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[Ryzaki]

@nodice:

Did you just say Dude Hawke has no variety in his voice?

I can no longer take you seriously. At all.

I dislike Lady Hawke's voice. But she does have range. So does dude Hawke.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 12 avril 2011 - 10:17 .

[Purposeof-Flight]

shiba5 wrote...

Purposeof-Flight wrote...

Ehh. I'm not fangirling over Adam Howden.
First of all, I cannot navigate Twitter, so I avoid it lest my brain explode.
Second of all, I try not to even see what VAs look like, or else their face will replace the face of the character, which is not acceptable.
Third of all....just...not interested.

He ain't bad. I'm just sayin'...

So I hear.
But I made that mistake with Zev's VA.
Now every time he talks I've got his VA's face floating in my head.
And I'm like, "Nooooooo GO AWAY."

[thebrute7]

Ryzaki wrote...

I don't know. I see the friendship path as enabling him.  You just let him get swallowed up by Justice with a whimper. Instead of the railing and screaming. Prettier but no less horrifying. 

Truth be told the rivalry path is only as abusive as you make it. My aggressive Hawke railed on him. My diplomatic Hawke just sighed and tried to point out the flaws in his logic that Justice wasn't a demon.

You can make it ugly on the rivalry path. But you can make it ugly on the friendship path.

I don't follow... Justice wasn't a demon.  What he was twisted into by Anders anger was Vengeance, and that I can see as a demon.  Justice was never a demon however.

[CatOfEvilGenius]

nekhbet wrote...

shiba5 wrote...

I wish there had been a bit more at the end. He really wasn't acting as insane as I thought he should have been after all that. Maybe he was going catatonic.

He was riding high on a psychotic mania not long before, so I'm not surprised that he dropped hard to catatonia once he lost his focus on jenga'ing the Chantry.

(snip)

Catatonia didn't occur to me, so now I'm even sadder!  I thought it was just his suicidal tendencies, being calm before the end.

Did notice the "high on Justice" mania, oh yes.  Was anyone else incredibly creeped out by Anders getting high like that?  I know it was from Justice exulting, but still!  My rotten!Hawke was jumping for joy with him, since it was her goal to smoosh Anders and have Vengeance in control. 

[nyxocity]

Hee. I am amused that Adam Howden also follows Nathan Fillion.

[Ryzaki]

thebrute7 wrote...


I don't follow... Justice wasn't a demon.  What he was twisted into by Anders anger was Vengeance, and that I can see as a demon.  Justice was never a demon however.

Anders turned Justice into a demon. I use Justice and Vengeance interchangeably though perhaps I shouldn't. 

[thebrute7]

Miri1984 wrote...

ipgd wrote...

Both the friendship and rivalry paths are pretty damn depressing. You're either enabling him until he completely gives himself to Justice, or antagonizing him until Justice becomes so corrupted and discordant that he cannot contain him. In both cases, old Anders is basically dead; it's just a matter of whether you think it's better that he fade away peacefully or fight to retain his individuality to the end.

I don't agree with this on the friendship path. I don't think he HAS completely given himself to Justice, any more than he already has, that is. Old Anders was dead the moment he let Justice in - I think that's pretty clear from the short story. He's ALREADY gone, and trying to get him back just doesn't work, is NEVER going to work. On the friendship path you're not letting him "give in" to Justice, you're accepting the new Anders.

That's my two cents, any way.

I agree.  The firendship path seemed to me to be accepting him for who he has become, and helping him to accept who he has become as well.  That doesn't mean giving in to Justice and letting him takepver, it means letting him be who he is instead fo trying to turn him into something he can never be.  Justice is a part of him.  Period.  You can't seperate them.

[AnniLau]

thenyxie wrote...

Hee. I am amused that Adam Howden also follows Nathan Fillion.

He will always be Captain Tightpants to me.

