1560 réponses à ce sujet

[Kayden SiNafey]

This post goes out to BTCentral, MaxPayne37 and TallBearNC specifically and any one else who believes DX11 turns off Tessellation on High. I thought about how best to disprove this over and over in my head today and then it dawned on me I got a screen shot prepatch 1.01 which showed the Tessellation wire frames around a rock very close, unfortunately with the new patch they fixed this problem so I can not get more screen shots to show the difference of the Tessellation with wire frame around it but what I can do is get HQ pics of the rock showing that there is a Tessellation effect between DX9 Med, DX11 High, DX11 NO DDOF & NO HQB Very High and DX11 with DDOF & HQB ON.

Before patch 1.01 (where you can see the wire frames)
http://cloud.steampo...920341E82C040E/

After patch 1.01
http://i127.photobuc...n3/da2proof.jpg

It's pretty simple and shows a distinct difference in how the rock is rendered between DX9 and DX11 on High, specifically if you at where the (top to bottom) 2nd rock meets the 3rd one you can see the rock dip in very sharply in DX9 but when you look at it in DX10 High it isn't just the texture that changes with the shadows it's also the geometry it bows out further and that effect is further exaggerated when you look at Very High, this is consistent with Tessellation nothing else. There are more examples of the smaller rock being changed by Tessellation but that was the most noticeable to me. To prove this point further look at the rock in the background in DX9 there is no pitting but when you got to DX11 High it starts there and continues this through out the rest of the screen shots, now it could be pointed out that it's bump mapping but if you look closely towards the center there is an obvious point where it comes out at meaning again the geometry for the model changed it's not just textures or bump mapping. The bump mapping maybe being used for the 4 divots but it wouldn't make it point out as sharply as it does at the point of convergence there, also bump mapping is supported in DX9 so that effect if were only bump mapping would be consistent between DX9 & DX11 so Tessellation must be in play here. A distant shot is one thing up close and personal is another because from a distance you can not look at everything as closely so I apologize if I didn't make that point clear when I saw your SS TallBearNC but I should have so I am trying to help point that out now for you. Now all of you or some of you will probably say I am off my rocker and don't know anything but what ever, this is clear and definitive proof that Tessellation is being using on High mode granted a lot less then the Very High but that is too be expected. Thus DX10 cards are going to have a performance hit when DX11 is enabled, end of story.

This proves a little more the facts that I have given before that  DX11 is still enabling at the very least with Tessellation. The Theory that DX10 with the DX11 renderer is only using DX10 features with High is erroneous and needs to stop here and now. The point with the Bioware tech blog you posted about BTCentral is that the game runs with a DX10 card because it backwards compatible with DX11 meaning it has access to those features in the DX11 build, it did not say DX10 could use the DX11 features what so ever, just that it would run if you have DX11 installed.

FYI I have shown this pic to a few other ppl before posting here and they agree with what I am telling you to prove your theory is wrong, again these are ppl who if they think I am wrong will tell me and they see by the pic or by the facts I have shown them, along with  ALL of yours. I tell them everything because I want to prove the correctness of my view and you can only do that with showing both sides of the discussion.

The next step I am going to take if you continue to believe this is try and contact Bioware directly to get the information from ppl who made the game and not a well it should do this scenario. Again if I am wrong I will retract what I have said and apologize to you guys, but it's getting harder and harder to prove your pov that just because it works it only uses DX10 features with High.

[BTCentral]

Kayden SiNafey wrote...

This post goes out to BTCentral, MaxPayne37 and TallBearNC specifically and any one else who believes DX11 turns off Tessellation on High. I thought about how best to disprove this over and over in my head today and then it dawned on me I got a screen shot prepatch 1.01 which showed the Tessellation wire frames around a rock very close, unfortunately with the new patch they fixed this problem so I can not get more screen shots to show the difference of the Tessellation with wire frame around it but what I can do is get HQ pics of the rock showing that there is a Tessellation effect between DX9 Med, DX11 High, DX11 NO DDOF & NO HQB Very High and DX11 with DDOF & HQB ON.

Do you even know what a wireframe is? That is not a wireframe. This is a wireframe:



As for your point - you are still wrong. That is simply the difference between the way Direct X 9 and Direct X 10/11 use the HQ textures.

There is barely a noticeable difference when using the HQ textures in DX9 mode, yet when you go to DX10 mode they are very noticeable - there is actually quite a noticable difference between DX11 High and Very High - tesselation is noticable when you don't provide screenshots that are all differenent sizes with spaces in between to try and prove your point.

