830 réponses à ce sujet

[Whatever42]

Terror_K wrote...

<snip>

If they want to branch out and appeal to the mainstream and the lowest common denominator, then fine... I'm not saying they shouldn't. But if they want to do that they should do it with a new IP instead of saboutaging their existing ones and twisting them into something they originally weren't for the sake of it. Why can't they make games for both their existing fanbase who want proper RPGs and for newcomers as well? They've just sold out now... Mike Laidlaw has pretty much admitted it and admitted that Dragon Age has pretty much be rebooted and retooled for the mainstream console audience.
<snip>

I wish you'd stop with the insulting language.  Just because different people prefer different gameplay mechanisms doesn't mean that they're the lowest common denominator. It's almost like you're trying to pick a fight.

That said, I don't completely disagree with some of your points. I argue with you about ME2 because I think the ME series was always supposed to be an action shooter-hybrid. They were just really dissatisified with their design in ME1, whether you were or not.

However, DA:O mechanics (the love-note to the BG crowd) were just fine. And I enjoyed them. Now, I enjoy DA2 as well but it really is a different kind of game and I'm not sure I'm enjoying it quite as much. It makes me a little sad that the old mechanics seem gone forever, especially when they seemed quite popular.

[Dragoonlordz]

I agree with Terror, the characters in ME1 were superior imho I was much more attached to what happened to them than ME2 ones, with one exception being Joker who is just epic regardless.

[Il Divo]

Terror_K wrote...

While I found ME1's cast to be some of the most real, down-to-earth and believable characters, while most of ME2's cast come across as gimmicky, over-the-top, comic book style super-companions. What exactly is your point then?

What's yours? Mine is that if he wishes to bring up Mass Effect's superior characters, plot, environments, then he should back it up with something beyond what he gave us. If we're just going to sit around spouting conclusions, we're going nowhere fast, hence why him saying that Mass Effect featured better characters does not get us much farther than me saying Mass Effect 2 had better characters.

We're basically just saying:

"Mass Effect is better!"
"No, Mass Effect 2 is better!" ad infinitum.

Modifié par Il Divo, 09 mars 2011 - 05:31 .

[The Spamming Troll]

terrorK is right.

i couldnt tell you what games sold the most, but i sure as hell could tell you which ones were appreciated the most.

[Whatever42]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

terrorK is right.

i couldnt tell you what games sold the most, but i sure as hell could tell you which ones were appreciated the most.

The one that got one of the highest reviewer scores in history and blew away the record for GOTY wins, winning practically every major gaming award out there? And don't say it was a bad year, there were some amazing releases in 2010.

[Lunatic LK47]

Terror_K wrote...

While I found ME1's cast to be some of the most real, down-to-earth and believable characters, while most of ME2's cast come across as gimmicky, over-the-top, comic book style super-companions. What exactly is your point then?

Uh, let's see

Tali: Nothing more than a walking codex entry for the Quarians, and we know little to nothing about her other than her being homesick and being an admiral's daughter.

Liara: Little more than a walking codex entry for the Asari, is little more than the stereotypical high school girl we want to bump uglies with and marry, just because. Let's not forget the interactions with her just felt bland overall. I actually prefered ME2 just because she actually developed a spine and was the main reason Shepard's still alive.

Kaidan: Walking codex entry for Biotic training, and very little tidbits about him other than "I want to be the knight in shining armor, and nothing more than that." As a result, he just ended up bland, and a slight step above Carth, but that's *NOT* saying much.

As it is, only half of the squad felt developed, and believe it or not, I actually relate to Garrus, and was nearly in Wrex's shoes in the Patricide department. Ash, nothing too special, but at least you could develop her depending on how you handled your interactions with her.

[Vena_86]

Yes I am hesitant. I don't doubt the abilities of the developers, but I'm not happy with every single AAA game going the same design direction. I also don't want to deal with all the DLC crap which is getting worse and worse. Puzzling the game together is a new minigame or what?

[Lunatic LK47]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

However, DA:O mechanics (the love-note to the BG crowd) were just fine. And I enjoyed them. Now, I enjoy DA2 as well but it really is a different kind of game and I'm not sure I'm enjoying it quite as much. It makes me a little sad that the old mechanics seem gone forever, especially when they seemed quite popular.