[Sable Rhapsody]

CatOfEvilGenius wrote...
Catatonia didn't occur to me, so now I'm even sadder!  I thought it was just his suicidal tendencies, being calm before the end.

Did notice the "high on Justice" mania, oh yes.  Was anyone else incredibly creeped out by Anders getting high like that?  I know it was from Justice exulting, but still!  My rotten!Hawke was jumping for joy with him, since it was her goal to smoosh Anders and have Vengeance in control. 

Well, he IS basically manic-depressive.  Even his character codex entry says that.  And regardless of whether you take friendship or rivalry, he's so resigned at the end of DA2.  He begs you to kill him in rivalry, and in friendship, all but expects you to without even asking.

GODDAMNIT ANDERS. WHYYYYYY.

[Ryzaki]

Justice is a part of him true. Justice is not him however.

Friendship is letting them merge and Justice is the stronger being.

Rivalry is letting them fight it out and Justice is still the stronger being.

Either way Anders loses. Anders isn't Anders anymore.

Who you meet at the beginning of DA2 isn't Vengeance. It's Anders and Vengeance.

That's why I hate the friendship ending happening on the rivalry path. Because it shows Vengeance taking over completely and yet Hawke can't acknowledge that. At least that's how it looks to me on the rivarly path going to the friendship route.  

At least with Friendship that's what you're trying to do. Get them to merge and become calmer. On rivalry you're trying to rip the two of them apart. It's probably not gonna work but you don't want Anders to lose himself to a demon. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 12 avril 2011 - 10:23 .

[Purposeof-Flight]

Woot for Anders losing.
Sweet. >.> ****ing writers. And their ****ing tragedy.

[ipgd]

Miri1984 wrote...

ipgd wrote...

Both the friendship and rivalry paths are pretty damn depressing. You're either enabling him until he completely gives himself to Justice, or antagonizing him until Justice becomes so corrupted and discordant that he cannot contain him. In both cases, old Anders is basically dead; it's just a matter of whether you think it's better that he fade away peacefully or fight to retain his individuality to the end.

I don't agree with this on the friendship path. I don't think he HAS completely given himself to Justice, any more than he already has, that is. Old Anders was dead the moment he let Justice in - I think that's pretty clear from the short story. He's ALREADY gone, and trying to get him back just doesn't work, is NEVER going to work. On the friendship path you're not letting him "give in" to Justice, you're accepting the new Anders.

That's my two cents, any way.

I don't know. I see a really marked decline over the course of the game, even compared solely to act I Anders. He just gradually becomes completely consumed by his obsession. I think these banters highlight it well:

Act II:
Anders: Boiling in oil.
Varric: Too prosaic. Trapped in a cave with hungry bears, right at the spring thaw.
Anders: That lets him off too easy. Dipped in molten gold and left as a statue in the Viscount's Keep.
Varric: Ooh. That's poetic!
Hawke: What are you two talking about?
Varric: What to do to Bartrand when I find him.
Anders: Any suggestions?

Act III:
Varric: So, the knight-commander... Boiling in oil? That one never gets old.
Anders: This is past time for joking.
Varric: I'm helping you indulge in elaborate revenge fantasies. I think it's good for you.
Anders: Meredith will die. Do not doubt that.
Varric: Go away, Justice. Can Anders come out and play?
Anders: Stop.
Varric: You are no fun anymore.

[nyxocity]

AnniLau wrote...

thenyxie wrote...

Hee. I am amused that Adam Howden also follows Nathan Fillion.

He will always be Captain Tightpants to me.

And to me. Mal's still my favorite character ever.

[nodice]

Ryzaki wrote...

@nodice:

Did you just say Dude Hawke has no variety in his voice?

I can no longer take you seriously. At all.

Did you before 

Ok, let's say with Lady Hawke if feel I'm listening to a voice actress, Mr. Hawke seems a bit...underwhelming in comparison. I just think he's saying everything with the same tone, pretty much. Something's not just as good, to me at least  I've seen the romance scenes too and Lady Hawke just rocks.

