57020 réponses à ce sujet

[Addai]

RinjiRenee wrote...
Eh, I'm kind of rambling, but in the end, Anders, in all of his short-sightedness, wanted the immediate blame placed on himself.

As klarabella points out, Cass starts out on the assumption that Hawke is to blame.  She seems to believe Varric's story for whatever reason, but I'm sure she isn't alone in her assumptions.

I don't doubt that Anders wants to protect Hawke, in his f'ed up way, but I don't think that's actually what he's doing.  A reasonable person would be able to see that using someone as your accomplice and cover might not turn out well for them.

Modifié par Addai67, 18 mars 2011 - 06:27 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

Addai67 wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...
Eh, I'm kind of rambling, but in the end, Anders, in all of his short-sightedness, wanted the immediate blame placed on himself.

As klarabella points out, Cass starts out on the assumption that Hawke is to blame.  She seems to believe Varric's story for whatever reason, but I'm sure she isn't alone in her assumptions.

I don't doubt that Anders wants to protect Hawke, in his f'ed up way, but I don't think that's actually what he's doing.  A reasonable person would be able to see that using someone as your accomplice and cover might not turn out well for them.

Well that's just it.  Anders wasn't being very reasonable at the end.  He was scared and angry, and it's hard to be reasonable when you're like that.  Plus, add a bit of Vengeance into the mix.

[vivisekti0]

by HonestLies. Bawwwwwwwwwwwww

Modifié par vivisekti0, 18 mars 2011 - 06:33 .

[Hellosanta]

I heard somewhere that we can kill anders before he blow up the chantry ... is that true? i don't think it's true .. but .. it's worth to ask anyway 8D

[YamiSnuffles]

Addai67 wrote...

RinjiRenee wrote...
Eh, I'm kind of rambling, but in the end, Anders, in all of his short-sightedness, wanted the immediate blame placed on himself.

As klarabella points out, Cass starts out on the assumption that Hawke is to blame.  She seems to believe Varric's story for whatever reason, but I'm sure she isn't alone in her assumptions.

I don't doubt that Anders wants to protect Hawke, in his f'ed up way, but I don't think that's actually what he's doing.  A reasonable person would be able to see that using someone as your accomplice and cover might not turn out well for them.

But Cassandra blames Hawke for everything. She thinks Hawke went in the Deep Roads specifically for the idol. She thinks Hawke willfully incited the Qunari to war. Whether you or not you actually act as Anders accomplice, she blames you for that too. Hawke seems to get implicated in everything simply by being there. The fact is, Anders at least kept the blame on himself during the time it happened. What happened from there was out of everyone's hands.

Also, Anders wasn't exactly thinking clearly at that point.

Modifié par YamiSnuffles, 18 mars 2011 - 06:42 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

Hellosanta wrote...

I heard somewhere that we can kill anders before he blow up the chantry ... is that true? i don't think it's true .. but .. it's worth to ask anyway 8D

Nope.

[Hellosanta]

RinjiRenee wrote...

Hellosanta wrote...

I heard somewhere that we can kill anders before he blow up the chantry ... is that true? i don't think it's true .. but .. it's worth to ask anyway 8D

Nope.

yeah i thought so 

[Sialater]

Anders.... Anders... the path to hell is paved with good intentions.

You thought you were doing a good thing by helping your friend, Justice. And then.... you had to go and start a revolution.

His kind of fall is my favorite in fiction. Just never expected to be the LI to said fallen character.

[maselphie]

In regards to Anders and blame and leaving the Champion out of the ordeal ... Anders plainly says that "You're the Champion of Kirkwall", that we would be better to play that role and not help, and he only involves us after we are the Champion. (I don't know how long he planned this.) Which leads me to believe that me acting as the Champion is still very much part of his plan, since he was perfectly willing for me to get involved until the point of just outright saying what he's doing. Depending on if you kill him or not, it's selfish or not. He either trusts that you will kill him for the good of Kirkwall, or that you have the power to spare his life when the time comes. Perhaps Anders felt one way, and Justice felt the other. Either way, he knows you will make the decision, for some reason.

I don't think it was his intention for the Chantry to be blamed on us, BUT I'm willing to see that he might have, considering how much he used us to begin with, and considering how distinctly he tells us we must play our role.

He wasn't above blowing up a church or sacrificing himself for a greater cause -- what makes us think he would ever be above sacrificing us, too? "Drown us both in blood"? Since when did that have to mean OTHER people's blood? Hmmmm?

[catabuca]

@sia it's interesting, but the only 'fall' I see is the way Justice has consumed so much of Anders. That's the tragic part for me. I don't consider starting a revolution as a fall. Not at all. The only tragic thing I see is the way Anders had to sacrifice himself in the process. That's incredibly tragic.

I recognise not everyone feels the same as me on that count though, and that's cool.

[Celestria129]

Sialater wrote...

Anders.... Anders... the path to hell is paved with good intentions.

You thought you were doing a good thing by helping your friend, Justice. And then.... you had to go and start a revolution.

His kind of fall is my favorite in fiction. Just never expected to be the LI to said fallen character.

