74 réponses à ce sujet

[Melca36]

Myounage wrote...

No point, game sold worse than the original, and nobody likes it enough to purchase the DLC.Best to focus money elsewhere, like ME 3.

They're still making it whether you agree or not. You do realize its a different group developing ME 3 don't you?

Modifié par Melca36, 18 mai 2011 - 09:20 .

[IanPolaris]

nightlordv wrote...

bioware already said they have "story based" DLC planned and working on it on these forums somewhere. Unless the DLC is a continuation from the ending of the main game I won't be interested in purchasing it.

Yes, I've heard that too, and Bioware has apparently delayed it in response to the negative reception that DA2 has received, supposedly in order to refine and rework elements in response to that criticism.  That might even be true.  It might also be that EA and BW are seriously rethinking supporting the franchise at all and unfortunately this is what I believe.

If I had to guess (with the emphasis that it's ONLY a guess), I'd say that eventually the Story based DLC will be released (very late) in one last attempt to regain some of the DA magic...and anything less than a stellar reception probably means that EA pulls the plug on the franchise.

-Polaris

[Myounage]

Melca36 wrote...

Myounage wrote...

No point, game sold worse than the original, and nobody likes it enough to purchase the DLC.Best to focus money elsewhere, like ME 3.

They're still making it whether you agree or not. You do realize its a different group developing ME 3 don't you?

yes, but managers make budget decisions about how much money each team gets out of the master budget. If you were a manager where would you spend the company's money? On DLC for a game almost everyone hated, or on Mass Effect 2 DLC, SWTOR, and Mass Effect 3? Bioware may well *never* release DLC for this game due to its poor reception and poor sales, and that would be the proper business decision. With how this game has fared post-release, I would expect a new DLC for Dragon Age: Origins / Awakening to sell better. The best thing for Bioware to do here is completely pull support from DA 2 for anything that isn't a patch and work on making DA 3 not a complete failure.

Modifié par Myounage, 19 mai 2011 - 03:52 .

[Skilled Seeker]

IanPolaris wrote...

nightlordv wrote...

bioware already said they have "story based" DLC planned and working on it on these forums somewhere. Unless the DLC is a continuation from the ending of the main game I won't be interested in purchasing it.

Yes, I've heard that too, and Bioware has apparently delayed it in response to the negative reception that DA2 has received, supposedly in order to refine and rework elements in response to that criticism.  That might even be true.  It might also be that EA and BW are seriously rethinking supporting the franchise at all and unfortunately this is what I believe.

If I had to guess (with the emphasis that it's ONLY a guess), I'd say that eventually the Story based DLC will be released (very late) in one last attempt to regain some of the DA magic...and anything less than a stellar reception probably means that EA pulls the plug on the franchise.

-Polaris

Except EA have said they will support DA and want it to have yearly instalments. But that of course means nothing to you, wouldn't want the facts getting in the way of the doom and gloom forcast!

Modifié par Skilled Seeker, 19 mai 2011 - 06:57 .

[IanPolaris]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Except EA have said they will support DA and want it to have yearly instalments. But that of course means nothing to you, wouldn't want the facts getting in the way of the doom and gloom forcast!

I am an active shareholder and I know how these things work.  That promise is worth the paper it's printed on...perhaps less.  Companies can (and honestly should) change their minds on a dime if the bottom line isn't there, and the shareholders expect this.  Remember that much of what you read was based on dated material and in part for marketing purposes in order to toute their latest line.

Trust me on this, if DA doesn't meet certain expectations, EA will kill it without a second thought regardless of what was said publically.

-Polaris

[Skilled Seeker]

Sinking ship? If TOR and ME3 fail then I suppose so. That hasn't happened so don't jump the gun after just 1 mixed release, all of Bioware's other titles have been stellar and highly praised. I have a feeling that Bioware will strike back with a vengeance and all future content will be awesome.

Modifié par Skilled Seeker, 19 mai 2011 - 07:35 .

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

We will see what happens after TOR and ME 3.

I hope they are very successful.

But EA have a very long history of buying up talented developers, rushing them to create inferior games, sales drop, then they shut down the studio because of low revenue.

Origins, Westwood, Mythic, Bullfrog, Maxis.... oh well. At least DICE and Bioware are still going strong.

[AlanC9]

Ignore Talon. He's been acting all butthurt lately

DLC's got such a good ROI I'd be shocked if we didn't see a bunch, actually. You've got no real marketing costs, no retailer split, no distribution costs except bandwidth, and a price/gameplay hour ratio that's stratospheric.

[IanPolaris]

AlanC9 wrote...

Ignore Talon. He's been acting all butthurt lately

DLC's got such a good ROI I'd be shocked if we didn't see a bunch, actually. You've got no real marketing costs, no retailer split, no distribution costs except bandwidth, and a price/gameplay hour ratio that's stratospheric.

Sure except based on the sales data, you are starting with less than half (I'd guess about 40%) of the possible customer base for the DLCs that you would have for DAO/DAA. Worse, many of these customers seem to be alienated (if the metacritic scores are any indication) which means it seems unlikely they'd invest further in a game they don't seem to like. In any event, there will always be a segment of the original market that won't buy them.

