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[thebrute7]

phantomdragoness wrote...

Kawamura wrote...

Miri1984 wrote...



@thebrute7 I loved that article, but I kinda disagree with the assessment of
Anders being a High Fantasy character stuck in a low fantasy world. JUSTICE is
a high fantasy character and Anders is constantly struggling to bring him down
to reality. Still, I adored the article. Really insightful stuff.

I thought I remembered it mentioning that in a foot note.



Mmm. Low fantasy. I feel like I'm playing a snarkier Vimes.

I agree. Anders said his coexistence with Justice is a madness - it is in this
situation where the cliché: "the spirit made me do it" could be true.
But I believe it is becoming more difficult for Anders to resist, when although
it is thanks to Hawke he is gaining more control, he could not ignore the logic
of blowing up the Chantry. I find myself at a middle ground with Anders'
actions. The Chantry wasn't going to step in, they were just going to stand
back and let all hell break loose; Sebastian said the bravest thing one can do
in war is to stand back. I disagree, especially when an oppressed people are
suffering greatly, and turning to controversial means to survive. I was one of
those gamers who thought we were going to save everyone by one simple act, and
the next day everything would be sunshine and giggles. By the end of Act 3, I
was all "**** it" and just wanted to get Anders out of there.
However, I also strongly disagree with Anders' actions because it was not
justice - it was "removing the obstacle" to get him to his goal.
Anders will have to live with that reality for the rest of his life; justice
does make sense in your head, but if you try to act it out in the real world,
you may as well try shoving a square peg into a round hole. (Thanks Isabela for
bring up that justice/idea conversation.)

That Isabela/Anders banter literally made me stop in my tracks.  I literally sat there, staring at my computer screen for at least a minute before I started playing again.  Isabela said something profound...  *unbelieving silence*  *checks to see if someone divided by 0*  *back to unbelieving silence*

Top post - Here's some cuddly Andersy goodness for us

Modifié par thebrute7, 12 avril 2011 - 05:49 .

[Kawamura]

Isabela is very profound. I find she often has deeper thoughts than Ander or Sebastian. 

Modifié par Kawamura, 12 avril 2011 - 05:49 .

[Mistress Tasharra]

Ryzaki wrote...

I don't feel the "I can't fix this." was doing it right. That said it is personal preference.

I have to say I started having a vast emotional detachment on my second playthrough. Origins always makes me cry when Alistair kills the Archedemon, I always feel horrible when I have to kill Conner, I grin madly when I kick Loghain's behind, I scream at Howe when he shows up on the screen, I roll my eyes when Cailian speaks.

DA2 made me cry one time. And upon seeing that scene now...the only thing I can do is facepalm and scoff in disgust.  Anders rivalry path also pulled some sympathy strings (which were placed by bewilderness from him defaulting to the friendship path). 

DAO was far more emotional to me.

Oh I agree with that. Despite how many times I've played Origins there are ALWAYS scenes were I cry, laugh, feel sick, or want to punch a hole through my monitor.

(Cousland origin, I'm looking at you. I cry EVERYTIME. =.=)

I was (and am) for more emotionally evolved with my Warden and her story than I have been with Hawke and his. But, they are two very different games, and at the end of the day I realized you can't really compare them. You have to enjoy each for what it is.

:3

Modifié par Mistress Tasharra, 12 avril 2011 - 05:49 .

[thebrute7]

I had emotional moments in both games... I feel like I am equally attached to my Warden and Hawke.

[Miri1984]

Nope, I don't disagree with Anders' actions at all. I've been there before on this thread, but honestly, it was a brutal act but one my Hawke completely agreed with. Didn't LIKE it, but completely agreed with it. And I also don't put the blame for it squarely on Justice's shoulders. I'm pretty sure the idea came from both of them, even on the Rivalry path, even if the execution on the rival path was all Justice.

What I see it as Anders' (and Justice) being fed up with the "oppress the few for the good of the many" grey area argument that had been used for centuries to keep the status quo regarding mages. He's trying to force the world more towards the black and white.

[thebrute7]

Miri1984 wrote...

Nope, I don't disagree with Anders' actions at all. I've been there before on this thread, but honestly, it was a brutal act but one my Hawke completely agreed with. Didn't LIKE it, but completely agreed with it. And I also don't put the blame for it squarely on Justice's shoulders. I'm pretty sure the idea came from both of them, even on the Rivalry path, even if the execution on the rival path was all Justice.

