicable people and i think she actually has dialouge about how it wouldn't be the first time someone has threatened her. what's one more threat? even if it happened to be the one that was made good it doesn't matter. her death isn't going to stop the chantry from exsisting - it going to end up serving as a symbol about the chantry who back down in the face of danger at the hands of an evil mage (which, btw is not what she wanted in the first place).

Can people stop saying crap about how she helped people?
Anders did more for the poor and helpless than the whole chantry list of sisters combined.
And the way Elthina is slobbering all over my Hawke because Hawke's grandma was such a lady... ICK makes me sick.
Just stop saying that she helped her flock and whatnot.
She was useless.
I will tell her a million times over that she is useless, because that's what she is. In every circumstance.

I had to kill a great man who was stuck in a foreign city far from his people... because she wouldn't do anything about Petrice and her crap other than to promote her from sister to mother.  OMG, bad judgement much?  Yes, I told her about Petrice BEFORE the Viscount's son was killed and Elthina did zero.  Nada.  Nothing.
Who does she help? NOBODY, that's who.
A poor innocent boy was killed because Elthina couldn't be arsed to do anything.
Meredith and Elthina were so incompetenent a rapist was making mages tranquil and abusing them right under their nose.
Did you see anyone helping the poor in Darktown? Any sister?  Did you see any sister doing anything other than wondering about and asking for money?  No, you did not.

I'm supposed to feel sorry for her?  When she talks with such arrogance and airs, like omg who is she and that her flock need her.  What flock?  The rich?  She could well afford to live in a huge place in Hightown while everyone else suffered and starved.  
When asked for help with the poor, Meredith and Elthina both refused to help anyone or give any money.

I asked Elthina each playthrough to do SOMETHING.  Anything.  Say something.  
And every single time nothing but arrogance and distrust for mages.

No, I don't feel bad for Elthina.  She signed her own death certificate.  Either by Anders' hand or the Divine's hand, death was her future.  That's what she decided.  To die with the flock that she did nothing for.  She decided for all those sisters and mothers that they need to stay in Kirkwall and DIE when the Divine sent an army to wipe out Kirkwall.
Elthina's death did not move a tear from me.  
I wanted Meredith's head on a pike for Anders, I did not wish such venemous death for Elthina.  I wish I could have slapped her a few times, that's true.  

But sorry for the death she signed herself and her flock to anyway?  Neah, no way.  And each playthrough and discussion with her just reinforces that opinion.
With her decisions, she signed up all her flock for martyrdom.  Without a second thought.  And didn't think even for a second of her flock when she was warned that something was going to happen.  Only that nobody would dare raise a hand against the Grand Cleric.  BS.  The Divine would have had no qualms.  And Anders didn't either.

It'd be nice to excuse the whole ordeal with stupidity, but I'm not giving her that benefit.  She simply didn't want to go against her own people, even if her own people were on the side of wrong.  Coward.

[sassperella]

Wow that guy a few pages back... just wow.

Anyway just my few thoughts on mages.
David Gaider has stated categorically they are not slaves which is fair enough but....

Mages are taken from their families at a young age 6-12 are the ages I've heard. They are taken by the templars in chains. Can you imagine what that would do to a child of that age? Dragged from the safety of your family, shackled and taken away crying and screaming by faceless men in metal suits who probably curse you, call you names and maybe even physically abuse you. They are then never allowed contact with their family again.

Mages are then locked up and not allowed to go out as they are taught to control their skills (apprentices can't leave the tower). Now, if this were more like a boarding school where they were allowed certain freedoms and be allowed to visit their families or have their families visit it wouldn't be so bad, but they've been completely cut off from their families through an accident of birth. Having struggled through their training, their final exams involve having them thrown at a demon and failure means you're cut down by templars having been possessed. Should anyone at the Circle decide you may have trouble passing your final exams, you don't get extra tuition instead they lobotomise you.

Mages are then refused any form of normal relationship. They can't marry, they can't have any form of long term relationship and should they have children they are taken away from them at their birth as happened to Wynne. They are not allowed to fall in love - Anders suggests that if they do then the templars use it against them.