Thing is, Dragon Age was better off as a PC exclusive and should not have had any business with the consoles whatsoever. That's the one reason why I ended up hating the game, playing it on the 360 was just a freaking chore and KOTOR 1's system was miles better than Dragon Age in just about every way.

[Super ._. Shepard]

i will still buy ME

[jeweledleah]

@ Lunatic - it was an issue with both games that you can only get some of the extra info if you were the correct gender. Kaidan has a lot more lines for femshep, and you can change some of his views as well. I've played as both femshep and maleshep at this point and it almost feels like they wanted you to play both in order to experience the game to the fullest..

[Terror_K]

Il Divo wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

While I found ME1's cast to be some of the most real, down-to-earth and believable characters, while most of ME2's cast come across as gimmicky, over-the-top, comic book style super-companions. What exactly is your point then?

What's yours? Mine is that if he wishes to bring up Mass Effect's superior characters, plot, environments, then he should back it up with something beyond what he gave us. If we're just going to sit around spouting conclusions, we're going nowhere fast, hence why him saying that Mass Effect featured better characters does not get us much farther than me saying Mass Effect 2 had better characters.

We're basically just saying:

"Mass Effect is better!"
"No, Mass Effect 2 is better!" ad infinitum.

That won't do any good. Both sides have brought up countless examples of why their preferred version is better and backed it up in the last two plys years, but most of the time it comes down to taste, and thus there are only a few factors both sides agree on and arguing about it is generally fruitless. What Mass Effect "is better" is purely a point of view based on tastes. What I personally think though is that given the original Mass Effect came first and given the initial comments and claims from the devs as to what the series was that the entire series should remain consistent with this. A series shouldn't be retooled and changed part the way though just to branch out to a new audience.

Had ME2 been how the game started out then I wouldn't have much of an issue with it. I admittedly wouldn't have probably become the big fan of it I did thanks to ME1, but I wouldn't be here complaining about it more than a year after release. I just expect a series to remain consistent, whether it's for me or not.

[The Spamming Troll]

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

terrorK is right.

i couldnt tell you what games sold the most, but i sure as hell could tell you which ones were appreciated the most.

The one that got one of the highest reviewer scores in history and blew away the record for GOTY wins, winning practically every major gaming award out there? And don't say it was a bad year, there were some amazing releases in 2010.

awards mean nothing to me when im playing a video game. same reason ive never watched a movie because it won an oscar.

its disheartening to think that ME1 is going to be the best game in the franchise.

[Dragoonlordz]

Relying on game sales does not make a good game though, just great advertising and publicity off the back of a previous very popular title. Just because X amount of people bought doesn't X amount of people liked if know what I mean it doesn't include X amount of people ebayed right after playing 5 minutes.

Modifié par Dragoonlordz, 09 mars 2011 - 05:44 .

[Whatever42]

Lunatic LK47 wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

However, DA:O mechanics (the love-note to the BG crowd) were just fine. And I enjoyed them. Now, I enjoy DA2 as well but it really is a different kind of game and I'm not sure I'm enjoying it quite as much. It makes me a little sad that the old mechanics seem gone forever, especially when they seemed quite popular.

Thing is, Dragon Age was better off as a PC exclusive and should not have had any business with the consoles whatsoever. That's the one reason why I ended up hating the game, playing it on the 360 was just a freaking chore and KOTOR 1's system was miles better than Dragon Age in just about every way.

Fair enough. I only ever played it on the PC. I agree that the console market is a big deal and they have to produce games that work will there too. However, I'm going to pull a T_K here... I think they could have improved the interface to make it more console friendly without changing it THAT much. I won't get into a full critique here but they did more than make it console friendly. It's not even so much the new mechanics that are bugging me, its the design of the game.

But I still like it. I'll finish it before I fully judge it.

[Spornicus]

The only reason the plot of ME1 was better than ME2 was because of the Virmire level, which is probably the best video game level I've ever played in my life. It'd be tough to top that and so much more of ME1, which was freaking brilliant in so many ways. I'll definitely be camping out of whatever store's closest so I can give up the outside world for a few days and, once again, completely immerse myself in Bioware gold.

[Whatever42]

The Spamming Troll wrote...

Whatever666343431431654324 wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

terrorK is right.

i couldnt tell you what games sold the most, but i sure as hell could tell you which ones were appreciated the most.

