1560 réponses à ce sujet

[Kayden SiNafey]

MaxPayne37 wrote...

BTCentral wrote...

MaxPayne37 wrote...

Kudos to BTCentral, at least he understands and makes some sense.

Thanks - but you're fighting a loosing battle there, he'll just refuse to listen and state it's "not a fact".
He just does not understand the fact that DX10 hardware can not process DX11 only API features

I know for a fact that it works just fine on DX10 cards on High Mode with the 267.59 drivers, as before I got my shiny new MSI GTX 460 Hawk a few days ago, I had a XFX GTX 260 Black Edition - which was a DX10 only card.

Until nVidia/ATI release new drivers I have no doubt that the 267.59 drivers are as good for performance as we are going to get.

QFT. Maybe I'd let it go, but I don't want him giving others false information. At least you had some DX10 hardware to test it on before stating your DX11 experience as "fact". I agree, and at least I have some other people that agree with me too now.

Baramon wrote...

From what I know about video cards and DX (since about version 3 or so, when I {briefly} thought about learning the API for something I wanted to do) there is just NO WAY a DX card of ANY version can "adjust upwards" to make use of a higher number's functions and calls and whatevers...they're just not designed that way. You can't make a DX9 or DX10 card access anything in the respective higher-number version (DX10 or DX11) by any trick, magic, hack, workaround, or whatever. Granted, it's been awhile since I've done anything remotely close to "advanced power user"-type stuff with any of the DX versions, but I doubt anyone's broken through that limitation.

Shutting up now on the subject, because I know I'm not qualified to offer anything similar to reliable information on the subject...(just my inflation-adjusted $0.27c worth).

Exactly, and the only way to do so would be through emulation, and that gets messy even if you could, and you can't use conventional methods to do so. Like 3D Analyzer a long time ago.

Ok I have showen you 2 exactly WHY DX10 should NOT run with the DX11 renderer, by your own information and mine. I am not giving miss leading information in way you 2 are! Please get over your dillusions of grandeur and narcissism to want to be right and see that you are wrong!

I've said you might be right if Bioware ONLY intended High to use DX10 features but YOU BOTH can not verify that is doesn't keep using DX11 in the background, where I have proven it still uses a DX11 renderer and there is NO way in game to turn off other DX11 features like Tessellation. The ONLY way this can be verified is too turn on Dev console and look at the wire frame to get visual proof which you can not do if you have textures! Another thing to do is find a prog that will tell what is being sent to the video for instructions or in real time but I haven't found. The last thing you can do is get your hands on the source and see what they setup in there but that ain't gonna happen. I have said Bioware needs to fix this if this was their intent or disable if it wasn't.

There is nothing in my research to prove you right in any shread of piece of evidence you have provided and to claim on one source Bioware with that tech blog is not correct I showed you 3 different other articles disproving the claims. I feel like I am litterally trying to tell you something and you both are either keeping your hands over your ears until you want to talk or you are just that nieve because you can't accept the proof right in front of you, what's next saying your unleaded car can run on biodiesel? Don't get me wrong you have a good theory but with no FACTS other then "hey it works in high with DX10 cards the DX11 api will work then" is completly wrong. Please put on your thining caps and critically think about this the info you are giving out is wrong and should not continue until you have further facts to back up your claims.

The only reason I said anything about this cause you are saying I am blatently wrong and your patting each other your backs and claiming victory when you are wrong. I have show this to 2 other ppl who I will gurantee have more computer exp then you 2 combined. The first guy literally builds machines professionally has been for 9 years and we have been gaming together since Freespace 2, the 2nd worked with me 15 years ago at our own comp shop and has been a gamer for just as long as I have (yes he is my twin bro) BUT just because these guys are my friends or family does not mean they will hesitate to tell me I am wrong and they have before and I have listened and changed my opinion. Now both of these guys have read what was said between the 3 of us and they both agree until you come up with better facts to your theory DX10 is only used with High while still enabling the DX11 API it is not support phsycially on the card and if does work it will cause a performance drop. The first guy also suggested this could be a programming problem with the game as well, where they put in support for a range of video cards for it when they should not have, because the game controls what video cards can use certain DX API not DX it's self it just does what it's told (I two brought this up but it was with SC3). Unfortunatly they do not like RPG games so they have not bought DA2 to que in here and if they just msg your just going to say I made it, so in the interest of full disclosure I have not hid a thing about who they are which is more honest most ppl would be. I thought about bringing this to my MIT friend and a few others but again they can't chime in here so unless you accept this I'm not going to waist my breath, because your prolly going to say I'm lieing and etc and if you do that's fine stay in ignorance. You guys don't understand I don't try to advocate somthing unless I know I am 100% right, like I know for 100% majority fact that we are sitting to write this stuff on these forums.

