1560 réponses à ce sujet

[BTCentral]

Kayden SiNafey wrote...

BTCentral wrote...

Kayden SiNafey wrote...

EDIT 2:
I just got my 580gtx FTW Hydro Copper 2 and I remembered it was the only cards with the FTW branding for the 5xx series and I just double checked, you are running the 570 Superclocked. Nice setup by any means, I just wanted to make sure we were on the same page.

Actually, no. There is a 570 FTW - take a look at the box [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/wink.png[/smilie]

Seriously your going to nit pick everything I say now?!?

No, I am not nit picking everything you say.

You are correct actually, I apologise - my mistake the box shows the editions EVGA offer, though they are not all available for that specific card. The site I referenced was actually incorrect.

Modifié par BTCentral, 22 mars 2011 - 01:56 .

[Daedalus51]

just to bring this discussion "maybe" to an end....I found this on a very well known german hardware site: http://www.pcgamesha...Adventure/Test/

Go and check out the pics with the comparisons.

@Kaiden, I do only have a gtx285 and Iam running the game in dx11 (that only enables dx10 fx on my card) and I use the 267.59 driver with a modded .inf and you know what? It runs perfectly smooth on 1920x1080, 4x AA, 16x AF settings on high and the highrez textures activated. Yes I do have soft shadows, but these are normal soft shadows from dx10, not the contact hardened soft shadows dx11 supports, I dont have any tesselation, because as you can se on the screenshots I provided its not possible with dx10 cards (whitch are the effects that are supported with dx10 cards in dx11 rendering mode).

And now....only to be complete...there is ONE WAY....to get Tesselation on even graphiccards that only support dx9!!!

BUT....not with Dragon Age 2. Tesselation is a technique that was also well known via OpenGL Extensions 3 years ago . And that Tesselation can only be used on dx11 hardware is not true....but it is true that it can only be used in dx11 because the other versions of directx wont support it. But Tesselation is nothing new and was well known before dx11 came, just only by the OpenGL guys and sadly, they never made it to get really big in the business.

[Raydenos256]

DarKRealm79 wrote...

I found a solution for my GTX580 system in the meanwhile. DA2 crashed every few minutes before I found out that it seems to be the factory-oc-setting of my card.

My MSI Twin Frozr II is OC from factory but there seems to be the problem.
Factory-OC:
Core-Clock: 822
Shader-Clock: 1645
Memory: 2138

I have set the clocks to the Nvidia default settings and all DX11 and DX10 games, including DA2 are working without any problems so far. I will do a burn-in test tomorrow and will let you know if it is realy the problem.
Core-Clock: 772
Shader-Clock: 1544
Memory: 2004

For all settings I used the MSI-Tool Afterburner v2.0.
Any Idea where i can report the problem directly, manufacturer, Nvidia?
I'm near sure that it is a problem of the driver control.

You are absolutely right. The ****in game crashes only if it is factory overclocked. I had the same crash problem on my Gigabyte GTX 570 OC (factory overclocked) version of the card.

Nvidia/manufacturer really need to do something with it. There are some titles which don't crash at all even with factory OC settings, but it seems this game does.

[foil-]

Raydenos256 wrote...

DarKRealm79 wrote...

I found a solution for my GTX580 system in the meanwhile. DA2 crashed every few minutes before I found out that it seems to be the factory-oc-setting of my card.

My MSI Twin Frozr II is OC from factory but there seems to be the problem.
Factory-OC:
Core-Clock: 822
Shader-Clock: 1645
Memory: 2138

I have set the clocks to the Nvidia default settings and all DX11 and DX10 games, including DA2 are working without any problems so far. I will do a burn-in test tomorrow and will let you know if it is realy the problem.
Core-Clock: 772
Shader-Clock: 1544
Memory: 2004

For all settings I used the MSI-Tool Afterburner v2.0.
Any Idea where i can report the problem directly, manufacturer, Nvidia?
I'm near sure that it is a problem of the driver control.

You are absolutely right. The ****in game crashes only if it is factory overclocked. I had the same crash problem on my Gigabyte GTX 570 OC (factory overclocked) version of the card.

Nvidia/manufacturer really need to do something with it. There are some titles which don't crash at all even with factory OC settings, but it seems this game does.

