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[silver-crescent]

Ryzaki wrote...

Kelli: Blessed art thou who exists in the sight of the Maker.. [She's praying to herself.]

Go figure, she really was a religious nutjob 

Modifié par silver-crescent, 13 avril 2011 - 08:04 .

[Ninche]

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

Ninche wrote...

silver-crescent wrote...

Are you talking about the girl at the circle with Wynne?

That type of self loathing behaviour is awful, just another reason why the Chantry needed to change

It's very similar to what happens with some very religious gay people, unfortunately.

And then you get those groups that try to "fix" sexuality through finding god.

Pray the gay away.

Ugh sickening. And some other religions actually still have "facillitites" meant to electro-shock the gay out of you. Along with other "procedures"

[mellifera]

My issue isn't really with tranquilty itself as much as agency. Which is basically my issue with everything in the game/IRL. Me gusta choice, no me gusta when people aren't even given the chance to make choices.

Modifié par yukidama, 13 avril 2011 - 08:08 .

[Ryzaki]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...
The Chantry's whole "ZOMG MAGIC IS EVIL YOU ARE ALL EVIL" schtick is a huge part of why my Warden is a Liberatarian and looks up to Morrigan and Flemeth, and why Anders manages to convince my more selfish Hawke that his cause is worth putting her life on the line.

And I think my Warden would get along just fine with yours.  She's sweet and kind-hearted and positively wonderful. But she's also headstrong and proud, with no patience for Keilli's sort of willing accomplice syndrome.  My Hawke, on the other hand...yeah.  She's got a few groups of people she cares about, and everyone else can go f*** themselves.  She's a bit of a psycho.

Bleh. Even my Wardens (the ones that didn't buy that crap) wanted to just punch someone when they started harping about that. And my characters are mostly pacifists. Though they couldn't stand Morrigan. Too more arrogance for too little reason. Flemeth though. They admired her. She saved their life, was a powerful magic user, she was manipulative and cunning but she didn't hide behind anyone else and she wasn't cruel to be petty. (And no they didn't buy that "taking over Morrigan's body" spiel because they trusted Morrigan as far as they could throw the circle tower). 

My Hawkes though...I don't think any of them react well to Chantry boom. They then see him as everything a mage *shouldn't* be. As much as Meredith isn't what a templar should be. They believe in freedom with restrictions. (But they also want those abuses in the circle stopped). They are horrifed at the circle abuses but seeing all the madness free mages have caused (Quentin in particular) they just can't justify no circle at all. 

Aw. I love nice Wardens . 

Your Hawke sounds scary. Very scary. 

[Halinu]

On the subject of tranquility, I suppose it depends on the circumstance. If the person feared for themselves and others and honestly did not WANT to be a mage any longer, tranquility would be an alternative that they could live with and not be such a scary thing. They would be going into the decision with full knowledge of the outcome.

What scares me is when tranquility is forced on a mage. If the decision is made FOR them, that makes it a sad and upsetting thing. Also, in Kirkwall, they were making mages who had passed their Harrowing tranquil and that's just even worse. :/

[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

I remember playing my Surana as the type of "I'm a monster. Magic is my curse, and the Maker hates me... e.t.c." guy, up until he met Zev.
Antivan Assassins make wonderful therapists at times. must be the milk sandwiches XD

[Ryzaki]

RinjiRenee wrote...
Well, I mean that in a more counseling way, like "Okay, let's discuss why you want to be made Tranquil."  They can ultimately turn down their request.

Ah. I guess a FE would feel like crap if a mage begged to be made tranquil, they refused a few days later said mage killed themself. 

[silver-crescent]

Ninche wrote...

silver-crescent wrote...

Are you talking about the girl at the circle with Wynne?

That type of self loathing behaviour is awful, just another reason why the Chantry needed to change

It's very similar to what happens with some very religious gay people, unfortunately.