Someone made a vid.

Modifié par nodice, 12 avril 2011 - 10:25 .

[CatOfEvilGenius]

Miri1984 wrote...

ipgd wrote...

Both the friendship and rivalry paths are pretty damn depressing. You're either enabling him until he completely gives himself to Justice, or antagonizing him until Justice becomes so corrupted and discordant that he cannot contain him. In both cases, old Anders is basically dead; it's just a matter of whether you think it's better that he fade away peacefully or fight to retain his individuality to the end.

I don't agree with this on the friendship path. I don't think he HAS completely given himself to Justice, any more than he already has, that is. Old Anders was dead the moment he let Justice in - I think that's pretty clear from the short story. He's ALREADY gone, and trying to get him back just doesn't work, is NEVER going to work. On the friendship path you're not letting him "give in" to Justice, you're accepting the new Anders.

I also do not see the friendship path as enabling.  You don't HAVE to agree with him all the time on the friendship path.  You can question him, disagree, call him on his lies.  Just not too often, he's so touchy.   You can get him to 100% friendship very early in Act 2, mostly just by siding with mages.  In Act 3, you can have Hawke believe that saltpeter is really for a potion, then get upset with him about the lie.  You can try to stop him from blowing up the chantry, and watch Justice take over and yell at Justice.  You can be kind and loving and mage freeing, and still disagree about bombs and possession.  He gets snarfed by Vengeance despite Hawke's best efforts, in that scenario.

edit: The husband thinks Anders has mostly given up fighting Vengeance, but if you spare him, he regains some of his will to fight.  Sometimes people give up even when others try to save them.

Modifié par CatOfEvilGenius, 12 avril 2011 - 10:27 .

[Inzhuna]

CatOfEvilGenius wrote...
*snip*
Did notice the "high on Justice" mania, oh yes.  Was anyone else incredibly creeped out by Anders getting high like that?  I know it was from Justice exulting, but still!  My rotten!Hawke was jumping for joy with him, since it was her goal to smoosh Anders and have Vengeance in control. 

Yes I was incredibly creeped out by that and it depressed the hell out of me. He is so gone there.

[Miri1984]

Ryzaki wrote...

Justice is a part of him true. Justice is not him however.

Friendship is letting them merge and Justice is the stronger being.

Rivalry is letting them fight it out and Justice is still the stronger being.

Either way Anders loses. Anders isn't Anders anymore.

Who you meet at the beginning of DA2 isn't Vengeance. It's Anders and Vengeance.

That's why I hate the friendship ending happening on the rivalry path. Because it shows Vengeance taking over completely and yet Hawke can't acknowledge that. At least that's how it looks to me on the rivarly path going to the friendship route.  

At least with Friendship that's what you're trying to do. Get them to merge and become calmer. On rivalry you're trying to rip the two of them apart. It's probably not gonna work but you don't want Anders to lose himself to a demon. 

He says it so many times, on both friendship and rivalry. Justice IS him. He is Justice. And I know it's dodgy, because there are traits that belong to both of them that surface at different times, but that's the same as anyone else out there - I have angry traits and happy traits and it often depends entirely on how much sleep I've had which person I am on any given day. The only difference for Anders is that he has a name for it.

[Inzhuna]

CatOfEvilGenius wrote...


I also do not see the friendship path as enabling.  You don't HAVE to agree with him all the time on the friendship path.  You can question him, disagree, call him on his lies.  Just not too often, he's so touchy.   You can get him to 100% friendship very early in Act 2, mostly just by siding with mages.  In Act 3, you can have Hawke believe that saltpeter is really for a potion, then get upset with him about the lie.  You can try to stop him from blowing up the chantry, and watch Justice take over and yell at Justice.  You can be kind and loving and mage freeing, and still disagree about bombs and possession.  He gets snarfed by Vengeance despite Hawke's best efforts, in that scenario.