Also try comparing screenshots that are not taken from a cutscene that has other effects going on that would not normally be in use.

As for getting someone from BioWare to comment, feel free - I am more than happy for them to say you are wrong too

When I am home from work this evening I will show you the actual real differences between DX9, 10 and 11 mode -
at which point hopefully you will finally realise that you are wrong - I am starting to think that perhaps you don't actually know what tesselation is, and that is why you are convinced you are correct.

Modifié par BTCentral, 21 mars 2011 - 02:04 .

[orpheus333]

 Cool post but i don't get why this is such an important issue for you guys. DX11 performance sucks on DX11 hardware, DX11 crashes on DX11 hardware and Bioware/nVidia need to pull their fingers out and get it sorted. 

Modifié par andyr1986, 21 mars 2011 - 01:49 .

[Kayden SiNafey]

BTCentral wrote...

Kayden SiNafey wrote...

This post goes out to BTCentral, MaxPayne37 and TallBearNC specifically and any one else who believes DX11 turns off Tessellation on High. I thought about how best to disprove this over and over in my head today and then it dawned on me I got a screen shot prepatch 1.01 which showed the Tessellation wire frames around a rock very close, unfortunately with the new patch they fixed this problem so I can not get more screen shots to show the difference of the Tessellation with wire frame around it but what I can do is get HQ pics of the rock showing that there is a Tessellation effect between DX9 Med, DX11 High, DX11 NO DDOF & NO HQB Very High and DX11 with DDOF & HQB ON.

Do you even know what a wireframe is? That is not a wireframe. This is a wireframe:



As for your point - you are still wrong. That is simply the difference between the way Direct X 9 and Direct X 10/11 use the HQ textures.

There is barely a noticeable difference when using the HQ textures in DX9 mode, yet when you go to DX10 mode they are very noticeable - there is actually quite a noticable difference between DX11 High and Very High - tesselation is noticable when you don't provide screenshots that are all differenent sizes with spaces in between to try and prove your point.

Also try comparing screenshots that are not taken from a cutscene that has other effects going on that would not normally be in use.

As for getting someone from BioWare to comment, feel free - I am more than happy for them to say you are wrong too

When I am home from work this evening I will show you the actual real differences between DX9, 10 and 11 mode -
at which point hopefully you will finally realise that you are wrong - I am starting to think that perhaps you don't actually know what tesselation is, and that is why you are convinced you are correct.

Okay maybe that is for the blur and not the wireframe I can agree on that say I am wrong. But so are you? DX11 requirement in the game information does not mean DX10 will run DX11 features, can you not read or understand that? Bioware I am sure will prove one of us right and to say only your view is the right one is ignorant and short sighted. Take your ego out of the eauation and look at what is in front of you NOT what you want.

Modifié par Kayden SiNafey, 21 mars 2011 - 02:15 .

[Kayden SiNafey]

andyr1986 wrote...

 Cool post but i don't get why this is such an important issue for you guys. DX11 performance sucks on DX11 hardware, DX11 crashes on DX11 hardware and Bioware/nVidia need to pull their fingers out and get it sorted. 

because ppl are complaining DX11 renderer is making their DX10 machines run like crap. I contest this is because DX11 features are still being used on High and you need to go to DX9 for it to run correctly, they say DX10 is just fine to run on High and that ALL DX11 features are turned off. The problem is they want me and every one else to believe that this how it is supposed to be when nothing could be farther from the truth. Thus they are telling ppl to keep using it even if they are having bad performance and I am saying no they shouldn't. I agree DX11 is crap in this game but ati is also to blame as well, but the sole responsibility is bioware they rushed this out too fast and nvidia/ati didn't have time to get their drivers setup correctly.

[BTCentral]

Kayden SiNafey wrote...

Okay maybe that is for the blur and not the wireframe I can agree on that say I am wrong. But so are you? DX11 requirement in the game information does not mean DX10 will run DX11 features, can you not read or understand that? Bioware I am sure will prove one of us right and to say only your view is the right one is ignorant and short sighted. Take your ego out of the eauation and look at what is in front of you NOT what you want.

This is nothing to do with my "ego" - this is to do with the fact that you were spreading incorrect information. As for the rest of what you said - that's what MaxPayne37, TallBearNC and myself have been trying to tell you all along? A DX10 card can not run DX11 features. Glad you agree with us, finally.