And then you get those groups that try to "fix" sexuality through finding god. 

I agree totally. You know, probably THE worst thing about the whole mage situation is the social stigma. Families get shamed if they birth a child with magic, children get stripped of titles and taken away forever. In order to avoid further shame the families are (to put it mildly) discouraged to seek out the child or attempt to get in contact with them. Maker forbid if they attempt to help them out if they flee the Circle. In some cases (like Kirkwall) mages' families get "raided"

Surely alot of grief would be avoided if the children mages are allowed to KEEP IN TOUCH with their family? Perhaps visit (if) when they pass their Harrowing? IF magic wasn't viewed as this horrible curse? 

Anders himself used to be a "devout Andrastian"  so it must have been terribly hard for him to suddenly realise  that his maker has cursed him and hates everything he is. It actually makes me sad when he reads his manifesto and tries to convince Hawke why the maker wouldn't actually despise mages. His trembling voice breaks my heart. 

 I understand the need for mages to be trained and carefully observed until they have learnt how to resist demons etc. but why the whole chantry-initiated hate? There's no need. 

Who knows, the whole prohibiting mages from being with their families might just be a way for the Chantry to vilify them further. If visits were possible, I'm sure people would easily see mages are people just like everyone else and not monsters that need to be constantly locked away.

[Ninche]

Halinu wrote...

On the subject of tranquility, I suppose it depends on the circumstance. If the person feared for themselves and others and honestly did not WANT to be a mage any longer, tranquility would be an alternative that they could live with and not be such a scary thing. They would be going into the decision with full knowledge of the outcome.

What scares me is when tranquility is forced on a mage. If the decision is made FOR them, that makes it a sad and upsetting thing. Also, in Kirkwall, they were making mages who had passed their Harrowing tranquil and that's just even worse. :/

That's why I think we overall agree that Meredith was totally insane and should have just been removed from her position by Elthina looooooong time before Chantry Boom. 

[Lady Bibble]

You know what, probably the single main reason I sympathize with mages in this series (even though I never seem to play them) is the fact that the Chantry just pisses me off. Perhaps my personal religious views are coming into play, but I tend to dislike any religious order that purposely stigmatizes a specific group. It's like how old school christianity had a hatred for the Jewish people for what their ancestors did to Jesus.


BTW, that was merely a comparison...I don't want to start a flame war.

[Sable Rhapsody]

yukidama wrote...

Me gusta choice, no me gusta when people aren't given the chance to make choices.

THIS.  100% this.  Tranquility should always be a choice if the mage really wants it.  But like the saarebas in Shepherding Wolves says, it is not choice if it is imposed.

Ryzaki wrote...

Your Hawke sounds scary. Very scary. 

I love her to little bits--she's one of my most complex and interesting CRPG characters.  But the original concept for the character came from ATLA's Princess Azula; it evolved a great deal from there, but still.  She is absolutely f***ing terrifying.

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

silver-crescent wrote...

Ninche wrote...

silver-crescent wrote...

Are you talking about the girl at the circle with Wynne?

That type of self loathing behaviour is awful, just another reason why the Chantry needed to change

It's very similar to what happens with some very religious gay people, unfortunately.

And then you get those groups that try to "fix" sexuality through finding god. 

I agree totally. You know, probably THE worst thing about the whole mage situation is the social stigma. Families get shamed if they birth a child with magic, children get stripped of titles and taken away forever. In order to avoid further shame the families are (to put it mildly) discouraged to seek out the child or attempt to get in contact with them. Maker forbid if they attempt to help them out if they flee the Circle. In some cases (like Kirkwall) mages' families get "raided"

Surely alot of grief would be avoided if the children mages are allowed to KEEP IN TOUCH with their family? Perhaps visit (if) when they pass their Harrowing? IF magic wasn't viewed as this horrible curse? 

