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[Jean]

Threeparts wrote...

YamiSnuffles wrote...

While we're talking about the Circles, what kind of system do you think Anders would want?

On the one hand, he seems intrigued by Tevinter but that mostly seems- to me- to be an interest sparked by the fact that mages are free there. On the other hand, from what I could tell, he didn't seem to want to set up a new Tevinter. I say this because he seems offended by the idea that mage freedom=Tevinter. He's also obviously against blood magic and doesn't seem to want mages ruling over everyone. Further, he does note (I think in a conversation with Bethany) that the Circles are one of the only good places for a magical education.

I think he would still approve of having Circles around as schools but not having them exist as they do now. So more Hogwarts, less prison. Obviously he'd also want an end to nearly everyone in Thedas being taught mages are intrinsically evil and cursed. I don't think he would object to mages being policed either since he has no problem taking out evil mages.

He says when you give him the amulet gift in Act II that he's never really thought about what life would be like in the Imperium, and this is after a few years of his crusading. So I think we can safely say that, whatever is in that manifesto of his, it's not based on Tevinter ideals.
I think you're right: he wants decent training for mages in an enviroment that allows for family, community and the freedom to live a normal life. Whether he believes this would happen in settlements built specifically to house mages and their families away from those who would harm them, or if he envisions mage and mundane living side-by-side in harmony is one of the many things I, personally, would love to sit down and discuss with him.

Man, a conversation on the freedom of mages and accompanying philosophical, religious and political issues with Anders would be awesome, especially if there was tea and cake to go with it. I wouldn't even try to jump him, I just want to know what's fizzing away inside that head of his.

I really wanted to be able to read his manifesto just to see what he's got running around in his head.

Then I wanted a writer to write it since you don't really get much in the game.

If it was me talking about religion issues in Thedas, I'd probably be spontaneously going justice-mode from my over dramatic self. Difference would be is that I'd argue the Maker never existed.
That would cause some problems in that world, I think.

[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

Lady Jess wrote...

thebrute7 wrote...

Sometimes?  I daresay it is all the time.  As far as the chantry is oncerned mages are not people.  Templars rape mages with no repercusions, they are taught that they are cursed from birth, their god hates them, everyone outside hates them, they are living portals for demons, abominations just waiting to happen, and if you don't do what we tell you we'll take away all of your emotions.

All the time.

And heaven help you if you're a spirit healer. Ever read that description? I'll grab a screenshot, but..they're actually FEARED because they have a closer connection to the fade or something.

I think spirit healers use their abilities by reaching into the fade and summoning a benevolent spirit for aid, or something.

It's funny that blood magic would be the "evil" school, when it's the one and only school of magic that actually has sod all to do with demons or the fade. All its power comes from the physical, mortal world. (As far as my knowledge goes, anyway. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/angry.png[/smilie])

Modifié par Dreaming-in-Shadow, 14 avril 2011 - 05:12 .

[tmp7704]

Lady Jess wrote...

And heaven help you if you're a spirit healer. Ever read that description? I'll grab a screenshot, but..they're actually FEARED because they have a closer connection to the fade or something.

They are feared because they have actual Fade spirit merged with them, which is small step up from having Fade demon occupy the same place. And how blurred that distinction can become should be most obvious here given it's Anders thread.

[thebrute7]

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

thebrute7 wrote...

Sometimes?  I daresay it is all the time.  As far as the chantry is oncerned mages are not people.  Templars rape mages with no repercusions, they are taught that they are cursed from birth, their god hates them, everyone outside hates them, they are living portals for demons, abominations just waiting to happen, and if you don't do what we tell you we'll take away all of your emotions.

All the time.

And heaven help you if you're a spirit healer. Ever read that description? I'll grab a screenshot, but..they're actually FEARED because they have a closer connection to the fade or something.

I think spirit healers use their abilities by reaching into the fade and summoning a benevolent spirit for aid, or something.

It's funny that blood magic would be the "evil" school, when it's the one and only school of magic that actually has sod all to do with demons or the fade. All its power comes from the physical, mortal world. (As far as my knowledge goes, anyway. )

The issue with blood magic is that it can be used to control minds, and in almost all cases it is learned from making a deal with a demon, or from someone who made a deal with a demon.  Blood mages attract greater attention from demons making them a greater risk of possesion and I think this is the biggest one...  Templars can't stop you from using it.  They can drain a mages mana, they can keep a mage from forming a spell with mana (I.E. the door in the phylactery repository in DAO) but they can't stop a mage from casting from their blood.  Thus they fear blood magic and ban it. 