What I see it as Anders' (and Justice) being fed up with the "oppress the few for the good of the many" grey area argument that had been used for centuries to keep the status quo regarding mages. He's trying to force the world more towards the black and white.

I want to believe in more black and white.  Sometimes things are grey, but sometimes black and white is better than grey.  Maybe I just can't let go of my belief in moral absolutes... amend that, I CAN'T let go of my beleief in moral absolutes.

[Kawamura]

thebrute7 wrote...

I had emotional moments in both games... I feel like I am equally attached to my Warden and Hawke.

Oh, yeah, I'm totes attatched to both games and main characters. In different ways.

I didn't lose sleep over DA:O. Outside of a few choices, I knew what I was doing. I was the hero, and I knew how to fix the world. And then it started getting... dark. And I felt uncomfortable, but I still kinda knew what I was doing.

DA2 is... different. I'm emotionally attached, but in a miserable sort of way.

[Ryzaki]

Mistress Tasharra wrote...
Oh I agree with that. Despite how many times I've played Origins there are ALWAYS scenes were I cry, laugh, feel sick, or want to punch a hole through my monitor.

(Cousland origin, I'm looking at you. I cry EVERYTIME. =.=)

I was (and am) for more emotionally evolved with my Warden and her story than I have been with Hawke and his. But, they are two very different games, and at the end of the day I realized you can't really compare them. You have to enjoy each for what it is.

:3

Oh god yes. Leaving papa Cousland behind... 

And then that bastard Howe has the nerve. <_< I'll play the man and shove this sword right down your throat you sick bastard. 

Ah true. I do love DA2. I just...I don't know DAO felt more like an experience and warped me into it's world. In DA2 I feel like a spectactor. And nothing really matters because it all ends up the same. 

[thebrute7]

OK I want more cuddly everyone is kissing everyone now. Deepness before bed is not good for happy anders dreams.
by Didiher

[Kawamura]

Ryzaki wrote...

In DA2 I feel like a spectactor. And nothing really matters because it all ends up the same. 

I would say that's actually part of the reason I like it. I feel hopeless most of the time.

[Ryzaki]

Kawamura wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

In DA2 I feel like a spectactor. And nothing really matters because it all ends up the same. 

I would say that's actually part of the reason I like it. I feel hopeless most of the time.

Heh. Defintely subjective. 

I love being a BDH. I can't do that in normal life. 

I like having the power to change lives for better or worse soley on what I do. I like being beloved or feared on *my* actions. I like being the one leading change. 

I don't like playing second fiddle. And that's exactly what Hawke is at the end of the day. Second fiddle. 


Just. Ugh. The whole game was really ugh for me. If not for Anders and Varric I'd be done. 

To expand on this

I think Hawke's voice played a part in the disconnect. It wasn't my character. It was an outline of *a* character.  To me anyway. 

I say my Hawke. But that carries no where near as much weight as my Warden. my Warden feels like mine, my creation, built from the top down by my hand. Yes I have confines but I shaped his/her voice, personality, a bit of his/her background, motivations, worldview.

With Hawke I feel a great portion of that is already set in stone. Which is a different kind of story and one that I don't particularly enjoy roleplaying.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 12 avril 2011 - 06:09 .

[phantomdragoness]

thebrute7 wrote...

Miri1984 wrote...

Nope, I don't disagree with Anders' actions at all. I've been there before on this thread, but honestly, it was a brutal act but one my Hawke completely agreed with. Didn't LIKE it, but completely agreed with it. And I also don't put the blame for it squarely on Justice's shoulders. I'm pretty sure the idea came from both of them, even on the Rivalry path, even if the execution on the rival path was all Justice.

What I see it as Anders' (and Justice) being fed up with the "oppress the few for the good of the many" grey area argument that had been used for centuries to keep the status quo regarding mages. He's trying to force the world more towards the black and white.

I want to believe in more black and white.  Sometimes things are grey, but sometimes black and white is better than grey.  Maybe I just can't let go of my belief in moral absolutes... amend that, I CAN'T let go of my beleief in moral absolutes.