Also, here's a fair comparison of the screenshots you took, all of the images are now the same size and focus only on the rock you were attempting to use to illustrate your point - take a look at the DX9/10/11 comparison.

You will notice I highlighted the differences for you - and they are plain as day to see now that the images are side by side and the same size.

The underlying problem with performance with the game is nothing do with DX10 mode or features being enabled that should not be, but rather issues with the DX11 renderer (which the DX10 mode is used via) having driver issues (which have been pretty much confirmed, as new drivers dramatically increase performance) it's also possible that there may be coding issues with the BioWare's DX11 implementation in the game engine.

Modifié par BTCentral, 21 mars 2011 - 02:42 .

[shpydar]

Caustiously Hopefull for NVida players

Like many NVidia players I have had nothing but graphic troubles with DA2 untill I found a work around last week to install the 267.24 on my system and now DA2 plays amazing everything on high detail graphic patch.

The good news is NVidia has now (finally) released the BETA version of the 267.24 drivers for cards lower than the GTX 5X0 cards. Since my system is running perfectly with the walk around I'm not going to download the BETA and try, however if you are still having major problems then I would recogmend giving the BETA drivers a try and posting if they work.

If not here is a post to the workaround to get the official 267.24 drivers working with your card.
http://social.biowar...0/index/6688839

Specs.

Keep in mind that although I have a system that is almost a year old, it is custom built so my specs are above average.

DA2
Resolution: 1920x1080
Aspect Ratio: Widescreen (16:9)
Graphic Detail: Very High
Anti-Aliasing: 8x
High Resolution Textures: Enabled
Renderer: DirectX 11
Vertical Sysnc: Enabled
Anisotropic filtering: 16x
Screen space ambient occlusion: Enabled
Diffusion depth of field: Enabled
High Quality Blur: Enabled

System
Mainboard: ASUS P6TD Deluxe
Sound Renderer: Onboard SoundMAX Integrated Digital HD Audio
Processor: Intel® Core™ i7 CPU 930 @ 2.80GHz
Installed Memory (RAM): Corsair 6.00GB DDR 3-2000MHz
System Type: Windows 7 64-bit Operating System
Hard Drive: Corsair 1TB Solid State
Video: Dual GTX 470 NVidia in SLI mode
Rating: 6.8 Windows Experience Rating

NVidia Driver: 267.24
Driver Version: 8.17.6759

NVidia Control Panel
SLI configuration: Maximum 3D performance
Adjust image with preview: Use my preferenced emphasizing Quality

Modifié par shpydar, 21 mars 2011 - 03:13 .

[BTCentral]

shpydar wrote...

Like many NVidia players I have had nothing but graphic troubles with DA2 untill I found a work around last week to install the 267.24 on my system and now DA2 plays amazing everything on high detail graphic patch.

Just wanted to point out that the 267.59 WHQL for the 550 Ti/450 GTS drivers will increase your performance even further, you just need to use a modified INI to install them on other cards.

There's detailed instructions on how to use them here.

[Kayden SiNafey]

BTCentral wrote...

Kayden SiNafey wrote...

Okay maybe that is for the blur and not the wireframe I can agree on that say I am wrong. But so are you? DX11 requirement in the game information does not mean DX10 will run DX11 features, can you not read or understand that? Bioware I am sure will prove one of us right and to say only your view is the right one is ignorant and short sighted. Take your ego out of the eauation and look at what is in front of you NOT what you want.

This is nothing to do with my "ego" - this is to do with the fact that you were spreading incorrect information. As for the rest of what you said - that's what MaxPayne37, TallBearNC and myself have been trying to tell you all along? A DX10 card can not run DX11 features. Glad you agree with us, finally.

Also, here's a fair comparison of the screenshots you took, all of the images are now the same size and focus only on the rock you were attempting to use to illustrate your point - take a look at the DX9/10/11 comparison.

You will notice I highlighted the differences for you - and they are plain as day to see now that the images are side by side and the same size.

The underlying problem with performance with the game is nothing do with DX10 mode or features being enabled that should not be, but rather issues with the DX11 renderer (which the DX10 mode is used via) having driver issues (which have been pretty much confirmed, as new drivers dramatically increase performance) it's also possible that there may be coding issues with the BioWare's DX11 implementation in the game engine.