Agree:D i don't know why but i have always liked that quote

Modifié par Celestria129, 18 mars 2011 - 06:53 .

[Aeowyn]

catabuca wrote...

@sia it's interesting, but the only 'fall' I see is the way Justice has consumed so much of Anders. That's the tragic part for me. I don't consider starting a revolution as a fall. Not at all. The only tragic thing I see is the way Anders had to sacrifice himself in the process. That's incredibly tragic.

I recognise not everyone feels the same as me on that count though, and that's cool.

I agree with this. And I agree that "reasonable" is not what Anders is in Act 3. It's obvious that his struggle with Justice is consuming him.

[EnchantedEyes1]

nodice wrote...

EnchantedEyes1 wrote...

Also, Anders not only wanted to protect Hawke from blame from the others, but possibly from herself/himself.

Whether realistic or not, that was his intent as I understand it.

What do you mean?

I don't have the exact convo hand (I'm at work) but he says something to the effect that it would be worse if Hawke did agree with what he was doing.

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

...does anyone else see any a bit of nameless narrator dude and Tyler Durden in Anders and Justice?

That just occurred to me and now I cannot unsee.

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 18 mars 2011 - 06:57 .

[maselphie]

EnchantedEyes1 wrote...

I don't have the exact convo hand (I'm at work) but he says something to the effect that it would be worse if Hawke did agree with what he was doing.

Are you talking about when the PC can ask "why didn't you tell me? I might have understood." and he's like "what if you wanted to stop me, or worse, wanted to help?"

[leggywillow]

EnchantedEyes1 wrote...

nodice wrote...

EnchantedEyes1 wrote...

Also, Anders not only wanted to protect Hawke from blame from the others, but possibly from herself/himself.

Whether realistic or not, that was his intent as I understand it.

What do you mean?

I don't have the exact convo hand (I'm at work) but he says something to the effect that it would be worse if Hawke did agree with what he was doing.

You mean the talk right after the Chantry blows up?  Hawke can say "I might have understood if you'd only told me" and Anders can respond with "You might have tried to stop me, or worse, what if you wanted to help?"

EDIT: 'd by maselphie!

Modifié par leggywillow, 18 mars 2011 - 06:59 .

[mellifera]

Pseudocognition wrote...

...does anyone else see any a bit of nameless narrator dude and Tyler Durden in Anders and Justice?

That just occurred to me and now I cannot unsee.

Yeah. *brain breaks slightly*

[YamiSnuffles]

Eh, I still don't buy the nefarious Anders is just using Hawke the entire time argument. I think he planned on doing something and when Hawke came along he saw a potential ally. If he just wanted to use Hawke, I think he would have been much less argumentative and certainly wouldn't have constantly warned off a romantically inclined Hawke.

[Rinji the Bearded]

Pseudocognition wrote...

...does anyone else see any a bit of nameless narrator dude and Tyler Durden in Anders and Justice?

That just occurred to me and now I cannot unsee.

Oh dear.

"The first rule of the Mage Underground -- do not talk about the Mage Underground."

[leggywillow]

Pseudocognition wrote...

...does anyone else see any a bit of nameless narrator dude and Tyler Durden in Anders and Justice?

That just occurred to me and now I cannot unsee.

  CANNOT UNSEE.

Although my sarcastic Lady Hawke is vaguely insane like Marla, so it may be fitting.

[maselphie]

Too bad those two could be separated. :'(

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

Fortunately Vengeance does not wind up in gaudy late nineties urban fashion. But he does get Anders off his butt to further a cause for better or worse. And ends up... wiping the slate clean, as it were.

I can't decide what applies more, film or book verson. Film version has an entirely too positive spin at the end, but book version Tyler is IIRC legitimately a figment of narrator's imagination.

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 18 mars 2011 - 07:06 .

[Rinji the Bearded]

Pseudocognition wrote...

Fortunately Vengeance does not wind up in gaudy late nineties urban fashion. But he does get Anders off his butt to further a cause for better or worse. And ends up... wiping the slate clean, as it were.

Yeah... that he does.  Love him or hate him for it, too.

[silver-crescent]

klarabella wrote...

silver-crescent wrote...
I just watched the end game dialogue (I teared up I admit it ) but he did seem very much fine (and sane). Thankfully.

For the moment. With the world in flames I doubt that's the end of Vengeance.

Well he does say he still wants to keep fighting of course, but he seems a lot more level headed. The way I see it Hawke's support/riendship/love keeps him sane. The Vengeance skill tree even mentions something of the sort. After all the worst vengeance moments only happen if you take the rivalry route AFAIK.

[Sialater]

catabuca wrote...

@sia it's interesting, but the only 'fall' I see is the way Justice has consumed so much of Anders. That's the tragic part for me. I don't consider starting a revolution as a fall. Not at all. The only tragic thing I see is the way Anders had to sacrifice himself in the process. That's incredibly tragic.

I recognise not everyone feels the same as me on that count though, and that's cool.

It's a fall in that I don't think what he did was justice.  It may have been necessary, but I don't think it was "just."