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[andrastepreserveme]

Camilladilla wrote...

silver-crescent wrote...

I think it's sad how a lot of the anti-Anders posts often mention stuff like "and to top it off they made him gay", or something along those lines. As depressing as that is, that aspect is also where a lot of the hate comes from, or at least it adds to it.

The video game nerd mentality these days kinda boggles me. The moment a character becomes even slightly unlikable it's "dude, where's my option to kill him off?".

In fairness though, I'd really like an opportunity to gank Sebastian. What can I say? I'm petty.

[nekhbet]

silver-crescent wrote...

Honestly I think Anders's mental health, or lack thereof, by end of the game was left to the player's interpretation.
Was he "shattered, mentally ill and not in control of himself"? I dunno, it certainly didn't feel that way in my playthroughs, especially when taking the friendship route. 

It's heavily implied in codex entries and some convos he's basically bat**** crazy at the end, either by being warped deeper together with Justice on the friendship route (changing his personality and making him single-minded), or slowly losing control of his body to Justice on the rivalry route (blackouts, split personality). It's far more visible in the rivalry route, though. The friendship insanity kinda creeps on you, because you Hawke are the enabler.

[shiba5]

mandamcmoo wrote...

Camilladilla wrote...

silver-crescent wrote...

I think it's sad how a lot of the anti-Anders posts often mention stuff like "and to top it off they made him gay", or something along those lines. As depressing as that is, that aspect is also where a lot of the hate comes from, or at least it adds to it.

The video game nerd mentality these days kinda boggles me. The moment a character becomes even slightly unlikable it's "dude, where's my option to kill him off?".

In fairness though, I'd really like an opportunity to gank Sebastian. What can I say? I'm petty.

I liked the fanfic where Anders/Justice killed him.

[Rinji the Bearded]

My Queen Cousland and my Mage Hawke would not get along very well, though the two of them did upset the order of things pretty awesomely. Hypocrisy EVERYWHERE.

[andrastepreserveme]

shiba5 wrote...

mandamcmoo wrote...

Camilladilla wrote...

silver-crescent wrote...

I think it's sad how a lot of the anti-Anders posts often mention stuff like "and to top it off they made him gay", or something along those lines. As depressing as that is, that aspect is also where a lot of the hate comes from, or at least it adds to it.

The video game nerd mentality these days kinda boggles me. The moment a character becomes even slightly unlikable it's "dude, where's my option to kill him off?".

In fairness though, I'd really like an opportunity to gank Sebastian. What can I say? I'm petty.

I liked the fanfic where Anders/Justice killed him.

Linkmenowplease?

[YamiSnuffles]

Camilladilla wrote...

Do you guys really think Anders would have refused to leave Kirkwall if Hawke decided s/he had enough of the crazy? The way it always works out for me is that I have Dissent near the end of Act 2 and he didn't have any qualms about running off then.

I know if my Hawke weren't so dead set on staying near Carver, he would have tied Anders up and dragged him onto the first boat to Ferelden.

Hmm, that's hard to say. While he had given up on the cause to some extent after Dissent, I don't know what his reaction to leaving would have been. Leaving would have meant abandoning Kirkwall when things were at its worst for the mages (the three years of Meredith making things worse and worse in the Circle). Deciding to up and leave at that point might have been enough to make Justice put his foot down, so to speak.

Oh, plus I forgot that my main Hawke had Bethany in the Circle, so no way she would have left things like that. Had that not been the case, and she had really wanted to leave... maybe Anders would have left? it's just hard for me to imagine him completely dropping his cause like that. Obviously he can still fight for mages elsewhere, but it seems like over the years his cause got really tangled in the plight of mages in Kirkwall in particular.

[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

Mistress Tasharra wrote...

shiba5 wrote...

My Warden and Hawke would have a catfight. My Warden secretly had the hots for Anders.

My Cousland also had a thing for Anders... and Nathaniel. She was a **** before she fell for (then married) Alistair.

Old habits die hard?

*Snorts* Oh, I can just imagine the snark fest that would occur at that meeting. Probably at the expense of Anders no less.

Poor Anders.

Good to know I'm not the only one who had a ****y Cousland warden. (I considered having her seduce Alistair, just for the throne...)

Could be worse! It could have been Amell!
Two very powerful cousins catfighting... And it gets worse if Hawke's a mage!

