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[HolyJellyfish]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

Nivilant wrote...

But isn't that then sacrificing people for the sake of symbolism? She was told, possibly multiple times, that something was going to happen. To neglect those warnings for herself is fine, but she didn't think to protect her flock by... them not being there?

Something was going to happen, she didn't think the entire Chantry would be destroyed in a massive explosion of magic, heck even Anders took three years unearthing obscure Tevinter bomb recipes just to make it happen. 

The way I took it was she thought that violence was going to continue to escalate, and that the Chantry would have a lot of work to do, both in terms of spiritual guidance and humanitarian aid. 

Telling her "hey get out something bad is gonna happen" is like asking her to quit her job at a time when it couldn't be more important.

But sitting back and watching innocent people being executed by Templars is okay, knowing that one word from you would resolve the issue?

Sitting back and watching blood magic all around yous, one word could stop it at once?

Her playing the middle man escalated the issues out of everyone's power. Hiding behind the Chantry's laws just comes to show that Anders is right all along - The Chantry is NOT helping. At. All.


She has just as much blood on her hands for doing nothing over the course of six years.

[panamakira]

silver-crescent wrote...

So out of curiosity, a question to those of you who romanced Anders.

At the end of the game did you

a) kill him
tell him to leave
c) allow him to stay but end the romance
d) allow him to stay and stay together at the end
?

First playthrough
D) I don't even know why but I did. Surprising since I did not agree whatsoever with what he did but maybe I was too hopeful in thinking that perhaps his decision wasn't entirely his own but Justice's and maybe I gave him another chance to try and save him.

But really is it worth saving him when he has become a possessed radical mage that used to be Grey Warden so he has what? 15 years or so left? *sigh* Maybe I should've killed him.

[upsettingshorts]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

I agree. There is a difference between being faithful and tending the flock, and just being completely blind to the problem.

This strikes me as a flawed interpretation of the situation. 

Not the least of which is I don't think anyone is blind to the problem by Act 3.  Not a soul in Kirkwall.  

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Mage vs Templars were escalating, and she just refused to take sides and twiddle her thumbs in the Chantry. I can't defend someone who sits back and watches the world around her burn by not doing ANYTHING. She's NOT an innocent bystander. She could have saved millions of lives, and doing nothing was just as great a sin.

Are you kidding? You can defend Anders but not the person who leads by example of moderation and tolerance?  Who has responsibilities and stands by them in the most difficult of times?

The Grand Cleric wanted to be the Grand Cleric.  Not jump in headfirst into a worldly political mess.  What was going to come was going to come, she had no illusions of being able to stop it, she just wanted to be there when it happened to guide her people through it. 

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Seriously. My play through. I totally warned her about Anders, and she wouldn't budge despite all the lives at stake. She carries just as much blame as Anders, Orsino, and Meredith.

*head desk*

I could throw out so many real world comparisons right now. 

[Nivilant]

I don't know... it just doesn't sit right with me. Maybe I'm taking it too much at face value.

As an aside, I shouldn't read this thread while listening to music. Fight for All the Wrong Reasons is now reminding me of Hawke and a rivalmanced Anders... in an obscure, dirty-lyric'd sort of way. Mind you, I am awfully adept at twisting words to my own personal meaning. Fun times.

Edit: Can we not keep tripping over the real world thing? This isn't the real world. It's a magical land of blights and dragons. I don't want to start dragging real events in. That just hands out offense, defense and all-round unpleasantness.

Modifié par Nivilant, 18 mars 2011 - 11:55 .

[Eshaye]

AtreiyaN7 wrote...

I always thought Elthina was one of the few voices of reason and that maybe if she'd stepped in sooner it would have provided a middle way. Oh well, there was also Trask who tried to show that mages and templars could work together, but we all know how that went...pity.

That was my impression of her at first too, but towards the end when both sides were showing signs of breaking down she insisted on not stepping in and cleaning things up. She's in control, that was her job but she didn't do it. As an example she reminds me of mothers who are always excusing their children, never giving them the stern reprimand they may derserve, just a little 'no no now' without really meaning it and are totally shocked when something bad happens. >.> 

[silver-crescent]

panamakira wrote...

silver-crescent wrote...

So out of curiosity, a question to those of you who romanced Anders.

At the end of the game did you

a) kill him
tell him to leave
c) allow him to stay but end the romance
d) allow him to stay and stay together at the end
?