Under your statement I agree with ONLY the wirefire maybe that was for the blur but nothing else you guys have said. Again your reading what you want not what is written thus your ego is out of control your claiming victory before the question has been even posted to Bioware directly, if it isn't ego what is it then? Your Pride because you don't want to be wrong?

I looked at your info to say it is sharper is the only reason for the change is your attempt to blow smoke up my tail pipe. The geomerty will not change because of textures it will make them look sharper with greater detail but bump mapping is used in DX9 and if it was the case of only using that and not Tessellation nothing would have changed between DX9 and DX11 on High. With that in mind your explination is flawed, there is all be it a limited effect of Tessellation in play with High but not as much as it is with Very High. What you don't think the level of Tessellation can change from one mode to the next? Then you need to run Heaven DX11 Benchmark 2.5 because you change the amount of Tessellation in there as well as it can be changed in DA2. What else can I say other than that? I am not going to conced to your Theory until I see facts saying DX11 Tessellation is not being used with High, from either Bioware, with the Dev Console or getting the source code and seeing how the game is renders Tessellation on High, because I am seeing more and more that you (in particular) are reading more of what you want not whats written or fits the facts. I showed you the change you didn't listen, I showed you articles from Bioware and third parties that state the game can run with a DX10 but the game uses DX11 features but you keep going back to "well it works with DX10 with High so it must be only DX10". I have never meet a person so devout in trying to prove themselves right when you wont listen to the other side of the story with open ears, you can't learn that way and you can not trouble shoot that way. For how ever much exp you have you need to learn to listen to your peers and not just those who agree with you. I have listened to you I have brought this up to other technicaly savy ppl who can take criticism and give it in kind and they all believe you theory is wrong and misleading every one, even with all the info disclosed to them because they can read this forum just can't post because they don't own DA2    /c:

Modifié par Kayden SiNafey, 21 mars 2011 - 03:26 .

[Rabb02]

Problem started to occur for me after doing the blood mage quest in the alianage.
Changing back to DX 9 or lowering any settings makes it worse for me.
I didn't have this issue on my core2 but now that I have a new computer I have this problem.

DA2
Resolution: 1680x1050
Aspect Ratio: Widescreen (16:9)
Graphic Detail: Very High
Anti-Aliasing: 8x
High Resolution Textures: Enabled
Renderer: DirectX 11
Vertical Sysnc: Enabled
Anisotropic filtering: 16x
Screen space ambient occlusion: Enabled
Diffusion depth of field: Enabled
High Quality Blur: Enabled

Intel Core i7-2600K
Asus P67 Sabertooh R3
XFX 5770 (Juniper XT)
WD caviar black ITB 7200rpm
CORSAIR Vengeance 8GB ddr3 1600
CORSAIR 750HX PSU

ATI Driver and Control panel are the 11.4 preview version. All options left at default values.

Modifié par Rabb02, 21 mars 2011 - 03:30 .

[woloif]

"Nerd Rage"......wow

[Ragadurn]

Well, no geometry change means no tessellation.

The three-dimensional shape of the rocks didn't change on the picture that shows the DX11 renderer on high, no added polygons. Thus: No tessellation applied to those rocks.

Modifié par Ragadurn, 21 mars 2011 - 03:39 .

[Baramon]

Miriel Amarinth said....
Also running SSAO from what I've heard is hopeless on Nvidia hardware because of the kind of SSAO the game uses being very unoptomized for Nivida cards. I don't even mind the FPS drop that I get when I turn it on, what gets me is the microstutter/delay it introduces when I pan the camera and the characters are moving, making the gameplay feel unsmooth.

I thought it was just me and/or my particular setup!  I get the same "weird" microstuttering and thought I might be imagining it with SSAO enabled, and I didn't like it one bit.  FRAPS said the FPS was still pretty high (like 45 or more) and it was VERY noticeable, so I turned it off.

LightSabres said....
You need to install DA2 1.01 patch. My average FPS went up by 10 after I did,

And I am using the same drivers as you.

Hmmm...I thought the patch only fixed some issues with Saving games and other minor/useless "problems" so I didn't bother with it.  I will now try that as well.

And dammit, now I want to overclock my card, as well!!  Because if I burn the thing out, I can just get a new one.  "That's Justified."  If I just buy a new one for the heck of it, it's not!

andyr1986 said....
....DX11 performance sucks on DX11 hardware, DX11 crashes on DX11 hardware and Bioware/nVidia need to pull their fingers out and get it sorted.