(Actually, with me it would be worse. Justice disaproves heavily of Hawke, but I always get high influence with him as the Warden. So Anders is really screwed, regardless of personal opinion. XD)

[SidheKate]

Loaded question: Why is it okay for Shepard to kill 300k innocent people to delay the inevitable attack, but Anders is a terrorist for killing about a dozen innocent people in the hopes of actually saving people? Is it because the player gets to do it? It isn't like there is a choice, it is mission failure if you don't - but because an NPC does it in DA, then it is endless hate and rage from some people? I'm still not saying Anders was right or wrong, and I totally expect people to come to their own conclusions, but why hate him?

My canon Hawke and Warden - my Warden would be so sad to see two of her very best friends merge into Vengeance. She adored Justice and Andres, and would generally approve of Hawke's attempts to help them. They're both tough girls that do the best they can under the circumstances, and understand that hindsight is 20/20. Or Hindsight is a belt, depending on how you look at it.

And I vote YES! for random PDA and *something* more to do with your partner once they move in.

Edit: My canon Hawke wouldn't leave her sister stuck in the Circle all alone.  Not for anything, anyone, ever.  She'd wanted to rip that building apart for six years, and was glad when she finally got the chance to.

Modifié par SidheKate, 12 avril 2011 - 02:11 .

[Mistress Tasharra]

nekhbet wrote...

silver-crescent wrote...

Honestly I think Anders's mental health, or lack thereof, by end of the game was left to the player's interpretation.
Was he "shattered, mentally ill and not in control of himself"? I dunno, it certainly didn't feel that way in my playthroughs, especially when taking the friendship route. 

It's heavily implied in codex entries and some convos he's basically bat**** crazy at the end, either by being warped deeper together with Justice on the friendship route (changing his personality and making him single-minded), or slowly losing control of his body to Justice on the rivalry route (blackouts, split personality). It's far more visible in the rivalry route, though. The friendship insanity kinda creeps on you, because you Hawke are the enabler.

And I think that's something that adds to the tragic factor, especially if you romanced Anders.

Regardless of what Hawke does, doesn't do, or say, s/he is going to lose Anders by Act III.

It doesn't matter if you kill him or let him live, if you're on the friendship or rivalry path. Hawke always loses Anders to Justice, either through a forceful takeover, or worse, by allowing them to merge further.

As much as I enjoy the frienship path, knowing that Hawke allowed it, knowingly allowed it to happen is... heartbreaking.

[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

shiba5 wrote...

mandamcmoo wrote...

Camilladilla wrote...

silver-crescent wrote...

I think it's sad how a lot of the anti-Anders posts often mention stuff like "and to top it off they made him gay", or something along those lines. As depressing as that is, that aspect is also where a lot of the hate comes from, or at least it adds to it.

The video game nerd mentality these days kinda boggles me. The moment a character becomes even slightly unlikable it's "dude, where's my option to kill him off?".

In fairness though, I'd really like an opportunity to gank Sebastian. What can I say? I'm petty.

I liked the fanfic where Anders/Justice killed him.

What fanfic!?

I must see it! 

[Threeparts]

Cousland and Hawke would be a bit wary of each other. Cousland had a similar sense of humour (although she held some things sacred, unlike Hawke) and was also a bit of a tomboy, but she was straight-up Lawful Good, and would disapprove of my Hawke's reckless, selfish, "it seemed like a good idea at the time," attitude. Hawke would constantly be after her to lighten up and have some fun.

Tabris and Hawke would raise some hell together, if Tabris could get over her "filthy human oppressors!" bias. Tabris was a lot more violent than Hawke, but Hawke would probably find it amusing, much like poking a wildcat with a stick.

Brosca would find Hawke's fecklessness and sense of humour irritating, but would probably put up with her because at least Hawke gets the job done. It might require a beating or two to keep Hawke in line, but Brosca would be sure she could whip the kid into shape eventually. Hawke would hate Brosca because she'd be constantly being told what to do and how to do it.

Amell would be terrified of her loud, smart-ass cousin at first, but would probably end up looking at Hawke as an older sister figure. Hawke would thoroughly enjoy embarrassing the **** out of her shy, virginal relative, especially if it involved having extra-loud sex with Amell's schoolgirl crush while she was within hearing range.