To varying degrees in the circles, the templars abuse their power and their charges, including rape, to the point of making some commit suicide (Anders quote about the most common way a mage dies is by their own hand)

Add to all this Cullen's comment that you can't treat mages like people a view that seems to be held by many - most Thedans don't seem to regard mages as people at all, just monsters to be feared - and I can completely understand why mages want to rebel and demand freedom.

While there is the need to protect the public from harm and it can be argued that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, mages are still human beings with feelings and needs and they are being denied simple human rights by locking them away, tearing them from their families, making them live in fear of the harrowing then subjecting them to abuse and hatred.

Violence is a last resort, but seriously what does anyone expect when you take a large group of abused children with power, lock them up and treat them like they are subhuman, deny them any form of normal social adjustment then expect them to just accept it. There will always come a time when that oppressed minority will strike back, and given the power mages have it was always going to be bloody.

Sorry about the long post and lack of obvious grammer, but it's always annoyed me that a lot of people forget what mages go through even in the more relaxed circles like Fereldan.

Modifié par sassperella, 11 avril 2011 - 04:13 .

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

dreadpiratesnugglecakes wrote...

thebrute7 wrote...

I have finally come to the conclusion that Ander's destruction of the Chantry was not in fact terrorism... I'll have to write out my rationale for you guys later so you can understand my thoughts on it.

Plus I hate Elthina...

Oh, a manifesto justifying the slaughter of church goers?  Can't wait to read it.  Does it start with 'They had it coming!!' ?

This is a really silly argument but I have to weigh in because I'm really tired of the misrepresentations I'm seeing.

The mages are NOT enslaved. They are not forced to do labor against their will; they are confined, yes, per Chantry law, but they are allowed to study and develop their talent as long as they abide by chantry rules and prove themselves through a harrowing.

Yes, the Kirkwall mages are being unfairly abused; that is a problem with local management; blowing up the chantry and starting a war accomplishes what exactly? Mages are free. Ok, so what happens when mages are free to do as they please? Hello Tevinter Imperium and slavery of non mages.

One point so many people seem to be forgetting while donning their Che tshirts and putting templars up against the wall is that Mages are in circles for a reason. All of Thedas was enslaved under the Tevinter Imperium; blood of thousands on the hands of mages for blood magic rituals..ringing any bells there?

Left to their own devices, Mages don't seem to like to live and let live. Remember Uldred? He wiped out dozens when he was just locked up in a tower. Think of the damage he could have done in Denerim. People don't want mages free...not because Mages are bad people and need to be kept down but because they have the POTENTIAL to go very bad and kill or ENSLAVE thousands, or hundreds of thousands.

Anders may just want to live and play lightning vibrator tag at the local brothel, but lots of his brethern want a return of the Tevinter Imperium..and that's why they are quarantined. They are dangerous through no fault of their own. So please, stop the self righteous twaddle; stop the 'divine mother had it coming because she wouldn't free the mages'.
Anders' action in blowing up the Chantry was both out of character and an act of lunacy. His end game was to start a war..ok, could have been accomplished without the death of innocent people. A Grey Warden and a soldier would have found another way. But that aside, he is starting a conflict that has no good ending. Thedas is not clamoring for mages to be free because they don't want to go back to the Tevinter days; Mages who have been freeing themselves have a bad habit of turning to blood magic and doing bad things..so what happens when you take the muzzle off of all them? Screw everybody else?

Fact is, you don't know what they'll do.  You're all caught up in your 'stick it to the establishment' bullcr*p'.  Haven't heard much about the blood mages and what they did when they got free.  Didn't see them freeing anybody; didn't see them doing much except murdering people.  But I guess that's ok..it isn't murder if a mage does it cuz they're like oppressed and stuff.  So how much blood should be shed?  What are the mages owed?  Should they have their own country?  Maybe a few thousand slaves?

And what about the elves?  The elves only ever wanted their land back; they didn't enslave anyone; didn't have an empire based on blood magic and slaughtering their fellow man..I have more compassion for the elves and would rather see them free than the spoiled little babies in their stupid circle towers. 