"It's so much easier to see the world in black and white? Grey? I don't know what to do with grey." -Garrus, Mass Effect 2


Grey is a very difficult category to understand because...simply...we can't understand it? I don't know.

99.9% of me agrees with what Anders did. The one percent is just screaming at Justice's twisted definition of justice. Sorry, English Major. XD


Edit: Oh, and DA2 made me cry more than DAO! So many things were out of my control, and I also can't help but place myself in the game emotionally - I do that with any book or game.

Modifié par phantomdragoness, 12 avril 2011 - 06:03 .

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

I didn't cry at all during Origins. Take all points in Persuasion and you can get a pretty damn happy ending. Then again I didn't roleplay as much, without a voiced PC I feel like its just a puppet to relay my decisions instead of a character. That's just me tho. I think the most upset I got at Origins was when Alistair dumped my warden and that was a quick enough fix with a last save reload... and comparatively I wasn't that upset.

DA2? I stayed up ridiculously late like ripping my hair out and sniffling and bawwing and ranting to my friend in the car and... yeah.

Thread moves so fastttt

Modifié par Pseudocognition, 12 avril 2011 - 06:08 .

[Mistress Tasharra]

Kawamura wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

In DA2 I feel like a spectactor. And nothing really matters because it all ends up the same. 

I would say that's actually part of the reason I like it. I feel hopeless most of the time.

I'd have to agree with this.

I felt far more connected to my Warden. The best way to describe, I suppose, is that I was able to see the world through my Warden's eyes, and despite the darkness that she faced, I knew we would get out of it, we had to. There was that rising hope.

With Hawke, I find it harder to see the world through his eyes. There's a disconnect. That said though, the sense of everything spirialing out of control, the hopelessness and the eventual realization that "no, we won't get of this; it can't be fixed", there's something about that which is appealing, at least to me.

A better way to explain it, I suppose, is that with Hawke, I feel more like that inner voice, nudging him in the right direction, whatever that direction is. And Maker knows, it isn't always right.

I don't think that makes sense, but there you go. XD

[Kawamura]

Ryzaki wrote...

Kawamura wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

In DA2 I feel like a spectactor. And nothing really matters because it all ends up the same. 

I would say that's actually part of the reason I like it. I feel hopeless most of the time.

Heh. Defintely subjective. 

I love being a BDH. I can't do that in normal life. 

I like having the power to change lives for better or worse soley on what I do. I like being beloved or feared on *my* actions. I like being the one leading change. 

I don't like playing second fiddle. And that's exactly what Hawke is at the end of the day. Second fiddle. 


Just. Ugh. The whole game was really ugh for me. If not for Anders and Varric I'd be done. 

That is probably true.

.___.

I like games best of all where it turns out I'm not the hero. I mean, even the complaint that there's no big, leading story, no huge bad guy to fight that you know you're going to fight the whole time... I like that. I like feeling like I accidentally fell into problem. I like feeling that my Hawke isn't a hero, he's just a guy that happened to be in the chaos and he -- survived. And sometimes that was accidental, and he certainly didn't mean for it to happen.

The, er, being in the chaos. Not the surviving.

I like second fiddle. I like being a supporting character. I like not winning at the end of the day, but cutting my losses. Those are the stories that really stick with me.

[leggywillow]

Pseudocognition wrote...

I didn't cry at all during Origins. Take all points in Persuasion and you can get a pretty damn happy ending. Then again I didn't roleplay as much, without a voiced PC I feel like its just a puppet to relay my decisions instead of a character. That's just me tho. I think the most upset I got at Origins was when Alistair dumped my warden and that was a quick enough fix with a last save reload.

DA2? I stayed up ridiculously late like ripping my hair out and sniffling and bawwing and ranting to my friend in the car and... yeah.

Same here.  DA2 had more of an emotional punch for me because so much control was taken out of the PC's hands.  I'm pretty used to being a ridiculous demi-god in videogames, but I could relate so much more to Hawke because she wasn't one.

The only time I cried in Origins was during my Dalish elf's funeral.  That was sad, and I probably RPed her the most.  She was a lot like Hawke in that I RPed her as feeling powerless and thrust into a chaotic world beyond her control.  One of my favorite playthroughs for certain.  Of course, a big part of why I cried is because Alistair sounded so sad at her funeral, and I could just imagine how devastated he was, knowing that he dumped her and she died believing he never really loved her.  ;____;

Anyway.  That was a bit off-topic.  Basically, Origins and DA2 both packed an emotional punch for me in the first playthrough and subsequent plays.