Modifié par Threeparts, 12 avril 2011 - 02:18 .

[silver-crescent]

nekhbet wrote...


It's heavily implied in codex entries and some convos he's basically bat**** crazy at the end, either by being warped deeper together with Justice on the friendship route (changing his personality and making him single-minded), or slowly losing control of his body to Justice on the rivalry route (blackouts, split personality). It's far more visible in the rivalry route, though. The friendship insanity kinda creeps on you, because you Hawke are the enabler.

His comments like "there's nothing you could tell me that I haven't told myself already", or "thank you for sparing my life, I'll try not to make such a mess of it this time", "this is not what I had expected" or the whole final dialogue certainly seemed sane to me. Did Justice change him? Yes. Is "old" Anders still there? Yes, especially apparent if you romance him. Is he bat**** crazy? I don't really think so to be honest. Not the most healthy person in Thedas of course, but he's no Meredith/Orsino either.

[Dunizel]

I think that considered how much Anders clinges to Hawke he would have left Kirkwall in the first years. But the more he stays, the more the abuses of templars and the crazyness of mages increase. Even if he wanted to, at that point, I suppose Vengeance influence would be that warped up that not even Hawke would be reason enough to leave.
But yeah, I suppose in the first years if Hawke just dragged him away and found him a cat, maybe things could have gone differently. I still believe somehow they could have fought for mages, just not blowing up Chantries maybe.

[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

Hey, if the Warden and Hawke got into a fight, who would win?
And what would Anders do?

Personally, I think my Warden would kick Hawke's a** to the void and back (she has a good reason to do it, too) and as for Anders... I'm not sure.
I mean, he loves Hawke, but the Warden is a friend, and was the first person to give him freedom from the circle (yay, conscription!).

Then there's Justice...

[SurelyForth]

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...
Good to know I'm not the only one who had a ****y Cousland warden. (I considered having her seduce Alistair, just for the throne...)

Could be worse! It could have been Amell!
Two very powerful cousins catfighting... And it gets worse if Hawke's a mage!

(Actually, with me it would be worse. Justice disaproves heavily of Hawke, but I always get high influence with him as the Warden. So Anders is really screwed, regardless of personal opinion. XD)

Skanky Couslands are the best Couslands. Mine didn't even do it for the throne! She just thought Alistair was so much fun to tease and...yeah. I think I've decided that, if she can't end up with Anders for the longterm, she at least had a torrid affair with him while she was his Warden-Commander.

It also adds a layer of tragedy to her leaving to go back to be Alistair's Chancellor, knowing that how badly things turn out for him with the her replacement.

Drama. Woe.

And Hawke v. Warden? It took my Warden one year to become a demi-god capable of taking down High Dragons on her own. Since she keeps up her training, including her spirit warrior crap, she's still an unstoppable force of nature. Hawke is a badass, but not that much of one.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 12 avril 2011 - 02:21 .

[Camilladilla]

SidheKate wrote...

Loaded question: Why is it okay for Shepard to kill 300k innocent people to delay the inevitable attack, but Anders is a terrorist for killing about a dozen innocent people in the hopes of actually saving people? Is it because the player gets to do it? It isn't like there is a choice, it is mission failure if you don't - but because an NPC does it in DA, then it is endless hate and rage from some people? I'm still not saying Anders was right or wrong, and I totally expect people to come to their own conclusions, but why hate him?

Shepard's situation was a needs of the many situation. While Anders wanted to incite what would essentially be chaos.

Also, just judging by the forums, Anders had a lot stacked against him already before the game came out. The chantry jenga was just the last straw (OHOHOHO) or a convenient excuse for people to vilify him for other reasons.

[Mistress Tasharra]

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...

Hey, if the Warden and Hawke got into a fight, who would win?
And what would Anders do?

Personally, I think my Warden would kick Hawke's a** to the void and back (she has a good reason to do it, too) and as for Anders... I'm not sure.
I mean, he loves Hawke, but the Warden is a friend, and was the first person to give him freedom from the circle (yay, conscription!).

Then there's Justice...

Oh hells, what a question.

Well, if I were to look at it... logically? (I love applying fantasy logic to a fantasy world!)

I think my Warden (who was a Champion/Spirit Warrior/Templar (but not really a Templar. She just believed that their skills would come in handy for dealing with Emmisarys or the occasional Blood Mage (and slept with Alistair to learn them))) would be able to defeat my Force/Blood Mage Hawke.