Seems to be manufacturer specific.  Some of the early higher overclocks were prone to crashing more than the more mild overclocks.  I think gigabyte was one of them but I'm going from memory here.  I chose the 560Ti OC that I have since it appeared to be generally free of crashes (albeit with a lower overclock).  There was one highly overclocked card out there that wasn't prone to crashes, but I can't remember the brand name for the life of me, or the reference site that did the testing.

Of course there will be some DA2 specific crashes related to video cards as well.  But I think many who have used afterburner or similar tools to set their manufacturer overclocked card back to reference clocks have had some success dealing with crashes.  I sorta recall one fella way back when this thread was young however mentioning that underclocking didn't help him.  Bit of a crap shoot.  Too....many.....variables.  Gotta take one of those 100% brain activating pills.  What a waste of 99% without them.

Modifié par foil-, 22 mars 2011 - 02:54 .

[Kayden SiNafey]

BTCentral wrote...
You are correct actually, I apologise - my mistake the box shows the editions EVGA offer, though they are not all available for that specific card. The site I referenced was actually incorrect.

Thanks I appreciate that.

Daedalus51 wrote...

just to bring this discussion "maybe"
to an end....I found this on a very well known german hardware site:
http://www.pcgamesha...Adventure/Test/

Go and check out the pics with the comparisons.

@Kaiden,
I do only have a gtx285 and Iam running the game in dx11 (that only
enables dx10 fx on my card) and I use the 267.59 driver with a modded
.inf and you know what? It runs perfectly smooth on 1920x1080, 4x AA,
16x AF settings on high and the highrez textures activated. Yes I do
have soft shadows, but these are normal soft shadows from dx10, not the
contact hardened soft shadows dx11 supports, I dont have any
tesselation, because as you can se on the screenshots I provided its not
possible with dx10 cards (whitch are the effects that are supported
with dx10 cards in dx11 rendering mode).

And now....only to be complete...there is ONE WAY....to get Tesselation on even graphiccards that only support dx9!!!

BUT....not
with Dragon Age 2. Tesselation is a technique that was also well known
via OpenGL Extensions 3 years ago . And that Tesselation can only be
used on dx11 hardware is not true....but it is true that it can only be
used in dx11 because the other versions of directx wont support it. But
Tesselation is nothing new and was well known before dx11 came, just
only by the OpenGL guys and sadly, they never made it to get really big
in the business.

Here is something I did think about. That when running DX11 hardware and you go to high it is running Tessellation but not when you have DX10 hardware like you guys have said, hence why I can still find Tessellation in play on my main machine and I can't duplicate you results. I have no DX10 machine (ATM) to test this theory on so for now I haven't brought it up because again I can't confirm it. The whole thing about theory, testing and etc is that it has to be reproducible under similar circumstances but we have different machines so my POV maybe correct because of what I can see but you can't because you don't have the same hardware. This is again something I thought about and want to prove but my parts I was expecting for my server machine is not here yet
so I have to wait to back this up.


This doesn't mean that I think I am 100% wrong because I have only been saying that I see Tessellation on High and that my hardware is DX11, but if the game is still running features on a card that they don't support like Tessellation it could be the problem with performance. Not that I don't understand that a DX10 card shouldn't run Tessellation lets get that clear, I am just worried that there is problem in the game that is keeping this feature enabled when it shouldn't. Look back to the launcher issue keeping settings on that weren't supposed to be enabled and that's where I started to think of this problem. I know it isn't 100% absolute but I have seen it in other games when it has allowed or kept features running on video cards when they shouldn't , like Splinter Cell 3.

I appreciate the info and I am thinking of this as critically as I can but there is nothing to suggest DX10 only features are being run with DX11 renderer on High and until we can't be certain until we see under the vale that is DA2. Until then we can never be sure because were all right in our small ways (with our observations and knowledge) but not all the facts fit for either side of the isle I agree to that, so just for now lets keep this as a maybe and not fact on either side of the isle.

Modifié par Kayden SiNafey, 22 mars 2011 - 03:08 .

[Withidread]

A bit of news from the Nvidia forums.

1st: "The next driver release will give better performance with DA2 over 267.59."
forums.nvidia.com/index.php


2nd: "It was pushed back to early April. For major driver releases, we generally release a beta driver followed by a minor WHQL driver update about 2 weeks later."
forums.nvidia.com/index.php


Edit: You'll probably have to scroll up one post in that first link.