[Sjofn]

Ryzaki wrote...

I have to say I started having a vast emotional detachment on my second playthrough. Origins always makes me cry when Alistair kills the Archedemon, I always feel horrible when I have to kill Conner, I grin madly when I kick Loghain's behind, I scream at Howe when he shows up on the screen, I roll my eyes when Cailian speaks.

DA2 made me cry one time. And upon seeing that scene now...the only thing I can do is facepalm and scoff in disgust. Anders rivalry path also pulled some sympathy strings (which were placed by bewilderness from him defaulting to the friendship path).

DAO was far more emotional to me.

Alistair killing the archdemon is extremely sad when he pulls the "lol im doin it cya," but it made me rage how no one cares during the little afterward. The only ones who even mention it happened are Anora (!) and Wynne. It made me angry, and it felt totally half-assed, rather than intentionally tragic.

DA2 never made me cry (but then, DA:O never did either), but I felt both more and less emotionally involved. The romances don't quite pull me in like DA:O's, for example, but I felt far, far, far more emotionally drained at the end of my first DA2 playthrough than my first DA:O playthrough, and I didn't even take Morrigan's cop-out offer, I killed myself (I had romanced Zevran, so Alistair only offered to do it, rather than forced the issue). I think because DA:O still ends on a triumph with a pretty decent sense of closure, wheras DA2 is more like "man we are screwed, TUNE IN NEXT TIME."

DA:O has a lot of third, "winning" options for its choices, and I think that actually hurts it from an emotional standpoint. I can kill Connor or Isolde, but I don't have to. I can annul Fereldan's circle, but I don't have to. I can murder the elves or werewolves, but I don't have to. The dwarf choice is the only one without a third way, and if you don't actually care about dwarves (I do, because I love dwarves, but a lot of people don't!), it doesn't matter even a tiny bit who is on that throne.

DA2 might've whiplashed back too far from that, though, as it just makes everyone except Hawke (and probably Varric and Aveline) look completely childish and insane. There probably needs to be a medium between the two. Because DA:O had too many cop-outs from decisions that would've otherwise been hard (Redcliffe is the very best example of this), but DA2 gets a little too CHOO CHOO PLOT TRAIN LEAVING THE STATION.

[Ryzaki]

Kawamura wrote...
That is probably true.

.___.

I like games best of all where it turns out I'm not the hero. I mean, even the complaint that there's no big, leading story, no huge bad guy to fight that you know you're going to fight the whole time... I like that. I like feeling like I accidentally fell into problem. I like feeling that my Hawke isn't a hero, he's just a guy that happened to be in the chaos and he -- survived. And sometimes that was accidental, and he certainly didn't mean for it to happen.

The, er, being in the chaos. Not the surviving.

I like second fiddle. I like being a supporting character. I like not winning at the end of the day, but cutting my losses. Those are the stories that really stick with me.

Probably? You doubt it's personal preference? 

They don't stick with me though. They bore me. Not winning at the end of the day and cutting my losses is something I do every single day. I don't want to do it in my games as well. The story felt disconnected, many events pointless and Hawke staying in Kirkwall felt forced. (to me anyway). 

[Mistress Tasharra]

Pseudocognition wrote...

I didn't cry at all during Origins. Take all points in Persuasion and you can get a pretty damn happy ending. Then again I didn't roleplay as much, without a voiced PC I feel like its just a puppet to relay my decisions instead of a character. That's just me tho. I think the most upset I got at Origins was when Alistair dumped my warden and that was a quick enough fix with a last save reload.

DA2? I stayed up ridiculously late like ripping my hair out and sniffling and bawwing and ranting to my friend in the car and... yeah.

Thread moves so fastttt

Don't get me wrong, there were times in DAII were I had emotional connection, it just wasn't in the same sense.

Let me put it this way. There were decisions, scenes, and events in DAII that I'm still dwelling on. Emotionally distraught. Hell, I can't even start a new game without aplogising to Carver because I know what's going to happen, and it feels like it's my fault because I can't fix it.