Really? I thought that scene is rivalry-specific?

[nekhbet]

Ah, joy. The Steam patch garbled up my graphics, despite correct drivers. The best thing is that all rivalry convo options appear to have heart symbols. Time for a bad romance with Anders, I guess.

[Amondra]

I always sort of though Justice just enhanced Anders need for Justice, mostly things he felt strongly for, like the rights of mages. I think in the end of the friendmance, Anders and Hawke finally except that he will never be "Human" in a sense they want him to be. That Anders is Justice/Vengeance and Vengeance/Justice is Anders. Who knows maybe after the Chantry or the whole thing ends(assuming mages win) Justice will slowly go back to his old self some what because Anders has calmed. Also that isn't to say if Anders gets over his own rage, and not like Hawke might have a point. But truly calm himself, he might be able to help both him and Justice. I just don't see Anders in the same class of abominations as the rest we fight no matter who much Justice takes over. Almost like there is a small shred of the old spirit there still fighting as well.

[Miri1984]

LOL Adam Howden ILU http://www.reverbnation.com/adamhowden

[Tasmen]

Miri1984 wrote...

LOL Adam Howden ILU http://www.reverbnation.com/adamhowden

Best part of that link?  The picture and his styling styling hair.

[Miri1984]

@Tasmen THE MULLET. IT BURNS.

[TripLight]

Miri1984 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

Justice is a part of him true. Justice is not him however.

Friendship is letting them merge and Justice is the stronger being.

Rivalry is letting them fight it out and Justice is still the stronger being.

Either way Anders loses. Anders isn't Anders anymore.

Who you meet at the beginning of DA2 isn't Vengeance. It's Anders and Vengeance.

That's why I hate the friendship ending happening on the rivalry path. Because it shows Vengeance taking over completely and yet Hawke can't acknowledge that. At least that's how it looks to me on the rivarly path going to the friendship route.  

At least with Friendship that's what you're trying to do. Get them to merge and become calmer. On rivalry you're trying to rip the two of them apart. It's probably not gonna work but you don't want Anders to lose himself to a demon. 

He says it so many times, on both friendship and rivalry. Justice IS him. He is Justice. And I know it's dodgy, because there are traits that belong to both of them that surface at different times, but that's the same as anyone else out there - I have angry traits and happy traits and it often depends entirely on how much sleep I've had which person I am on any given day. The only difference for Anders is that he has a name for it.

I agree with this, and I myself can't take the rivalry path simple because I think support but not outright enabling  is the better path IMO. My Hawke's will disagree and call him out on occasion. I also see the friendship path as Anders accepting what he has become and coming to terms with it.

*begentle*

[CatOfEvilGenius]

thebrute7 wrote...

Miri1984 wrote...

(snip)

I don't agree with this on the friendship path. I don't think he HAS completely given himself to Justice, any more than he already has, that is. Old Anders was dead the moment he let Justice in - I think that's pretty clear from the short story. He's ALREADY gone, and trying to get him back just doesn't work, is NEVER going to work. On the friendship path you're not letting him "give in" to Justice, you're accepting the new Anders.

That's my two cents, any way.

I agree.  The firendship path seemed to me to be accepting him for who he has become, and helping him to accept who he has become as well.  That doesn't mean giving in to Justice and letting him takepver, it means letting him be who he is instead fo trying to turn him into something he can never be.  Justice is a part of him.  Period.  You can't seperate them.

The bold text!  What my friendmance Hawke wants is for Anders to integrate Justice's drive and zeal without being consumed by it.  She wants Justice to accept Anders human needs for food, sleep, love, and other "distractions".  A healthy, mentally stable revolutionary is an effective revolutionary!  She wants Justice to be Justice and not Vengeance.  She wants Justice to find joy and pleasure in certain aspects of human existence, as he once did in Awakenings.  If they can't be separated, she wants to love them both, as one, not watch them hurt each other.