Modifié par Withidread, 22 mars 2011 - 04:58 .

[TallBearNC]

I don't know what nvidia is thinking. All the 200 line of drivers are compatable with ALL their cards.. pretty much back to the 6000 line. Why they are releasing drivers for only the 550ti, the 560ti, etc is beyond me. Especially when a simple mod to the .ini file to add 3 lines will make them install on any card. Doesn't make sense. They should be putting the drivers out as beta for ALL their cards and just let people test them

[TallBearNC]

Withidread wrote...

A bit of news from the Nvidia forums.

1st: "The next driver release will give better performance with DA2 over 267.59."
forums.nvidia.com/index.php


2nd: "It was pushed back to early April. For major driver releases, we generally release a beta driver followed by a minor WHQL driver update about 2 weeks later."
forums.nvidia.com/index.php


Edit: You'll probably have to scroll up one post in that first link.

I love nvidia, but I have to give them a hard time with this.. they should have been heavily testing their drivers against DA2 in the alpha and beta stages of the game. However, I know this isn't just nvidia's fault. BW definately needs a patch to address its own DX11 renderer performance

[Kayden SiNafey]

TallBearNC wrote...
I love nvidia, but I have to give them a hard time with this.. they should have been heavily testing their drivers against DA2 in the alpha and beta stages of the game. However, I know this isn't just nvidia's fault. BW definately needs a patch to address its own DX11 renderer performance

I agree I love nvidia as well but if the devs don't give the game to test they can't do anything for end users when it comes out. Ati is plauged with problems as well but it's Biowares fault is what I'm saying they didn't give any one enough time to get there drivers in order before release, not even in house to fix the DX11 issues like you said. At least we have heard something from Nvidia on this, much more then Bioware which is very pathetic.

[MaxPayne37]

Kayden SiNafey wrote...

Here is something I did think about. That when running DX11 hardware and you go to high it is running Tessellation but not when you have DX10 hardware like you guys have said, hence why I can still find Tessellation in play on my main machine and I can't duplicate you results. I have no DX10 machine (ATM) to test this theory on so for now I haven't brought it up because again I can't confirm it. The whole thing about theory, testing and etc is that it has to be reproducible under similar circumstances but we have different machines so my POV maybe correct because of what I can see but you can't because you don't have the same hardware. This is again something I thought about and want to prove but my parts I was expecting for my server machine is not here yet
so I have to wait to back this up.


This doesn't mean that I think I am 100% wrong because I have only been saying that I see Tessellation on High and that my hardware is DX11, but if the game is still running features on a card that they don't support like Tessellation it could be the problem with performance. Not that I don't understand that a DX10 card shouldn't run Tessellation lets get that clear, I am just worried that there is problem in the game that is keeping this feature enabled when it shouldn't. Look back to the launcher issue keeping settings on that weren't supposed to be enabled and that's where I started to think of this problem. I know it isn't 100% absolute but I have seen it in other games when it has allowed or kept features running on video cards when they shouldn't , like Splinter Cell 3.

I appreciate the info and I am thinking of this as critically as I can but there is nothing to suggest DX10 only features are being run with DX11 renderer on High and until we can't be certain until we see under the vale that is DA2. Until then we can never be sure because were all right in our small ways (with our observations and knowledge) but not all the facts fit for either side of the isle I agree to that, so just for now lets keep this as a maybe and not fact on either side of the isle.

Thank you for finally admitting you couldn't test it on DX10 hardware!! That's all I wanted you to say at least.

Also, check your DA2 DragonAge.ini, do you see a tessellation value in there out of curiosity?

TallBearNC wrote...

I don't know what nvidia is thinking. All the 200 line of drivers are compatable with ALL their cards.. pretty much back to the 6000 line. Why they are releasing drivers for only the 550ti, the 560ti, etc is beyond me. Especially when a simple mod to the .ini file to add 3 lines will make them install on any card. Doesn't make sense. They should be putting the drivers out as beta for ALL their cards and just let people test them

I agree.

Modifié par MaxPayne37, 22 mars 2011 - 07:17 .

[Miriel Amarinth]

TallBearNC wrote...