It's actually transfered over to Origins and Awakening as well. I loaded up Awakening to go over some dialogue, took one look at my party of Anders and Justice, and couldn't stop apologising to my monitor. That said, I think that also comes from the connection I have to my Warden.

Because of how I played the game, Anders, Justice, the chaos of DAII? That can all be laid at my Warden's feet if I look back.

I just didn't feel emotionally connected to Hawke, but I'm the opposite of you in that regard. Because Hawke is voiced, for me, there's less of a connection. :3

Warden's parents die? *Bawls*
Hawke's mother is murdered and has her head grafted on to this undead corpse bride? Yeah, that kind of sucks.

Warden has to convince her lover to have sex with another woman to save both their lives? *Disgust*
Hawke's lover destroys the Chantry, murders the Grand Cleric and various innocents, and causes the world to burn? Oh well.

@.@

Edit: I do love the contrast though. My Warden has the Hero, the saviour. Hawke... he mean to get caught up in this, it just happened, and he was forced to make decisions that no man should. He wasn't a hero. In the eyes of the world, he's just as much a monster as Anders.

That's my take on it, at least.

Modifié par Mistress Tasharra, 12 avril 2011 - 06:20 .

[ladyofpayne]

TripLight wrote...

Talk about a burning gaze *fans herself*

By SmaiLikia07

My MHawke haed choice- Anders\\Fenris.

[Ryzaki]

Sjofn wrote...
Alistair killing the archdemon is extremely sad when he pulls the "lol im doin it cya," but it made me rage how no one cares during the little afterward. The only ones who even mention it happened are Anora (!) and Wynne. It made me angry, and it felt totally half-assed, rather than intentionally tragic.

DA2 never made me cry (but then, DA:O never did either), but I felt both more and less emotionally involved. The romances don't quite pull me in like DA:O's, for example, but I felt far, far, far more emotionally drained at the end of my first DA2 playthrough than my first DA:O playthrough, and I didn't even take Morrigan's cop-out offer, I killed myself (I had romanced Zevran, so Alistair only offered to do it, rather than forced the issue). I think because DA:O still ends on a triumph with a pretty decent sense of closure, wheras DA2 is more like "man we are screwed, TUNE IN NEXT TIME."

DA:O has a lot of third, "winning" options for its choices, and I think that actually hurts it from an emotional standpoint. I can kill Connor or Isolde, but I don't have to. I can annul Fereldan's circle, but I don't have to. I can murder the elves or werewolves, but I don't have to. The dwarf choice is the only one without a third way, and if you don't actually care about dwarves (I do, because I love dwarves, but a lot of people don't!), it doesn't matter even a tiny bit who is on that throne.

DA2 might've whiplashed back too far from that, though, as it just makes everyone except Hawke (and probably Varric and Aveline) look completely childish and insane. There probably needs to be a medium between the two. Because DA:O had too many cop-outs from decisions that would've otherwise been hard (Redcliffe is the very best example of this), but DA2 gets a little too CHOO CHOO PLOT TRAIN LEAVING THE STATION.

Yeah the Alistair moment is very powerful until you get into the Chamber. Then the rest of your party look likedouches. 

Though the US funeral scene always moves me to tears. Especially with my self sacrificing good guy. (who romanced Zev as well.  ) 

I never understand the "OMG YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE A THIRD OPTION BECAUSE I DON'T WANT ONE." attitude (not saying you're doing it but still.) who cares if someone else enjoys their game? I never take the redcliffe third option. I don't complain that it's there. But I think it's ridculously out of character for my people to do it so I don't. 

The werewolf thing though I do take the third option on that. Mostly because the thought of having Zatherian get rid of his hatred made a very powerful scene to me. That said I don't always pick it because "OH THIS IS THE THIRD OPTION MUST TAKE." I take it if it suits my PC. Some of my PCs it doesn't suit them. So they don't take it. 

The same with the DR. As long as the third option makes some logical sense. (Though the Zatherien one was pushing it.) I don't care. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 12 avril 2011 - 06:18 .

[Kawamura]

Ryzaki wrote...

Kawamura wrote...
That is probably true.

.___.

I like games best of all where it turns out I'm not the hero. I mean, even the complaint that there's no big, leading story, no huge bad guy to fight that you know you're going to fight the whole time... I like that. I like feeling like I accidentally fell into problem. I like feeling that my Hawke isn't a hero, he's just a guy that happened to be in the chaos and he -- survived. And sometimes that was accidental, and he certainly didn't mean for it to happen.

