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[nyxocity]

Does anyone have a link to a page/site full of Anders' quotes? I'm searching the internet, but it's not being very helpful.

ToP

Modifié par thenyxie, 12 avril 2011 - 09:39 .

[AnniLau]

SurelyForth wrote...

AnniLau wrote...

Boys are icky.

Boys aren't icky, but Boulton's voice is too much for me, especially in the beginning of the game. M!Hawke already sounds like a big, gaddumn hero when they're hardly out of Lothering. I really want an Arcade Gannon type voice option.

I edited!

Modifié par AnniLau, 12 avril 2011 - 09:39 .

[Purposeof-Flight]

thenyxie wrote...

Does anyone have a link to a page/site full of Anders' quotes? I'm searching the internet, but it's not being very helpful.

http://dragonage.wik...Anders/Dialogue

[SurelyForth]

AnniLau wrote...

Not Anders-related, but having seen Fox mocked here on more than one occasion, I just have to point this out.

Pink nail polish => gender confusion

And is totally the same as sexualizing young girls in inappropriate clothing. IDEKWTF.

(and I edited my post!)

Modifié par SurelyForth, 12 avril 2011 - 09:42 .

[Sialater]

By the time the Rivalrymance ending rolls around, Anders is broken. (Now, Ryz, hear me out before you yell at me.)

Hawke has spend the past 6 years telling him that the defining moment in his life, when he helped his friend with the best of intentions, doomed them both to the worst kind of existence. Neither Anders nor Justice ever even dreamed this would happen. They went into this symbiotic relationship, each thinking that they'd be different. The worst couldn't possibly happen to them.

They were wrong.

Anders' unresolved anger, apparent even in Awakening, is there, simmering under the surface. A year in solitary, pre-Awakening, didn't help. Neither did Anders apparent transfer within the Grey Wardens away from the protection of OUR Warden, and back under a Templar's thumb. Slowly, Justice started to become infected with
Anders' anger to the point where he slaughtered his brothers in arms.

THIS is Anders' first wake-up call that **** ain't right.

He leaves for Kirkwall to either hide or track down Karl or both. And ends up getting angrier when he realizes his old friend and lover is bait in a trap for him, and only by the grace of the Maker and Hawke that he wasn't trapped in it. This is the second time he loses control to Justice.

The third time is that mage girl who's name utterly escapes me. I've never let her die, so I can't say what he does there, but this is clearly warning sign number three. Anders is losing it.

He dials back for a while, whether because he's content with Hawke, or she really is the distraction Justice claims, is unclear since we're not in Anders' head and we're not given a lot to go on. But Justice is quiet for a time. Probably because nearly killing/or killing that mage scared the hell out of Anders and he manages to wrest semi-permanent control back away.

Hawke, on the rivalrymance path, spends almost every moment in game that they're together underscoring how wrong he was.  (Unfortunately, you can't do this without bashing mages in general which is stupid.) This judgment by Hawke starts wearing him down and he begins to question everything. This is the point where Hawke starts breaking him.

The Rivalrymance is brutal. There is no sugarcoating it, you're calling out the person you love (as Hawke) on his **** in the most blunt fashion possible. Sometimes, you're downright cruel. Does he deserve this? I don't know. Depends on your view of abominations.

Anders loves Hawke. Any gender, any morality, he loves Hawke. The Rivalrymance may be tough love, but it's borderline abusive. By the time he emotionally blackmails Hawke into helping (or not), he's ready to die. He's not
suicidal, but he's convinced he's no longer deserving of life. Blowing up the Chantry is Justice for the mages because it forces them to fight. They can no longer be passive. As Justice says in Awakening, "Why don't you strike a blow against your oppressors and ensure they cannot do this to anyone else?" If the mages rise up, they can't be unilaterally oppressed any more. (Not my logic -- hell it's not even Anders' logic, this is Justice, remember?) Once at max Rivalry, Anders tries to undo the bomb, but Justice, now corrupted entirely into Vengeance, takes over and prevents him from doing anything. Couple this with the mage underground imploding due to Grace's stupidity and you have an incredibly desperate man and corrupted spirit.

