830 réponses à ce sujet

[Mister Mida]

I'll get ME3 regardless how it's gonna be. Not because I think it will be great or not, more because I want to know how the story ends. The story/plot/whatever in ME2 is probably the worst/least good I've seen in a Bioware game so I'm hoping they're gonna improve on that. After ME3, I'll be more careful in deciding whether I will buy the countless spin-offs it will no doubt get.

Modifié par Mister Mida, 09 mars 2011 - 09:37 .

[Terror_K]

Il Divo wrote...

And I can sympathize. However, I have played every Bioware game which has come out, excluding Neverwinter Nights and can say with satisfaction that I found Mass Effect 2's direction to be more refreshing/overall more quality than what we received in Mass Effect. I personally don't mind consistency in the grand scheme of things if I can find something about the changes to enjoy, which was especially the case of Mass Effect 2.

See, I didn't actually enjoy most of the changes at all. I could see why in many cases, and I even agreed with many to an extent, but I found in most cases they were changes that could have been great if added a little more subtlely or mixed with existing ME1 elements, but instead BioWare took things too far, simplified too much and just made things too simple and shallow in the process.

Take the inventory for example. Many complain about the lack of an inventory. The best solution would of course have been for Mass Effect 2 to redesign how things worked. Yet, barring that as a possibility, if given the choice between the ME1 inventory and no inventory, I gladly choose the latter. Same with planet exploration.

I disagree here too. ME1's inventory was flawed, yes. I'll fully admit that. But at least they tried. I'd rather have an overly complex inventory that at least tries and has some degree of customisation and depth over one that doesn't try at all, is completely linear and devoid of any proper customisation and is just so plain and simple that's it's tediously boring. The same goes for exploration: I absolutely adored exploring these vast, dead worlds in ME1. There was nothing like that in ME2, and it only made the universe feel small, linear and overpopulated, and thus completely fake. Planet exploration wasn't even something I'd call a strong RPG element, but it was a great sci-fi one.

I can even give you an example in the opposite direction. Mass Effect had a terrible gameplay for a tps, imo. Imagine if Bioware had instead decided to revamp the game to a turn-based system, and made an effort of making it enjoyable, I would not care whether this met the original vision of Mass Effect (as an action-RPG featuring real-time combat). Only that, overall, the game experienced some improvement to make it more enjoyable. That, in my opinion, is more important than holding to certain expectations, which can change over time.

See, as Pro-RPG as I am, I don't think being turn-based or dice-roll based would have suited Mass Effect either. Nor do I think having base stats such as Strength, Dex, Con, etc. would or more passive skills like Acrobatics, Swimming, etc. I think ME1 had the balance about right, maybe even being a little too much on the RPG side of things, but the main issue was it was clumsy and cumbersome and overly complex in areas where it didn't need to be. ME2 overcompensated by being too simple at everything, to the point where it even takes away some of the choice, control and depth that I feel players should still have (weapon modding is a classic example of something that should have remained).

Beyond the gameplay changes, what actually bothered me more was how the presentation changed overall from being a mature, sci-fi space opera homage to the great sci-fi movies and shows of the late 70's to early 90's for sci-fi nerds of the era into more of an over-the-top modern Hollywood blockbuster action flick affair made for teenagers. Beyond that the whole thing just seemed to be presented a little more juvenile and I felt was even insulting to my intelligence a lot of the time, as well as breaking my immersion. Non-gameplay factors like the Mission Complete screens, giant pictured pop-ups, loading screens, childlike interfaces, massive plotholes and lore inconsistencies and squaddies running around in almost nothing in the dangers of space did far more harm to ME2 to me than any watered-down gameplay factor did.

[Kenthen]

I'm looking forward to ME3 a lot. I can't say I've cared much about DA2 so far though and while I probably will get it at some point, it doesn't really feel like a must-have.

[michaelius_pl]

I'll wait and see reviews and opinions as after great Kotor, JE and good ME1 i lost the faith i had in Bioware due to ME2 (too simplified, bad story) and DAO (boring in certain areas) and DA2 demo was final nail in the coffin in which i put my trust for Bioware.

