121 réponses à ce sujet

[mopotter]

Nibblesthebunny wrote...

Walina wrote...

Well, I don't needto end the game to be frustrated because : my mage can't finish with Alistair.

1) She can't become his queen because she is not noble.
2) Alistair has to cheat her if he want to survive.

So, I am going to throw her to the archedemon and refuse Alistair romance.

Don't worry, just look at his face when the deed is done and you'll know how he feels about it. It's a very emotional scene, convincing him, as well. ~_~

This is the thing.  It's just wrong.  As far as I'm concerned BioWare made it's first major mistake with the Alistair romance ending and I've played all of their games since Baldurs Gate with many replays over the years.

How can you reasonable force a love interest to have sex with someone he hates since she 1) belittles him every time she talks to him, 2) she is someone he considers an abomination.  I would never ask someone I love to do this and I'd actually resent being asked to have sex with someone I hated (right wing talk show host comes to mind).   I'd die myself first which ruins the whole romance thing. I never liked Romeo and Juliet.  

Sure this could have been one option.  But if Alistair is in love with you, you should be able to bring Loghain into the wardens and Alistair should agree.  He's going to be King he can't risk himself and he should agree that Loghain can help protect his future wife.  If his feelings are not high then he can leave.

My non romance elf was able to git him to Marry Anora,  bring Loghain in and stay friends afterwards, even having him say that it was a kind of justice.  I'm trying one more time to do the romance with a noble, make him king and see if i can bring Loghain in.  If I can't, I'm going to be writing up a thesis paper and putting it on my blog page. 

It's a tribute the BioWare writers that they made a character that brings so much feeling into interacting with him.

[errant_knight]

mopotter wrote...

Nibblesthebunny wrote...

Walina wrote...

Well, I don't needto end the game to be frustrated because : my mage can't finish with Alistair.

1) She can't become his queen because she is not noble.
2) Alistair has to cheat her if he want to survive.

So, I am going to throw her to the archedemon and refuse Alistair romance.

Don't worry, just look at his face when the deed is done and you'll know how he feels about it. It's a very emotional scene, convincing him, as well. ~_~

This is the thing.  It's just wrong.  As far as I'm concerned BioWare made it's first major mistake with the Alistair romance ending and I've played all of their games since Baldurs Gate with many replays over the years.

How can you reasonable force a love interest to have sex with someone he hates since she 1) belittles him every time she talks to him, 2) she is someone he considers an abomination.  I would never ask someone I love to do this and I'd actually resent being asked to have sex with someone I hated (right wing talk show host comes to mind).   I'd die myself first which ruins the whole romance thing. I never liked Romeo and Juliet.  

Sure this could have been one option.  But if Alistair is in love with you, you should be able to bring Loghain into the wardens and Alistair should agree.  He's going to be King he can't risk himself and he should agree that Loghain can help protect his future wife.  If his feelings are not high then he can leave.

My non romance elf was able to git him to Marry Anora,  bring Loghain in and stay friends afterwards, even having him say that it was a kind of justice.  I'm trying one more time to do the romance with a noble, make him king and see if i can bring Loghain in.  If I can't, I'm going to be writing up a thesis paper and putting it on my blog page. 

It's a tribute the BioWare writers that they made a character that brings so much feeling into interacting with him.

Would you really rather see yourself or your lover dead rather than have him spend one night with another woman? The only part of that I found difficult was the child. And, I suspect Morrigan is right. He's not going to hate it as much as he thinks he will, or there would be no child.

[RangerSG]

I'm sorry. But Alistair's reactions at the Landsmeet are entirely consistent with his character. You can say they "blew it" all you want, but that doesn't make it so. If anything, it would be a cheat to make Alistair do something against his character, Loghain's entry has been discussed at length many times elsewhere. But simply put, bringing him in stomps all over Alistair's memory of the only "family" he has ever known. And right or wrong, it's intensely offensive to him.



Why do many female players think it any less potentially painful to a male player to cheat on Leliana, for instance, to carry out the Dark Promise with Morrigan? My mage was torn about making that choice. He was terrified about discussing it with Lel. In the end, he did it because frankly, he was more scared of dying. But that doesn't mean he wasn't heartbroken about the infidelity.



It's a difficult choice. And it should be. And the fact is it engenders powerful responses from many players. I would think, if anything, that means it is well done, like it or not.