I don't know what nvidia is thinking. All the 200 line of drivers are compatable with ALL their cards.. pretty much back to the 6000 line. Why they are releasing drivers for only the 550ti, the 560ti, etc is beyond me. Especially when a simple mod to the .ini file to add 3 lines will make them install on any card. Doesn't make sense. They should be putting the drivers out as beta for ALL their cards and just let people test them

I agree. Why they are delaying releasing them for other cards at least as a beta is simply beyond me. I can understand they don't want to release them as WHQL yet due to lack of testing, but the least they could do is give us a beta version now so we can start providing some official feedback on them...

Modifié par Miriel Amarinth, 22 mars 2011 - 07:23 .

[Baramon]

Well, hacked INF is as good as beta to me. It's worked in the past, so I don't have a problem with that. It's just the lack of concern on both their parts (Bioware and NVIDIA) that bothers me. I don't pre-order many games, and I have to say my taste for ever doing it again has pretty much been ruined by this whole fiasco. I'm just glad there are people willing to donate their time to getting others up and running when they could be off doing their own things. Says a lot for this community.

[Kayden SiNafey]

MaxPayne37 wrote...

Thank you for finally admitting you couldn't test it on DX10 hardware!! That's all I wanted you to say at least.

Also, check your DA2 DragonAge.ini, do you see a tessellation value in there out of curiosity?

Ok I am tired I have had a hard past few (almost being hospitalized and crap) so I know I'm not being my normal collected self at this point but really your comment came across to me as you being obnoxious and declaring victory when there is none to be had. I have never made it a secret what my hardware specs and no one else even bothered to think about it, I did and it's because I don't care if I am wrong even as long as the right answer is out there. This aggrivates me to hear ppl do things like that because it seems like your not willing to change your pov on something even if the proof was right in front of you. None the less it doesn't disprove my facts or the points I have made because even though I don't have a DX10 only card my DX11 card can run anything DX10 throws at it. The info brought to me is that DX10 is only used in DX11 renderer with High mode, none of you said it could still be running DX11 features if you have DX11 hardware NONE. I went off your info and I further thought outside the box as to why my info was contradicting the DX10 only observation with my pictures, but it doesn't disprove DX11 features maybe running on DX10 hardware in High mode if they aren't being turned off correctly based on other facts I have given, it just helps disprove the pics I posted nothing else. Also I haven't seen anyone else put out pics that close with only DX10 hardware to help your case, why is that? We have distant shots (again with some one with DX11 hardware in High so this could disprove his observatin as well) but nothing close up with DX10 only hardware, lets keeps some perspective here shall we. Finally until we can see under the vale of the DA2 we wont know for sure. Again I'm not in my element atm and I know I'm coming off pretty strong but something about that really urked me.

Just to quench your curiosity I went into DragonAge.ini under "D:\\My Documents\\BioWare\\Dragon Age 2\\Settings" (I move my Docs to another drive so I don't lose games or what ever) and there is nothing in there about Tessellation there is no variable for it to be enabled or disabled. Do you have such a setting? If you don't then this tells me a little more that there is no way to be certain that Tess is disabled when using DX11 renderer in High or Very High because it might always be on. I also went back to the Tech blog of DA2 and it says

"Tessellation is a major feature of the DirectX 11 API. Dragon Age 2 uses
tessellation on the terrain to smooth out shillouette terrain edges
that can occationally look sharp on DirectX 9."

Wouldn't this prove that DX11 is using Tessellation with the DX11 renderer unless you went to DX9? Thus supporting the idea that even on High as long as you have the DX11 renender enabled Tess is in play and it's being forced onto DX10 hardware? Just one more thing I didn't see right away.

Anyways have fun.

Modifié par Kayden SiNafey, 22 mars 2011 - 07:57 .

[foil-]

I ran high and veryhigh to try and get the tesselation up and running on the original DA2 prepatch release. Tesselation in the rocks is pretty eyepopping and definitely not being enabled on high. Its not something you have to search for. That's not to say that certain DX11 features aren't being enabled on high setting by bioware with DX10 graphics card installed in the machine. What does the graphics card recognition: DA2 or the directX. Is it possible the DX11 renderer is sending DX11 required information to a DX10 card, which just spends some gpu cycles rejecting the data that is being sent by the DX11 renderer because it can't process or understand it. I'll let the DirectX Gurus answer if that's even a possibility or not.