[CannotCompute]

Terror_K wrote...

See, as Pro-RPG as I am, I don't think being turn-based or dice-roll based would have suited Mass Effect either. Nor do I think having base stats such as Strength, Dex, Con, etc. would or more passive skills like Acrobatics, Swimming, etc. I think ME1 had the balance about right, maybe even being a little too much on the RPG side of things, but the main issue was it was clumsy and cumbersome and overly complex in areas where it didn't need to be. ME2 overcompensated by being too simple at everything, to the point where it even takes away some of the choice, control and depth that I feel players should still have (weapon modding is a classic example of something that should have remained).

Beyond the gameplay changes, what actually bothered me more was how the presentation changed overall from being a mature, sci-fi space opera homage to the great sci-fi movies and shows of the late 70's to early 90's for sci-fi nerds of the era into more of an over-the-top modern Hollywood blockbuster action flick affair made for teenagers. Beyond that the whole thing just seemed to be presented a little more juvenile and I felt was even insulting to my intelligence a lot of the time, as well as breaking my immersion. Non-gameplay factors like the Mission Complete screens, giant pictured pop-ups, loading screens, childlike interfaces, massive plotholes and lore inconsistencies and squaddies running around in almost nothing in the dangers of space did far more harm to ME2 to me than any watered-down gameplay factor did.

Well put, sir. I Agree 100%.

Modifié par CannotCompute, 09 mars 2011 - 04:55 .

[InvincibleHero]

I'll probably wait for DA2 to come down in price. The demo did not impress me overmuch. I liked the story delviery and cutscenes and the level up screen where it told you the increased secondary stats as you added points into something. I did not like the arcadey combat. At level 5 my figther was chopping through 6 hurlocks with one attack. Darkspawn are supposed to be fearsom not fodder. I got the feeling I was Superman from level one.

I haven't been here lately because the Ultimate Edition DA:O has got me playing.

[Mynoot]

Let's face it, the game play was awesome, but the story was extremely weak.  BW seems to be going downhill on the story lately.  Maybe it's a slump, maybe it's a sign. Who knows?

But would it have been so hard for them to link Wilson to the Shadow Broker to close that gap?  This isn't hard, not really or is the DLC intended for revenue only and not story progression?

[Franzius]

Personally I will skip DA2.
I have bought all the previous Bioware games on DAY1.
DA2 is the first one that I will take only when the ultimate edition will be super-discounted (in the next 2-3 year).

The reason? Because I find ME2 very disappointing (as well as DA2 demo).
It is not only about the lack of the RPG features but mainly it has to do with the extreme linearity of the levels...
The galaxy of ME has now become a series of linear, unrealistic & short levels with dialogue cut scenes.

This is the major flaw of ME2 to me. This same linearity I have spotted also in DA2.
What about ME3 ?!?! Reading the recent interview of C. Norman makes me thinks that the third one will be a clone of ME2 without planet scanning...

So the worse (to me!!!) has still to come!

Modifié par Franzius, 09 mars 2011 - 12:43 .

[Tasker]

Ares Caesar wrote...

Each game has its flaws, but they're far better than any other RPG's on the market.

Disregarding what I think about changes that were made and which one I thought was better, on the whole you are right, they are good games.

But for me, in terms of story, characterisation and overall fun experiance  "The Dragon Knight Saga" by Larian Studios is the best RPG on the market at the moment.

Sure, Larian are only a small German studio and they can't lavish the money on things that Bioware can, but for me, they've created some of the best RPGs around.

[Knottedredloc]

Terror_K wrote...