Anders himself used to be a "devout Andrastian"  so it must have been terribly hard for him to suddenly realise  that his maker has cursed him and hates everything he is. It actually makes me sad when he reads his manifesto and tries to convince Hawke why the maker wouldn't actually despise mages. His trembling voice breaks my heart. 

 I understand the need for mages to be trained and carefully observed until they have learnt how to resist demons etc. but why the whole chantry-initiated hate? There's no need. 

Who knows, the whole prohibiting mages from being with their families might just be a way for the Chantry to vilify them further. If visits were possible, I'm sure people would easily see mages are people just like everyone else and not monsters that need to be constantly locked away.

Thing is doesn't Hawke's mum mention seeing Bethany in the Circle? I could have sworn she did.

[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

yukidama wrote...

My issue isn't really with tranquilty itself as much as agency. Which is basically my issue with everything in the game/IRL. Me gusta choice, no me gusta when people aren't even given the chance to make choices.

Seconding this.

I wish there had been an option for a depressed Hawke to tell Anders that sometimes (s)he wished (s)he was tranquil. The reaction would be something to behold.

Hell, if the choice was present in real life, I'd take it.

[Amondra]

silver-crescent wrote...

Ninche wrote...

silver-crescent wrote...

Are you talking about the girl at the circle with Wynne?

That type of self loathing behaviour is awful, just another reason why the Chantry needed to change

It's very similar to what happens with some very religious gay people, unfortunately.

And then you get those groups that try to "fix" sexuality through finding god. 

I agree totally. You know, probably THE worst thing about the whole mage situation is the social stigma. Families get shamed if they birth a child with magic, children get stripped of titles and taken away forever. In order to avoid further shame the families are (to put it mildly) discouraged to seek out the child or attempt to get in contact with them. Maker forbid if they attempt to help them out if they flee the Circle. In some cases (like Kirkwall) mages' families get "raided"

Surely alot of grief would be avoided if the children mages are allowed to KEEP IN TOUCH with their family? Perhaps visit (if) when they pass their Harrowing? IF magic wasn't viewed as this horrible curse? 

Anders himself used to be a "devout Andrastian"  so it must have been terribly hard for him to suddenly realise  that his maker has cursed him and hates everything he is. It actually makes me sad when he reads his manifesto and tries to convince Hawke why the maker wouldn't actually despise mages. His trembling voice breaks my heart. 

 I understand the need for mages to be trained and carefully observed until they have learnt how to resist demons etc. but why the whole chantry-initiated hate? There's no need. 

Who knows, the whole prohibiting mages from being with their families might just be a way for the Chantry to vilify them further. If visits were possible, I'm sure people would easily see mages are people just like everyone else and not monsters that need to be constantly locked away.

I can't begin to go into how much I agree with that.  I also think mages wouldn't go to some of the lengths they do if people looked at them as if they were people too.  The want to feel loved and needed is powerful and can drive people to do things they said they would never do.

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

I think they need a field trip once in a while. Conjugal visits. Maybe a bit of a run in a the dog run outside the tower.

[Rinji the Bearded]

yukidama wrote...

My issue isn't really with tranquilty itself as much as agency. Which is basically my issue with everything in the game/IRL. Me gusta choice, no me gusta when people aren't even given the chance to make choices.

Me gusta choice también.

[leggywillow]

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

silver-crescent wrote...
Who knows, the whole prohibiting mages from being with their families might just be a way for the Chantry to vilify them further. If visits were possible, I'm sure people would easily see mages are people just like everyone else and not monsters that need to be constantly locked away.

Thing is doesn't Hawke's mum mention seeing Bethany in the Circle? I could have sworn she did.

Yes, she does.  They probably aren't that frequent, though, and I bet they're tied to her status.  Bribes and a noble title can probably go a long way in bullying your way into visiting your daughter in the Circle.

[MelfinaofOutlawStar]

leggywillow wrote...