[mopotter]

errant_knight wrote...

mopotter wrote...

Nibblesthebunny wrote...

Walina wrote...

Well, I don't needto end the game to be frustrated because : my mage can't finish with Alistair.

1) She can't become his queen because she is not noble.
2) Alistair has to cheat her if he want to survive.

So, I am going to throw her to the archedemon and refuse Alistair romance.

Don't worry, just look at his face when the deed is done and you'll know how he feels about it. It's a very emotional scene, convincing him, as well. ~_~

This is the thing.  It's just wrong.  As far as I'm concerned BioWare made it's first major mistake with the Alistair romance ending and I've played all of their games since Baldurs Gate with many replays over the years.

How can you reasonable force a love interest to have sex with someone he hates since she 1) belittles him every time she talks to him, 2) she is someone he considers an abomination.  I would never ask someone I love to do this and I'd actually resent being asked to have sex with someone I hated (right wing talk show host comes to mind).   I'd die myself first which ruins the whole romance thing. I never liked Romeo and Juliet.  

Sure this could have been one option.  But if Alistair is in love with you, you should be able to bring Loghain into the wardens and Alistair should agree.  He's going to be King he can't risk himself and he should agree that Loghain can help protect his future wife.  If his feelings are not high then he can leave.

My non romance elf was able to git him to Marry Anora,  bring Loghain in and stay friends afterwards, even having him say that it was a kind of justice.  I'm trying one more time to do the romance with a noble, make him king and see if i can bring Loghain in.  If I can't, I'm going to be writing up a thesis paper and putting it on my blog page. 

It's a tribute the BioWare writers that they made a character that brings so much feeling into interacting with him.

Would you really rather see yourself or your lover dead rather than have him spend one night with another woman? The only part of that I found difficult was the child. And, I suspect Morrigan is right. He's not going to hate it as much as he thinks he will, or there would be no child.

It's not the other women.  It's forcing him with guilt to have sex with someone he, to put it mildly, dislikes.  It's the other women who probably told him how incompetent he is while she's screwing him.   I'm not getting into the whole it's a guy so it dosen't matter.  He'll enjoy it because he's a guy thing.  That to me is a cheap out.     

I can only say that if it were turned around, and my female character were asked by the npc who said he loved her but have sex with someone she hated, or just dislike, I might do it to keep him alive, but the relationship would be over.  And I'm not saying it shouldn't have been an option.  But I am saying and will continue to say till my deathbed that this should not have been the only option.  If a female friend can get him to accept Loghain than a female romance partner should have been able to get him to accept Loghain. 

[mopotter]

RangerSG wrote...

I'm sorry. But Alistair's reactions at the Landsmeet are entirely consistent with his character. You can say they "blew it" all you want, but that doesn't make it so. If anything, it would be a cheat to make Alistair do something against his character, Loghain's entry has been discussed at length many times elsewhere. But simply put, bringing him in stomps all over Alistair's memory of the only "family" he has ever known. And right or wrong, it's intensely offensive to him.

Except my female elf who was romancing Zev and was Alistair's friend made him King, he marreid Anora and Loghain was made a warden and died.  Alistair said it was ok and we were still friends.  According to the little blip at the end they even had a reasonably good marriage.  Yet, the Lady he said he loved can't do this?  Why not.  There is no logical reason.

Why do many female players think it any less potentially painful to a male player to cheat on Leliana, for instance, to carry out the Dark Promise with Morrigan? My mage was torn about making that choice. He was terrified about discussing it with Lel. In the end, he did it because frankly, he was more scared of dying. But that doesn't mean he wasn't heartbroken about the infidelity.

I agree.  it shouldn't be any easier to do this if your playing a guy.  My husband said he couldn't stand Morrigan she was rude and obnoxious.  He brought in Loghain and Alistair left. 

It's a difficult choice. And it should be. And the fact is it engenders powerful responses from many players. I would think, if anything, that means it is well done, like it or not.

I also agree with this.  I've always felt that the writers did a great job with the characters to make everyone this interested.  But they have always done a great job with character development and story.  It's why I keep buying their games. 

