Ryzaki wrote...
Ignoring an optional ending is childish? What kind of logic is that?
Modifié par SurelyForth, 13 avril 2011 - 02:24 .
SurelyForth wrote...
Ryzaki wrote...
Ignoring an optional ending is childish? What kind of logic is that?
To me ignoring any aspect of a universe/story/character is childish because...it's there. It's the potential of a character, it's the potential of a story. Those things matter to me, even if it makes me dislike a character I loved or appreciate a character I was hellbent on despising (like Anora).
Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 avril 2011 - 03:08 .
sassperella wrote...
Think of it as Bioware's guilt;) My Hawke would be in Darktown helping Anders in his clinic and helping everyone she could.
SurelyForth wrote...
So you don't see anything of Anders left in the end?
I feel like I am missing something when people say this. He's absolutely not empty in the friendmance ending.He's grateful that you spare him, excited that he gets to help defend the mages. He has conversations with the other companions that sound pretty much the same as conversations he has throughout the game. When you talk to him in the Gallows he obviously has dreams, a purpose, and it's the one that Anders has wanted from the moment you meet him in Awakening.
It's also clear that he still cares for Hawke, whether he's romanced or not, and he's genuinely happy when Hawke says that s/he'll stay beside him. This is also very much Anders, because Justice would not give a good goddamn whether Hawke lives, dies or runs away to Antiva with Zevran and Isabela.
I just don't see how anyone could say that a person who hopes and loves in an empty husk.
RinjiRenee wrote...
He's not so much a husk as he is perfectly in sync with Justice, something like "Janders" if you will. He has not let Justice take over his body completely, but his soul is working in harmony with Justice rather than trying to fight it. He's not defeated, he's merely in agreement with Justice. "I took a spirit into my soul in order to achieve this."
My Hawke was a little sad about it, but it was not like he was ever going to have a normal life with the guy anyway. They can fight for the cause together, which IS ultimately more important (to them).
Modifié par silver-crescent, 13 avril 2011 - 02:29 .
YamiSnuffles wrote...
If it had been up to me, my Hawke wouldn't have even lived in the estate. She would have bought it for her mom, because Leandra really wanted it, but that's it. Gamlen and Leandra could live there (and Bodahn and Sandal too). Hawke meanwhile would have gotten something smaller out in the country. The house in Hightown was way too big for my liking and way too... in Kirkwall for my liking, haha.
So, had I had my way, Anders and Hawke would have been living in a nice little place out of crazyville and Hawke would have definitely been helping more in between acts. Alas, she was forced to live the life of a noble and become strangely apathetic whenever she was out of my control.
Oh, and kittens. There would have been a kitten farm outside the house. Or inside it maybe.
Ryzaki wrote...
SurelyForth wrote...
Ryzaki wrote...
Ignoring an optional ending is childish? What kind of logic is that?
To me ignoring any aspect of a universe/story/character is childish because...it's there. It's the potential of a character, it's the potential of a story. Those things matter to me, even if it makes me dislike a character I loved or appreciate a character I was hellbent on despising (like Anora).
That doesn't make something childish. At all. It's potential but ignoring potential (espcecially when due to the very nature of games itself may be impossible/make no sense in your version of the universe) doesn't indictate maturity.
I understand it mattering to you. And frankly I do know some people like that. But that's not really a sign of maturity. Just interest in different paths and alternate views.
And at the end of the day this story has alternate stories depending on what you do. Everything doesn't blend together. Rival Anders is a different person than Friendship Anders.
Modifié par Dasha Dreyson, 13 avril 2011 - 02:32 .
Purposeof-Flight wrote...
YamiSnuffles wrote...
If it had been up to me, my Hawke wouldn't have even lived in the estate. She would have bought it for her mom, because Leandra really wanted it, but that's it. Gamlen and Leandra could live there (and Bodahn and Sandal too). Hawke meanwhile would have gotten something smaller out in the country. The house in Hightown was way too big for my liking and way too... in Kirkwall for my liking, haha.
So, had I had my way, Anders and Hawke would have been living in a nice little place out of crazyville and Hawke would have definitely been helping more in between acts. Alas, she was forced to live the life of a noble and become strangely apathetic whenever she was out of my control.
Oh, and kittens. There would have been a kitten farm outside the house. Or inside it maybe.