Have you tried any of the suggested "tricks" to improve it?  It's running better than okay on my system now, and I'm happy I did it (with the help of several people here).

Modifié par Baramon, 21 mars 2011 - 03:41 .

[TheImmortalBeaver]

Kayden SiNafey wrote...
Under your statement I agree with ONLY the wirefire maybe that was for the blur but nothing else you guys have said. Again your reading what you want not what is written thus your ego is out of control your claiming victory before the question has been even posted to Bioware directly, if it isn't ego what is it then? Your Pride because you don't want to be wrong?

I looked at your info to say it is sharper is the only reason for the change is your attempt to blow smoke up my tail pipe. The geomerty will not change because of textures it will make them look sharper with greater detail but bump mapping is used in DX9 and if it was the case of only using that and not Tessellation nothing would have changed between DX9 and DX11 on High. With that in mind your explination is flawed, there is all be it a limited effect of Tessellation in play with High but not as much as it is with Very High. What you don't think the level of Tessellation can change from one mode to the next? Then you need to run Heaven DX11 Benchmark 2.5 because you change the amount of Tessellation in there as well as it can be changed in DA2. What else can I say other than that? I am not going to conced to your Theory until I see facts saying DX11 Tessellation is not being used with High, from either Bioware, with the Dev Console or getting the source code and seeing how the game is renders Tessellation on High, because I am seeing more and more that you (in particular) are reading more of what you want not whats written or fits the facts. I showed you the change you didn't listen, I showed you articles from Bioware and third parties that state the game can run with a DX10 but the game uses DX11 features but you keep going back to "well it works with DX10 with High so it must be only DX10". I have never meet a person so devout in trying to prove themselves right when you wont listen to the other side of the story with open ears, you can't learn that way and you can not trouble shoot that way. For how ever much exp you have you need to learn to listen to your peers and not just those who agree with you. I have listened to you I have brought this up to other technicaly savy ppl who can take criticism and give it in kind and they all believe you theory is wrong and misleading every one, even with all the info disclosed to them because they can read this forum just can't post because they don't own DA2    /c:

Dude, I don't mean to be rude, but how is your insistance that you're right any less arrogant than the other people insisting they're right? Hell, we're all probably wrong, as this is all conjecture anyway.
Secondly, the data does seem to be supporting the fact that High only runs DX10 features, if for no other reason that there is not really any proof that it's running tessalation and that ANY settings on the DX11 Software renderer (AKA, medium or lower) have terrible framerates. With tesselation on Very High enabled, a pretty substantial improvement in existing geomerty on small scale objects is present that is not seen on other settings. This actually may not be tesselation, but that's the only truly noticable detail that changes on textures/objects between High and Very High.
Once again, I would like to specify that the game runs poorly under the DX11 software renderer even on Medium settings (-30 FPS over a normal steady framerate for me, and several other DX11 card users). And Medium DEFINITELY doesn't use Tesselation. The implimentation of the renderer is the problem here, not the use of DX10 cards.
Please feel free to proffer proof of any wrongdoing on my part. Of course, this is the internet. You'd probably do that anyway.

[BTCentral]

Misterpinky0 wrote...

Once again, I would like to specify that the game runs poorly under the DX11 software renderer even on Medium settings (-30 FPS over a normal steady framerate for me, and several other DX11 card users). And Medium DEFINITELY doesn't use Tesselation. The implimentation of the renderer is the problem here, not the use of DX10 cards.

You hit the nail on the head.

Kayden SiNafey wrote...

BTCentral wrote...

Also, here's a fair comparison of the screenshots you took, all of the images are now the same size and focus only on the rock you were attempting to use to illustrate your point - take a look at the DX9/10/11 comparison.

Kayden SiNafey wrote...

Under your statement I agree with ONLY the wirefire maybe that was for the blur but nothing else you guys have said. Again your reading what you want not what is written thus your ego is out of control your claiming victory before the question has been even posted to Bioware directly, if it isn't ego what is it then? Your Pride because you don't want to be wrong?

It's not ego, pride, or any other imaginary emotion you might want to bring into the equation. You are the only one that ever brings them up, so perhaps it is you that actually has the problem with the above?

I would ask that you try to remain civil please - everyone else has been throughout, it would be nice if you could be too.

Kayden SiNafey wrote...