[RangerSG]

mopotter,



Actually, by the lore, there's a perfectly logical reason why a female elf or mage cannot marry the PC as King. My female mage PC didn't like it. But she knew she'd never marry him. And she knew it as soon as Arl Eamon said Ali was going to be a king. Mages can't rule. Elves would never be allowed to rule. That may be liked or not liked by the player. But again, it's entirely logical within the world's setting.

[errant_knight]

mopotter wrote...

It's not the other women.  It's forcing him with guilt to have sex with someone he, to put it mildly, dislikes.  It's the other women who probably told him how incompetent he is while she's screwing him.   I'm not getting into the whole it's a guy so it dosen't matter.  He'll enjoy it because he's a guy thing.  That to me is a cheap out.     

I can only say that if it were turned around, and my female character were asked by the npc who said he loved her but have sex with someone she hated, or just dislike, I might do it to keep him alive, but the relationship would be over.  And I'm not saying it shouldn't have been an option.  But I am saying and will continue to say till my deathbed that this should not have been the only option.  If a female friend can get him to accept Loghain than a female romance partner should have been able to get him to accept Loghain. 

That's why I never coerce him, lies to him about what it's about, or blackmail him with 'you'd do it if you loved me.' It has to be his decision. What you're asking for is an easy out. Alistair throws aside his firmest conviction, The bad guy dies sparing a sacrifice of any kind from the PC or Alistair. And as to a friend getting Alistair to accept Loghain, they can't. They can only get him not to leave and the relationship is changed forever. Even that is under very limited circumstances. Alistair always sees it as a betrayal. The betrayal is just more unbearable when it's from the only woman he's ever loved.

RangerSG wrote...

I'm sorry. But Alistair's reactions at the Landsmeet are entirely consistent with his character. You can say they "blew it" all you want, but that doesn't make it so. If anything, it would be a cheat to make Alistair do something against his character, Loghain's entry has been discussed at length many times elsewhere. But simply put, bringing him in stomps all over Alistair's memory of the only "family" he has ever known. And right or wrong, it's intensely offensive to him.

Why do many female players think it any less potentially painful to a male player to cheat on Leliana, for instance, to carry out the Dark Promise with Morrigan? My mage was torn about making that choice. He was terrified about discussing it with Lel. In the end, he did it because frankly, he was more scared of dying. But that doesn't mean he wasn't heartbroken about the infidelity.

It's a difficult choice. And it should be. And the fact is it engenders powerful responses from many players. I would think, if anything, that means it is well done, like it or not.

Yes, exactly. Much as some don't like Alistair's lack of acceptance, or the level of outrage and betrayal he feels, It's absolutely in character.

Modifié par errant_knight, 07 février 2010 - 11:11 .

[Sarielle]

RangerSG wrote...

mopotter,

Actually, by the lore, there's a perfectly logical reason why a female elf or mage cannot marry the PC as King. My female mage PC didn't like it. But she knew she'd never marry him. And she knew it as soon as Arl Eamon said Ali was going to be a king. Mages can't rule. Elves would never be allowed to rule. That may be liked or not liked by the player. But again, it's entirely logical within the world's setting.

She's not asking for the mage or elf to marry Alistair. She's irritated because as a friend to Alistair she can spare Loghaine and still be friends with Alistair afterward, while the person he supposedly is in love with can't spare Loghaine w/out having him leave.

...I think. lol!


That said, absolutely loved my ending in a gut-wrenching way. I didn't feel cheated by the cards for the epilogue...reasonably, it was all they could do and still include details about the myriad of choices you could make. Way too much cutscene work otherwise, or they just wouldn't mention a lot of cool details (like what happened to Connor depending on your choices, etc.).

Modifié par Sarielle, 07 février 2010 - 11:18 .

[errant_knight]

Sarielle wrote...

She's not asking for the mage or elf to marry Alistair. She's irritated because as a friend to Alistair she can spare Loghaine and still be friends with Alistair afterward, while the person he supposedly is in love with can't spare Loghaine w/out having him leave.

...I think. lol!

That said, absolutely loved my ending in a gut-wrenching way. I didn't feel cheated by the cards for the epilogue...reasonably, it was all they could do and still include details about the myriad of choices you could make. Way too much cutscene work otherwise, or they just wouldn't mention a lot of cool details (like what happened to Connor depending on your choices, etc.).

I really wouldn't call the relationship Alistair has with the warden who spares Loghain a friendship. More like Alistair is willing to hold onto the vestiges of friendship because they were once so close. And that's in a best case scenario.