First playthrough
D) I don't even know why but I did. Surprising since I did not agree whatsoever with what he did but maybe I was too hopeful in thinking that perhaps his decision wasn't entirely his own but Justice's and maybe I gave him another chance to try and save him.

But really is it worth saving him when he has become a possessed radical mage that used to be Grey Warden so he has what? 15 years or so left? *sigh* Maybe I should've killed him.

More like 20 probably... but that's assuming Justice doesn't affect his lifespan, which I think he might given some of his skills from the vengeance tree - extra health regeneration and whatnot.

[Raiil]

* shrugs * Her equivocating the entire time did make things worse. The mages that live in the Circle are as much her flock as the templars guarding them. The fact that templars were actively aiding mages against Meredith's growing battiness shows that something is seriously wrong, and Elthina is either in denial or too far gone in senility to do her job effectively.

It doesn't matter how popular she is. She's rendered herself ineffective and while I won't lay the end results at her feet, she has a hand in what happened. By doing nothing, she made the situation worse.

[TripLight]

Valentia X wrote...

TripLight wrote...

Nivilant wrote...

Upsettingshorts wrote...

I don't see why it bugs anyone. She's a reasonable, responsible person of great local authority. Her office, both literally and symbolically, is the Chantry. She is, more or less, the representative of the Maker in Kirkwall. If she left the Chantry not only is she literally not in position to tend to her flock, it would be symbolic of the Maker Himself abandoning the city.

Elthina is one of the few reasonable, clearheaded, non-zealots in the entire game.

But isn't that then sacrificing people for the sake of symbolism? She was told, possibly multiple times, that something was going to happen. To neglect those warnings for herself is fine, but she didn't think to protect her flock by... them not being there?

She said it herself(not verbatim), "Who would dare attack a Grand Cleric?" She thought no one would touch her.

Apparently the Divine would, since she was considering an exalted march and told Elthina to get out of town while she could. Collateral damage, etc.

Ego definitely played a part in her staying, I still can't believe she would just ignore all the warning signs, and like you said, the Divine, the Head of the Chantry told her to GTFO.  I loved her character..she seemed reasonable and wise...but common sense I thought was lacking with her sitting on the fence like that. This is just my opinion on the matter, though.

[HolyJellyfish]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Mage vs Templars were escalating, and she just refused to take sides and twiddle her thumbs in the Chantry. I can't defend someone who sits back and watches the world around her burn by not doing ANYTHING. She's NOT an innocent bystander. She could have saved millions of lives, and doing nothing was just as great a sin.

Are you kidding? You can defend Anders but not the person who leads by example of moderation and tolerance?  Who has responsibilities and stands by them in the most difficult of times?

The Grand Cleric wanted to be the Grand Cleric.  Not jump in headfirst into a worldly political mess.  What was going to come was going to come, she had no illusions of being able to stop it, she just wanted to be there when it happened to guide her people through it. 

The Grand Cleric, like it or not, is deeply ingrained in the worldly political mess. The Templars are operating by the code of the Chantry. Mages lives are constrained by Chantry Law.

The Grand Cleric LIVES by the Chantry. Her interpretations of its text rule Kirkwall's theology and spirituality. Her power is obvious in Act III. Meredith is silenced by her and Orsino calmed. She is the final word in all issues, and she chose not to fulfill that duty.

You mistaken doing nothing with moderation and tolerance. Since you are constantly comparing Anders to terrorism, then I'll be more than happy to compare the Grand Cleric to the Pope during N-azi Germany in WWII. Even though the Pope was well aware of the holocaust, he essentially did absolutely nothing.

Same goes for the Grand Cleric. She knew what was happening. She knew that Mages were being turned Tranquil and abused for mundane reasons. She saw how mages were beginning to retaliate. And she still did nothing.

She would see the entire circle Annuled and probably not say a word. In this case, silence breeds intolerance and hatred.


So there is your real world comparison.

Modifié par HolyJellyfish, 19 mars 2011 - 12:00 .

[upsettingshorts]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

But sitting back and watching innocent people being executed by Templars is okay, knowing that one word from you would resolve the issue?

Sitting back and watching blood magic all around yous, one word could stop it at once?

I doubt she believed it was - by that time - in her power to accomplish anything to stop the escalating conflict, aside from the occasional stern reprimand - her silencing of the argument in the beginning of Act 3 changed nothing, the situation was the same.  It's easy to point and say "Oh she had authority over Meredith" without recognize the reality that the situation was well out of anyone's control, including hers.  She was going to stick around and try to get her people through it though, because that is her responsibility.