The Chantry goes boom.

Now, the hard part. Anders, by now, is a broken man. He's clearly lost control of Justice/Vengeance, not once, but four separate times, if not more. After all, he's been having blackouts with Justice/Vengeance doing Maker knows what while he's out. He knows he cannot be trusted. He no longer even trusts himself. And Hawke, the one rock he's come to depend on, the one constant in his personal hell, hasn't killed him. In fact, Hawke offers him a chance at redemption, a chance to try to make up for the ultimate crime of becoming an Abomination. Restore
order to the Circle. Annul the blood mages (whom he doesn't agree with anyway). Try to save the City from splintering into lawlessness. His will is gone. All he has left is Hawke. He doesn't even have himself.


Now, the problem with this is a lot of it is dependent upon subtext in a broken game path. I reserve the right to change my analysis if I ever get to actually play the full, unbugged Rivalry path.


Do I agree that this is the best path for him? No. But I do think it's within character.

Modifié par Sialater, 12 avril 2011 - 09:45 .

[Purposeof-Flight]

SurelyForth wrote...

AnniLau wrote...

Not Anders-related, but having seen Fox mocked here on more than one occasion, I just have to point this out.

Pink nail polish => gender confusion

And is totally the same as sexualizing young girls in inappropriate clothing. IDEKWTF.

OMG serr-essly?
If my son said, "Mom, I want to paint my nails pink", I would say, "Son, you go get that pink nail polish and we'll paint your freaking nails. Let's do this."

Who caresssss? Maybe I'm not seeing the big picture because I think comparing little girls in halter tops to painting nails pink is ****ING ridiculous, but honestly....I would think that telling your kid that he's not allowed to like pink because he's a male would just confuse him more...and possibly damage him if you keep the same attitude about things like...teddy bears and EMOTIONS.

[ipgd]

SurelyForth wrote...

AnniLau wrote...

Tasmen wrote...

AnniLau wrote...

I might have to play a male Hawke if those lines were in game. His delivery is just so...

I don't have words.

You totally should play one anyway.  The dick jokes with Fenris never get old.  *stares at Yuki*

Boys are icky.

(By which I mean awesome. I just don't want to play one.)

Boys aren't icky, but Boulton's voice is too much for me, especially in the beginning of the game. M!Hawke already sounds like a big, gaddumn hero when they're hardly out of Lothering. I really want an Arcade Gannon type voice option.

Snark!M!Hawke didn't have this problem too much. He's just ready to show Kirkwall what a real queen looks like, and boy did he ever

[CatOfEvilGenius]

Miri1984 wrote...

CatOfEvilGenius wrote...

(more snips)

Short term, yeah, he freed the Kirkwall Circle mages.  Those that survived the battle anyway, and aren't blood mages, because I don't count freeing them as any kind of win.  Long term, there's a war, and the hearts and minds of the people in Kirkwall are, if anything, more anti-mage than before.  

Except that I don't think this is the case. Meredith is the nutty one - she's the one who insists that the Kirkwall Circle be purged and everyone, including Sebastian to a certain extent go WTF? The Mages didn't do this! Anders did! The missions show that there's a hell of a lot of sympathy for mages even in Kirkwall where people are being attacked by blood magic every three seconds. The TEMPLARS refuse to kill Hawke at the end. Anders was completely willing to take the blame for the Chantry bombing - all he wanted was to spark the war, force the other mages into rebellion, which is what he did. 

Honestly I think most of Thedas just wishes mages would go away, but if they have family or friends who are mages (and a lot of them seem to) I think the sympathy is actually more towards them than the Templars. It might have been different when the circles were first created, but these days, especially in places like Ferelden, and especially if your Warden was a mage, mages are the ones the population are going to come down on the side of.

Meredith is so nutty I can't even begin to describe it, yes!