Beyond the gameplay changes, what actually bothered me more was how the presentation changed overall from being a mature, sci-fi space opera homage to the great sci-fi movies and shows of the late 70's to early 90's for sci-fi nerds of the era into more of an over-the-top modern Hollywood blockbuster action flick affair made for teenagers. Beyond that the whole thing just seemed to be presented a little more juvenile and I felt was even insulting to my intelligence a lot of the time, as well as breaking my immersion. Non-gameplay factors like the Mission Complete screens, giant pictured pop-ups, loading screens, childlike interfaces, massive plotholes and lore inconsistencies and squaddies running around in almost nothing in the dangers of space did far more harm to ME2 to me than any watered-down gameplay factor did.

Very well put!  This comment should be faxed, mail, email,  delivered in person, texted, etc., to everyone responsible for ME2 and anyone working on ME3.  

[VolusNamedBob]

In ME1 the RPG elements bogged down the game; sorting out inventories, selling and buying items, sorting through hundreds of useless items, lack of variety in the weapons etc. Sometimes it felt more like a chore. ME2 was far more entertaining, there was actually some variety instead of a change in number.

Sorry, but ME1 now feels mediocre to me.

[Lumikki]

Yeah, the end battle with Saren was so mature and intelligent. *wink*

[Babli]

Terror_K wrote...
Beyond the gameplay changes, what actually bothered me more was how the presentation changed overall from being a mature, sci-fi space opera homage to the great sci-fi movies and shows of the late 70's to early 90's for sci-fi nerds of the era into more of an over-the-top modern Hollywood blockbuster action flick affair made for teenagers. Beyond that the whole thing just seemed to be presented a little more juvenile and I felt was even insulting to my intelligence a lot of the time, as well as breaking my immersion. Non-gameplay factors like the Mission Complete screens, giant pictured pop-ups, loading screens, childlike interfaces, massive plotholes and lore inconsistencies and squaddies running around in almost nothing in the dangers of space did far more harm to ME2 to me than any watered-down gameplay factor did.

Indeed. I dont care what everyone else says, the game was dumbed down in almost every aspect and I dont like it.

What proves this dumbing down is this quote from Christina Norman about ME 1...

"and there were also people who would just say things like, “I find this
game confusing,” “I try to play it and my gun isn’t hitting anybody and
I don’t know what’s going on,” and other sort of things. So there were
certain aspects of the gameplay that were making the game inaccessable
to players."

And yes, I am hesitant to buy anything from Bioware after ME 2. Especially when I know that there is a lot of cutted out content that will be sold as DLC.

[Zeikan]

Well, I thinks that ME2 is a good game, I mean, it's not bad, the problem is that my favorite genre is RPG, and sadly good RPGs are not everywhere, It's harder to find that a good FPS

But then there is Bioware that make RPG that I like, the last ones being DA:O and ME1, then it comes ME2 that is a good game but it's not really what I would call an RPG, there are more and more games with the possibility to upgrade your weapons and change your outfit, the only two thing that remain RPG-ish to my eyes, are the dialogues, and the skills, but then again, there are really few skills, so... if there weren't the dialogs I would think of Ninja Gaiden 1 more of an RPG than ME2. No more weapon customization, no more party member customization, no more looting, no more trading.

Instead of a lot of good rpg stuff there is just some annoying hacking mini games everywhere to get some money to buy some upgrades, why not just give us the upgrades as skills, and get rid of that annoying hacking games? or make a "automatic hacking" option with omni gel? because seriously, I would rather get rid of that upgrading system than keep it as it is, they stripped out a lot of rpg stuff to let simplified parts that are more annoying that anithing else.

So at the end i'm dissapointed not because I didn't liked the game, but because I wanted a good RPG-Action hybrid, like an improoved ME1, but appart the universe, story, dialogs options, both games have almost nothing in common.