[TheBlackBaron]

Actually, I rather liked the ending on the whole. Perhaps I'm a masochist when it comes to my video games, but I liked how even the happier endings always carried a darker side, and how not everything was magically fixed in the year you went around traveling. Sure, depending on your choices go you could have done some immediate good and laid the groundwork for further improvements, but the reality is that Ferelden is going to be a mess for quite some time, and no amount of altruism or wishful thinking can change that. And yes, that includes the ending to the Morrigan romance.



It's just got some emotional punch that a unicorns crapping rainbows ending (like Paragon Shep Saves The Council was in ME) could never really achieve. There just needs to be something that fixes the problem with broken text-boxes, along with a handful of other issues (only getting the Ring ending with Morrigan if you talk to her at the Gates and thus get knocked into the friend zone comes to mind).

[Sarielle]

errant_knight wrote...

Sarielle wrote...

She's not asking for the mage or elf to marry Alistair. She's irritated because as a friend to Alistair she can spare Loghaine and still be friends with Alistair afterward, while the person he supposedly is in love with can't spare Loghaine w/out having him leave.

...I think. lol!

That said, absolutely loved my ending in a gut-wrenching way. I didn't feel cheated by the cards for the epilogue...reasonably, it was all they could do and still include details about the myriad of choices you could make. Way too much cutscene work otherwise, or they just wouldn't mention a lot of cool details (like what happened to Connor depending on your choices, etc.).

I really wouldn't call the relationship Alistair has with the warden who spares Loghain a friendship. More like Alistair is willing to hold onto the vestiges of friendship because they were once so close. And that's in a best case scenario.

I'm not gonna argue, because Chloe, who's set up to do that hasn't quite gotten there yet so I haven't experienced it firsthand. And she's hardly friends with Alistair anyhow. In fact, she probably won't bother wasting her boon to spare him, because, well, she's supremely selfish like that. :B


EDIT: @ TheBlackBaron You might want to check out some of the mods listed on this page: http://www.dragonage...file.php?id=336

They fix some of the endgame dialogue/epilogue issues apparently. I didn't run into issues in my playthroughs, and haven't ended another one yet to test it. But I've got 'em installed

Modifié par Sarielle, 07 février 2010 - 11:33 .

[7th_Phoenix]

I think the ending itself isn't just frustrating but difficult to bear with concerning the decisions you've already had and will make but I'm not entirely disappointed by it. It's tough for everyone because everyone plays differently.

If you didn't romance Morrigan and romanced someone else... for her ritual, you have to consider will I allow myself/him (Alistair) to impregnate her. Or even if you did romance Morrigan, you can still perform the ritual but never get to see her again despite that it's the male Warden's child. Not performing the ritual, we sacrifice ourselves thus making our romances live with the loss of their love. Also the fact that only human nobles can be king/queen does put out whether we get to stay with our romantic interest. These are all difficult decisions we make and we live with the consequences.

All in all, I'm fine with the tough choices we have to make in the game. It makes the gameplay all the more interesting, touching, and heartbreaking for any player... and maybe a little entertaining. These make for good stories and a unique experience for players despite the heartache and pain.

Modifié par 7th_Phoenix, 07 février 2010 - 11:41 .

[Sarielle]

7th_Phoenix wrote...

 Also the fact that only human nobles can be king/queen does put out whether we get to stay with our romantic interest. These are all difficult decisions we make and we live with the consequences.

You can stay with Alistair and not be a fem noble. And realistically speaking, you'd HAVE to be a human noble to be queen for the Landsmeet to accept you -- biases and prejudices and all.

But yes, you can keep him. You just have to be a mistress.

[Barbarossa2010]

To the OP,

Listen, I romanced Morrigan and felt at the Dark Ritual like I had been stabbed in the face with one of Bodahn's cheese knives. I didn't expect a white picket fence ending as many love to discount those who are unhappy with their endings, but I also didn't expect the writers to strip my Warden of his in-character persona and magically turn him into a ba!!less chump either.

After numerous posts venting my anger after a 60 + hour investment, and even being charitably taken to task by David Gaider, I finally realized there was a lesson to learn here for gamers prone to be hopeless romantics or have an expectation of slaying the dragon and getting the girl/guy; and I will pass it on to you:

NEVER...I repeat...NEVER romance a plot dependent NPC!

