41 réponses à ce sujet

[jweath]

My edit did seem to work. Sonvar is right. Even if you by the maker's potion to respec Aveline can not access 2H weapons trees. I tried it.

Also Aveline may have an advantage or disadvantage with armor. You can only upgrade armor.
Advantage
1. Can go with a str/cunning build if you want.
2. Less money spent on tank armor upgrades
Disadvantage
Not sure if her upgraded armor is better, worse, or equal to what Hawke could wear for tank armor.

[darkelf007]

Um...not to try and ruin the discussion about tanks and stuff. I know thats standard play but...I've been doing a no tank build. This is on normal and everything but I've been playing a rogue as my Hawke (assassin, mostly high damage skills but some subtlety to get out of enemies aggro), then I also had Fenris that 2h warrior guy, the dwarf archer guy (can't remember his name atm), and Anders (to be honest, mostly so I can joke about having a healer with no tank haha).

It's worked so far. Fenris basically picks up the weak infantry guys, the archer does his rain of arrows thing on most of them and since Fenris can hit more than one guy at a time they die rather quick...meanwhile, I just sneak around and cut through any enemy with a decent amount of health. Bosses have been...a bit more interesting...but again I got my assassin rogue so my huge dps has been doing the trick so far.

Not sure what I'm trying to get across here, but I just saw you guys with the 1 tank build or 2 tank build....no tank build, right here...I'm just saying.

[RK5]

darkelf007 wrote...

Um...not to try and ruin the discussion about tanks and stuff. I know thats standard play but...I've been doing a no tank build. This is on normal and everything but I've been playing a rogue as my Hawke (assassin, mostly high damage skills but some subtlety to get out of enemies aggro), then I also had Fenris that 2h warrior guy, the dwarf archer guy (can't remember his name atm), and Anders (to be honest, mostly so I can joke about having a healer with no tank haha).

It's worked so far. Fenris basically picks up the weak infantry guys, the archer does his rain of arrows thing on most of them and since Fenris can hit more than one guy at a time they die rather quick...meanwhile, I just sneak around and cut through any enemy with a decent amount of health. Bosses have been...a bit more interesting...but again I got my assassin rogue so my huge dps has been doing the trick so far.

Not sure what I'm trying to get across here, but I just saw you guys with the 1 tank build or 2 tank build....no tank build, right here...I'm just saying.

This.  Fenris does more than a decent job of soaking up the minions and drawing the attention even WITHOUT any aggro abilities, i just elt him loose and make sure he has a decent amount of Constitution.  Honestly Aveline is your only trandtional S&B warrior in the party, so the spot is wide open for you if you want to tank it with your PC, aveline doesnt have access to any specializations like your PC does. 

Yes they changed a lot of stuff, and yes they took a lot of steps backward while trying to go forward, its frustrating, but its not nearly as bad as its being made out to be here.

[CgSquall]

I don't mean to sound mean...but turn it up to Hard or Nightmare and these things become a lot more obvious.

This conversation was never really intended for those players who intend to play on Normal. On normal difficulty you can essentially do whatever you want and be able to beat the game, so long as you use your abilities. Notice I didn't even say use your abilities well. It was the same way in Origins, for laughs I once created a party of 4 Dual-Wield players using a respec mod. Alistair, Leliana, Zevran and my PC, all Dual-Wielding on normal blew through the entire game.

This conversation is mostly intended as a Nightmare discussion, because that's when these things - which I'll be honest, seem like hair-splitting on the lower difficulties and serve no point - actually matter.

Really, to end this discussion, it's just like Dragon Age: Origins where Indomitable was the reason you had a Two-Hand Warrior tank, because Immunity to Stun and Knockdown on Nightmare is just unbeatable. Aveline has access to Indomitable, the PC does not. Almost nothing else matters.

End of discussion.

Edit: fixed spelling on the talent listed.

Modifié par CgSquall, 10 mars 2011 - 07:30 .