Now I will not let you two keep spreading your baseless thoery at the expense of lack of exp on your part and for other gamers looking for help. I am sorry you two can't wake up and smell the coffee but we need serious critical thinking ppl and we need serious critical problem solving from these ppl and I do not count you two among them with this topic and until you want to walk out of your shadow of ignorance I will not consider you two such. Hope this helps you two change your pov but I'm doubting it and I don't expect you to because you have proven it over and over again, how about you prove me wrong in something? Accept you don't know for sure what the game uses on High and it probably is still DX11 until you have facts to back it up your theory of DX10, how about doing that? I know miricals can happen and I wont leave this one out of the realm of possibility but I'm not holding out much hope for you two.

EDIT: I have also proven in these forums I will go back and say I am sorry for a mistake or that I didn't put all the info together about a statement and I will do the same here if you two can prove it but until then I will not, so prove me wrong you two get to work if you two believe in this theory so much.

Modifié par Kayden SiNafey, 20 mars 2011 - 05:32 .

[TallBearNC]

Kayden SiNafey wrote...

MaxPayne37 wrote...

BTCentral wrote...

MaxPayne37 wrote...

Kudos to BTCentral, at least he understands and makes some sense.

Thanks - but you're fighting a loosing battle there, he'll just refuse to listen and state it's "not a fact".
He just does not understand the fact that DX10 hardware can not process DX11 only API features

I know for a fact that it works just fine on DX10 cards on High Mode with the 267.59 drivers, as before I got my shiny new MSI GTX 460 Hawk a few days ago, I had a XFX GTX 260 Black Edition - which was a DX10 only card.

Until nVidia/ATI release new drivers I have no doubt that the 267.59 drivers are as good for performance as we are going to get.

QFT. Maybe I'd let it go, but I don't want him giving others false information. At least you had some DX10 hardware to test it on before stating your DX11 experience as "fact". I agree, and at least I have some other people that agree with me too now.

Baramon wrote...

From what I know about video cards and DX (since about version 3 or so, when I {briefly} thought about learning the API for something I wanted to do) there is just NO WAY a DX card of ANY version can "adjust upwards" to make use of a higher number's functions and calls and whatevers...they're just not designed that way. You can't make a DX9 or DX10 card access anything in the respective higher-number version (DX10 or DX11) by any trick, magic, hack, workaround, or whatever. Granted, it's been awhile since I've done anything remotely close to "advanced power user"-type stuff with any of the DX versions, but I doubt anyone's broken through that limitation.

Shutting up now on the subject, because I know I'm not qualified to offer anything similar to reliable information on the subject...(just my inflation-adjusted $0.27c worth).

Exactly, and the only way to do so would be through emulation, and that gets messy even if you could, and you can't use conventional methods to do so. Like 3D Analyzer a long time ago.

Ok I have showen you 2 exactly WHY DX10 should NOT run with the DX11 renderer, by your own information and mine. I am not giving miss leading information in way you 2 are! Please get over your dillusions of grandeur and narcissism to want to be right and see that you are wrong!

I've said you might be right if Bioware ONLY intended High to use DX10 features but YOU BOTH can not verify that is doesn't keep using DX11 in the background, where I have proven it still uses a DX11 renderer and there is NO way in game to turn off other DX11 features like Tessellation. The ONLY way this can be verified is too turn on Dev console and look at the wire frame to get visual proof which you can not do if you have textures! Another thing to do is find a prog that will tell what is being sent to the video for instructions or in real time but I haven't found. The last thing you can do is get your hands on the source and see what they setup in there but that ain't gonna happen. I have said Bioware needs to fix this if this was their intent or disable if it wasn't.

There is nothing in my research to prove you right in any shread of piece of evidence you have provided and to claim on one source Bioware with that tech blog is not correct I showed you 3 different other articles disproving the claims. I feel like I am litterally trying to tell you something and you both are either keeping your hands over your ears until you want to talk or you are just that nieve because you can't accept the proof right in front of you, what's next saying your unleaded car can run on biodiesel? Don't get me wrong you have a good theory but with no FACTS other then "hey it works in high with DX10 cards the DX11 api will work then" is completly wrong. Please put on your thining caps and critically think about this the info you are giving out is wrong and should not continue until you have further facts to back up your claims.