The, er, being in the chaos. Not the surviving.

I like second fiddle. I like being a supporting character. I like not winning at the end of the day, but cutting my losses. Those are the stories that really stick with me.

Probably? You doubt it's personal preference? 

They don't stick with me though. They bore me. Not winning at the end of the day and cutting my losses is something I do every single day. I don't want to do it in my games as well. The story felt disconnected, many events pointless and Hawke staying in Kirkwall felt forced. (to me anyway). 

That it's not for you, yes?

I guess I lucked out. I never felt disconnected from the story. Okay, that's not true. A few times, for example, that whole silly "i WANT YOU TO STAY WITH ME UNTIL YOU DIE" line, but most of the time, I was pretty connected. I was playing a guy that was frustated and generally trying to avoid problems and getting sucked back in. I like losing in my stories. Even in DA:O, I felt like I lost because because my character got played (by Irving, by the Wardens, by Morrigan and Flemeth, by Alistair).

So far, the Dragon Age games have been like -- laws of thermodynamics: you can't win, you can only break even, and you can't even break even.

Modifié par Kawamura, 12 avril 2011 - 06:19 .

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

I could send Alistair to sleep with Morrigan a few dozen times, watch him run off to kill the Archdemon at the cost of his life, exile him, betray him, viciously stab him in the face if that was an option, and probably not be as moved.

DA2 (and Anders I suppose) ruined me. In a good way.

The only thing worse (in a good way) than Anders is the knowledge that if the Warden romanced Zev and dies, Zevran turns down sex with Isabela. That is sad beyond words.

[Ryzaki]

Kawamura wrote...
That it's not for you, yes?

I guess I lucked out. I never felt disconnected from the story. Okay, that's not true. A few times, for example, that whole silly "i WANT YOU TO STAY WITH ME UNTIL YOU DIE" line, but most of the time, I was pretty connected. I was playing a guy that was frustated and generally trying to avoid problems and getting sucked back in. I like losing in my stories. Even in DA:O, I felt like I lost because because my character got played (by Irving, by the Wardens, by Morrigan and Flemeth, by Alistair).

So far, the Dragon Age games have been like -- laws of thermodynamics: you can't win, you can only break even, and you can't even break even.

Ah. I thought you meant that some people personally prefer types of stories like DAO over DA2. But yeah...DA2 failed to really grip me. DAO took my heart out and laughed while stomping on it. I could have a sunshine and roses ending. But being the lover of tragedy I am (and my utter disgust of Morrigan) I was always a little torn by the end decisions. Always. I would ponder making Alistair king for hours. (same with hardening him). By the end of DA2 I was pretty much "Is this done yet? Or is a bridge gonna drop on Hawke's head just to screw with him some more? His life couldn't possibly suck anymore...but I'm sure BW can't wait to prove me wrong." and I was wondering why the heck didn't my Hawke just do a "screw this I'm outta here." yet. (I had a third option but couldn't take it? Bull. Only makes sense with a mage Hawke). 

Oh god that line.  My aggressive Hawke saying that lead to just a giant facepalm while I cringed at the cheese. Then there's Hawke's "TELL ME WHY?" to Fenris. So much cheese. "What about love?" To Isabela. Ugh. Now I'm thinking of all the cheesy romance lines. 

Heh. Some of my characters felt played. Some of them took the "Screw this I'm outta here." view And some didn't give a damn. I loved that. I never felt played by Alistair tough. I saw that coming a mile away.  I'm surprised people didn't. 

And yeah you really can't win in DAO. And even when you do win you've probably lost in some other way. You just don't realize it yet. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 12 avril 2011 - 06:27 .

[Kawamura]

Pseudocognition wrote...

I could send Alistair to sleep with Morrigan a few dozen times, watch him run off to kill the Archdemon at the cost of his life, exile him, betray him, viciously stab him in the face if that was an option, and probably not be as moved.

DA2 (and Anders I suppose) ruined me. In a good way.

The only thing worse (in a good way) than Anders is the knowledge that if the Warden romanced Zev and dies, Zevran turns down sex with Isabela. That is sad beyond words.

Is it almost made up by the fact that Issy seems to think Jethan and Zev are similar?