ME1 was good, but of course ME2 will be superior in many ways, it's newer, better graphics, they are not starting from scratch, etc etc, but... Imagin ME1 with ME2 graphics, and improved inventory (Like pile up the same upgrades/weapons, having a little less grades like only 5 not 10, with greater improvements per grade, better interface, etc etc...) Weapons variation like in ME2 but keeping the upgrading system, and having 2/3 different models for each weapon, with different stats, but same firing system. Armor customization like in ME2 but with a little more armors (maybe same models but different custom textures, and not just the color of the armor, or adding camo parrens, and different effects, protections etc...) and keeping the upgrading system once more. and stuff like this, merging the ME1 system, with the ME2 system.
That would have been for me a *real* improvement and would have been perfect for the sequel of ME1, but instead of improving the existing systems, they completely changed it, removing all the good aspects of the old system (a real RPG system), dissapointing a lot of RPG fans who loved ME1, and end up with an Action+Action+Action+ a little Rpg-ish features gamre, instead of a real Action/Rpg game with the best parts of each.

And about DA2 I won't even talk about it, it's really insulting after DA:O to see it follow the ME2 path, and not even doing it well. (Yeah I'm saying that ME2 successfully changed, it's just that it changed to a genre that i don't like as much as RPG, But DA2 failed IMO in becoming less classic RPG, so it's a double fail for me.)

[Nozybidaj]

SpaceDesperado wrote...
Hesitant to buy ME3 after ME2 & DA2?

I was hesitant enough after ME2 not to buy DA2.  After doing some reading kinda glad I didn't.  I'll give ME3 info a glance prior to release but I doubt I'll be getting it either, It would be quite a feat to fix all the things ME2 messed up and the short dev cycle isn't really inspiring confidence that it will happen.

[Mynoot]

VolusNamedBob wrote...

In ME1 the RPG elements bogged down the game; sorting out inventories, selling and buying items, sorting through hundreds of useless items, lack of variety in the weapons etc. Sometimes it felt more like a chore. ME2 was far more entertaining, there was actually some variety instead of a change in number.

Sorry, but ME1 now feels mediocre to me.

That's why they revamped the mechanics and combat system, but that doesn't explain the terrible falacies in the logic of certain physics (Shaperd not exploding from decompression, not being vaporized on re-entry followed by impact) and social aspects.

This thread is more about the story problems than the gameplay.

Modifié par Mynoot, 09 mars 2011 - 03:42 .

[Whatever42]

AlphaJarmel wrote...

I'm actually pretty glad that DA2 is getting savaged in the reviews.  It'll make Bioware want to make Mass Effect 3 perfect after having one flop already.  I would much rather sacrifice DA for a great ME game and Bioware is going to need to be on top form for this last entry.  So if they need to delay the game to polish it, I pray to god that they do.

 
Just to introduce a little perspective here: DA2 is getting reviews with similar scores to Fallout NV. Neither game may have been the best work but I wouldn't call it being savaged.

[STG]

Hesitant to buy ME3 after ME2 & DA2?

Very.

[Kandid001]

Those who praise and enjoy DA2 aside, I'm sort of glad DA2 is getting squished by some fans and pro critics. It'll make BioWare focus on ME3 to make it a full and enjoyable game instead of half assing it.

[Spectreshadow]

 Hell to the no.

[Il Divo]

Terror_K...
I disagree here too. ME1's inventory was flawed, yes. I'll fully admit that. But at least they tried. I'd rather have an overly complex inventory that at least tries and has some degree of customisation and depth over one that doesn't try at all, is completely linear and devoid of any proper customisation and is just so plain and simple that's it's tediously boring.

So here's a question:

Why does it matter that Bioware tried to create an inventory if the finished product is so lacking in presentation? If I don't experience any entertainment from Mass Effect's attempt at an inventory, why is it so necessary for the feature to return? 

You say that Mass Effect 2 is devoid of customization, which is true. However, Mass Effect was just as plain, simple, and if anything even more tedious/boring. Mass Effect's weapon progression was also completely linear.

Deep, enjoyable gameplay mechanics are not achieved by throwing a million lifeless weapons at the player base. I spent far more time creating omni-gel than I ever did customizing Shepard + company. That is not a good sign, for an RPG. All this did was continue to remove me from the story/events of the game. At the very least, Mass Effect 2 avoided this. I was not pulled from the events of the game every few minutes for omni-gel.