I get that the OP is not happy with her ending and I empathize. Unfortunately, it is the way it's going to be in this thing called Dark Fantasy (read: license to kill), and no amount of carping will change it...take it from a first class carper.

Having said that, there is a noble, dignified and fulfilling way out. Jettison the romances (and yes I hated doing it, but they just aren't worth it) and do the sacrifice. I finally cowboy'd up and finished it three nights ago. It was the ending I was looking for within the framework stipulated by the writers. It was remarkable, and unexpectedly offerred the fulfilling and (yes) romantic end I was looking for.

I took Leliana, Zevran, and Wynne into face the Archdemon, and slayed it quicker than any of my Warden's ever had; no looking over your shoulder at the swamp witch, no wondering, no doubts about making the Blight worse, or unleashing a potential terror on Thedas, having been complicit with Morrigan in an ambiguous "ritual"; just business...and business was good that night!  Upon my Warden dealing the killing blow, the look on Wynne's and Zevran's faces showed an immediate but shattering understanding of what was happening as the event unfolding before them.

My PC went out something greater than a paragon; would become as famous as Garahel; was interred at Weishaupt (with Garahel and the three other Archdemon slaying Wardens); had a huge statue erected of my Warden over that SOB Arl Howe's former lands (satisfying to say the least since my Warden was a HNM); Sten, who called my PC "Kadan," bowed once before my Warden's tomb and left for his lands, and when asked if there were any honorable men abroad, responded: "only one"; hardcase Oghren married Filsa and when their first born child came along, he wept and named him after my Warden. My Warden's funeral and eulogy were memorable, even having been delivered by Anora. It was so good even she couldn't get it wrong. No Castle Hall and crowd for this ending, only a marble slab for my Warden with his loyal crew standing around him.

I hardened Alistair and lost him (sadly) to recruit Loghain. I told Loghain at the gates of Denerim that he "must live." After my Warden's death, Loghain would redeem himself and be responsible to rebuild and recruit Ferelden's Grey Wardens (a fitting penance) and end his days honorably in the Deep Roads. On the plus side with Alistair, having hardened him, he was a force to be reckoned with as king partnered with Anora, and would play no second fiddle.

And for the romance part, I romanced Leliana out of obligation at first, but something more later. At the gates of Denerim, my Warden told her she did not have to come to the Archdemon with him. But she was firm that there was no other place she would rather be than at the side of her Love, to whatever end they were about to meet. We, of course, "forged our own legend" at the top of Fort Drakon and the look on her face at my Warden's funeral was worth the entire game. Leliana would mourn her love and be reunited with him (in death) sooner than anyone expected, smiling but with tears in her eyes; but not before composing and performing an epic ballad in his memory that would come to be known throughout all of Thedas.

I couldn't have asked for more, but I had to give something to get the epic ending I personally was looking for. After three attempts, I felt like I finally finished the game. I highly recommend the sacrificial ending for anyone who has yet to do it. It was infinitely better than playing gutless chump to the swamp witch.

Modifié par Barbarossa2010, 08 février 2010 - 02:28 .

[TheBlackBaron]

See, I take perverse pride in flipping destiny, fate, and protocol the bird and taking the third option. Were there truly no other way to destroy the Archdemon, I would gladly decapitate it while the dramatic music plays to ensure peace and goodwill and a King for Ferelden and whatnot and roll with the heroic sacrifice. As it is, that aforementioned third option revealed itself and I took it without doubt. I'm like John Locke on Lost - don't ever tell me what I can't do, because I will find a way.

I get to live as a hero, and to hell with the other Wardens - I've dealt with the whispers about the deaths of the Council, I can deal with them just as well. Moreover, Alistair is going to need me on hand; hardened though he may be, I still don't trust Anora or Eamon. And perhaps I'm simply being idealistic/naive, but I don't believe Morrigan truly intends to use the kid for evil, simple because she isn't. Chaotic Neutral, very much so, but not evil. So I really have no problem with doing the ritual.

Is it still a kick in the balls that she leaves? Yeah, but like I said, that's something I can take in stride, I might wind up finding her anyway, and I can busy myself in the meantime rebuilding the Wardens. Because really, I can't trust anybody else to do so.