That first paragraph, valid points there.  We saw the sympathy in DAO too, with the relatives of blood mages quest from the mages collective.  I agree the mages had popular support among *some* people.  However, I believe mages and their relatives are a minority, just my
understanding, you're entitled to yours.  Recall that many people
believe magic in the family is shamefull.  They fear or dislike magic.  Look at Leandra's parents,
and Isolde in DAO.  Even those with mage relatives sometimes side with the chantry.  Look at Emile's dad, who thought the Circle was the best option for his son, and Feynriel's mom.  I don't think everyone will have Sebastian's ability to separate Anders from all mages.  Anders can take the blame all he wants, his action will still exacerbate the feelings of those who don't have mage relatives and who fear mages.  I was suprised by the lack of reaction to the bloodrager gang, that just seemed unrealistic to me.  But then, we didn't see reaction to any of the gangs, not sure what to make of that.

While the war rages, those who were sympathetic to mages will probably continue to be so, but again, I think they were a minority.  If I'm a farmer and my fields just went up in flames from some mage's fireball, and then the templars ate all my dairy cows, I may not like either side much.  If I already feared mages, I may well blame them for starting the war and throw my support to the templars.  The chantry, to the best of my understanding, has a much bigger support base than the mages, and the templars will claim they fight for the chantry. 

The mage Hero of Ferelden has lots of influence, but, if I understand correctly, that led to reform of the Circles in Ferelden, better treatment of mages, not abolition of the Circles nor abolition of templar oversight.  My guess is Joe on the street thinks "Mages working within Chantry law can do great things, they're people too, and don't need to be jailed", but he doesn't necessarily think "Well, templars and Circles are unnecessary now".  Again, just my take on things.

Regardless, thanks for your reply.  So nice to discuss weighty, emotionally fraught stuff with with calm, thoughtful people.  This thread is so unlike the rest of teh intarwebz in that respect.

Modifié par CatOfEvilGenius, 12 avril 2011 - 09:48 .

[Tasmen]

ipgd wrote...

Snark!M!Hawke didn't have this problem too much. He's just ready to show Kirkwall what a real queen looks like, and boy did he ever

Seriously, I cannot wait to finish redoing my canon PT so that I can go back and play a snark!m!hawke with a sassy walk and even sassier robes.

[Miri1984]

Purposeof-Flight wrote...

SurelyForth wrote...

AnniLau wrote...

Not Anders-related, but having seen Fox mocked here on more than one occasion, I just have to point this out.

Pink nail polish => gender confusion

And is totally the same as sexualizing young girls in inappropriate clothing. IDEKWTF.

OMG serr-essly?
If my son said, "Mom, I want to paint my nails pink", I would say, "Son, you go get that pink nail polish and we'll paint your freaking nails. Let's do this."

Who caresssss? Maybe I'm not seeing the big picture because I think comparing little girls in halter tops to painting nails pink is ****ING ridiculous, but honestly....I would think that telling your kid that he's not allowed to like pink because he's a male would just confuse him more...and possibly damage him if you keep the same attitude about things like...teddy bears and EMOTIONS.

I hear you sister! When my son (who spends a great deal of his seven-month old time watching Meredanders with me) wants some cyan eyeshadow I'm gettin' it for him . I'd get it for my daughter too if she asked, but she's too busy playing with dinosaurs these days. Gender identification has NOTHING to do with kids play time with their parents. Or if it does, as you say, WHO FREAKING CARES?

My sister likes to joke that if her son turns out straight she MIGHT let him visit on weekends... 

ETA: @CatofEvilGenius YAY, It IS nice to have calm measured discussions on the internet . And I see your points too. Average joes aren't going to like the war no matter what.

Modifié par Miri1984, 12 avril 2011 - 09:54 .

[Dunizel]

Sialater wrote...

Hawke, on the rivalrymance path, spends almost every moment in game that they're together underscoring how wrong he was.  (Unfortunately, you can't do this without bashing mages in general which is stupid.) This judgment by Hawke starts wearing him down and he begins to question everything. This is the point where Hawke starts breaking him.

The Rivalrymance is brutal. There is no sugarcoating it, you're calling out the person you love (as Hawke) on his **** in the most blunt fashion possible. Sometimes, you're downright cruel. Does he deserve this? I don't know. Depends on your view of abominations.