I looked at your info to say it is sharper is the only reason for the change is your attempt to blow smoke up my tail pipe. The geomerty will not change because of textures it will make them look sharper with greater detail but bump mapping is used in DX9 and if it was the case of only using that and not Tessellation nothing would have changed between DX9 and DX11 on High.

Firstly DX9 can not be used on High mode, so things are obviously going to change between DX9 and 11 as the texture quality will not only be higher, but the textures will be more detailed.

I can prove to you that there is a dramatic difference between DX9 and DX11 mode by using Photoshop's subtract blend mode and overlaying the DX11 image on top of the DX9 image like so:



Black is shown where there are no changes between the two images leaving any differences between the images shown.

As you can see the texture has been almost completely highlighted as it has changed dramatically. Flemeth's Hair has also been highlighted because it is in a different places between the screenshots you provided and the blur effect is shown because it is not present in the DX9 image.

Now we can do the same with DX10 and 11 mode:



As you can see, the differences between the two images are very small? Why? Because the only difference between the two is Tessellation improving the surface texture of the texture of the Direct X 11 image, again the blur is shown because it is not present in the DX10 image.

And finally, the differences between DX9 and 10 mode.



As you can see, the only difference for the rock is the texture quality - this provides irrefutable proof that Tessellation is not enabled when using DX10 mode.

At the end of the day the fact is I have offered ample proof that it is doing what it should be - all you are doing is saying I am not correct and are not providing any facts or proof to show otherwise. It is rather ironic that the images you provided trying to make a point have actually proven mine.

Anyhow, I am sure the people of the community can come to a decision about who is correct from the information given.

Modifié par BTCentral, 21 mars 2011 - 05:23 .

[TallBearNC]

Kayden SiNafey wrote...

This post goes out to BTCentral, MaxPayne37 and TallBearNC specifically and any one else who believes DX11 turns off Tessellation on High. I thought about how best to disprove this over and over in my head today and then it dawned on me I got a screen shot prepatch 1.01 which showed the Tessellation wire frames around a rock very close, unfortunately with the new patch they fixed this problem so I can not get more screen shots to show the difference of the Tessellation with wire frame around it but what I can do is get HQ pics of the rock showing that there is a Tessellation effect between DX9 Med, DX11 High, DX11 NO DDOF & NO HQB Very High and DX11 with DDOF & HQB ON.

Before patch 1.01 (where you can see the wire frames)
http://cloud.steampo...920341E82C040E/

After patch 1.01
http://i127.photobuc...n3/da2proof.jpg

It's pretty simple and shows a distinct difference in how the rock is rendered between DX9 and DX11 on High, specifically if you at where the (top to bottom) 2nd rock meets the 3rd one you can see the rock dip in very sharply in DX9 but when you look at it in DX10 High it isn't just the texture that changes with the shadows it's also the geometry it bows out further and that effect is further exaggerated when you look at Very High, this is consistent with Tessellation nothing else. There are more examples of the smaller rock being changed by Tessellation but that was the most noticeable to me. To prove this point further look at the rock in the background in DX9 there is no pitting but when you got to DX11 High it starts there and continues this through out the rest of the screen shots, now it could be pointed out that it's bump mapping but if you look closely towards the center there is an obvious point where it comes out at meaning again the geometry for the model changed it's not just textures or bump mapping. The bump mapping maybe being used for the 4 divots but it wouldn't make it point out as sharply as it does at the point of convergence there, also bump mapping is supported in DX9 so that effect if were only bump mapping would be consistent between DX9 & DX11 so Tessellation must be in play here. A distant shot is one thing up close and personal is another because from a distance you can not look at everything as closely so I apologize if I didn't make that point clear when I saw your SS TallBearNC but I should have so I am trying to help point that out now for you. Now all of you or some of you will probably say I am off my rocker and don't know anything but what ever, this is clear and definitive proof that Tessellation is being using on High mode granted a lot less then the Very High but that is too be expected. Thus DX10 cards are going to have a performance hit when DX11 is enabled, end of story.

This proves a little more the facts that I have given before that  DX11 is still enabling at the very least with Tessellation. The Theory that DX10 with the DX11 renderer is only using DX10 features with High is erroneous and needs to stop here and now. The point with the Bioware tech blog you posted about BTCentral is that the game runs with a DX10 card because it backwards compatible with DX11 meaning it has access to those features in the DX11 build, it did not say DX10 could use the DX11 features what so ever, just that it would run if you have DX11 installed.