[Dunizel]

YamiSnuffles wrote...
 Obviously he doesn't need to convince a friend Hawke as much as a rival Hawke, but it would have been awesome to get a friendly version of that. And not just because he sounds adorable reading his manifesto.

That's it!
Instead of Orsino, a puppy eyed Anders reading his manifesto at the start of Act3 would have persuaded poor and noble people alike, they would even shed tears maybe. Who could resist that? 

[thebrute7]

tmp7704 wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

And heaven help you if you're a spirit healer. Ever read that description? I'll grab a screenshot, but..they're actually FEARED because they have a closer connection to the fade or something.

They are feared because they have actual Fade spirit merged with them, which is small step up from having Fade demon occupy the same place. And how blurred that distinction can become should be most obvious here given it's Anders thread.

I thought wynne was a special cas eof spirit healer.  I got the feeling most spirit healers gained aid from a fade spirit, but the spirit didn't actually merge with them.

[ladyofpayne]

Thank youy, Bioware for made him a healer. Fenris- warrior not always need.

[Threeparts]

Sialater wrote...

Yeah, I'm surprised Wynne got to leave the Tower.

I'm a little surprised at that too. After Ostagar and her subsequent recruitment by the Warden, she doesn't seem to have gone back to the tower, or felt that it was necessary that she do so. She goes off with Shale, and shows up in amaranthine six months later before heading to Cumberland. She shows no sign that she's doing something the chantry or templars would consider wrong, and the First Enchanter doesn't seem worried about her coming back.

I wonder if it's her age and apparent closeness with Iriving that allows her this; she's probably proven herself with decades of loyalty. She's been a mentor and probably a teacher, and that she was headed to the College of Magi to join in the discussions shows that she probably had a fair bit of standing in the Ferelden Circle. 

But still, you'd think the Circle would be loath to let go of an experienced mage and healer like Wynne, especially after suffering such devastating losses after the Uldred incident. Maybe she knows the truth of how things stand between Greagoir and Iriving and the idea of having that slip out was enough to make the First Enchanter let her do as she pleased. 

Modifié par Threeparts, 14 avril 2011 - 05:21 .

[tmp7704]

thebrute7 wrote...

I thought wynne was a special cas eof spirit healer.  I got the feeling most spirit healers gained aid from a fade spirit, but the spirit didn't actually merge with them.

Not 100% sure but seeing how Wynne is merged with spirit and has that specialization, and Anders is merged with spirit and also has a variant of this specialization... i'd guess the "aid of the spirit" actually involves that spirit merging with the host to lend the strength. Whether that's temporary or permanent, who knows.

[Sialater]

tmp7704 wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Almost any individual can be manipulated by anything.  Families are a strawman arguement for the Chantry, just like love was for the Jedi.

I don't think it's a strawman when it can be far more common and universal source of manipulation than nebulous 'anything'. This argument is like saying since we can die in any number of ways, there's no point in fastening your seatbelts even though car accidents are common source of death.

Actually, any defensive driving course will tell you, you fasten your seatbelts to keep the DRIVER safe in an accident, so that s/he can maintain/regain control of the car.

A child misses his family enough, he may turn to demons for comfort in one way or another. So, no, famlilial removal does NOT fix that.

[YamiSnuffles]

Dunizel wrote...

YamiSnuffles wrote...
 Obviously he doesn't need to convince a friend Hawke as much as a rival Hawke, but it would have been awesome to get a friendly version of that. And not just because he sounds adorable reading his manifesto.

That's it!
Instead of Orsino, a puppy eyed Anders reading his manifesto at the start of Act3 would have persuaded poor and noble people alike, they would even shed tears maybe. Who could resist that? 

That would have been great. Anders, all shy and stuttering, reading his manifesto to a crowd.  Suddenly the crowd awwws in unison and the people of Kirkwall start to realize that mage freedom isn't scary... it's adorable.

[Jean]

"While healing spells
do exist, spirit healers are well-known for taking healing and
restoration far beyond a standard mage’s capabilities. In effect, the
spirit healer summons a benevolent spirit through the veil and that
spirit uses its abilities on the mage’s behalf. Thus, spirit healers are
highly desired in the ranks of the Circle.
Becoming a spirit healer, however, is no simple matter. To gain
the services of such benevolent and righteous beings requires that the
mage earn their trust. Often this requires a series of trials to prove
that the mage’s goals are as noble as the spirit demands, though some
mages have claimed to command the compliance of such spirits through
sheer force of charisma. Some spirit mages even claim they did not
choose their calling; instead, a powerful spirit chose them and led them
into lives of service and ordeal.
It should also be noted that the calling of a spirit healer is a
dangerous one. The summoning of spirits through the Veil inevitably
draws demons to the mage, sometimes very powerful ones. More than one
tale exists of a spirit healer being fooled into believing a demon to be
a spirit and inadvertently bringing them across the Veil... or being
tricked into letting down their guard and possessed. As such, once a
mage becomes a spirit healer they must heighten their vigilance for the
remainder of their lives. It is a calling that not all will gladly
suffer."