[cuwepal]

 i don't use aveline so don't really recall what skills she has that makes her immune to stuns but Resilience is open to all warriors 100% resistance to knockback. aveline's dmg sucks so i ended up benching her and rolling my PC as the tank because you can do insane amount of dmg if you spec right a its a lot easyer having a S&S tank on nightmare you don't have to worry about companions running into you sword can make use of Isa and just let her reck most incounters as you keep everything locked down with staggers and knockdowns 

[jweath]

The more I look at the trees the less convinced I am that Aveline is by defualt the best tank. Her tree is good no doubt but to serious investing in the sns tree and the taunt/bravery branch of Warmonger not much is left to defense. The defense tree has very different but interesting options that Hawke or Aveline could use. The decisions on which abilities seems more constrained than DAO. Warriors are more like rogues in DAO. You can't just simply stack a tree and then go for a few in another as filler like DAO. There are more abilities points needed with upgrades now and it is hard to get necessary tanking abilities, fill sns and fill a speciality. In DAO you could fill 2 specialites and have every tanking ability needed. The upgrade system has changed this now.

[setrus86]

Wissenschaft wrote...

An S&S warrior can still be great using upgrades to Stagger enemies and various abilities to knockdown enemies. They don't just tank, they disrupt the enemy. Add in Bravery to help them fight mass hordes and let them switch to shield defense when its time do tank a boss.

Very true. Heh, try adding "cleave " from the vanguard tree and use the upgraded stagger on a mob or assault on a tougher foe and there'll be an explosion of gore...

Bu tas you say, you can fight hordes with them and tank bosses with them...sword and shield gives a flexibility one can't help but love.

[Rehwyn]

A Hawke SnB warrior doesn't have quite the defensive options that Aveline does, but to be quite honest, going full defense on her is overkill (even on Nightmare). The best things in the tree are her immunity to knockdown/stun and Bodyguard (which I love on my DW rogue).

However, consider these items:
Etched Ring of the Twins
Ring of No Wishes
Dull Brass Amulet

Oh hey, I'm now immune to crits, stuns, knockback, and flanking. Those are all top-tier rings/amulet in terms of their other stats as well and are not hard to afford. The only immunity Aveline now has over you is Knockdown immunity (which I haven't found an item for, sadly). You can, however, get partial knockback immunity quite early with a build starting like this:

http://biowarefans.c...ilder/#wHkbte1Y

With that, you have your key tanking talents, a way to sustain stamina on boss-fights (Bolster), and a 10s cooldown Stonewall that gives +100% damage resistance and immunity to knockback/knockdown for 5s. Almost all the Knockdown abilities have a visible animation, so if you are good you can time you Stonewall to prevent it (or just move and dodge it).

SnB warriors can actually do fairly impressive damage and can set up nice cross-class combos too. You're also less prone to killing your own allies on Nightmare than a two-hander.

EDIT: Here's an example of what a high-level "defensive" SnB spec could be like (after a respec to get rid of Pummel and abilities taken in no particular leveling order). Grabbing Perception for Flank immunity is an option if you don't have the Dull Brass Amulet.

http://biowarefans.c...VShPu0DFs1mwi0d

Aveline doesn't have Templar, by the way, so is completely unable to get a high-damage AoE stun, silence, or +50% magic resistance...

Modifié par Rehwyn, 19 mars 2011 - 03:03 .

[TalliNV]

The only bummer is that 2 of those items are available in act 3...I'm loving my SnS DPSer but I'm only playing on Hard.

[Auru]

there is no way Aveline can match Hawke by .. well act II and onwards, you have more stats.. better equipment and better access to skills

you don't need a ye olde tank who stands there absorbing damage, build your Hawke offensively.. you can cause complete chaos in the midst of a pack of enemies through disruptive skills and you have assault which is the single hardest hitting warrior ability, it's a quick to cooldown and in combination with cleave it wrecks anything standing in front of you

I played through hard as a sword/shield warrior on my first playthrough and it felt easy.. I dunno why so many seem to be having issues with it

[DialupToaster]

xDSx wrote...

CgSquall wrote...

Is it really worth building a sword/board warrior (since they got rid of dual-wield option entirely for warriors) and since you have Aveline as a tank that a PC can't really beat (just by looking at her skills at least)?