The one that got one of the highest reviewer scores in history and blew away the record for GOTY wins, winning practically every major gaming award out there? And don't say it was a bad year, there were some amazing releases in 2010.

awards mean nothing to me when im playing a video game. same reason ive never watched a movie because it won an oscar.

its disheartening to think that ME1 is going to be the best game in the franchise.

Oh, you said most appreciated but not sales so that's the only way I could think to measure it. Unless you meant appreciated most by you? Sorry you didn't like it. You are in a small minority but I've been there so I know it disappointing.

[Lunatic LK47]

jeweledleah wrote...

@ Lunatic - it was an issue with both games that you can only get some of the extra info if you were the correct gender. Kaidan has a lot more lines for femshep, and you can change some of his views as well. I've played as both femshep and maleshep at this point and it almost feels like they wanted you to play both in order to experience the game to the fullest..

Don't get me wrong, that's just the general impression I got from Kaidan, just my views here. What I meant to say is as a full character, there's almost nothing about him that stands out as much.  I didn't forget about changing his views if you're a female Shepard.. I have six Shepards total (50/50 split for both genders, and I already have one save file with a Shenko pairing just to explore the relationship.)

[Il Divo]

Terror_K wrote...
Had ME2 been how the game started out then I wouldn't have much of an issue with it. I admittedly wouldn't have probably become the big fan of it I did thanks to ME1, but I wouldn't be here complaining about it more than a year after release. I just expect a series to remain consistent, whether it's for me or not.

And I can sympathize. However, I have played every Bioware game which has come out, excluding Neverwinter Nights and can say with satisfaction that I found Mass Effect 2's direction to be more refreshing/overall more quality than what we received in Mass Effect. I personally don't mind consistency in the grand scheme of things if I can find something about the changes to enjoy, which was especially the case of Mass Effect 2.

Take the inventory for example. Many complain about the lack of an inventory. The best solution would of course have been for Mass Effect 2 to redesign how things worked. Yet, barring that as a possibility, if given the choice between the ME1 inventory and no inventory, I gladly choose the latter. Same with planet exploration.

I can even give you an example in the opposite direction. Mass Effect had a terrible gameplay for a tps, imo. Imagine if Bioware had instead decided to revamp the game to a turn-based system, and made an effort of making it enjoyable, I would not care whether this met the original vision of Mass Effect (as an action-RPG featuring real-time combat). Only that, overall, the game experienced some improvement to make it more enjoyable. That, in my opinion, is more important than holding to certain expectations, which can change over time.

[Rekkampum]

SpaceDesperado wrote...

I certainly am, don't get me wrong I was a huge bioware fan, I bought and played ME1, ME2, and DA:O, since day 1 release. Check out my gamertag, I even play the KOTOR games from time to time. However, even though i enjoyed the original mass effect and dragon age, mass effect 2 left a very sour taste in my mouth. It is the only bioware game that i own that i have not played through twice, and it probably will stay that way. I still bought most of the dlc's  because I am still in love with this great lore that bioware has created.

Now that we have seen how gamespot says that dragon age 2 has followed ME2 traditions with all the rpg systems stripped down to their bare minimum. I wonder since Dragon Age 2 and Mass Effect 2 were released relatively soon after the original games, obviously with EA's influence, if that was the ultimate reason to strip down all these crucial rpg elements like taking out free-roam planetary sections and giving the great Commander Shepard scanning duties. Now Mass Effect 3 is coming out, much sooner than probably any other bioware sequel...

So to that brings me to my main arguement, should we trust bioware to give us a fully immersive rpg game like the original mass effect, making it a guranteed first day purchase or will we get a cover-based third person shooter in exotic enviroments with minimum customisation options, making it a game that will go down to $20 in less than a year.

You are comparing apples and oranges. Bioware's DA 2 isn't a terrible game for those who have the console version - I hear the PC is fairly subpar. Both Mass Effect games on the other hand, have received plenty of critical acclaim. 

Also, let's avoid relying on just one review. Of course for purists, the changes won't be liked, but that doesn't mean the games are going to become full-fledged shooters. BTW, doesn't Fall Out 3 incorporate some shooter mechanics? Let's not limit the potential of what an RPG - especially a next-gen RPG- can be. 