So no, no posession unless stuff goes wrong.
Though summoning a spirit doesn't sound like such a good idea either way. I like Merrill's reasoning that there's no such thing as a good spirit.

Modifié par Batteries, 14 avril 2011 - 05:22 .

[phantomdragoness]

YamiSnuffles wrote...

Dunizel wrote...

YamiSnuffles wrote...
 Obviously he doesn't need to convince a friend Hawke as much as a rival Hawke, but it would have been awesome to get a friendly version of that. And not just because he sounds adorable reading his manifesto.

That's it!
Instead of Orsino, a puppy eyed Anders reading his manifesto at the start of Act3 would have persuaded poor and noble people alike, they would even shed tears maybe. Who could resist that? 

That would have been great. Anders, all shy and stuttering, reading his manifesto to a crowd.  Suddenly the crowd awwws in unison and the people of Kirkwall start to realize that mage freedom isn't scary... it's adorable.

That's because Hawke forced his/her companions to pass out a free kitten to everyone who would attend the reading. XD Hell, I'd go! XD

[Dreaming-in-Shadow]

thebrute7 wrote...

Dreaming-in-Shadow wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

thebrute7 wrote...

Sometimes?  I daresay it is all the time.  As far as the chantry is oncerned mages are not people.  Templars rape mages with no repercusions, they are taught that they are cursed from birth, their god hates them, everyone outside hates them, they are living portals for demons, abominations just waiting to happen, and if you don't do what we tell you we'll take away all of your emotions.

All the time.

And heaven help you if you're a spirit healer. Ever read that description? I'll grab a screenshot, but..they're actually FEARED because they have a closer connection to the fade or something.

I think spirit healers use their abilities by reaching into the fade and summoning a benevolent spirit for aid, or something.

It's funny that blood magic would be the "evil" school, when it's the one and only school of magic that actually has sod all to do with demons or the fade. All its power comes from the physical, mortal world. (As far as my knowledge goes, anyway. )

The issue with blood magic is that it can be used to control minds, and in almost all cases it is learned from making a deal with a demon, or from someone who made a deal with a demon.  Blood mages attract greater attention from demons making them a greater risk of possesion and I think this is the biggest one...  Templars can't stop you from using it.  They can drain a mages mana, they can keep a mage from forming a spell with mana (I.E. the door in the phylactery repository in DAO) but they can't stop a mage from casting from their blood.  Thus they fear blood magic and ban it. 

There's also the fact that, like Idunna (or whatever her name said), blood magic is magic of "blood and desire in equal measure".

Blood mages can control a person's mind and their spells are powered by life, and they'll always be tempted by the desire to take more and more. (Probably why they all go somewhat nuts)

The Chantry must really hate my Hawke, she's a Spirit Healer-Maleficar combo. XD

[Lady Jess]

tmp7704 wrote...

Lady Jess wrote...

And heaven help you if you're a spirit healer. Ever read that description? I'll grab a screenshot, but..they're actually FEARED because they have a closer connection to the fade or something.

They are feared because they have actual Fade spirit merged with them, which is small step up from having Fade demon occupy the same place. And how blurred that distinction can become should be most obvious here given it's Anders thread.

Muahaha yes my F!Hawke (who's with Fenris...the Anti-Anders) isn't much different than Anders. Though she's not...ya know, blowing up chantries or anything.

And to answer the above blood magic comment, I do believe blood mages have contact with a demon every time they cut themselves and call forth the ability?

[YamiSnuffles]

tmp7704 wrote...

thebrute7 wrote...

I thought wynne was a special cas eof spirit healer.  I got the feeling most spirit healers gained aid from a fade spirit, but the spirit didn't actually merge with them.

Not 100% sure but seeing how Wynne is merged with spirit and has that specialization, and Anders is merged with spirit and also has a variant of this specialization... i'd guess the "aid of the spirit" actually involves that spirit merging with the host to lend the strength. Whether that's temporary or permanent, who knows.