So save your thoughts on justifying murder.  I've laughed enough today.

[Inzhuna]

I stopped caring for Elthina when she said "Even an elf could be a Maker's instrument" (don't remember the quote exactly). You racist [censored]!

on the whole terrorist thing: The guy who ranted's got a few fair points to be honest, although he's going about it in a wrong way. Anders is a terrorist and what he did is despicable and there is no way to justify it, for me. Violence will never bring stable, positive change. All he did was reinforce the system. But Anders is so broken and lost by that point he sees it as justice.

Modifié par Inzhuna, 11 avril 2011 - 04:19 .

[Ryzaki]

Inzhuna wrote...

I stopped caring for Elthina when she said "Even an elf could be a Maker's instrument" (don't remember the quote exactly). You racits [censored]!

She says the same thing about a dwarf. 

ugh. I wanted to backhand her for my Aeducan. 

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

But yeah, I don't hate Elthina. She's like any priest, completely useless in a world full of nobs.

And she did help people. Know for a fact they fed orphans.

[sassperella]

Ryzaki wrote...

Inzhuna wrote...

I stopped caring for Elthina when she said "Even an elf could be a Maker's instrument" (don't remember the quote exactly). You racits [censored]!

She says the same thing about a dwarf. 

ugh. I wanted to backhand her for my Aeducan. 

And a mage. She seems to look down on anyone that isn't one of 'her flock' for which I read Kirkwall nobles.

[sassperella]

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

But yeah, I don't hate Elthina. She's like any priest, completely useless in a world full of nobs.

And she did help people. Know for a fact they fed orphans.

hmm which orphans though? Kirkwallian only I bet. It seems that bloodmage in darktown was feeding most of the Fereldan ones.

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

sassperella wrote...

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

But yeah, I don't hate Elthina. She's like any priest, completely useless in a world full of nobs.

And she did help people. Know for a fact they fed orphans.

hmm which orphans though? Kirkwallian only I bet. It seems that bloodmage in darktown was feeding most of the Fereldan ones.

It doesn't specify. They just say orphans and I'm not about to fill the rest in with conjecture.

[Kawamura]

Ryzaki wrote...

Inzhuna wrote...

I stopped caring for Elthina when she said "Even an elf could be a Maker's instrument" (don't remember the quote exactly). You racits [censored]!

She says the same thing about a dwarf. 

ugh. I wanted to backhand her for my Aeducan. 

Mage beats elf, though.

Woohoo!

[GailRana]

sassperella wrote...

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

But yeah, I don't hate Elthina. She's like any priest, completely useless in a world full of nobs.

And she did help people. Know for a fact they fed orphans.

hmm which orphans though? Kirkwallian only I bet. It seems that bloodmage in darktown was feeding most of the Fereldan ones.

And even if she did help some people, why does that exempt her from the fact that she knowingly let innocents (mages) be harmed? Innocents that she was in a position and had a responsibility to keep safe? Her other humanitarian actions don't really effect my opinion on how she handled the situation

[Celestria129]

Kolotosa wrote...

Celestria129 wrote...

*Looks at past couple pages of rantyness then looks at the thread title*
......THE CAKE IS A LIE!!!!!!!

<3 Want a sandwich?

........can it be an Anders Sandwich?

[sassperella]

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

sassperella wrote...

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

But yeah, I don't hate Elthina. She's like any priest, completely useless in a world full of nobs.

And she did help people. Know for a fact they fed orphans.

hmm which orphans though? Kirkwallian only I bet. It seems that bloodmage in darktown was feeding most of the Fereldan ones.

It doesn't specify. They just say orphans and I'm not about to fill the rest in with conjecture.

it's not really conjecture if you speak to the orphan boys in darktown in that quest near the end where you are hunting the three bloodmages, the bloodmage (I can't remember her name offhand) took them in and many others and fed them because they had nowhere else to go and they had nowhere to get food. You never seen any evidence of the chantry in darktown, you'd expect it to be filled with chantry workers helping out but there's not one. I'm not saying it doesn't happen but the evidence suggests that it doesn't.

Modifié par sassperella, 11 avril 2011 - 04:28 .