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

silver-crescent wrote...
Who knows, the whole prohibiting mages from being with their families might just be a way for the Chantry to vilify them further. If visits were possible, I'm sure people would easily see mages are people just like everyone else and not monsters that need to be constantly locked away.

Thing is doesn't Hawke's mum mention seeing Bethany in the Circle? I could have sworn she did.

Yes, she does.  They probably aren't that frequent, though, and I bet they're tied to her status.  Bribes and a noble title can probably go a long way in bullying your way into visiting your daughter in the Circle.

I dunno, titles seem to matter not in the affairs of mages.

[Jean]

I never played Witch Hunt but wasn't Finn close to his parents still while in the Circle?

[Ryzaki]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...
I love her to little bits--she's one of my most complex and interesting CRPG characters.  But the original concept for the character came from ATLA's Princess Azula; it evolved a great deal from there, but still.  She is absolutely f***ing terrifying.

The closest I have to that is Leon. But he's not terrifying in the in your face way. Oh no. He'll smile tell you what you want to hear be there for you, and before you know it you're completely ensnared in his trap and never even realize it. You start doing things you wouldn't usually consider because he wants it, just a smile or a frown from him will make decisions for you because before you know it you crave approval from him.

I'm not sure whether to make him a very charismatic warrior or a bloodmage. 

And he cares about no one other than himself. You'd never know it from talking to him though. 

Modifié par Ryzaki, 13 avril 2011 - 08:18 .

[thebrute7]

Sable Rhapsody wrote...

yukidama wrote...

Me gusta choice, no me gusta when people aren't given the chance to make choices.

THIS.  100% this.  Tranquility should always be a choice if the mage really wants it.  But like the saarebas in Shepherding Wolves says, it is not choice if it is imposed.

Ryzaki wrote...

Your Hawke sounds scary. Very scary. 

I love her to little bits--she's one of my most complex and interesting CRPG characters.  But the original concept for the character came from ATLA's Princess Azula; it evolved a great deal from there, but still.  She is absolutely f***ing terrifying.

Your Hawke sounds a lot like mine (from my story). 
Evalyn is a very nice person most of the time, but you threaten something she loves.   **** just hit the fan!  It's not really a screw everyone attitude, it is more if you get int eh way of the people she loves you are as good as dead.    So   when it comes to that situation she is very screw everyone Bethany's in danger.  (Bethany in particualr)  Of course it might have something to do with the fact she has a spirit of Love floating around in her head that just loves it when she lets her love for her family (and Anders and Varric)  take over.

[Ninche]

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

I think they need a field trip once in a while. Conjugal visits. Maybe a bit of a run in a the dog run outside the tower.

Oh you know the ferelden mages weren't even allowed to go for walks in the courtyard after someone tried to make a run for it? I wonder if that was Anders

[Rinji the Bearded]

Batteries wrote...

I never played Witch Hunt but wasn't Finn close to his parents still while in the Circle?

Yeah, I'm not sure why that is, or it might be that I can't remember.

off topic but I <3 Finn.

Modifié par RinjiRenee, 13 avril 2011 - 08:19 .

[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

I think they need a field trip once in a while. Conjugal visits. Maybe a bit of a run in a the dog run outside the tower.

Maybe instead of the Circle of Magi, they could make it like a boarding school.
Supervised field trips, visiting home for the holidays (the local Chantry can keep a quiet eye on them if they wish).
They could even try training mages and templars together, and maybe partnering them up to encourage co-existance?

And after all that there's a final exam (a.k.a. The Harrowing). Or you can choose Tranquility or death.
Maybe they should create some kind of license, showing the mage passed and is considered safe enough for society.

Mages could work as enchanters, mercenaries, scholars or healers or something...

[Ryzaki]

MelfinaofOutlawStar wrote...

I think they need a field trip once in a while. Conjugal visits. Maybe a bit of a run in a the dog run outside the tower.

This is utterlyhorrible but I'm laughing hysterically. Damn you!