I'm almost completely sure not every spirit healer is actually merged with a spirit. Just pulling up the wiki quickly it says, "In effect, the spirit healer summons a benevolent spirit through the veil and that spirit uses its abilities on the mage’s behalf." Also, Finn and some others are listed as spirit healers.

Edit: ninja'd!

Modifié par YamiSnuffles, 14 avril 2011 - 05:25 .

[CatOfEvilGenius]

purplecookie wrote...

(snippity snip)

This is my impression also - Anders talks about mages from less well-off* areas being taken away from their families with such families being threatened with imprisonment if they ask about them. No prestige I imagine = no contact.

*Edit: I think he described them as "rat-spit villages*

My impression as well.  Ella, the girl Justice wants to kill in the Ser Alrik quest, ran away from the Circle so she could tell her parents what became of her.  Leandra gets to visit Bethany, but that's probably because Hawke's family is wealthy and Meredith doesn't want to ****** off Hawke TOO much.  She has uses for Hawke, after all.

------------------------------------------------------

How do I get Meredith to grab Anders?  She hasn't done it in the playthroughs where I had him in the battle.  What's the trigger condition?

[Sialater]

Batteries wrote...

"While healing spells
do exist, spirit healers are well-known for taking healing and
restoration far beyond a standard mage’s capabilities. In effect, the
spirit healer summons a benevolent spirit through the veil and that
spirit uses its abilities on the mage’s behalf. Thus, spirit healers are
highly desired in the ranks of the Circle.
Becoming a spirit healer, however, is no simple matter. To gain
the services of such benevolent and righteous beings requires that the
mage earn their trust. Often this requires a series of trials to prove
that the mage’s goals are as noble as the spirit demands, though some
mages have claimed to command the compliance of such spirits through
sheer force of charisma. Some spirit mages even claim they did not
choose their calling; instead, a powerful spirit chose them and led them
into lives of service and ordeal.
It should also be noted that the calling of a spirit healer is a
dangerous one. The summoning of spirits through the Veil inevitably
draws demons to the mage, sometimes very powerful ones. More than one
tale exists of a spirit healer being fooled into believing a demon to be
a spirit and inadvertently bringing them across the Veil... or being
tricked into letting down their guard and possessed. As such, once a
mage becomes a spirit healer they must heighten their vigilance for the
remainder of their lives. It is a calling that not all will gladly
suffer."

So no, no posession unless stuff goes wrong.
Though summoning a spirit doesn't sound like such a good idea either way. I like Merrill's reasoning that there's no such thing as a good spirit.

Heh, I actually DID describe it right in my fic.

[Lady Jess]

Batteries wrote...

"While healing spells
do exist, spirit healers are well-known for taking healing and
restoration far beyond a standard mage’s capabilities. In effect, the
spirit healer summons a benevolent spirit through the veil and that
spirit uses its abilities on the mage’s behalf. Thus, spirit healers are
highly desired in the ranks of the Circle.
Becoming a spirit healer, however, is no simple matter. To gain
the services of such benevolent and righteous beings requires that the
mage earn their trust. Often this requires a series of trials to prove
that the mage’s goals are as noble as the spirit demands, though some
mages have claimed to command the compliance of such spirits through
sheer force of charisma. Some spirit mages even claim they did not
choose their calling; instead, a powerful spirit chose them and led them
into lives of service and ordeal.
It should also be noted that the calling of a spirit healer is a
dangerous one. The summoning of spirits through the Veil inevitably
draws demons to the mage, sometimes very powerful ones. More than one
tale exists of a spirit healer being fooled into believing a demon to be
a spirit and inadvertently bringing them across the Veil... or being
tricked into letting down their guard and possessed. As such, once a
mage becomes a spirit healer they must heighten their vigilance for the
remainder of their lives. It is a calling that not all will gladly
suffer."

So no, no posession unless stuff goes wrong.
Though summoning a spirit doesn't sound like such a good idea either way. I like Merrill's reasoning that there's no such thing as a good spirit.

It still gets them watched more closely (tooltip in game says so) by the templars, and in Kirkwall noone wants THAT.

[Threeparts]

Batteries wrote...

I really wanted to be able to read his manifesto just to see what he's got running around in his head.

Then I wanted a writer to write it since you don't really get much in the game.

If it was me talking about religion issues in Thedas, I'd probably be spontaneously going justice-mode from my over dramatic self. Difference would be is that I'd argue the Maker never existed.
That would cause some problems in that world, I think.