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Her playing the middle man escalated the issues out of everyone's power. Hiding behind the Chantry's laws just comes to show that Anders is right all along - The Chantry is NOT helping. At. All.

*struggles to hold down righteous indignance*

HolyJellyfish wrote...

She has just as much blood on her hands for doing nothing over the course of six years.

So it comes to this then.  I get to read apologetic arguments for fictional acts of terrorism that include attacking moderate positions.  That definitely proves Jennifer Hepler succeeded.

Ultimately no-one helps the situation.  Not a soul.  No-one can.  You guys are treating this like it's some logic problem, that if X does Y then Z will happen.  The Grand Cleric has no more real power tostop the crisis than she could have altered the weather. 

Who takes one look at Meredith and thinks she'll do anything because the Grand Cleric says so?  Especially in Act 3.  You know, the Act where after you side with her she decides you need a good executing too, just in case.  She'd probly write the Grand Cleric off as a thrall of Blood Magic and imprison her for "the good of the city."

In any case, arguing whether or not Elthina herself is an innocent or not innocent victim herself isn't the point.  The Chantry was filled with innocent victims.  But terrorists don't make those distinctions because to them you're on a side whether you acknowledge it or not, and you're a combatant whether you acknowledge it or not.  Anders would make the same argument, and even makes similar ones all the time - even in party banter.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 19 mars 2011 - 12:02 .

[upsettingshorts]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Since you are constantly comparing Anders to terrorism, then I'll be more than happy to compare the Grand Cleric to the Pope during N-azi Germany in WWII. Even though the Pope was well aware of the holocaust, he essentially did absolutely nothing.

That'd be fine, but neither the Allies nor the Axis destroyed Vatican City and then claimed that the Pope had it coming.

It's one thing to be critical, it's another to say she wasn't innocent and her killer was totally justified because she happened to be wrong, especially in hindsight.

HolyJellyfish wrote...

So there is your real world reference.

Your argument then is her ineffectiveness and caution earned her a death sentence?

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 19 mars 2011 - 12:04 .

[panamakira]

silver-crescent wrote...

panamakira wrote...

silver-crescent wrote...

So out of curiosity, a question to those of you who romanced Anders.

At the end of the game did you

a) kill him
tell him to leave
c) allow him to stay but end the romance
d) allow him to stay and stay together at the end
?

First playthrough
D) I don't even know why but I did. Surprising since I did not agree whatsoever with what he did but maybe I was too hopeful in thinking that perhaps his decision wasn't entirely his own but Justice's and maybe I gave him another chance to try and save him.

But really is it worth saving him when he has become a possessed radical mage that used to be Grey Warden so he has what? 15 years or so left? *sigh* Maybe I should've killed him.

More like 20 probably... but that's assuming Justice doesn't affect his lifespan, which I think he might given some of his skills from the vengeance tree - extra health regeneration and whatnot.

I guess but like I've said before. If Anders keeps going down this path, you all better get used to having Justice as a boyfriend. I doubt they'll be any Anders left as time passes by. Plus his "Calling" it's not something that's going to go away. I really doubt Justice can do anything to stop it.

That will just be cruel to watch as he's torn between a Vengeance driven demon and his "calling".

[Nivilant]

Guys, can we...y'know, get back to what the thread is about? Debates like this rarely get anywhere.

[HolyJellyfish]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

In any case, arguing whether or not Elthina herself is an innocent or not innocent victim herself isn't the point.  The Chantry was filled with innocent victims.  But terrorists don't make those distinctions because to them you're on a side whether you acknowledge it or not, and you're a combatant whether you acknowledge it or not.  Anders would make the same argument, and even makes similar ones all the time - even in party banter.

The Chantry was filled with innocent victims.

But many mages within the circle are ALSO innocent victims.

The people of Kirkwall have also been terrorized as innocent victims (the Lily Killer).

The only difference is the chantry was destroyed in a matter of minutes.

Kirkwall has been systematically terrorized for centuries.

I'm not sure how one outweighs the other. They are both atrocious. That is why I am suggesting her silence on the issue has condemned probably just as many people (if not more) over the course of god knows HOW many years compared to Anders' bomb.

I am saying she is no better than Anders. Her heart may have been in the right place, but her silence is just as damning. 

At least Anders owns up to what he did.