THIS is what pisses me off.
How they push NPC tank in my face. First Alistair, now her.
And If I want to be tank myself(Removing said character from the group), I'm kind of loosing essential plot character.
While respeccing them to be DPS is not an option(Several talents are in "tank spec" already)...
Come on!

Also, I'm no sexist, but I just feel uneasy forcing a woman to take beating while I backstab enemies with my two hander.

P.S. I think the "holy trinity"(Tank + Healer + Dps) should be changed already. Way too restrictive, overplayed and bland. But, I'm no game designer...

I just keep a party of dps and forget about tanks and healers, works fine because my char and buddies can cloak while merril can teleport soooooo woot

[DialupToaster]

Wissenschaft wrote...

Actually Aveline is so damn good at tanking you might always want to take her instead of being a tank yourself.

The problem is that my char does 200 dps and she does 50 so by the end of the game varric and I had to run around with a high dragon on our tails till we were not on cooldown and the dragon gave up.

[DialupToaster]

CgSquall wrote...

Grymloc sort of put what was in my head better than I did...

I love sword/board...but Aveline just...sort of ruins it?

The thing is they need to put in a tank in case you dont wanna tank you if you have such a problem with her dont take her and get different party members.

[DialupToaster]

CgSquall wrote...

I don't mean to sound mean...but turn it up to Hard or Nightmare and these things become a lot more obvious.

This conversation was never really intended for those players who intend to play on Normal. On normal difficulty you can essentially do whatever you want and be able to beat the game, so long as you use your abilities. Notice I didn't even say use your abilities well. It was the same way in Origins, for laughs I once created a party of 4 Dual-Wield players using a respec mod. Alistair, Leliana, Zevran and my PC, all Dual-Wielding on normal blew through the entire game.

This conversation is mostly intended as a Nightmare discussion, because that's when these things - which I'll be honest, seem like hair-splitting on the lower difficulties and serve no point - actually matter.

Really, to end this discussion, it's just like Dragon Age: Origins where Indomitable was the reason you had a Two-Hand Warrior tank, because Immunity to Stun and Knockdown on Nightmare is just unbeatable. Aveline has access to Indomitable, the PC does not. Almost nothing else matters.

End of discussion.

Edit: fixed spelling on the talent listed.

Ooooooooooooooooooohhhhh So we are going to involve parties using tactics. Great here it is Merril can weaken enemies as my assassin can turning a boss into a wimp. then fenris holds back the mobs with his powerful multi enemy hits. Varric will be used for crowd control. Anyway my point is a high hp fenris back by two rogues that stealth is better then tanks.
At least that is how it works for me.

[Rehwyn]

randomchasegurney wrote...
The
problem is that my char does 200 dps and she does 50 so by the end of
the game varric and I had to run around with a high dragon on our tails
till we were not on cooldown and the dragon gave up.

Um, that's why you use abilities like Armistace, Goad, Inconspicuous, and Taunt. Total threat wipe or transfer = no problem holding aggro on a boss, aside from scripted boss attacks.

randomchasegurney wrote...
Ooooooooooooooooooohhhhh So we are going to involve parties using tactics. Great here it is Merril can weaken enemies as my assassin can turning a boss into a wimp. then fenris holds back the mobs with his powerful multi enemy hits. Varric will be used for crowd control. Anyway my point is a high hp fenris back by two rogues that stealth is better then tanks.
At least that is how it works for me.

I'm going to assume you're not playing on Nightmare, because on Nightmare, Fenris will one-shot your party members with his AoE if they get anywhere near him. And if you're not playing on Nightmare, of course getting by without healing is easier.

Whenever I used Fenris on Nightmare, I had to manually control him and let my rogue Hawke run with tactics to avoid deaths.

Modifié par Rehwyn, 19 mars 2011 - 04:14 .

[Salladdbladd]

I by myself was a huge fan of the 2h builds, but then i tried out SnS dmg and it kicks as, surprisingly far more than 2h check it out several posts on this forum about the topic.

[CitizenSnips]

Seems like any warrior build is viable as long as you pick up the vanguard tree.