As for ME 2, everyone knows those free-roaming sections in ME1 got old quickly with their repetitiveness. There's only so much joy one can get out of traveling for ten minutes across a mostly vacant landscape towards all-too-familiar bases. ME 2 still had some areas you could travel through freely, though not on as grand a scale, but in ME1's case, quantity did not equal quality. In ME2, there was also a lot of variety in the side missions, and in the places you could free-roam (Citadel, Omega, Illium, etc.) there was a lot more detail. 

ME3 will most likely be a hybrid of ME2 and 1, since they've been evolving the playing experience since and have already promised it will have some significant RPG elements. Also, you're ignoring one key fact. Hudson and the BW team were already working on Mass Effect 3 before ME 2 released. The PS3 version of ME2 in fact uses the engine that ME3 will be using, and the story's already finished. The final game will release on time, and you'll love it.

[Il Divo]

SpaceDesperado wrote...

1)  Mass Effect 1 sold a lot of copies for a xbox 360 exclusive, mostly because of good reviews and bioware.

Mass Effect 2 got better reviews, and has also sold extremely well. But as others have pointed out, reviews/sales don't say much if games like Planescape Torment are anything to go by (sales-wise that is).

3) Mass Effect 2 got huge amount of hype because of the first and praise
from reviewers prior to release, people prior to release didn't know
loot and other rpg elements would be stripped down. This is why it sold
a lot at first, and stopped selling, in fact, it sold pratically the same as the original. Probably people the same people who bought mass effect, just to be dissapointed with the outcomes of their choices and gameplay decisions.

Unsupported claim.

4) Dragon Age 2 will not sell as well as ME1, ME2 or DA:o

Unsupported claim.

5) Bioware is soon going to lose their credibility despite what some of you in these forums believe, they have stopped making new innovative rpg elements in their games but have instead decided to make them more streamlined.

Another unsupported claim.

6) People are realising these games are not going to have as much replay value or even depth for a first day purchase. They could just as easily buy a game with the same gameplay, same types of upgrades but atleast those games have multiplayer and are dedicated to the action part of the gameplay. Choices, that barely mean anything as of late in bioware games, can't be enough to distinguish it from other games and call it "RPG".

And, we have an unsupported claim.

7) Look at how shocked us Mass Effect fans got when ME2 turned to $20 in less than a year. People will remember this and many people will not purchase Mass Effect 3 until it goes on sale or bargain bin.

Unsupport...no, that would be too easy.

[Thompson family]

Dialogue,  side tasks,  and making choices do not make a game an RPG.  In this case,  it made it a TPS with dialogue.  I'm in constant amazement that if there's more than 2 minutes of dialogue in a game people try to claim it's an RPG. (etc)

Gee, I thought an RPG is a role playing game. After all, that's what the letters stand for.


Here's the role I play: Frank Shepard, earthborn, soldier, Akuze survivor, Paragon Saint, savior of the Rachni, Savior of the Council, Loyal friend of the living Urdnot Wrex, faithful lover of Liara T'Soni,a man who'd rather let a terrorist go than let innocent civilians die, who rescued the colony on Feros without killing a single colonist, reprogrammer of Geth, who blew up the Collector Base and laughed in TIM's face about it, brought his whole crew back alive,  etc. etc. and all on Insanity.

He is not Commander Shepard, space bum with a grocery cart he uses to push around his miser's hoard of useless junk.

It's blindingly obvious what you want,  a story and action,  so perhaps what you really should be doing is posting on the FPS and TPS developer's forum's demanding they actually add story to their action games instead of heading into RPG forums demanding that they eliminate the entire RPG framework so you can play a Shooter with a story.

No, what is blindly obvious is that I don't want a highly realistic computer simulation of dumpster diving.

Regardless,  doesn't matter.  As DA2's forums make quite clear now,  Bioware's not going to be here in 3 years.

OK. On March 8, 2014, I'll send you a personal message apologizing if you're right. If BW is still in business, you do the same.

Modifié par Thompson family, 09 mars 2011 - 06:18 .

[Rekkampum]

OK. On March 8, 2014, I'll send you a personal message apologizing if you're right. If BW is still in business, you do the same.

I'll second that. These guys have an even bigger cash cow than Mass Effect coming out (The Old Republic) and they want to make that kind of prediction? 

Riiiiight.