[Raiil]

The Grand Cleric has quite a bit of authority over templars, up to and including being the people needed to authorise a Rite of Annulment, per a codex found in Origins. The Templars are an arm the Chantry, not someone who operates independantly from there.

As I said, I won't lay what happened at her feet, and I don't think she deserved to die. But she does shoulder some of the blame for the situation. She helped- by doing nothing- to turn Kirkwall into a powder keg. Orsino and Meredith- the factional leaders- both respected and abided by her decisions and suggestions; both are horrified at her murder. While she didn't deserve her fate, she was not an innocent in the entire situation. As a leader, it was her duty to step up and defuse the situation. She chose to step back and defer responsibility to a God that her religion states has turned his back on the people.

[DeaHamlet]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

HolyJellyfish wrote...

By the way, does anyone have the video of when Hawke learns that Anders has some bad ideas concerning the Chantry (After the whole Gathering quest in Act III)?

I did that scene, and I also managed to warn the High Priestess lady (But she was an idiot and kept herself glued to the Chantry). It was through Rivalmance, and I wasn't sure if this option was still available in Friendship as well. I'd post it, but I have an Xbox 360. Not a computer.

]

Crap! I thinkI missed this D:

Is it when Vengeance takes over?

I never get the option to warn the High Priestess. D: Even on rivalry. 

No. Its right after you finish his little sidequest to gather ingredients for the "Tevinter potion."

You can question him at his clinic, and with the right selection of questions (And probably if Rival is 100%), he reveals that he plans to do something with the Chantry.

You can talk to Grand Cleric Eldina shortly after, even with Anders in your party.

Hawke is like "Anders has something planned for the Chantry. You may want to leave..."
And Eldina is all like "Nuh uh I ain't goin' no wherez."
And Anders is all like "**** WHUT!?"

After that dialogue, when I saw the Chantry go in flames, I really had no sympathy for Eldina or the church goers. I sufficiently warned her, and she did NOT take heed. In many ways, she was at as much fault as Anders was for killing all those people. She could have evacuated the church.

o.O You just making me hate that Eldina woman even more than I already despised her.  Eeep.
FLAME ON, Anders, FLAME ON!

[upsettingshorts]

HolyJellyfish wrote...

The Chantry was filled with innocent victims.

But many mages within the circle are ALSO innocent victims.

Sure, and I've said before that by the end of the game you have to choose between endorsing the police state or endorsing terrorism.  How enthusiastically your character does so is up to them, but that's the choice.

It's not a pretty one, and I'm definitely not saying that either side is "right."  Just that given such an outcome, as reasonable people I feel like the reasonable characters ought to be given a better shake than to be called senile or blind.  They were living in the world, too, they just didn't have as much enthusiasm for destroying it as everyone else.

This entire line of discussion reeks of blaming the victim.  The fact that they were warned - vaguely - of danger is totally irrelevant.

HolyJellyfish wrote...

At least Anders owns up to what he did.

To me and to my first character, this couldn't count for less.

Modifié par Upsettingshorts, 19 mars 2011 - 12:10 .

[HolyJellyfish]

Upsettingshorts wrote...

HolyJellyfish wrote...

So there is your real world reference.

Your argument then is her ineffectiveness and caution earned her a death sentence?

As much a death sentence as she unintentionally granted god knows how many innocent mages, templars, and citizens by not saying a darn thing to Meredith or Orsino over the course of a decade.

She's not a blameless victim. She has a lot of blood on her hands.

[maselphie]

 I think Elthina was a martyr as much as Anders.

Nivilant wrote...
Guys, can we...y'know, get back to what the thread is about? Debates like this rarely get anywhere.

WAT! ANDERS ISN'T HIS REAL NAME!?!?! 

Kittens!



How did Anders know that the party was "threatening" his "sanctum of healing" when you first meet him? I mean, Justice is obviously the one saying that, but did he get word to fear you, or just anybody he doesn't invite gets that warm welcome?

[TripLight]

This page needs MOAR Anders...(or whatever his real name is)

Gala:

[panamakira]

In a way Hawke was at fault too if you were playing him/her as a mediator. I started playing Hawke as someone who understood the mages suffering but did not condmen all those that belonged to the Chantry. Weren't we all forced to choose a side by Act 3? wether we wanted it or not?

The Grand Cleric didn't get that choice like we did. Isntead she was killed with a bunch of innocents that were in Chantry. Don't care about the Grand Cleric. Fine. I cared for those innocents Anders killed in that Chantry. That action made him no better than crazy ass Meredith.