Hell, i would've just moved Gamlen, Leandra, and everyone into the Estate, then just stay at Gamlen's house. And CLEAN IT.
Lowtown's more my Hawke's style, anyway. Haha closer to Varric<3
Sialater wrote...
Not really. Rival Anders is the same person as Friendship Anders. Only thing that's changed is his relationship to Justice.
But then, Surely and I are looking at it like writers where the character is a multifaceted jewel. But I don't think she was saying she wanted the rivalry ending to go away. (Right?)
Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 avril 2011 - 02:36 .
Sialater wrote...
Not really. Rival Anders is the same person as Friendship Anders. Only thing that's changed is his relationship to Justice.
But then, Surely and I are looking at it like writers where the character is a multifaceted jewel. But I don't think she was saying she wanted the rivalry ending to go away. (Right?)
Dasha Dreyson wrote...
Hmm... I really shouldn't put more in, but here it is anyway since my willpower is weak:
Most writers have a ton of material about characters/stories/etc that never make it into the final cut. They may have pages of short stories that tell them a character's motivations, why they have a quirk, etc. Some even write side-stories to have a brief aside that they never want the backstory revealed to the audience. It's there, the audience just usually doesn't have the luxury of having access to it.
Ryzaki wrote...
Sialater wrote...
Not really. Rival Anders is the same person as Friendship Anders. Only thing that's changed is his relationship to Justice.
But then, Surely and I are looking at it like writers where the character is a multifaceted jewel. But I don't think she was saying she wanted the rivalry ending to go away. (Right?)
Rival Anders may have been (as you said) a borderline abusive relationship for the last 6 years. He's constantly told what he did was wrong. (this is assuming romance). Rival Anders may have killed a girl, while friendship Anders didn't (or vice versa), Rival Anders is having blackouts and is losing control of himself, Rival Anders didn't want to blow up the Chantry.
His relationship with Justice effects a lot of other things considering Justice can hijack his body. HIs mental state is not the same and that does make a huge difference to me.
Rival Anders and Friend Anders don't have the same mental state. Rival Anders is a hot mess and Friendship Anders is calm and at peace. This condition didn't happen because of one decision but over a multitude of years.
Ah I don't see the character's that way. To me the characters are standing in a room of colored and distorted mirrors (like those funhouse mirrors in themeparks). Each mirror represents a different universe. They're all reflecting something similar but they're not all the same.
Dasha Dreyson wrote...
Hmm... I really shouldn't put more in, but here it is anyway since my willpower is weak:
Most writers have a ton of material about characters/stories/etc that never make it into the final cut. They may have pages of short stories that tell them a character's motivations, why they have a quirk, etc. Some even write side-stories to have a brief aside that they never want the backstory revealed to the audience. It's there, the audience just usually doesn't have the luxury of having access to it.
Sialater wrote...
The facets of the jewel act in the same way, but the jewel is still the same at it's core.
Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 avril 2011 - 02:44 .
YamiSnuffles wrote...
If it had been up to me, my Hawke wouldn't have even lived in the estate. She would have bought it for her mom, because Leandra really wanted it, but that's it. Gamlen and Leandra could live there (and Bodahn and Sandal too). Hawke meanwhile would have gotten something smaller out in the country. The house in Hightown was way too big for my liking and way too... in Kirkwall for my liking, haha.
So, had I had my way, Anders and Hawke would have been living in a nice little place out of crazyville and Hawke would have definitely been helping more in between acts. Alas, she was forced to live the life of a noble and become strangely apathetic whenever she was out of my control.
Oh, and kittens. There would have been a kitten farm outside the house. Or inside it maybe.
Ryzaki wrote...
Sialater wrote...
The facets of the jewel act in the same way, but the jewel is still the same at it's core.
I don't see it that way.
The facets of the jewel are the same whole. They exist in the same universe. The same isn't true of Rival Anders and Frendship Anders.
To me the jewel thing is more comparable to a friendship friendship/romance friendship thing.
That said I fail at analogies so I might just not be getting it.
But Anders core is entwined with justice to me. And on the Rivalry path that core is being split apart while on Friendship it's merging together cleanly.
Okay, I'll bite. Alternate storylines can contrict each other. Character develop in stories often happen because of both experience and outside influences. Change the outside influence and the personal development can change. If they are two different development arcs, the characters turn out drastically different.Ryzaki wrote...