You are also forgetting production opportunity costs. For every man-hour that your programmers (who aren't cheap), artists, and designers are working on your DLC, they are not working on your next big release which in the event of a market failure (and honestly DA2 is looking more and more like a market failure) becomes all the more important.

I am not saying there won't be any, but I expect only one or two "story" DLCs at best, and they will be very late and receive a tepid reputation at best. If that happens, I strongly suspect that EA pulls the plug.

-Polaris

[Skilled Seeker]

I wish I had your oracle powers Ian. Teach me oh mighty seer!

[IanPolaris]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

I wish I had your oracle powers Ian. Teach me oh mighty seer!

I am humbled by your confidence but I assure you that no divine insight is required.  Just a basic understanding of business and the willingness to follow the quarterly shareholder reports.

Most companies are pretty much the same.  If a product or line doesn't meet expectations, it's shelved for one that does.

-Polaris

[devSin]

IanPolaris wrote...

You are also forgetting production opportunity costs. For every man-hour that your programmers (who aren't cheap), artists, and designers are working on your DLC, they are not working on your next big release which in the event of a market failure (and honestly DA2 is looking more and more like a market failure) becomes all the more important.

According to the past design credits, BioWare has more designers than their main projects can reasonably accommodate (for every Mike or David, there's a Rob or Ferret), as well as a producer (Fernando) whose sole duty is apparently performing necromantic rites on the remnants of the Live Team.

Your programmers (who aren't cheap) spent great time setting up Origins and its sequel so that it requires no code changes to publish DLC content. And the number of truly unique art in post-release DLC is typically small (the item packs, they've already stated, generate a sizable return, enough for them to be comfortable spending time on the new models).

IanPolaris wrote...

I am not saying there won't be any, but I expect only one or two "story" DLCs at best, and they will be very late and receive a tepid reputation at best. If that happens, I strongly suspect that EA pulls the plug.

Oh, please. I can tell you now that the DLC is going to be universally derided. BioWare knows it. EA knows it. Nobody is waiting with bated breath to see how well it's received before deciding where to take the IP in the future.

You have only to look at their entire catalog of DLC, almost none of which is, shall we say, held in very high esteem, to know exactly what they have in store for us next. And you'd be a fool to base any decisions about anything other than whether to ever do DLC again on it.

[IanPolaris]

devSin,

If that analysis is accurate (and I'm not saying it's not by a long chalk), then if my estimates about how badly DA2 failed to meet expectations are right, DA as a franchise should (and IMO very will could) be dropped without any DLC. Honestly by that anlysis, BW would be better off financially making more DLC for DAO and DAA.

DLCs are eyecandy for fans that want to play more of your game, but that really only works with popular and well received games and honestly DA2 is neither.

-Polaris

[Melca36]

Myounage wrote...

Melca36 wrote...

Myounage wrote...

No point, game sold worse than the original, and nobody likes it enough to purchase the DLC.Best to focus money elsewhere, like ME 3.

They're still making it whether you agree or not. You do realize its a different group developing ME 3 don't you?

yes, but managers make budget decisions about how much money each team gets out of the master budget. If you were a manager where would you spend the company's money? On DLC for a game almost everyone hated, or on Mass Effect 2 DLC, SWTOR, and Mass Effect 3? Bioware may well *never* release DLC for this game due to its poor reception and poor sales, and that would be the proper business decision. With how this game has fared post-release, I would expect a new DLC for Dragon Age: Origins / Awakening to sell better. The best thing for Bioware to do here is completely pull support from DA 2 for anything that isn't a patch and work on making DA 3 not a complete failure.

\\


Mafia 2 was had horrible critical reviews and almost worst fan reaction than DA: 2. It also sold worse than DA:2 and it still had DLC. Some of the DLC was grossly overpriced too.

The developers have said they are releasing DLC and I believe them.  

[IanPolaris]

Melca36 wrote...

Mafia 2 was had horrible critical reviews and almost worst fan reaction than DA: 2. It also sold worse than DA:2 and it still had DLC. Some of the DLC was grossly overpriced too.

The developers have said they are releasing DLC and I believe them.  

Yes, but what you don't know is the rest of the picture.  Mafia 2 may have had far lower expectations than DA2 (and I think it likely did).  If so, then what matters is not the gross sales and unadjusted review scores, but rather how closely sales matched expectations and how the reviews matched what the company was willing to tolerate.

It's quite possible that in the corporate bottom line, Mafia 2 did better in terms of relative expectations than DA2.

-Polaris

[abaris]

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Except EA have said they will support DA and want it to have yearly instalments. But that of course means nothing to you, wouldn't want the facts getting in the way of the doom and gloom forcast!

On a side note, I consider yearly instalments a dangerous threat. Just think about it, it means very little development time and in all probability sloppy execution. You can do that with a sports game, where all you have to do is swap out some players, but never with a story based RPG or adventure.

But that aside. Polaris is absolutely right. If the game isn't rising up to shareholder's expectations, they will drop the franchise in a blink. The suits on top would have a lot to answer for, if they were to sink money. Public statements to the player community aren't worth diddly, cause they aren't the ones paying the bills and dishing out the bonusses.