Anyway, this is strictly out of personal curiosity and hopefully won't reignite the debate that was going on and has thankfully run down to a slow burn. Crysis is out today so will be more interesting to keep this thread focused on driver updates for the next few days.

Modifié par foil-, 22 mars 2011 - 07:58 .

[MaxPayne37]

Kayden SiNafey wrote...

Ok I am tired I have had a hard past few (almost being hospitalized and crap) so I know I'm not being my normal collected self at this point but really your comment came across to me as you being obnoxious and declaring victory when there is none to be had. I have never made it a secret what my hardware specs and no one else even bothered to think about it, I did and it's because I don't care if I am wrong even as long as the right answer is out there. This aggrivates me to hear ppl do things like that because it seems like your not willing to change your pov on something even if the proof was right in front of you. None the less it doesn't disprove my facts or the points I have made because even though I don't have a DX10 only card my DX11 card can run anything DX10 throws at it. The info brought to me is that DX10 is only used in DX11 renderer with High mode, none of you said it could still be running DX11 features if you have DX11 hardware NONE. I went off your info and I further thought outside the box as to why my info was contradicting the DX10 only observation with my pictures, but it doesn't disprove DX11 features maybe running on DX10 hardware in High mode if they aren't being turned off correctly based on other facts I have given, it just helps disprove the pics I posted nothing else. Also I haven't seen anyone else put out pics that close with only DX10 hardware to help your case, why is that? We have distant shots but nothing close up, lets keeps some perspective here shall we. Finally until we can see under the vale of the DA2 we wont know for sure. Again I'm not in my element atm and I know I'm coming off pretty strong but something about that really urked me.

Just to quench your curiosity I went into DragonAge.ini under "D:My DocumentsBioWareDragon Age 2Settings" (I move my Docs to another drive so I don't lose games or what ever) and there is nothing in there about Tessellation there is no variable for it to be enabled or disabled. Do you have such a setting? If you don't then this tells me a little more that there is no way to be certain that Tess is disabled when using DX11 renderer in High or Very High because it might always be on. I also went back to the Tech blog of DA2 and it says

"Tessellation is a major feature of the DirectX 11 API. Dragon Age 2 uses
tessellation on the terrain to smooth out shillouette terrain edges
that can occationally look sharp on DirectX 9."

Wouldn't this prove that DX11 is using Tessellation with the DX11 renderer unless you went to DX9? Thus supporting the idea that even on High as long as you have the DX11 renender enabled Tess is in play and it's being forced onto DX10 hardware? Just one more thing I didn't see right away.

Anyways have fun.

Once again, you are testing DX10 theories on a DX11 card, so you having a DX11 card running High compared to a DX10 card running High, while contradicting the setting descriptions, could, and according to you, do have different results. As bugged as this game is already, I don't find this surprising, but don't take your DX11 card results into consideration with DX10 cards. Also, you may be confusing the high resolution texture pack for tessellation...

And no, I don't have that variable in my .ini, I was just curious if you did. Also, straight from Microsoft, if THIS doesn't tell you otherwise, definitely nothing will, and you are just being stubborn. This is irrefutable proof, finally, confirming the difference between hardware and software support.

http://blogs.msdn.co...nouncement.aspx

DirectX 11 will have better compatibility with DirectX 10 hardware than most expected. What does that mean? Yes, there is some confusion over the "11 running on 10 hw" part of the announcement.

There are parts of the new API that are hardware independent, those can indeed run downlevel. The mult-threaded resource handling, for instance, can be enabled to run on DirectX 10 class hardware if the IHVs ( ATI, Intel, nVidia ) update their DirectX 10 drivers. Think of that part of it as "11 on 10".

Then there are parts of the new API that do require new hardware support and will only run on DX11 class hardware. The hardware tesselator and Shader Model 5.0 are examples of those parts.

And again, please refer to my previous post.

MaxPayne37 wrote...

OK, again, it cannot run DX11 features on a DX10 card because they aren't there, and there isn't a form of tessellation used on DX10 cards in this game. One gets performance hits when running DX10 compared to DX9 because of the DX10 enabled features, DX11 effects don't kick in until Very High, at least for DX10 cards, which you are clearly not testing.