I agree with you that it would have been great if Bioware had gone back and redesigned the inventory from the ground up. But Terror, you almost make it sound like Mass Effect was on the level of Baldur's Gate in terms of character customization, when the customization it offered was already quite bland/lifeless. It felt more like Bioware added an inventory simply because Mass Effect is an rpg and gamers think all rpgs must have inventories, rather than because they thought the system worked well.  

The same goes for exploration: I absolutely adored exploring these vast, dead worlds in ME1. There was nothing like that in ME2, and it only made the universe feel small, linear and overpopulated, and thus completely fake. Planet exploration wasn't even something I'd call a strong RPG element, but it was a great sci-fi one.

And I couldn't disagree more on this, I'm afraid. You say you adored the vast, dead worlds of Mass Effect. That's fair. I however felt that, along with the inventory, planet exploration was one of the game's greatest flaws, especially since side quests were so heavily tied into them.
 
I'm a huge Elder Scrolls fan.
Part of the appeal in exploration has always been in finding something incredible to explore, an ancient ruin, artifacts,etc. Mass Effect had none of this. You described the planets of Mass Effect very accurately: dead. When every world feels exactly the same, exploration loses all its value, in my opinion.  

See, as Pro-RPG as I am, I don't think being turn-based or dice-roll based would have suited Mass Effect either. Nor do I think having base stats such as Strength, Dex, Con, etc. would or more passive skills like Acrobatics, Swimming, etc. I think ME1 had the balance about right, maybe even being a little too much on the RPG side of things, but the main issue was it was clumsy and cumbersome and overly complex in areas where it didn't need to be. ME2 overcompensated by being too simple at everything, to the point where it even takes away some of the choice, control and depth that I feel players should still have (weapon modding is a classic example of something that should have remained).

Weapon-modding should have remained.

Modifié par Il Divo, 09 mars 2011 - 04:14 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Kandid001 wrote...

Those who praise and enjoy DA2 aside, I'm sort of glad DA2 is getting squished by some fans and pro critics. It'll make BioWare focus on ME3 to make it a full and enjoyable game instead of half assing it.

I'm afraid not. Something tells me the ME3 development is clearing the last curve, so we'll have to deal with the consequences of ME2's getting those 150 GOTYs. It'll be even more shiny, even more retard-proof, and packing even less sense. And if something goes wrong with the "critical acclaim" this time, EA can simply ditch the franchise.

[Fiery Phoenix]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

Kandid001 wrote...

Those who praise and enjoy DA2 aside, I'm sort of glad DA2 is getting squished by some fans and pro critics. It'll make BioWare focus on ME3 to make it a full and enjoyable game instead of half assing it.

I'm afraid not. Something tells me the ME3 development is clearing the last curve, so we'll have to deal with the consequences of ME2's getting those 150 GOTYs. It'll be even more shiny, even more retard-proof, and packing even less sense. And if something goes wrong with the "critical acclaim" this time, EA can simply ditch the franchise.

I'm afraid you possess a dangerously pessimistic outlook toward life, Zulu.

[Kandid001]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

I'm afraid not. Something tells me the ME3 development is clearing the last curve, so we'll have to deal with the consequences of ME2's getting those 150 GOTYs. It'll be even more shiny, even more retard-proof, and packing even less sense. And if something goes wrong with the "critical acclaim" this time, EA can simply ditch the franchise.

I wouldn't call ME2 "retard proof", it's too harsh for people who loved it more than ME1, but despite being a decent game there were many things it did wrong.

And if EA axes the Mass Effect franchise or even BioWare, so be it, BW will get free from EA's oppression and return to its former glorious self.

[88mphSlayer]

the Dragon Age team had spent part of that 5 year dev cycle on the first game prepping to make sequels, i think the shoddy console ports and Bioware's flagship titles needing to be shipped in 2011 ate into the budget/schedule for DA2 a lot, you can't tell me that Bioware's finest abilities are present in DA2 copy/paste environments or almost cel-shaded graphics when compared to Mass Effect 2