Someone with the combined skills of a Templar and a Spirit Warrior would give pause to any Mage, I think.

As for what Anders would do, that's a good question. My Warden was (is?) good friends with both Justice and Anders, but Hawke is Anders lover.

If anything, I think he'd try to stop it before it started, and if he couldn't, probably try and make sure the loser didn't die a horrible, horrible death.

But if he had to choose a side, I honestly don't really know. I imagine he'd stand with his lover, despite everything he and my Cousland have been through.

Shayce saved him from the Templars, brought him into the Wardens, stood by him when the Templars came for him, introduced him to Justice, and gave him Pounce.

Scylas stood by him even when the world went up in flames. They're lovers, and Scylas spared his life, turned on his friends (Seb/Fen) and kept on loving him even after he started a war.

Edit: And I just realized the similarities between my Warden's and Hawke's names. Lawl.

Shayce Cousland
Scylas Hawke

Apparently I like "S" names with "Y"s in them.

Modifié par Mistress Tasharra, 12 avril 2011 - 02:26 .

[sassperella]

silver-crescent wrote...

nekhbet wrote...


It's heavily implied in codex entries and some convos he's basically bat**** crazy at the end, either by being warped deeper together with Justice on the friendship route (changing his personality and making him single-minded), or slowly losing control of his body to Justice on the rivalry route (blackouts, split personality). It's far more visible in the rivalry route, though. The friendship insanity kinda creeps on you, because you Hawke are the enabler.

His comments like "there's nothing you could tell me that I haven't told myself already", or "thank you for sparing my life, I'll try not to make such a mess of it this time", "this is not what I had expected" or the whole final dialogue certainly seemed sane to me. Did Justice change him? Yes. Is "old" Anders still there? Yes, especially apparent if you romance him. Is he bat**** crazy? I don't really think so to be honest. Not the most healthy person in Thedas of course, but he's no Meredith/Orsino either.

Pretty much this. Especially down the friendship path I got the impression that Anders knew what he was doing and was willing to be killed for it, but knew.  He seems resigned to his fate, but calm and ready to die and if you save him he seems pretty lucid.  As silver said he's not the healthiest person in Thedas but his crazy level is somewhere below Meredith/Orsino.  Having heard the missing rivalry dialog though I agree on that path you break him into little tiny pieces  especially if you're a douche and get him to side with the templars.

I don't think old Anders was ever there in DA2 When Hawke met him in Darktown, he was already Vanders and that is the person he remains throughout the game. He says himself that they are one now and although the different facets of his emotions seem to reflect either Anders or Justice/Vengeance I believe that both individual entities are truly gone forever.

[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

Camilladilla wrote...

SidheKate wrote...

Loaded question: Why is it okay for Shepard to kill 300k innocent people to delay the inevitable attack, but Anders is a terrorist for killing about a dozen innocent people in the hopes of actually saving people? Is it because the player gets to do it? It isn't like there is a choice, it is mission failure if you don't - but because an NPC does it in DA, then it is endless hate and rage from some people? I'm still not saying Anders was right or wrong, and I totally expect people to come to their own conclusions, but why hate him?

Shepard's situation was a needs of the many situation. While Anders wanted to incite what would essentially be chaos.

Also, just judging by the forums, Anders had a lot stacked against him already before the game came out. The chantry jenga was just the last straw (OHOHOHO) or a convenient excuse for people to vilify him for other reasons.

I think the major issue was the eternal nagging of mage-opression.
That grated on even my nerves!
Come on! It's not like everywhere is Kirkwall, Anders! (As Carver said: "I don't hate you because you're a mage, I hate you because you won't shut up about it!")

How much of this is Justice? Or did Anders just conceal a lot of this in Awakening?

I just want to give him his cat and take him back to Amaranthine. is that too much to ask Bioware!?

[sassperella]

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...

Camilladilla wrote...

SidheKate wrote...

Loaded question: Why is it okay for Shepard to kill 300k innocent people to delay the inevitable attack, but Anders is a terrorist for killing about a dozen innocent people in the hopes of actually saving people? Is it because the player gets to do it? It isn't like there is a choice, it is mission failure if you don't - but because an NPC does it in DA, then it is endless hate and rage from some people? I'm still not saying Anders was right or wrong, and I totally expect people to come to their own conclusions, but why hate him?