Compare the first set of pictures, "Graphics with DirectX ...", and you will notice that the DX9 and DX10 bricks do not have depth, but the DX11 ones do, due to tessellation, which the other modes do not have. If that isn't proof enough, I don't know what is.

http://www.pcgamesha...Adventure/Test/

Modifié par MaxPayne37, 22 mars 2011 - 08:15 .

[foil-]

MaxPayne37 wrote...

OK, again, it cannot run DX11 features on a DX10 card because they aren't there, and there isn't a form of tessellation used on DX10 cards in this game. One gets performance hits when running DX10 compared to DX9 because of the DX10 enabled features, DX11 effects don't kick in until Very High, at least for DX10 cards, which you are clearly not testing.

Compare the first set of pictures, "Graphics with DirectX ...", and you will notice that the DX9 and DX10 bricks do not have depth, but the DX11 ones do, due to tessellation, which the other modes do not have. If that isn't proof enough, I don't know what is.

http://www.pcgamesha...Adventure/Test/

Not sure if that was in response to my question or not, but if so, I was wondering if it was possible for the renderer to send DX11 information to a DX10 card, not wether the DX10 card can process it.  Can you send the information (i.e., amount of tesselation, etc.) to a DX10 card only to have the DX10 card look at the data being sent, not understand it, and reject it.  And if so, is it possible for this to slow down the graphics card as it continually rejects bad data it can not process.

[MaxPayne37]

foil- wrote...

MaxPayne37 wrote...

OK, again, it cannot run DX11 features on a DX10 card because they aren't there, and there isn't a form of tessellation used on DX10 cards in this game. One gets performance hits when running DX10 compared to DX9 because of the DX10 enabled features, DX11 effects don't kick in until Very High, at least for DX10 cards, which you are clearly not testing.

Compare the first set of pictures, "Graphics with DirectX ...", and you will notice that the DX9 and DX10 bricks do not have depth, but the DX11 ones do, due to tessellation, which the other modes do not have. If that isn't proof enough, I don't know what is.

http://www.pcgamesha...Adventure/Test/

Not sure if that was in response to my question or not, but if so, I was wondering if it was possible for the renderer to send DX11 information to a DX10 card, not wether the DX10 card can process it.  Can you send the information (i.e., amount of tesselation, etc.) to a DX10 card only to have the DX10 card look at the data being sent, not understand it, and reject it.  And if so, is it possible for this to slow down the graphics card as it continually rejects bad data it can not process.

No, even if you force it, based off other DX11 games and benchmarks that other people have tried to get working to the same degree on DX10 hardware.

On a side note, this huge thread is finally unstickied

Modifié par MaxPayne37, 22 mars 2011 - 08:51 .

[foil-]

MaxPayne37 wrote...

foil- wrote...

MaxPayne37 wrote...

OK, again, it cannot run DX11 features on a DX10 card because they aren't there, and there isn't a form of tessellation used on DX10 cards in this game. One gets performance hits when running DX10 compared to DX9 because of the DX10 enabled features, DX11 effects don't kick in until Very High, at least for DX10 cards, which you are clearly not testing.

Compare the first set of pictures, "Graphics with DirectX ...", and you will notice that the DX9 and DX10 bricks do not have depth, but the DX11 ones do, due to tessellation, which the other modes do not have. If that isn't proof enough, I don't know what is.

http://www.pcgamesha...Adventure/Test/

Not sure if that was in response to my question or not, but if so, I was wondering if it was possible for the renderer to send DX11 information to a DX10 card, not wether the DX10 card can process it.  Can you send the information (i.e., amount of tesselation, etc.) to a DX10 card only to have the DX10 card look at the data being sent, not understand it, and reject it.  And if so, is it possible for this to slow down the graphics card as it continually rejects bad data it can not process.

No, even if you force it, based off other DX11 games and benchmarks that other people have tried to get working to the same degree on DX10 hardware.

On a side note, this huge thread is finally unstickied

Sorry, I'm not asking if you can force the DX10 card to emulate DX11 features.  I'm just wondering if its possible to send a DX10 card DX11 data.  That data wouldn't be accepted by the DX10 hardware since as has been said, there is no possible way for a DX10 card to run DX11 features.  But it would still have to take the data being handed to it and reject it.  Unless its not even possible to send DX11 data to non DX11 hardware.