I know it was just my way of playing it and my Hawke, but I was never brutal to Anders. I gave him nice answers most of the time, I just was a bit more decisive when talking about Justice. My rivalry points came from sending mages to the Circle  and helping templars in some missions. But toward Anders himself, you don't have to be a complete douche or aim at breaking him to take onward the rivalmance. For example I took the nice answer after the "Ella" incident, telling him that he doesn't have to give up and he should try to be an example. 
Just my playthrough, as I said, but I just wanted to stress out that Hawke doesn't have to be cruel with him

[CatOfEvilGenius]

Batteries wrote...

CatOfEvilGenius wrote...

bishy anime hair.

I resent that.

We're just too fabulous.

I'm sorry.  I'm a big meanie.

* kisses everyone with bishy anime hair  to make up for it *

:happy:

[Pseudo the Mustachioed]

AnniLau wrote...

Not Anders-related, but having seen Fox mocked here on more than one occasion, I just have to point this out.

Pink nail polish => gender confusion

That article is the most infuriating thing I've seen all week.

[ipgd]

Sialater wrote...

Do I agree that this is the best path for him? No. But I do think it's within character.

i agree with your analysis let's all hold hands and sing <3

Tasmen wrote...

ipgd wrote...

Snark!M!Hawke
didn't have this problem too much. He's just ready to show Kirkwall what a real queen looks like, and boy did he ever [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/love.png[/smilie]

Seriously, I cannot wait to finish redoing my canon PT so that I can go back and play a snark!m!hawke with a sassy walk and even sassier robes.

Greatest mod ever made.

Modifié par ipgd, 12 avril 2011 - 09:53 .

[Sialater]

Dunizel wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Hawke, on the rivalrymance path, spends almost every moment in game that they're together underscoring how wrong he was.  (Unfortunately, you can't do this without bashing mages in general which is stupid.) This judgment by Hawke starts wearing him down and he begins to question everything. This is the point where Hawke starts breaking him.

The Rivalrymance is brutal. There is no sugarcoating it, you're calling out the person you love (as Hawke) on his **** in the most blunt fashion possible. Sometimes, you're downright cruel. Does he deserve this? I don't know. Depends on your view of abominations.

I know it was just my way of playing it and my Hawke, but I was never brutal to Anders. I gave him nice answers most of the time, I just was a bit more decisive when talking about Justice. My rivalry points came from sending mages to the Circle  and helping templars in some missions. But toward Anders himself, you don't have to be a complete douche or aim at breaking him to take onward the rivalmance. For example I took the nice answer after the "Ella" incident, telling him that he doesn't have to give up and he should try to be an example. 
Just my playthrough, as I said, but I just wanted to stress out that Hawke doesn't have to be cruel with him

LOL, thanks for reading my Wall o' Text.

It doesn't HAVE to be abusive, but it can be.  But still doesn't invalidate the rest of my analysis.

[Sialater]

ipgd wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Do I agree that this is the best path for him? No. But I do think it's within character.

i agree with your analysis let's all hold hands and sing <3

YAY!  Someone else who read my Wall o' Text! 

And yes, I don't know if I'll ever do it, but it's justifiable to me, at least.

[shiba5]

AnniLau wrote...

Not Anders-related, but having seen Fox mocked here on more than one occasion, I just have to point this out.

Pink nail polish => gender confusion

"Yeah, well, it may be fun and games now, Jenna, but at least put some
money aside for psychotherapy for the kid—and maybe a little for others
who’ll be affected by your “innocent” pleasure."

WOW!
He's totally one of those ZOMG ANOTHER MAN!! people!

[Tasmen]

ipgd wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Do I agree that this is the best path for him? No. But I do think it's within character.

i agree with your analysis let's all hold hands and sing <3

Tasmen wrote...

ipgd wrote...

Snark!M!Hawke
didn't have this problem too much. He's just ready to show Kirkwall what a real queen looks like, and boy did he ever [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/love.png[/smilie]

Seriously, I cannot wait to finish redoing my canon PT so that I can go back and play a snark!m!hawke with a sassy walk and even sassier robes.

Greatest mod ever made.

It is definitely competing with DAO nudey mod for #1 position in my heart.

Modifié par Tasmen, 12 avril 2011 - 10:01 .

