219 réponses à ce sujet

[KnightofPhoenix]

The one place where I wanted a finisher cutscene, ripping the bastard apart with crushing prison, and it doesn't show up. Alas.

That said, the scene got to me. I teared up and throughout the quest I was cursing out loud. Well done Bioware. That was awesomely tragic.

[Sonris89]

scyphozoa wrote...

Did anyone else burst out laughing at this scene? I thought it was so poorly done and in general, so absolutely cheesy that I couldn't take it serious at all. No sadness or drama, just hilariously corny zombie-bride-mom. Seriously, was this supposed to make me angry at mages? Because it was too ridiculous to ever consider real. This was one of the most belief-suspending moments of the game and one of the lowest water marks I have seen in any Bioware game.

Can't please everyone I guess haha.

[KnightofPhoenix]

Merced652 wrote...
I'm 100% positive this was the writers trying to get more people to side with the templars than otherwise would. ****ing stupid.

The game is doing a fine job showing that there are bastards in all factions.

It has insane / fanatical mages. Fanatical Templars / Chantry priests. And fanatical Qunari (who want to kill you just because their mage spoke to you).

Magic is dangerous, that had always been part of the lore. But Quentin was not insane because of magic. Any non-mage could have become just as insane, just less effective at it.

So I don't see this necessarily has to make Hawke be a templar extremist sympathizer. It is certainly a valid reaction. People are not always reasonable when tragedy hits and they can fall victim to excess. But it doesn't have to happen and I don't see the writers deliberately trying to make mages look bad and if they did, they made mostly everyone else look bad so far anyways. 

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 12 mars 2011 - 08:25 .

[Sjofn]

JoshMeinzer wrote...

It was a great storytelling point to the game, especially after introducing the seeds for it in the previous act. Leandra seems happier, speaking of her suitor. Meanwhile, Hawke tracks a murderer who eludes her.

When Bodahn mentioned the white lilies, my heart actually sank. And then getting there, seeing the form in the chair, I kind of got the "Alright, I'm here, everything is fine" feeling... until it panned to her throat. It was something akin to the end of "Se7en" Just completely helpless and filled with anger.

It even impacted my RP too. I'd been using the humourous/sarcastic choices up until then, but for the next while it was mostly the aggressive/angry answers.

I did the same exact thing. I had been doing all the sarcastic choices (with some of the nice ones), but I turned into Angry Hawke for a while, and always took the HAWKE SMASH options if Bethany was so much as mentioned (Meredith sort of idly pointed out my sister was in the Circle while trying to convince me to do something for her, and I was all I WILL CUT YOU in response. And eventually I did cut her. ).

RosaAquafire wrote...
Personally? I liked having no choice. Hawke is supposed to feel helpless, there. They gave us a moment where our character goes through something intense. I think it suited the themes of the game. Yeah, DA2 is an RPG, but it's also a story, and I think Leandra's death was an staggeringly incredible part of the story.

When linear gives you emotions that intense, that sort of frustration, helpless pain, desperation? That's art. I'm not trading art for an easy way out.

Preach it. I think of it like the Connor thing. The "go to the Circle and get them to help" is the obvious solution once you know it works without any big trade off. If you could save Leandra, it would be the same thing. The feeling of helplessness, and the feeling of "no matter how badass I am, I can't save everyone, not even my own mother" ... I'm fine with having that "forced" on me.

Modifié par Sjofn, 12 mars 2011 - 08:46 .

[Nordic Warlord]

I'm not trading art for an easy way out.

Well, I guess most people don't want an easy way out. Let us not oversimplify all the possible options for this quest to "mother lives/mother dies" ones. The whole idea of making Hawke feel helpless and see the "dark side" of the magic is perfectly realizable via morally difficult decisions.

[Alex475]

I'm avoiding this side quests that lead to Leandra's death, is it possible that it would work avoid her death?