Modifié par TheBlackBaron, 08 février 2010 - 03:01 .

[FierachEredasSoulchiou]

I liked my particular ending. It was very, bittersweet. Although the endings are bugged for some people, I feel that it is a very good reflection of how even the best-laid plans and intentions can fall apart, and sometimes, what you get is not what you expected.

[Maeves_Child]

I don't know if it's been mentioned, I skimmed the thread at best . . but the ending to Dragon Age? It's life. You can do good things and bad things, and sh*t happens. Sometimes, things you can't control.



It's not a happy ending, no matter what route you take. But I hate to break it to you, but life doesn't have happy endings.



Ever.



So that's why I love it. And why I keep replaying, and trying new things. Because it's real.

[ejoslin]

Sarielle wrote...

7th_Phoenix wrote...

 Also the fact that only human nobles can be king/queen does put out whether we get to stay with our romantic interest. These are all difficult decisions we make and we live with the consequences.

You can stay with Alistair and not be a fem noble. And realistically speaking, you'd HAVE to be a human noble to be queen for the Landsmeet to accept you -- biases and prejudices and all.

But yes, you can keep him. You just have to be a mistress.

Does it make it easier to know that the marriage has absolutely nothing to do with love?  At all?  At least if he stays with the Warden you know it's out of love, even if it is as his mistress.  He's putting aside a lot of his beliefs in that scenario.

Modifié par ejoslin, 08 février 2010 - 03:35 .

[ashez2ashes]

Sarielle wrote...

You can stay with Alistair and not be a fem noble. And realistically speaking, you'd HAVE to be a human noble to be queen for the Landsmeet to accept you -- biases and prejudices and all.

But yes, you can keep him. You just have to be a mistress.

If you don't have to be his mistress if you don't make him king.

[Whitering]

There are mods that will alter the endings to make more sense, check the Dragon Age Nexus. In Mass Effect there was no summary of your choices, no "what happened to your companions", so it is not comparable.



Jade Empire and Dragon Age have gone the route set, perhaps, by Fallout, which was pretty famous for its many branched endings. Take the good with the bad in any system. Check out the mods though, it should correct one or two of your issues.

[IronWolf1987]

I always take the ritual and never feel bad about it. Going through with the ritual makes sure the arch demon dies, because it allows anyone of my soldiers to kill the demon permanently. Resting Ferelden's fate on the hope that only 3 wardens are not only going to survive the battle, make their way to the arch demon, and then kill it is not a risk my strategically minded Grey Warden is going to take. Morrigan and her plans are a threat, but it's a threat my grey warden has time to deal with, the arch demon however, has to die at Denerim.

[mopotter]

[quote]errant_knight wrote...

[quote]Sarielle wrote...

She's not asking for the mage or elf to marry Alistair. She's irritated because as a friend to Alistair she can spare Loghaine and still be friends with Alistair afterward, while the person he supposedly is in love with can't spare Loghaine w/out having him leave.

...I think. lol! [/quote]

Yes,  thanks.  This is exactly my problem with the noble ending.  My mage was going back to the circle, my elf romanced Zan and had Alistair as a friend.

[quote]That said, absolutely loved my ending in a gut-wrenching way. I didn't feel cheated by the cards for the epilogue...reasonably, it was all they could do and still include details about the myriad of choices you could make. Way too much cutscene work otherwise, or they just wouldn't mention a lot of cool details (like what happened to Connor depending on your choices, etc.).[/quote]  

I liked the cards too.  Alistair married Anora and she was surprised at his willingness to learn and attend meetings, and the people felt they had a pair of rulers who cared about them.  Nice.

[quote]
I really wouldn't call the relationship Alistair has with the warden who spares Loghain a friendship. More like Alistair is willing to hold onto the vestiges of friendship because they were once so close. And that's in a best case scenario.[/quote]


Well, when my female elf specifically asked him after Loghain died, he said we were still friends, he decided after calming down  that having Loghain die to save everyone was a fitting death.  I take him at his word.   But it's a lost cause and I've moved on.  Sort of. Still resentful, still irritated.    

On a side note I just realized that Timon Templeman (Loghain) is the voice for Admiral Han Gerrel in  ME2.

edit.  got my quotes wrong. 

Modifié par mopotter, 08 février 2010 - 07:27 .