[Ryzaki]

Well I already told you how I feel about the wall-o-text Sia. <3 

That said I have to say the abusive version of the rivalrymance you mean...It felt very real and raw to me. Very sad and angry and bitter yet loving. It was a true whirlwind. Much more so to me than the friendship path.

Alas when I got to the Last Straw that whirlwind was replaced by utter confusion. And me wondering if Justice had completely hijacked Anders. Yet for some reason not being able to say it.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 12 avril 2011 - 09:59 .

[AnniLau]

Ha, amusing A_Howdz exchange on Twitter in which the BioWare boards were mentioned.

(Don't look, Adam...you'll be scarred for life.)

[Inzhuna]

@Sialater I read it too and I agree (on most counts). *is braindead from writing a paper on EU asylum seeker polcies*

[Purposeof-Flight]

Sialater wrote...

ipgd wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Do I agree that this is the best path for him? No. But I do think it's within character.

i agree with your analysis let's all hold hands and sing <3

YAY!  Someone else who read my Wall o' Text! 

And yes, I don't know if I'll ever do it, but it's justifiable to me, at least.

I'll be honest, I didn't read it.
Because I had THE crappiest day and when I'm in a bad mood I can't concentrate on anything longer than a few minutes. Which is why I keep switching from killing Majini in Resident Evil 5 and coming to this thread to lulz.

But since I like you, I'll automatically assume that it's badass.

[shiba5]

Pseudocognition wrote...

AnniLau wrote...

Not Anders-related, but having seen Fox mocked here on more than one occasion, I just have to point this out.

Pink nail polish => gender confusion

That article is the most infuriating thing I've seen all week.

I bet the comments are just as bad, although I couldn't bring myself to click on them.

[CatOfEvilGenius]

Dunizel wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Hawke, on the rivalrymance path, spends almost every moment in game that they're together underscoring how wrong he was.  (Unfortunately, you can't do this without bashing mages in general which is stupid.) This judgment by Hawke starts wearing him down and he begins to question everything. This is the point where Hawke starts breaking him.

The Rivalrymance is brutal. There is no sugarcoating it, you're calling out the person you love (as Hawke) on his **** in the most blunt fashion possible. Sometimes, you're downright cruel. Does he deserve this? I don't know. Depends on your view of abominations.

I know it was just my way of playing it and my Hawke, but I was never brutal to Anders. I gave him nice answers most of the time, I just was a bit more decisive when talking about Justice. My rivalry points came from sending mages to the Circle  and helping templars in some missions. But toward Anders himself, you don't have to be a complete douche or aim at breaking him to take onward the rivalmance. For example I took the nice answer after the "Ella" incident, telling him that he doesn't have to give up and he should try to be an example. 
Just my playthrough, as I said, but I just wanted to stress out that Hawke doesn't have to be cruel with him

This!  You can get tons of rivalry points by just not doing everything his way and disagreeing with him politely.  Get past 50% rivalry, and even being nice and kind can annoy him.  In Act 3, you can refuse to help him with Dissent, in a perfectly civil manner, and get -30. 


edit:
I did read your wall of text, and agree with the overall Anders is broken theme.  That dialogue where he says maybe he can still undo the bomb and then Justice takes over is so sad for me to watch.  

edit 2:
Can't hold wall of text against anyone, since I'm so guilty of writing them myself.  Seriously, if someone can give me a link to hints for concise writing, I would be grateful.

Modifié par CatOfEvilGenius, 12 avril 2011 - 10:08 .

[Inzhuna]

Ryzaki wrote...

Well I already told you how I feel about the wall-o-text Sia. <3 

That said I have to say the abusive version of the rivalrymance you mean...It felt very real and raw to me. Very sad and angry and bitter yet loving. It was a true whirlwind. Much more so to me than the friendship path.

Alas when I got to the Last Straw that whirlwind was replaced by utter confusion. And me wondering if Justice had completely hijacked Anders. Yet for some reason not being able to say it.

Yes, this so much. My PT where aggressive warrior fem!Hawke rivalmanced Anders and supported templars is my favourite because it just evoked so many emotions from me. It's still not finished. I hope they fix the bugs soon.