The only reason I said anything about this cause you are saying I am blatently wrong and your patting each other your backs and claiming victory when you are wrong. I have show this to 2 other ppl who I will gurantee have more computer exp then you 2 combined. The first guy literally builds machines professionally has been for 9 years and we have been gaming together since Freespace 2, the 2nd worked with me 15 years ago at our own comp shop and has been a gamer for just as long as I have (yes he is my twin bro) BUT just because these guys are my friends or family does not mean they will hesitate to tell me I am wrong and they have before and I have listened and changed my opinion. Now both of these guys have read what was said between the 3 of us and they both agree until you come up with better facts to your theory DX10 is only used with High while still enabling the DX11 API it is not support phsycially on the card and if does work it will cause a performance drop. Unfortunatly they do not like RPG games so they have not bought DA2 to que in here and if they just msg your just going to say I made it, so in the interest of full disclosure I have not hid a thing about who they are which is more honest most ppl would be. I thought about bringing this to my MIT friend and a few others but again they can't chime in here so unless you accept this I'm not going to waist my breath, because your prolly going to say I'm lieing and etc and if you do that's fine stay in ignorance. You guys don't understand I don't try to advocate somthing unless I know I am 100% right, like I know for 100% majority fact that we are sitting to write this stuff on these forums.

Now I will not let you two keep spreading your baseless thoery at the expense of lack of exp on your part and for other gamers looking for help. I am sorry you two can't wake up and smell the coffee but we need serious critical thinking ppl and we need serious critical problem solving from these ppl and I do not count you two among them with this topic and until you want to walk out of your shadow of ignorance I will not consider you two such. Hope this helps you two change your pov but I'm doubting it and I don't expect you to because you have proven it over and over again, how about you prove me wrong in something? Accept you don't know for sure what the game uses on High and it probably is still DX11 until you have facts to back it up your theory of DX10, how about doing that? I know miricals can happen and I wont leave this one out of the realm of possibility but I'm not holding out much hope for you two.

EDIT: I have also proven in these forums I will go back and say I am sorry for a mistake or that I didn't put all the info together about a statement and I will do the same here if you two can prove it but until then I will not, so prove me wrong you two get to work if you two believe in this theory so much.

You are very incorrect. I have been a computer engineer, programer and video game programmer for over 20 yrs. I've worked for Apple out of Sacramento, 989 Studios in Foster City, Verant, SOE, and other companies, and I've had many years of DX experience, and I still do. I work with it on a regular basis.

"proven it still uses a DX11 renderer and there is NO way in game to turn off other DX11 features like Tessellation."

Wrong, wrong, and wrong.  DX 11 is MADE to handle dx 10 cards, and will auto turn off any and all DX11 effects that the card is not capable of running. The game also happense to sense this, and will refuse to go into very high. Low-med = DX9 effects using the DX11 renderer, and high = DX10 fx under the dx 11 renderer, and very high = dx 11 effects.

Dx11 is NOT like DX10 where you had to actually have a DX10 card to use the DX10 rendering system. If it were, bioware would list DX 9, 10, and 11 modes.. and they don't, why? DX11 utterly replaces DX11. There should be little to no performance hits with a DX10 card under DX11, DX 11 was engineered that way. Go read it up on wikipedia. They even got it right over there.

Granted, in any case, the DX11 rendering system is still being used, but it was designed to not impact DX10 GPU performance when using DX10 type effects under DX11.


Right off the definition of DX11:


Microsoft unveiled Direct3D 11 at the Gamefest 08 event in Seattle, with the major scheduled features including GPGPU support (DirectCompute), tessellation support,[29][30] and improved multi-threading support to assist video game developers in developing games that better utilize multi-core processors.[31] Direct3D 11 runs on Windows Vista and Windows 7. It will run on future Windows operating systems as well. Parts of the new API such as multi-threaded resource handling can be supported on Direct3D 9/10/10.1-class hardware. Hardware tessellation and Shader Model 5.0 require Direct3D 11 supporting hardware.[32] Microsoft has since released the Direct3D 11 Technical Preview.[33] Direct3D 11 is a strict superset of Direct3D 10.1 — all hardware and API features of version 10.1 are retained, and new features are added only when necessary for exposing new functionality. This helps to keep backwards compatibility with previous versions of DirectX.

However, the Direct3D 10 runtime in Windows Vista cannot run on older hardware drivers due to the significantly updated DDI, which requires a unified feature set and abandons the use of "cap bits".
Direct3D 11 runtime introduces Direct3D 9, 10, and 10.1 "feature levels", compatibility modes which allow use of only the hardware features defined in the specified version of Direct3D. For Direct3D 9 hardware, there are three different feature levels, grouped by common capabilities of "low", "med" and "high-end" video cards; the runtime directly uses Direct3D 9 DDI provided in all WDDM drivers

Modifié par TallBearNC, 20 mars 2011 - 05:45 .