[BlueeulB]

So, the possibility of it being a bug is the reason she dies even if you use the ritual to get there faster has been ruled out? It's probably just wishful thinking on my part though. :c

Modifié par BlueeulB, 12 mars 2011 - 09:00 .

[BaronIveagh]

Alex475 wrote...

I'm avoiding this side quests that lead to Leandra's death, is it possible that it would work avoid her death?

Nice idea, but I'm given to understand that it's a 'no'.  Bioware will kill Hawkes mom no matter what.  And, worse, it'sabsurdly forced (in the 'rocks fall, everyone dies' sense).  Despite the fact that the killer sets Hawk up for the Templar's murder, and you can have the very captain of the city watch with you at the time, to see that something is going on, you just drop the case as soon as you find out it wasn't dupuy.  'Oh well, there's a murderer loose in the city that has access to my personal stationary, no need for concern...'  


It isn't even well written.  I wasn't sad that she died, i was sad that I had blown $60 on 'God of Dragon Age' where the only point ot the game is to slaughter as many enemies as possible with button mashing combos, broken up by walking around a city to get new quests to slaughter as many enemies as possible with button mashing combos. 

Seriously, as little impact as your decisions have, they could have been just replaced with cinamatic cut scenes. 

[MKDAWUSS]

This was probably the one time where I got a bit emotional, and it had to do more with me than the game.

The whole quest did feel a bit railroaded though. And a bit... lame.

[Kosh_Naranek]

yoshibb wrote...


Yeah, I didn't get that either. Why give us the choice if nothing different happens? And by going to DuPuis, you should get there much earlier so why is it the same exact scene as if you waited until nightfall. I don't mind death as long as there's a choice or a mistake on your part to lead to that death. Just pulling out the death card because it's dramatic is lame. 

It's called a hope spot.  It's a tried and true storytelling technique in which the characters are presented with a possible solution to the horrible fate coming at them, thus giving the viewer hope (hence the name).

The characters take whatever the solution was, and then...

...They fail anyway.  Because there was nothing they could have done.  They started too late, or their reinforcements weren't enough (see: the start of Firefly) or their opponent was just too smart (Watchmen).  It's a legitimate tactic to screw with the viewer and to tell a story.

Sometimes bad things happen, no matter how powerful or rich you are.  I mean, in my playthough, the captain of the City Guard was my best friend and we still weren't able to track this guy down in time.  Occasionally, bad things happen to good people.

The people going "Cheap emotional trickery! *fistshake*" need to grow up and realize that the not everything can be fixed or avoided, and the best stories are the ones that take that into account.

[BaronIveagh]

Kosh_Naranek wrote...
The people going "Cheap emotional trickery! *fistshake*" need to grow up and realize that the not everything can be fixed or avoided, and the best stories are the ones that take that into account.

The problem is in this case where it's nonsensical and feels forced.  A well written hope spot is the things you suggest. (See Final Fantasy 7)

All those thigns that you mention earlier have logic to them.  There is a reason they take place.  This, however, takes place in defiance of logic.   Sure, the scene is very emotional, but if you stop and think about it, should never have happened.  Basically the game forces you to stop persuing the criminal not for any particular reason, but because the quest simply stops abruptly at a point where what any human being would have done would be examine the scene of the murder, the note that the Templar recived, and the warehouse much more closely, intead of wandering off like Sandel.

[BaronIveagh]

Sorry, double post.

Modifié par BaronIveagh, 12 mars 2011 - 09:33 .

[Sonris89]

BlueeulB wrote...

So, the possibility of it being a bug is the reason she dies even if you use the ritual to get there faster has been ruled out? It's probably just wishful thinking on my part though. :c

No, Blood mage very clearly does not solve the situation. Try it and see what I mean. I thought this way too. Got a nasty little suprise.

[Kosh_Naranek]

BaronIveagh wrote...

Kosh_Naranek wrote...
The people going "Cheap emotional trickery! *fistshake*" need to grow up and realize that the not everything can be fixed or avoided, and the best stories are the ones that take that into account.