Dasha Dreyson wrote...
Hmm... I really shouldn't put more in, but here it is anyway since my willpower is weak:
Most writers have a ton of material about characters/stories/etc that never make it into the final cut. They may have pages of short stories that tell them a character's motivations, why they have a quirk, etc. Some even write side-stories to have a brief aside that they never want the backstory revealed to the audience. It's there, the audience just usually doesn't have the luxury of having access to it.
True. But does the story usually make little sense if they remove that backstory? Or contradict info that they already had?
Modifié par Dasha Dreyson, 13 avril 2011 - 02:48 .
Sialater wrote...
OK, let me see if I can explain it better.
When you're looking at the character, you're looking front on, and you only see the facets immediately within your vision. The other facets are still there, they still make up the character and are part of the character, but they're only apparent after you've turned the jewel and studied it. The more facets a character has, the more complex the character.
Rivalmanced and Friendmanced Anders are still the same person. They are just different groups of facets that are visible to each beholder. There is no alternate reality, just potential.
Modifié par Inzhuna, 13 avril 2011 - 02:53 .
Dasha Dreyson wrote...
Okay, I'll bite. Alternate storylines can contrict each other. Character develop in stories often happen because of both experience and outside influences. Change the outside influence and the personal development can change. If they are two different development arcs, the characters turn out drastically different.
In the terms of novel writing, an author must choose how much character development gets included in the story. In the final story there is one character arc (assuming the character changes and grows during the story). That doesn't mean that the author hasn't written an entirely other account where that character hasn't gone crazy, maybe pushed over the edge. Maybe they had a draft with a happily ever after. Maybe a character was written with a development arc one way and it was changed after receiving a rejection letter. These were all possibilities and potential for the character. The reader doesn't get access to all this.
Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 avril 2011 - 02:50 .
Ryzaki wrote...
Sialater wrote...
OK, let me see if I can explain it better.
When you're looking at the character, you're looking front on, and you only see the facets immediately within your vision. The other facets are still there, they still make up the character and are part of the character, but they're only apparent after you've turned the jewel and studied it. The more facets a character has, the more complex the character.
Rivalmanced and Friendmanced Anders are still the same person. They are just different groups of facets that are visible to each beholder. There is no alternate reality, just potential.
Okay now I get it.
Thanks for the explanation. I'm type dense at times.
I do disagree about the altnerate reality bit (hey it wouldn't be me if I didn't diagree with something). Because of the nature of these games. Rival Anders and Friendship Anders can't coexist in the same game. (not without the game bugging out) and to me each game is in its own universe. The base for each part may exist but the wholes can't coexist.
Threeparts wrote...
Also, a few pages back there was a conversation about what the main plot of DA2 was and it being a character-driven story. I agree with that, and would also like the add that we're living someone's biography more than working towards a specific end. That there are ends that are achieved is part of what makes that life interesting, and that they are important ends is what makes Hawke's story overall one worth telling.
The Warden was recruited for a purpose: once Duncan learned about the Warden's prowess, and the Warden's life was endangered, the story was set. You would become a Grey Warden, a role with a very specific duty to fulfill: Kill darkspawn. Save the world. Every major thing you did in DA:O was to achieve that end, and making friends and falling in love were just things that happened along the way.
Hawke? Not so much. Hawke's just this fella who's trying to get along in life, and sometimes has to make difficult or dangerous decisions in order to keep his or her head above water.
We know that Hawke's path is set, but as far as Hawke is concerned, things just keep happening and s/he just has to keep dealing with it. S/he might be living a charmed life or living a cursed life, but it's far more obvious when you look at Hawke's tale that s/he's something special. Whether it's the hand of the Maker, Flemeth's machinations, or a coincidence that s/he's living in interesting times hasn't been revealed yet, but Hawke's actions are going to reverberate around the world, even while s/he's just standing there in the ruins, looking startled and asking, "What did I do?"
They're totally different stories. I enjoy both the Warden's epic triumph (both in killing the demon and becoming the Grey Warden), and Hawke's blundering into a life of greatness. One makes me cheer and view the Warden with respect, the other makes me think, "This could have happened to anyone and, gee golly gosh, I'm glad it wasn't me."
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