[BTCentral]

Kayden SiNafey wrote...
[snipped]

Kayden, it's fairly obvious that you have no knowledge of the DX11 API - I on the other hand have personally used the DX11 API the past, and have at least a basic understanding of how it works.

Each time you come back with an argument with no factual basis and no experience of how programming using the DX API works and simply state that we are wrong. Sorry, but we are not.

You say things like "DX11 renderer and there is NO way in game to turn off other DX11 features like Tessellation." - I am sorry but you are just plain wrong. Tesselation is a feature that can be enabled in DX11 mode. It is not just automatically on for games using the Direct X 11 engine.

The high mode does not use tesselation, nor is it enabled - Direct X 10 does not even have Tesselation support.
Sure, it can be emulated, but if that was the case then we would have Tesselation in DX10 mode - which we do not.

You want your proof that cards with DX10 can not use DX11 features? Here it is:

Direct3D 11 runtime introduces Direct3D 9, 10, and 10.1 "feature levels", compatibility modes which allow use of only the hardware features defined in the specified version of Direct3D. For Direct3D 9 hardware, there are three different feature levels, grouped by common capabilities of "low", "med" and "high-end" video cards; the runtime directly uses Direct3D 9 DDI provided in all WDDM drivers.

The simple version? Direct X 11 only allows cards to use features supported by the hardware. If a Card is DX11 if can make use of all the features. If it is DX10.1 it can use DX10.1, 10.0 and 9 features. If it is DX 10 it can use DX10 and 9 features. And finally if it is DX9 it could only use DX9 features (in which case they may as well just be using a DX9 renderer).

You can continue saying whatever you like, but at the end of the day you are spreading information that is false - you have been told by three different people you are wrong now, maybe that should tell you something.

You wanted facts? Here they are.

Modifié par BTCentral, 20 mars 2011 - 05:59 .

[TallBearNC]

@BTCental, VERY VERY correct

[Kayden SiNafey]

I've had my fair share of engineers saying they know how something works but in real world it work in ways they never intended and that is probably the case here. I am looking at this from a performance issue and you guys are not. I have been around the block guys and to say I have no knowledge is ludicrous in the least and until we can what is actually going on there is no way to prove any of us right. I don't care what you say about my exp because real world exp is more important, I'm the guy who works on this stuff and I see stuff happen all the time that shouldn't because of it was not designed to do it. This wont be proven by my own view or yours until we get into the game it self and see what the heck is going on and that's what I have been saying because in the real world Tessellation may not be turned off because of bad programing so get over your selves thinking I don't know what I am talking about. I know it shouldn't but what happens is another story and that's what I have advocated. This needs to be found out in game and anything else now is just conjecture, I have one theory that may prove to be a solution for performance issues (such as Tessellation staying on when it shouldn't!) and you have come up with NOTHING to suggest otherwise other then it shouldn't because it isn't designed that way, with no other possible reason to what it could be. Read what I say not what you want you guys. Have fun.

Modifié par Kayden SiNafey, 20 mars 2011 - 06:00 .

[TallBearNC]

(dupe post) - deleted

Modifié par TallBearNC, 20 mars 2011 - 06:07 .

[TallBearNC]

Kayden SiNafey wrote...

I've had my fair share of engineers saying they know how something works but in real world it work in ways they never intended and that is probably the case here. I am looking at this from a performance issue and you guys are not. I have been around the block guys and to say I have no knowledge is ludicrous in the least and until we can what is actually going on there is no way to prove any of us right. I don't care what you say about my exp because real world exp is more important, I'm the guy who works on this stuff and I see stuff happen all the time that shouldn't because of it was not designed to do it. This wont be proven by my own view or yours until we get into the game it self and see what the heck is going on and that's what I have been saying because in the real world Tessellation may not be turned off because of bad programing so get over your selves thinking I don't know what I am talking about. I know it shouldn't but what happens is another story and that's what I have advocated. This needs to be found out in game and anything else now is just conjecture, I have one theory that may prove to be a solution for performance issues (such as Tessellation staying on when it shouldn't!) and you have come up with NOTHING to suggest otherwise other then it shouldn't because it isn't designed that way, with no other possible reason to what it could be. Read what I say not what you want you guys. Have fun.

Frankly I dont care about a "performance issue"  That's not a viable way to factually describe how DX11 and its APIs work and how it is backwards compatable.

The issue with DA2 are bad drivers and sloppy code in the game. End of story. You are CLUELESS on how to program DX related games and unqualified to speak on this subject.

Modifié par TallBearNC, 20 mars 2011 - 06:05 .