Shepard's situation was a needs of the many situation. While Anders wanted to incite what would essentially be chaos.

Also, just judging by the forums, Anders had a lot stacked against him already before the game came out. The chantry jenga was just the last straw (OHOHOHO) or a convenient excuse for people to vilify him for other reasons.

I think the major issue was the eternal nagging of mage-opression.
That grated on even my nerves!
Come on! It's not like everywhere is Kirkwall, Anders! (As Carver said: "I don't hate you because you're a mage, I hate you because you won't shut up about it!")

How much of this is Justice? Or did Anders just conceal a lot of this in Awakening?

I just want to give him his cat and take him back to Amaranthine. is that too much to ask Bioware!?

I wouldn't take him back to Amaranthine if Jennifer Helper's short story is anything to go by. I don't think he'd be welcome.

[Mistress Tasharra]

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...

Camilladilla wrote...

SidheKate wrote...

Loaded question: Why is it okay for Shepard to kill 300k innocent people to delay the inevitable attack, but Anders is a terrorist for killing about a dozen innocent people in the hopes of actually saving people? Is it because the player gets to do it? It isn't like there is a choice, it is mission failure if you don't - but because an NPC does it in DA, then it is endless hate and rage from some people? I'm still not saying Anders was right or wrong, and I totally expect people to come to their own conclusions, but why hate him?

Shepard's situation was a needs of the many situation. While Anders wanted to incite what would essentially be chaos.

Also, just judging by the forums, Anders had a lot stacked against him already before the game came out. The chantry jenga was just the last straw (OHOHOHO) or a convenient excuse for people to vilify him for other reasons.

I think the major issue was the eternal nagging of mage-opression.
That grated on even my nerves!
Come on! It's not like everywhere is Kirkwall, Anders! (As Carver said: "I don't hate you because you're a mage, I hate you because you won't shut up about it!")

How much of this is Justice? Or did Anders just conceal a lot of this in Awakening?

I just want to give him his cat and take him back to Amaranthine. is that too much to ask Bioware!?

I swear to the Maker, if Hawke had just gone out and got Anders another cat, everything would have turned out fine.

:3

Seriously though, I think a lot of it is Justice. Anders mentions his hate of the Templars, the Circle, and how the Chantry handles it a lot in Awakening, he just does it in his charming manner. It's subtle, but at some points it is rather obvious.

Justice just intensified that about a thousand fold.

[silver-crescent]

It would be kinda interesting to have a Awakening-to-DA2 Anders DLC, but chances of that happening are almost zero.

[Threeparts]

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...

Hey, if the Warden and Hawke got into a fight, who would win?
And what would Anders do?

My Hawke would kick the ass of my Cousland Warden, if only because the Warden was a lot more honorable than Hawke. Hawke uses any dirty trick she can to gain an edge, while Cousland would be limited to what she believed would be the chivalrous thing to do. The main thing in Cousland's favour is that she's an archer but Hawke is melee. If she can stay at range Hawke's going to have difficulties.

Tabris would beat Hawke simply because she's completely ****ing nuts once she gets the bloodlust going. Hawke will play dirty, sure, but she simply wouldn't expect the rabid elf gnawing on her head.

I'm pretty sure Anders, knowing all three, would just facepalm, ask them not to hurt each other too badly, and go somewhere he wouldn't have to watch.

[Camilladilla]

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...

I think the major issue was the eternal nagging of mage-opression.
That grated on even my nerves!
Come on! It's not like everywhere is Kirkwall, Anders! (As Carver said: "I don't hate you because you're a mage, I hate you because you won't shut up about it!")

How much of this is Justice? Or did Anders just conceal a lot of this in Awakening?

I just want to give him his cat and take him back to Amaranthine. is that too much to ask Bioware!?

I really think it was the fact that Anders turned out to be bi and then had the audacity to flirt ONCE with a male Hawke. Not saying that this is everyone, but I'm quite certain a number of the people who foamed at the mouth over the harmless flirt also jumped for joy when they realized they could murderknife him at the end and then spam screenshots in a fan thread.

[sassperella]

Stupid Aussie time... this thread will have grown 30 pages by the time I wake up.... no discussing anything interesting for the next 7 hours please