The problem is in this case where it's nonsensical and feels forced.  A well written hope spot is the things you suggest. (See Final Fantasy 7)

All those thigns that you mention earlier have logic to them.  There is a reason they take place.  This, however, takes place in defiance of logic.   Sure, the scene is very emotional, but if you stop and think about it, should never have happened.  Basically the game forces you to stop persuing the criminal not for any particular reason, but because the quest simply stops abruptly at a point where what any human being would have done would be examine the scene of the murder, the note that the Templar recived, and the warehouse much more closely, intead of wandering off like Sandel.

You're not a guard.  The Guards, presumably, are doing all of that.  Up until he grabs your mother, it's just one more crazy thing going on in the dangerous city of Kirkwall.  One can assume that, if there had been any clues at all, Alevine would have told you about them.

[Sonris89]

BaronIveagh wrote...

Kosh_Naranek wrote...
The people going "Cheap emotional trickery! *fistshake*" need to grow up and realize that the not everything can be fixed or avoided, and the best stories are the ones that take that into account.

The problem is in this case where it's nonsensical and feels forced.  A well written hope spot is the things you suggest. (See Final Fantasy 7)

All those things that you mention earlier have logic to them.  There is a reason they take place.  This, however, takes place in defiance of logic.   Sure, the scene is very emotional, but if you stop and think about it, should never have happened.  Basically the game forces you to stop pursuing the criminal not for any particular reason, but because the quest simply stops abruptly at a point where what any human being would have done would be examine the scene of the murder, the note that the Templar received, and the warehouse much more closely, instead of wandering off like Sandel.

But he sent demons to kill him. What was there to examine. you had the note that was written to him. There was nothing but a clawed up body.

[Grunk]

This game has been very good at getting a rise out of me. The first sibling death didn't bother me much because I didn't know him. Then I lost Bethany and was like "BARTRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAND!" Then I found Gascard and I was like "lol, It's obviously you. Time to die," and felt really good about myself, then I came home and they said Leandra was gone. "Nice, she's gone to see her suitor. Maybe she's getting some actio-Lilies? No no no no no."

I think the whole Frankenstein thing could've been played up more and made a lot more grotesque than it was. I was legitimately said that she died, though.

Then I thought Isabella split on me (she was my romance). lol, That was truly disheartening.

So I think there's places things could've been better executed, but overall, I feel good about how it all went down (in the sense of I enjoyed it as a reader/viewer/player).

[BaronIveagh]

Kosh_Naranek wrote...

You're not a guard.  The Guards, presumably, are doing all of that.  Up until he grabs your mother, it's just one more crazy thing going on in the dangerous city of Kirkwall.  One can assume that, if there had been any clues at all, Alevine would have told you about them.

Um... *points to the Captain of the Gaurd, who is in your party (and in my case was present for murder quests)*  see this person over here who has you solving crimes and beating up brigands?   The one who has you as a consultant every five min?  Why in the name of God would she not say 'I think we need to investigate this dead templar here we found surrounded by daemons summoned by blood magic?'  Particularly with how strident she was about a single lone boy that might become possessed wandering the streets and how it was a serious matter for the gaurd? 

Sonris89 wrote...
But he sent demons to kill him. What was
there to examine. you had the note that was written to him. There was
nothing but a clawed up body.

The note itself is an important clue.  The Templar and other people belived it came from you.  This means that someone delivered that note.  The note would have had to have been recognisably from you.  Given how much time they spend talking about seals, it probably would have borne yours.  This means that someone had access to your house. 

Modifié par BaronIveagh, 12 mars 2011 - 09:44 .

[AlexXIV]

I understand this with the emotional moment etc. but that still doesn't explain why there is no way to save her. I mean if they had like a hidden quest line then at least everyone would first time get to see the scene. So see it, get emotional and whatever and be done with it. Next time save her, everyone is happy. But no, now I play every single playthrough knowing it will happen and I can't do it different. And it wasn't even plot relevant or anything. Whether Hawke's mom dies or not does not change anything other than the feeling that Bioware doesn't know a better way to make Hawke grow on people than killing off almost her whole family. That's neither imaginative nor new nor anything. Of course people are emotional, but that's because people actually started to like Hawke and the whole family. That's no reason though to kill them off for good. Not in a game that is supposed to have choices and different endings anyway. Is it so much asked to have an ending with more than 2 Hawkes surviving?