[TallBearNC]

Let's see.. screenshots of the game actually disabling and enabling things like tessalation, etc in the DX11 renderer...

http://www.flickr.co...rnc/5543831758/

http://www.flickr.co...rnc/5543831428/

Edit: cropped pictures to show detail levels better


If you'd like, I can even post gaming screenshots showing tessalation going OFF while in high mode.. it's VERY VERY visable.. especially at 2560x1600

Modifié par TallBearNC, 20 mars 2011 - 06:12 .

[BTCentral]

TallBearNC wrote...

Kayden SiNafey wrote...

Tessellation may not be turned off because of bad programing so get over your selves thinking I don't know what I am talking about. I know it shouldn't but what happens is another story and that's what I have advocated. This needs to be found out in game and anything else now is just conjecture, I have one theory that may prove to be a solution for performance issues (such as Tessellation staying on when it shouldn't!)

End of story. You are CLUELESS on how to program DX related games and unqualified to speak on this subject.

As TallBearNC said, the part I just quoted just goes to show exactly how clueless you are when it comes to this.
You are arguing with two people that have real world experience of programming with the DX11 API - you have none.

As we have both pointed out Tessellation simply can not even be enabled on a DX10.1 or lower card, yet you continue to insist it is on - it is not.

You wanted proof, we gave it. We'll have that apology you were on about now - Thanks.

Modifié par BTCentral, 20 mars 2011 - 06:21 .

[TallBearNC]

BTCentral wrote...

TallBearNC wrote...

Kayden SiNafey wrote...

Tessellation
may not be turned off because of bad programing so get over your selves
thinking I don't know what I am talking about. I know it shouldn't but
what happens is another story and that's what I have advocated. This
needs to be found out in game and anything else now is just conjecture, I
have one theory that may prove to be a solution for performance issues
(such as Tessellation staying on when it shouldn't!)

Frankly
I dont care about a "performance issue"  That's not a viable way to
factually describe how DX11 and its APIs work and how it is backwards
compatable.

The issue with DA2 are bad drivers and sloppy code in
the game. End of story. You are CLUELESS on how to program DX related
games and unqualified to speak on this subject.

As TallBearNC said, the part I just quoted just goes to show exactly how clueless you are when it comes to this.

You are arguing with two people that have real world experince of programming with the DX11 API, we have pointed out Tesselation simply can not even be enabled on a DX10.1 or lower card, yet you continue to exist it is on.

You wanted proof, we gave it. We'll have that appology now - thanks.

TallBearNC wrote...

Let's see.. screenshots of the game actually disabling and enabling things like tessalation, etc in the DX11 renderer...

http://www.flickr.co...rnc/5543831758/

http://www.flickr.co...rnc/5543831428/


If you'd like, I can even post gaming screenshots showing tessalation going OFF while in high mode.. it's VERY VERY visable.. especially at 2560x1600

Those are set to private, by the way.

oops fixed

[Sugiik]

i saw lot of debate happened....
but i think the point still about dx11 card(4xx,5xx) can't run this game with very properly rite ?(i got 470 SLI)

so the game just to heavy or the game "crap" .... i think that's the point of this thread and that you're /we're all debating here rite ?

[TallBearNC]

@Sugik, the game needs to be patched for better DX11 performance using DX10 and DX11 cards, AND ATI and Nvidia need to optimize their DX11 drivers.

[BTCentral]

Sugiik wrote...

but i think the point still about dx11 card(4xx,5xx) can't run this game with very properly rite ?(i got 470 SLI)

DX11 cards can run the game pretty well - just not with the current official drivers.
For example my 460 GTX plays the game with 40-60 FPS quite happily with 4x AA 16x AF at a 1920x1080 resolution using the "Very High" mode, High Quality blur and the High Resolution textures.

Take a look here for how to get everything working nicely.

Modifié par BTCentral, 20 mars 2011 - 06:20 .

[Kayden SiNafey]

Well I troubleshooter this means I have think out side of the box and come up with reasons for why something is doing when it shouldn't and this is what I have come up with. You are also only giving me in game screen shots and no other data to back up the claim, so I guess I should believe UFOs are real because there's a pic on the internet? Yeah Neil deGrasse Tyson doesn't believe it and neither will I, you need more then just a pic to prove something. I am saying the game is probably using feature on a DX10 card we can not see because of their specs it does not say DX10 in their requirements for High by any stretch just DX11, so this with other the info I have provided is how I came up with this. I know it is hard for you to fathom but Boeing engineers couldn't figure out why we were getting incorrect fuel flow to cockpit and they said the same thing you did "It wasn't designed to do that so it shouldn't happen" well we found out it was a faulty breaker for analog to digital converter, because the breaker was shorted and that fixed it. I have to think out side the box and that's what I am doing here. I know it shouldn't use DX11 features on a DX10 psychically and by software, but like my Splinter Cell Chaos Theory I have seen modes be enabled for cards that don't support the tech through software and that's what I'm saying is probably the case here. Want me to change my pov come at me with something other then pics and how crap is supposed to work when I have seen other wise in my 20 years of comp trouble shooting exp and 12 years of mechanical trouble shooting.