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind." I don't see how that is going to make it better.

[Raiil]

maselphie wrote...

 I think Elthina was a martyr as much as Anders.

Nivilant wrote...
Guys, can we...y'know, get back to what the thread is about? Debates like this rarely get anywhere.

WAT! ANDERS ISN'T HIS REAL NAME!?!?! 

Kittens!



How did Anders know that the party was "threatening" his "sanctum of healing" when you first meet him? I mean, Justice is obviously the one saying that, but did he get word to fear you, or just anybody he doesn't invite gets that warm welcome?

A bunch of reasonably healthy and well-armed people saunter in your dirt poor hospital?


I'd be a little nervous too.

[Trophonius]

Nivilant wrote...

Bahahaha!  The Awakening banter was just awesome. Although the only one that made me cringe slightly was Oghren's crack about the 'big Templar man'. That one made me double-take... and then I laughed anyway.

*sighs* I know it's a stock response, but my male Hawke threatening the blood mages that took his Anders away... oh that made me squee so hard I almost combusted. I think I like the idea of Warrior Hawke with Anders because of the Medic/Heavy dynamic. If you have two mages then some jerk with a sword can get in close and ruin your day. Also, Mage Hawke has a stake in it from the start, with warrior or rogue there's really not as much keeping him there so it makes it seem sweeter (to me anyway). Still, I like the appeal of the old lover and the new (Nate and Hawke respectively) joining forces to make our broken mage's life happy again. Yes, it's pretty much personal canon now. I can't help it.

Hmm. Germany huh? I suppose years in Fereldan alters any accent they might have. I've known people whose accents have changed in less than five years.

Names...? *tries not to run through all the German power metal bands she loves*

Oh god, Oghren's templar joke. I didn't get it at first, but when you put Anders' revelation of how lucky he was to escape rape and torture by the templars into context, it starts to sound a little disturbing. No wonder he went, "eww".

Was that the part where Anders gets abducted? I never got that scene because Bethany/Carver always survives in the Deep Roads. I guess I should go to work then. My first character was a mage m!Hawke so his and Anders' dynamic felt real. There was a whole lot more emotional investment from Anders, who genuinely wants to protect both himself and Hawke from unscrupulous templars. Of course, the healer/warrior pairing has its appeal too and I've always wanted to see it implemented in a same sex relationship. Either way, Garrett gets to run away with his apostate boyfriend. Just like his mom. XD

Agreed about old lover/new lover. I always thought Nathaniel was one of the very few people who can cheer him up. It looked to be the case with the way they act towards each other in DA2. When he mentioned his bitterness towards the Grey Wardens, I was intially afraid that his perception of Nate was going to be equally volatile. I'm glad I was wrong.

[maselphie]

I wish I could "Like" posts.

[Ryzaki]

DeaHamlet wrote...

HolyJellyfish wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

HolyJellyfish wrote...

By the way, does anyone have the video of when Hawke learns that Anders has some bad ideas concerning the Chantry (After the whole Gathering quest in Act III)?

I did that scene, and I also managed to warn the High Priestess lady (But she was an idiot and kept herself glued to the Chantry). It was through Rivalmance, and I wasn't sure if this option was still available in Friendship as well. I'd post it, but I have an Xbox 360. Not a computer.

]

Crap! I thinkI missed this D:

Is it when Vengeance takes over?

I never get the option to warn the High Priestess. D: Even on rivalry. 

No. Its right after you finish his little sidequest to gather ingredients for the "Tevinter potion."

You can question him at his clinic, and with the right selection of questions (And probably if Rival is 100%), he reveals that he plans to do something with the Chantry.

You can talk to Grand Cleric Eldina shortly after, even with Anders in your party.

Hawke is like "Anders has something planned for the Chantry. You may want to leave..."
And Eldina is all like "Nuh uh I ain't goin' no wherez."
And Anders is all like "**** WHUT!?"

After that dialogue, when I saw the Chantry go in flames, I really had no sympathy for Eldina or the church goers. I sufficiently warned her, and she did NOT take heed. In many ways, she was at as much fault as Anders was for killing all those people. She could have evacuated the church.

o.O You just making me hate that Eldina woman even more than I already despised her.  Eeep.
FLAME ON, Anders, FLAME ON!

And any sympathy I had for the woman has gone out the window. 

I still feel sorry for the other priests in there but damnit she was warned multiple times to leave. She was to stay there doing NOTHING. What point is she serving being there doing jacksquat?