FYI I have shown this pic to a few other ppl before posting here and they agree with what I am telling you to prove your theory is wrong, again these are ppl who if they think I am wrong will tell me and they see by the pic or by the facts I have shown them, along with  ALL of yours. I tell them everything because I want to prove the correctness of my view and you can only do that with showing both sides of the discussion.

The next step I am going to take if you continue to believe this is try and contact Bioware directly to get the information from ppl who made the game and not a well it should do this scenario. Again if I am wrong I will retract what I have said and apologize to you guys, but it's getting harder and harder to prove your pov that just because it works it only uses DX10 features with High.

Wrong. Please stop trolling the thread. That's not even a wireframe LOL

You need to post a screenshots of the exact same screne on very high vs high OR use tools to post wireframes showing actuall tesslation displacement, etc going on

Modifié par TallBearNC, 21 mars 2011 - 05:32 .

[TallBearNC]

Kayden SiNafey wrote...

andyr1986 wrote...

 Cool post but i don't get why this is such an important issue for you guys. DX11 performance sucks on DX11 hardware, DX11 crashes on DX11 hardware and Bioware/nVidia need to pull their fingers out and get it sorted. 

because ppl are complaining DX11 renderer is making their DX10 machines run like crap. I contest this is because DX11 features are still being used on High and you need to go to DX9 for it to run correctly, they say DX10 is just fine to run on High and that ALL DX11 features are turned off. The problem is they want me and every one else to believe that this how it is supposed to be when nothing could be farther from the truth. Thus they are telling ppl to keep using it even if they are having bad performance and I am saying no they shouldn't. I agree DX11 is crap in this game but ati is also to blame as well, but the sole responsibility is bioware they rushed this out too fast and nvidia/ati didn't have time to get their drivers setup correctly.

The game runs just PERECT for me on high... it's when I go to VERY HIGH is when my performance goes to hell and back.

I can even slap in my 2, old 8800s, and the game actually plays decent on medium and high as well

(this is with the updated drivers of course) And when I say decent, I mean 25fps or better. and perfect for me is 30fps or better

So yes.. something major gets turned on @ very high.. could it be.. tessallation?

[TallBearNC]

Ragadurn wrote...

Well, no geometry change means no tessellation.

The three-dimensional shape of the rocks didn't change on the picture that shows the DX11 renderer on high, no added polygons. Thus: No tessellation applied to those rocks.

DA2 doesn't use a lot of extra polygons to do tessallation displacement like some other DX11 games. It mostly uses it to do terrain smoothing (it's posted in their blog). So you wouldn't see a ton of extra detail on the terrain. You will see some, but it won't be earthshattering.

Modifié par TallBearNC, 21 mars 2011 - 05:45 .

[Tahnit]

Is this guy seriously claiming dx10 can do hardware tessellation? Im not even a graphics programmer and i know that is 100% incorrect. I bet he doesn't know what tessellation is.

Tessellation is hardware based geometry deformation in real time. Thats it.

[Belhawk]

is there a difference between ssao and ao?
i went to nvidea control panel and selected program settings. In there it said ao wasn't supported.

[BTCentral]

Belhawk wrote...

is there a difference between ssao and ao?
i went to nvidea control panel and selected program settings. In there it said ao wasn't supported.

The differences are listed here hope this helps.

[Ragadurn]

TallBearNC wrote...

Ragadurn wrote...

Well, no geometry change means no tessellation.

The three-dimensional shape of the rocks didn't change on the picture that shows the DX11 renderer on high, no added polygons. Thus: No tessellation applied to those rocks.

DA2 doesn't use a lot of extra polygons to do tessallation displacement like some other DX11 games. It mostly uses it to do terrain smoothing (it's posted in their blog). So you wouldn't see a ton of extra detail on the terrain. You will see some, but it won't be earthshattering.

To my eye, it is noticeable. The rocks are one example. The whole mesh changes volume.

Also, check the ground detail in Kirkwall. True, there are other, older methods to do this. However, you'll notice that the gaps between floor tiles are changed to true 3D depth which is not achieved through bump mapping or parallax occlusion. In fact, most of the ground comes up so that characters' feet sink partly into the ground.

These improved environmental details (like the rocks in the comparison) are the main use for tessellation in DA2.

That's why I thought the comparison would make it obvious to anyone that there is no tessellation in effect on the high detail setting.

[MaxPayne37]

Kayden SiNafey wrote...