What does this, yes I know it shouldn't work and it should work one way but I've been saying it may not and were just chasing our tails because you say it shouldn't no matter and what I'm saying I have seen with past exp. The first rule in trouble shooting is learn to accept the unexpected because there is only so much books can tell you. I know more then you think and to insult me to say I don't know jack is again juvenile. Have fun guys.

EDIT: my point about the short is this the game software could be jacked causing this problem. there is nothing to say that it isn't, except oh yeah the bad performance. I am not saying this is not the only reason for it but I am saying it is the most likely from the info given by bioware about req and how the api should work, but it isn't and allowing dx10 card to run dx11.

EDIT 2: Anyways I am done with this you guys have yet to prove to me that your 100% right other then a perfect world scenario where it works 100% the way it should. Well I have a saying "You can't make 100% of the ppl you know a 100% a 100% of the time" and I am obviously at that point with you guys because you want perfection when this is an imperfect world and so is this games programming, evident by the many many issues, not just yours with crappy fps with almost the same hardware as mine but also with others with vastly different rigs. This has helpt support my pov but not yours and if you want a perfect world go read a book, nothing out of the oridinary happens there. (yes I was rude there and maybe you guys will read that correctly because being factual and imperical isn't getting through)

Modifié par Kayden SiNafey, 20 mars 2011 - 06:37 .

[TallBearNC]

BTCentral wrote...

TallBearNC wrote...

Kayden SiNafey wrote...

Tessellation may not be turned off because of bad programing so get over your selves thinking I don't know what I am talking about. I know it shouldn't but what happens is another story and that's what I have advocated. This needs to be found out in game and anything else now is just conjecture, I have one theory that may prove to be a solution for performance issues (such as Tessellation staying on when it shouldn't!)

End of story. You are CLUELESS on how to program DX related games and unqualified to speak on this subject.

As TallBearNC said, the part I just quoted just goes to show exactly how clueless you are when it comes to this.
You are arguing with two people that have real world experience of programming with the DX11 API - you have none.

As we have both pointed out Tessellation simply can not even be enabled on a DX10.1 or lower card, yet you continue to insist it is on - it is not.

You wanted proof, we gave it. We'll have that apology you were on about now - Thanks.

Yep, and  I'll be happy to take the next steps if need be

1) upload screenshots with my DX11 cards showing tessaltion on a very high and off a high
2) throw in my 2 older, 8800s and go into high mode and also show that tessaltion is not on, but the game is using DX 10x fx.
3) or maybe he would like me (us) to fraps some video of the game running in high vs very high to prove a point?

************************************

I DO understand the *Kayden's* argument about performance, but bad performance with DX10 cards under DX11 does NOT = DX 10 cards are not supported, does NOT = DX11 effects are being forced on the DX10 card, does NOT = an understanding of programming, API calls and functionality. He can't use performance to list facts about how DX11 works (or is supposed to work)

3 possible things can be going on that is affecting performance of both DX10 and 11 cards:

1) poor drivers. We ALL should know this as a FACT by now. As upgrading drivers is imporiving things on DX10 and 11 cards

2) Probably the game needs some tweeking in its DX11 engine

3) Unlikely, but there could be bugs in the DX11 system in windows itself (well this is MS, so maybe more than just unlikely LOL)

Modifié par TallBearNC, 20 mars 2011 - 06:34 .

[TallBearNC]

Kayden SiNafey wrote...

Well I troubleshooter this means I have think out side of the box and come up with reasons for why something is doing when it shouldn't and this is what I have come up with. You are also only giving me in game screen shots and no other data to back up the claim, so I guess I should believe UFOs are real because there's a pic on the internet? Yeah Neil deGrasse Tyson doesn't believe it and neither will I, you need more then just a pic to prove something. I am saying the game is probably using feature on a DX10 card we can not see because of their specs it does not say DX10 in their requirements for High by any stretch just DX11, so this with other the info I have provided is how I came up with this. I know it is hard for you to fathom but Boeing engineers couldn't figure out why we were getting incorrect fuel flow to cockpit and they said the same thing you did "It wasn't designed to do that so it shouldn't happen" well we found out it was a faulty breaker for analog to digital converter, because the breaker was shorted and that fixed it. I have to think out side the box and that's what I am doing here. I know it shouldn't use DX11 features on a DX10 psychically and by software, but like my Splinter Cell Chaos Theory I have seen modes be enabled for cards that don't support the tech through software and that's what I'm saying is probably the case here. Want me to change my pov come at me with something other then pics and how crap is supposed to work when I have seen other wise in my 20 years of comp trouble shooting exp and 12 years of mechanical trouble shooting.