Modifié par AlexXIV, 12 mars 2011 - 09:44 .

[Sonris89]

Like i said, they should have made this another moral dilema situation. Sacrifice something to gain something. Make Hawke have to bargin with the demons to let him get to her faster or something.

Give us options, and make them difficult (no more Redcliffe hero of the universe junk)

[Kosh_Naranek]

BaronIveagh wrote...

Um... *points to the Captain of the Gaurd, who is in your party (and in my case was present for murder quests)*  see this person over here who has you solving crimes and beating up brigands?   The one who has you as a consultant every five min?  Why in the name of God would she not say 'I think we need to investigate this dead templar here we found surrounded by daemons summoned by blood magic?'  Particularly with how strident she was about a single lone boy that might become possessed wandering the streets and how it was a serious matter for the gaurd? 

Sonris89 wrote...
But he sent demons to kill him. What was
there to examine. you had the note that was written to him. There was
nothing but a clawed up body.

The note itself is an important clue.  The Templar and other people belived it came from you.  This means that someone delivered that note.  The note would have had to have been recognisably from you.  Given how much time they spend talking about seals, it probably would have borne yours.  This means that someone had access to your house. 

Um.  Did you see the part where I directly mentioned Aveline in my very post, or were you so excited about rushing to point out a supposed hole in what I said that you skipped over it?  She would have said something to you if there were any clues.

As for the note, it could have very well just said "Hey, we need to meet. -Hawke".  We never see the note, after all.

[AlexXIV]

Sonris89 wrote...

Like i said, they should have made this another moral dilema situation. Sacrifice something to gain something. Make Hawke have to bargin with the demons to let him get to her faster or something.

Give us options, and make them difficult (no more Redcliffe hero of the universe junk)

Redcliffe was different. They brought it on themselves. So there would even have been a morale to it. Don't hide your mage siblings, don't invite bloodmages to teach them. But there wasn't even anything Hawke or her mom did wrong. And as I said, in my previous post, it is ok to do this as an option. But to just take the save mom option out of the game because they feel most people would take it ... then that would could count for any popular choice.

And that it was to show what bloodmages do is just stupid. I mean they could have made it that a templar abducted her and killed her. Or that Bethany would have been made tranquil in the Circle. But they didn't do that to make the Chantry and the templars look bad. It is just a sort of cheap vehicle to let the mages look bad because it is getting personal. The templars don't do anything against your family despite the fact that you're a family of apostates.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 12 mars 2011 - 09:54 .

[Kosh_Naranek]

AlexXIV wrote...

Sonris89 wrote...

Like i said, they should have made this another moral dilema situation. Sacrifice something to gain something. Make Hawke have to bargin with the demons to let him get to her faster or something.

Give us options, and make them difficult (no more Redcliffe hero of the universe junk)

Redcliffe was different. They brought it on themselves. So there would even have been a morale to it. Don't hide your mage siblings, don't invite bloodmages to teach them. But there wasn't even anything Hawke or her mom did wrong. And as I said, in my previous post, it is ok to do this as an option. But to just take the save mom option out of the game because they feel most people would take it ... then that would could count for any popular choice.

And that it was to show what bloodmages do is just stupid. I mean they could have made it that a templar abducted her and killed her. Or that Bethany would have been made tranquil in the Circle. But they didn't do that to make the Chantry and the templars look bad. It is just a sort of cheap vehicle to let the mages look bad because it is getting personal. The templars don't do anything against your family despite the fact that you're a family of apostates.

The Templars force Bethany into the Circle (or, I'm guessing, force Carver if you leave him behind instead) and were preparing to murder all of the mages in the Circle for something not their fault.