This post goes out to BTCentral, MaxPayne37 and TallBearNC specifically and any one else who believes DX11 turns off Tessellation on High. I thought about how best to disprove this over and over in my head today and then it dawned on me I got a screen shot prepatch 1.01 which showed the Tessellation wire frames around a rock very close, unfortunately with the new patch they fixed this problem so I can not get more screen shots to show the difference of the Tessellation with wire frame around it but what I can do is get HQ pics of the rock showing that there is a Tessellation effect between DX9 Med, DX11 High, DX11 NO DDOF & NO HQB Very High and DX11 with DDOF & HQB ON.

Before patch 1.01 (where you can see the wire frames)
http://cloud.steampo...920341E82C040E/

After patch 1.01
http://i127.photobuc...n3/da2proof.jpg

It's pretty simple and shows a distinct difference in how the rock is rendered between DX9 and DX11 on High, specifically if you at where the (top to bottom) 2nd rock meets the 3rd one you can see the rock dip in very sharply in DX9 but when you look at it in DX10 High it isn't just the texture that changes with the shadows it's also the geometry it bows out further and that effect is further exaggerated when you look at Very High, this is consistent with Tessellation nothing else. There are more examples of the smaller rock being changed by Tessellation but that was the most noticeable to me. To prove this point further look at the rock in the background in DX9 there is no pitting but when you got to DX11 High it starts there and continues this through out the rest of the screen shots, now it could be pointed out that it's bump mapping but if you look closely towards the center there is an obvious point where it comes out at meaning again the geometry for the model changed it's not just textures or bump mapping. The bump mapping maybe being used for the 4 divots but it wouldn't make it point out as sharply as it does at the point of convergence there, also bump mapping is supported in DX9 so that effect if were only bump mapping would be consistent between DX9 & DX11 so Tessellation must be in play here. A distant shot is one thing up close and personal is another because from a distance you can not look at everything as closely so I apologize if I didn't make that point clear when I saw your SS TallBearNC but I should have so I am trying to help point that out now for you. Now all of you or some of you will probably say I am off my rocker and don't know anything but what ever, this is clear and definitive proof that Tessellation is being using on High mode granted a lot less then the Very High but that is too be expected. Thus DX10 cards are going to have a performance hit when DX11 is enabled, end of story.

This proves a little more the facts that I have given before that  DX11 is still enabling at the very least with Tessellation. The Theory that DX10 with the DX11 renderer is only using DX10 features with High is erroneous and needs to stop here and now. The point with the Bioware tech blog you posted about BTCentral is that the game runs with a DX10 card because it backwards compatible with DX11 meaning it has access to those features in the DX11 build, it did not say DX10 could use the DX11 features what so ever, just that it would run if you have DX11 installed.

FYI I have shown this pic to a few other ppl before posting here and they agree with what I am telling you to prove your theory is wrong, again these are ppl who if they think I am wrong will tell me and they see by the pic or by the facts I have shown them, along with  ALL of yours. I tell them everything because I want to prove the correctness of my view and you can only do that with showing both sides of the discussion.

The next step I am going to take if you continue to believe this is try and contact Bioware directly to get the information from ppl who made the game and not a well it should do this scenario. Again if I am wrong I will retract what I have said and apologize to you guys, but it's getting harder and harder to prove your pov that just because it works it only uses DX10 features with High.

STOP TESTING DX10 THEORIES WITH DX11 HARDWARE!! That's your first problem right there, obviously your results might be different than a DX10 card running High compared to a DX11 card running High.

Also, people that have experienced performance problems on High, such as myself, fixed them by modding that 267.59 driver. Your "solution" is just to insinuate that DX10 cards don't run High very well, and you can't fix it, so run Medium on DX9, when that is obviously false for some people. Not all, but those other people are having other issues, and not ALL DX10 people are SOL, so please, don't generalize. And don't blame "crappy" DX10 performance on tessellation, that's NOT THERE. There are other DX10 effects that may be causing performance hits, but tessellation is not one of them.

[rabidelfman]

 Sooooo... any headway on the micro-stuttering issues with AMD video cards? 

[BTCentral]

rabidelfman wrote...

 Sooooo... any headway on the micro-stuttering issues with AMD video cards? 

Not that I'm aware of - that issue also effected nVidia cards prior to the 167.59 drivers too.
It'll likely either be fixed when AMD release new drivers, or BioWare releases a new patch.