What does this, yes I know it shouldn't work and it should work one way but I've been saying it may not and were just chasing our tails because you say it shouldn't no matter and what I'm saying I have seen with past exp. The first rule in trouble shooting is learn to accept the unexpected because there is only so much books can tell you. I know more then you think and to insult me to say I don't know jack is again juvenile. Have fun guys.

EDIT: my point about the short is this the game software could be jacked causing this problem. there is nothing to say that it isn't, except oh yeah the bad performance. I am not saying this is not the only reason for it but I am saying it is the most likely from the info given by bioware about req and how the api should work, but it isn't and allowing dx10 card to run dx11.

see my above post

[BTCentral]

Kayden SiNafey wrote...

Well I troubleshooter this means I have think out side of the box and come up with reasons for why something is doing when it shouldn't and this is what I have come up with. You are also only giving me in game screen shots and no other data to back up the claim.

Believe me, I know what I am talking about when it comes to QA. I was involved with doing a lot of it for Microsoft products in the past.

Just because you think you can troubleshoot doesn't automatically make things that are not possible, possible.

Kayden SiNafey wrote...

I know it shouldn't use DX11 features on a DX10 psychically and by software, but like my Splinter Cell Chaos Theory I have seen modes be enabled for cards that don't support the tech through software and that's what I'm saying is probably the case here. Want me to change my pov come at me with something other then pics and how crap is supposed to work when I have seen other wise in my 20 years of comp trouble shooting exp and 12 years of mechanical trouble shooting.

1) Splinter Cell Chaos Theory was not made by BioWare.
2) Splinter Cell Chaos Theory does not use the same engine as Dragon Age 2.
3) Having the option to choose the wrong pixel shader in software does not mean a card can support a feature not present in the hardware.
4) You really think you can "accidentally" or otherwise enable a hardware feature that does not exist via software? It's simply not possible.

Kayden SiNafey wrote...

EDIT: my point about the short is this the game software could be jacked causing this problem. there is nothing to say that it isn't, except oh yeah the bad performance. I am not saying this is not the only reason for it but I am saying it is the most likely from the info given by bioware about req and how the api should work, but it isn't and allowing dx10 card to run dx11.

Refer to point 4.

Beleive me, if you could enable hardware tesselation for DX10 cards a lot of people would be very happy - it's not possible.

It's not my (or I assume TallBearNC's) intention to try and be rude - we are simply trying to point out to you what you have said is not possible.

Modifié par BTCentral, 20 mars 2011 - 06:43 .

[Kayden SiNafey]

TallBearNC wrote...
see my above post

why you haven't read mine for what it is, thus i have quite trying with your's or any one else who supports the perfect scenario.

[BTCentral]

Kayden SiNafey wrote...

why you haven't read mine for what it is, thus i have quite trying with your's or any one else who supports the perfect scenario.

Yes, I did - I do not respond to posts without reading them through fully.
The fact is, it's not possible. You can insist it is all you like, but it's not.

TallBearNC wrote...

I DO understand the *Kayden's* argument about performance, but bad performance with DX10 cards under DX11 does NOT = DX 10 cards are not supported, does NOT = DX11 effects are being forced on the DX10 card, does NOT = an understanding of programming, API calls and functionality. He can't use performance to list facts about how DX11 works (or is supposed to work)

Exactly.

I'm going to PM a moderator to get this thread cleaned up, because frankly this is going nowhere and helps no one.

Edit: PM sent.

Modifié par BTCentral, 20 mars 2011 - 07:08 .

[TallBearNC]

Kayden SiNafey wrote...

TallBearNC wrote...
see my above post

why you haven't read mine for what it is, thus i have quite trying with your's or any one else who supports the perfect scenario.

 I have read your posts in detail. That's why I finally chimed in. You've been bashing your "Facts" into people for days, and incorrect factd at that.

EDIT:

What a good argument from you would be

" I know how DX11 SHOULD be working with DX11 and DX10 cards, but from my gaming experience, it doesn't seem/appear to be working as intended"

That's is a VERY valid argument.

We are telling you how it SHOULD work, how it's coded, and what's possible and not possible. Unless  you are an engineer or programmer, this is not a subject you would be qualified to speak on. You can't force tessalation on a DX10 card. The factual definition of DX11 CLEARLY states it supports several modes and disabls support for DX11 effects if the hardware doesn't support it.

Now I'll flip your one of your arguments on to you....