I don't know - we've not grown up with the Chant and all the stories that accompany it; Anders could well shed some light (hurr) on how things work in Thedas and pass on information about the Maker that we don't yet know. I'm an atheist in reality, but Thedas isn't our world, so I'd be open to persuasion that the Maker or the Creators or the Old Gods or what-have-you at least have the potential to have existed at some point. I'd have to know more to really decide.

And if I could just get my hands on full copies of books mentioned in the codex entries, and maybe wander through the Chantry and Circle archives for a month or two...
What can I say? I'm a research ****, and being able to go through the library books in Witch Hunt made me happy in my pants.

Modifié par Threeparts, 14 avril 2011 - 05:32 .

[Herr Uhl]

tmp7704 wrote...

thebrute7 wrote...

I thought wynne was a special cas eof spirit healer.  I got the feeling most spirit healers gained aid from a fade spirit, but the spirit didn't actually merge with them.

Not 100% sure but seeing how Wynne is merged with spirit and has that specialization, and Anders is merged with spirit and also has a variant of this specialization... i'd guess the "aid of the spirit" actually involves that spirit merging with the host to lend the strength. Whether that's temporary or permanent, who knows.

I don't think actual merging is necessary.

The more common risk would be that demons could "hijack" the spirit's connection and get into the mind of the mage at a position of trust.

[Dunizel]

Threeparts wrote...
I wonder if it's her age and apparent closeness with Iriving that allows her this; she's probably proven herself with decades of loyalty. She's been a mentor and probably a teacher, and that she was headed to the College of Magi to join in the discussions shows that she probably had a fair bit of standing in the Ferelden Circle. 

It's just that Ferelden's Circle is more fun.

Not even Orsino in Kirkwall had her liberty, I don't think he could say "Bye Meredith, I'm going on a trip, seeya", without begin followed by an army of templars. Wynne just travels as she pleases wherever she wants apparently  :°D

[signcherie]

Sialater wrote...

tmp7704 wrote...

Sialater wrote...

Almost any individual can be manipulated by anything.  Families are a strawman arguement for the Chantry, just like love was for the Jedi.

I don't think it's a strawman when it can be far more common and universal source of manipulation than nebulous 'anything'. This argument is like saying since we can die in any number of ways, there's no point in fastening your seatbelts even though car accidents are common source of death.

Actually, any defensive driving course will tell you, you fasten your seatbelts to keep the DRIVER safe in an accident, so that s/he can maintain/regain control of the car.

A child misses his family enough, he may turn to demons for comfort in one way or another. So, no, famlilial removal does NOT fix that.

You cannot stop a child from loving. If you take away their family, they will love something else. So there will always be something for the demons to manipulate them with.

I would think they would become stronger with the support of their families behind them, personally.

Also, I have a hard time believing that the majority of families are embarrassed/scared enough to want to cut off all contact with their kids like that. I'm sure it happens, but as a mother, I just can't see it being the majority of cases. I find it more likely that fear/embarrassment would cause them to hide their mage kid from the Templars.

[Dunizel]

phantomdragoness wrote...

YamiSnuffles wrote...

Dunizel wrote...

YamiSnuffles wrote...
 Obviously he doesn't need to convince a friend Hawke as much as a rival Hawke, but it would have been awesome to get a friendly version of that. And not just because he sounds adorable reading his manifesto.

That's it!
Instead of Orsino, a puppy eyed Anders reading his manifesto at the start of Act3 would have persuaded poor and noble people alike, they would even shed tears maybe. Who could resist that? 

That would have been great. Anders, all shy and stuttering, reading his manifesto to a crowd.  Suddenly the crowd awwws in unison and the people of Kirkwall start to realize that mage freedom isn't scary... it's adorable.

That's because Hawke forced his/her companions to pass out a free kitten to everyone who would attend the reading. XD Hell, I'd go! XD

I just imagined all the companions with a basket of kittens. I started laughing thinking about Fenris handing kittens.

[signcherie]

Dunizel wrote...

Threeparts wrote...
I wonder if it's her age and apparent closeness with Iriving that allows her this; she's probably proven herself with decades of loyalty. She's been a mentor and probably a teacher, and that she was headed to the College of Magi to join in the discussions shows that she probably had a fair bit of standing in the Ferelden Circle. 

It's just that Ferelden's Circle is more fun.

Not even Orsino in Kirkwall had her liberty, I don't think he could say "Bye Meredith, I'm going on a trip, seeya", without begin followed by an army of templars. Wynne just travels as she pleases wherever she wants apparently  :°D

I think it's something like Hawke's freedom as Champion. Wynne helped the Hero of Fereldan defeat the Blight, she has too much public good will to go locking her up now.