[xkg]

Melca36 wrote...

Mafia 2 was had horrible critical reviews and almost worst fan reaction than DA: 2. It also sold worse than DA:2 and it still had DLC. Some of the DLC was grossly overpriced too.

The developers have said they are releasing DLC and I believe them.  

Ok. lets see.
Metacritics:
Critics scores are slightly better for DA2 : 79   (Mafia 2 : 74)
Users scores  well... DA2 : 4.4  (Mafia 2 : 7.5)

About sales ?
According to VGChartz in first 9 weeks DA2 sold 1,325,147    Mafia 2  sold 1,318,576    much difference huh ?

[Drachasor]

abaris wrote...

Skilled Seeker wrote...

Except EA have said they will support DA and want it to have yearly instalments. But that of course means nothing to you, wouldn't want the facts getting in the way of the doom and gloom forcast!

On a side note, I consider yearly instalments a dangerous threat. Just think about it, it means very little development time and in all probability sloppy execution. You can do that with a sports game, where all you have to do is swap out some players, but never with a story based RPG or adventure.

But that aside. Polaris is absolutely right. If the game isn't rising up to shareholder's expectations, they will drop the franchise in a blink. The suits on top would have a lot to answer for, if they were to sink money. Public statements to the player community aren't worth diddly, cause they aren't the ones paying the bills and dishing out the bonusses.

I too agree with Polaris, though I'd add two points.

First, they might decide that the lower sales is still profitable enough given the cost of production and make another game just as shoddily.  I doubt there'd be more than one though.  I am not entirely sure how EA has operated here in the past going off memory.

Second, they might actually realize why the product failed and retool so the next one doesn't.  This, however, is not terribly likely given how EA has acted in the past, unless it is somehow learning from its mistakes.

[abaris]

Drachasor wrote...

Second, they might actually realize why the product failed and retool so the next one doesn't.  This, however, is not terribly likely given how EA has acted in the past, unless it is somehow learning from its mistakes.

And aiming for a one year cycle at the same time? Not likely.

But I'm also pretty sure, the game made them at least some dosh. But that in itself isn't enough nowadays. DAII made its entrance cashing in on the reputation of its predecessor. That reputation is gone now and the next title will wear the emperors new cloths. It has to earn its own reputation the hard way and from scratch.

[abaris]

lemarcheur wrote...

On top of having to rebuild its own reputation, now there is a new kid on the block (TW2) with (according to reports) amazing graphics, mature storyline and strong role playing.

Also a matter of taste. A fixed main character just doesn't cut it for me.


And by fixed I don't mean their role in the game, but appearance, gender, profession.

Modifié par abaris, 19 mai 2011 - 05:45 .

[Skilled Seeker]

You should all be banking on TOR to succeed big time. It will bring in a lot of dough for Bioware, and Bioware can then invest some of that into their single player games. They'd also not need to release their titles so fast when they have a steady money maker from monthly subs so they'd be able to take more time to work on their titles. Sort of like Blizzard really.

Modifié par Skilled Seeker, 19 mai 2011 - 09:28 .

[devSin]

IanPolaris wrote...

If that analysis is accurate (and I'm not saying it's not by a long chalk), then if my estimates about how badly DA2 failed to meet expectations are right, DA as a franchise should (and IMO very will could) be dropped without any DLC. Honestly by that anlysis, BW would be better off financially making more DLC for DAO and DAA.

Like AlanC9 posted, the returns on DLC are almost certainly insanely high (1/10th the price of a game for 1/1000th, or less, the effort? sign me up!).

Also keep in mind that BioWare and EA are not simply picking their butts hoping to make some money. They know exactly how much of each game they've sold (in all its regions and in all its production runs, along with the full digital/physical breakdown for PC), how much DLC they've sold to each user, who bought multiple DLCs (and how many they bought), who bought DLCs and also bought GotY/Ultimate editions, what percentages of DLC sold was sold to which of the three primary platforms (I don't think Mac sales are separately tracked, but I don't think it would make any difference even if they were), and so on.

This, across all their games from all their studios. They're not stupid. If they're doing DLC, it's because the gold really is there at the end of the tunnel, even if it's not as much as they'd originally projected. Now, you can argue that the return won't be worthwhile enough for them to commit to any DLC beyond what has already been in progress (and even a game that they said was one of their top-selling games of all time wasn't worthy enough for them to keep their promise of a full two years of support--more like four months of paying attention to the game and one year of trying to make more money off it by selling one gram of coke cut with a pound of baking soda), but it doesn't make sense at all that the decision influences anything else.

DLC seems to so far be "how much money can you also make" from the games you put out. It's not an indicator of what or when you continue working on the IP in the future (if anything, I'd say worthless performance of the "meatier" DLC simply makes it more likely that future DLC for *all* their games will take the form of item or appearance packs and such). The beginnings of the decision about where to take DA in the future are likely already being made known, and while they can and may change in the future (either internally or from EA), it probably won't be because nobody wants their DLC quests and companions.