I dare you, CLEARLY show me that tessalation (or any other DX11 fx) is being used in "high" mode on the game on *either* a DX11 or DX10 card. If I knew you in person, I'd slap you $1000 if you could prove that because I know it can not/is not being done. So show me video or a screenshot in "high" (not very high) in DA2 that clearly shows DX11 Fx are being used.

Modifié par TallBearNC, 20 mars 2011 - 07:09 .

[Nate Kl]

TalonXV wrote...

RoboCobra wrote...

SPECS:
Intel® Core™2 Duo CPU T6500 @ 2.10GHz
ATI Mobility Radeon HD 4650
512MB VRAM
Windows 7 Ultimate 32bit
Signature Edition of DA2

PROBLEM:
I click "Play" from the DA2 launcher and it crashes instantly, saying "Dragon age 2 has stopped working." I have tried virtually every solution in these forums to get this fixed. "Checking online for a solution to the problem" just does nothing. I tried running it in compatibility mode for XP SP2, running it as administrator, reinstalled DA2 three times, ran it with DX9, NOTHING works. It STILL crashes. I have already submitted a report on the main page's technical support.

This is the exact problem I am having.  Sig addition also.

SPECS:
Intel® Core™2 Quad CPU Q6700 @ 2.66GHz
GeForce GTX 470
1280MB GDDR5
Windows 7 Pro 64bit

Same Probelm here.

[TallBearNC]

Nate Kl wrote...

TalonXV wrote...

RoboCobra wrote...

SPECS:
Intel® Core™2 Duo CPU T6500 @ 2.10GHz
ATI Mobility Radeon HD 4650
512MB VRAM
Windows 7 Ultimate 32bit
Signature Edition of DA2

PROBLEM:
I click "Play" from the DA2 launcher and it crashes instantly, saying "Dragon age 2 has stopped working." I have tried virtually every solution in these forums to get this fixed. "Checking online for a solution to the problem" just does nothing. I tried running it in compatibility mode for XP SP2, running it as administrator, reinstalled DA2 three times, ran it with DX9, NOTHING works. It STILL crashes. I have already submitted a report on the main page's technical support.

This is the exact problem I am having.  Sig addition also.

SPECS:
Intel® Core™2 Quad CPU Q6700 @ 2.66GHz
GeForce GTX 470
1280MB GDDR5
Windows 7 Pro 64bit

Same Probelm here.

Usually a DA crash on launch is a problem with DX or MS VC++, but not always.

C:\\Program Files (x86)\\Electronic Arts\\Dragon Age™ II\\__Installer\\DISK1 is where the misc install things are on my machine. Locate them on yours

Then go into DirextX folder and run DX Setup. This will refresh/update/repair your DX subsystem.

Then go into Redistributable and run vcredist_x86.exe

After you have run and installed both, reboot your machine. See if that helps.

Other causes can be: driver problems, AV issues, etc, DLC issues

Also try running the out of game config program and re saving the settings. A corrupt settings file will cause a crash also

If everything fails, uninstall the game, delete everything under the bioware folder EXCEPT screenshots and Characters. This will save your save games and screenshots, but delete all settings and DLC.

If you can't uninstall the game, I can tell you how to do a force, manual uninstall

Modifié par TallBearNC, 20 mars 2011 - 07:07 .

[TallBearNC]

@Kayden, @Bt, I think we can clearly agree this thread should NOT be for debate or arguing. This thread was made to help and assist people with the game's DX11 rendering engine

If we want to debate the issue, why dont we do it in the thread I created? The one where I explain how the game uses DX10 in an 11 environment, etc. I clearly stated that I welcomed anyone's opions/comments on my post there...

Then this thread can go back to what is was intended for and a mod stepping in and/or locking it would not be needed.

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/300/index/6657347/1

Modifié par TallBearNC, 20 mars 2011 - 07:14 .

[BTCentral]

TallBearNC wrote...

@Kayden, @Bt, I think we can clearly agree this thread should NOT be for debate or arguing. This thread was made to help and assist people with the game's DX11 rendering engine

If we want to debate the issue, why dont we do it in the thread I created? The one where I explain how the game uses DX10 in an 11 environment, etc. I clearly stated that I welcomed anyone's opions/comments on my post there...

Then this thread can go back to what is was intended for and a mod stepping in and/or locking it would not be needed.

social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/300/index/6657347/1

Good idea, I PM'd a moderator to get this one cleaned up anyhow.

[Solinsky]

With all the driver tweaks, multiple reinstalls and nothing has stopped this game from crashing continuously and locking up my computer. Can we at least get some word from Bioware what they are doing and if they have found what the problem is? It would be much appreciated.