Some renegade mages hurt you personally.  The templar authority hurts everyone.  It's a choice with no really good answers.

Which is sort of what Dragon Age is about.

[AlexXIV]

Kosh_Naranek wrote...

AlexXIV wrote...

Sonris89 wrote...

Like i said, they should have made this another moral dilema situation. Sacrifice something to gain something. Make Hawke have to bargin with the demons to let him get to her faster or something.

Give us options, and make them difficult (no more Redcliffe hero of the universe junk)

Redcliffe was different. They brought it on themselves. So there would even have been a morale to it. Don't hide your mage siblings, don't invite bloodmages to teach them. But there wasn't even anything Hawke or her mom did wrong. And as I said, in my previous post, it is ok to do this as an option. But to just take the save mom option out of the game because they feel most people would take it ... then that would could count for any popular choice.

And that it was to show what bloodmages do is just stupid. I mean they could have made it that a templar abducted her and killed her. Or that Bethany would have been made tranquil in the Circle. But they didn't do that to make the Chantry and the templars look bad. It is just a sort of cheap vehicle to let the mages look bad because it is getting personal. The templars don't do anything against your family despite the fact that you're a family of apostates.

The Templars force Bethany into the Circle (or, I'm guessing, force Carver if you leave him behind instead) and were preparing to murder all of the mages in the Circle for something not their fault.

Some renegade mages hurt you personally.  The templar authority hurts everyone.  It's a choice with no really good answers.

Which is sort of what Dragon Age is about.

The point is one is a general evil, and the other is an evil that happend to your family. And there goes objectivity out of the window. That's why it is cheap. They take Bethany but nothing happens to her. At least in my playthrough I could have her back in the end. Even though the circle things sucked, mind you. Thing is there is no way I can save Hawke's mom, and it leads up to the first enchanter who also turns out to be a bloodmage and turns into a monster without need (if you side with the mages).

[Sonris89]

AlexXIV wrote...

Sonris89 wrote...

Like i said, they should have made this another moral dilema situation. Sacrifice something to gain something. Make Hawke have to bargin with the demons to let him get to her faster or something.

Give us options, and make them difficult (no more Redcliffe hero of the universe junk)

Redcliffe was different. They brought it on themselves. So there would even have been a morale to it. Don't hide your mage siblings, don't invite bloodmages to teach them. But there wasn't even anything Hawke or her mom did wrong. And as I said, in my previous post, it is ok to do this as an option. But to just take the save mom option out of the game because they feel most people would take it ... then that would could count for any popular choice.

And that it was to show what bloodmages do is just stupid. I mean they could have made it that a templar abducted her and killed her. Or that Bethany would have been made tranquil in the Circle. But they didn't do that to make the Chantry and the templars look bad. It is just a sort of cheap vehicle to let the mages look bad because it is getting personal. The templars don't do anything against your family despite the fact that you're a family of apostates.

What really bothered me about redcliffe is that they set up this great moral dilemma, kill the boy to free him and stop the undead... Use blood magic and kill someone else for sacrifice to save the boy, or go all the way to the circle of magi and endanger everyone for altrustic reasons. And ruin it by making the goto the circle the only non douche choice. Like the game designer said regarding the mother. If they gave us an option other then her tragic death, we would just treat it as a failure and never use it.

[AlexXIV]

Sonris89 wrote...
What really bothered me about redcliffe is that they set up this great moral dilemma, kill the boy to free him and stop the undead... Use blood magic and kill someone else for sacrifice to save the boy, or go all the way to the circle of magi and endanger everyone for altrustic reasons. And ruin it by making the goto the circle the only non douche choice. Like the game designer said regarding the mother. If they gave us an option other then her tragic death, we would just treat it as a failure and never use it.

Well I agree. That's why I say what happened to Hawke's mom is diffferent. I don't even want to compare these two because people are going to say at least this time bioware did it right. Which is wrong, because for once, no morale dilemma, and also no choice at all.