An anology would be, could you send DX11 data to your soundcard, only to have the soundcard not understand what is being sent to it and either freeze up or reject the data.

Modifié par foil-, 22 mars 2011 - 08:57 .

[JamesX]

Graphic cards are handled via API, there is no DirectX 10 Cards cannot handle DirectX 11 API. Not sure what you are asking.

So yes a program can try to send API calls that are DirectX11 based, but a DirectX10 cards will simply not recognize them. Whether this will cause an Exception (and possibly crash if it not caught) or whether the API itself will simply reject DirectX11 calls I have no idea.

As for those with OC Cards that are crashing.  Goto the Support forum for your specific card and see if you need to raise the VCore Voltage.  I had to go from 1000 (default) to 1025mv on my MSI Twin Frzor II 580 OC.  Which is what MSI Recommended on their official support forum.  Do not do this if you don't know what you are doing and/or without confirming with your manufacturer's support forum.

Modifié par JamesX, 22 mars 2011 - 09:05 .

[foil-]

JamesX wrote...

Graphic cards are handled via API, there is no DirectX 10 Cards cannot handle DirectX 11 API. Not sure what you are asking.

So yes a program can try to send API calls that are DirectX11 based, but a DirectX10 cards will simply not recognize them. Whether this will cause an Exception (and possibly crash if it not caught) or whether the API itself will simply reject DirectX11 calls I have no idea.

As for those with OC Cards that are crashing.  Goto the Support forum for your specific card and see if you need to raise the VCore Voltage.  I had to go from 1000 (default) to 1025mv on my MSI Twin Frzor II 580 OC.

Yes, that's essentially what I was asking.  But its probably something only the engineers could answer.  Its interesting to think that maybe there is a possibility of these type of mistakes in programming slowing down hardware, not from the graphic cards attempt to output any data, but rather from the process of rejecting the data being sent to it or choking on the data it doesn't understand how to process.

Modifié par foil-, 22 mars 2011 - 09:09 .

[MaxPayne37]

foil- wrote...

Unless its not even possible to send DX11 data to non DX11 hardware.

Exactly. There is no performance loss from DX11 hardware calls sent to DX10 hardware, because it doesn't happen, and even if it did, it would just be ignored, not even looked at, cause the necessary instructions aren't there.

Modifié par MaxPayne37, 22 mars 2011 - 09:12 .

[Pauravi]

Hate to intrude on the DX10/11 argument, but I wanted to see if anyone was having the same issue as I am with the Catalyst 11.4 drivers.

It seems I am unable to install them under Windows 7 32-bit. Running the installer gives me a message in the log that driver installation failed and that the Windows version is not supported. Trying to manually install them by updating the driver from the device manager and pointing them to the directory that the installer extracted to results in Windows telling me that the driver is already updated, even though it is still running 11.2. I have taken these steps both before and after uninstalling the 11.2 drivers.

I apologize if this has been discussed, I only skimmed the 50 pages that this thread entails.

Edit: I am running an HD 5770 if that matters, although my understanding was that the driver supported all GPUs.

Modifié par Pauravi, 22 mars 2011 - 11:57 .

[foil-]

I know this sounds silly, but maybe you downloaded an XP version or 64win7 version. I'm sure you checked that in your trouble shooting, but why not take a look at the file name. Or maybe a corrupted download and you need to redownload. Can also try drive sweeper to clean out your old driver installations in case something is not letting go : http://www.guru3d.co.../driversweeper/

And don't you dare interrupt our off-topic discussion again...how rude!

[TallBearNC]

Kayden SiNafey wrote...

BTCentral wrote...
You are correct actually, I apologise - my mistake the box shows the editions EVGA offer, though they are not all available for that specific card. The site I referenced was actually incorrect.

Thanks I appreciate that.

Daedalus51 wrote...

just to bring this discussion "maybe"
to an end....I found this on a very well known german hardware site:
http://www.pcgamesha...Adventure/Test/

Go and check out the pics with the comparisons.

@Kaiden,
I do only have a gtx285 and Iam running the game in dx11 (that only
enables dx10 fx on my card) and I use the 267.59 driver with a modded
.inf and you know what? It runs perfectly smooth on 1920x1080, 4x AA,
16x AF settings on high and the highrez textures activated. Yes I do
have soft shadows, but these are normal soft shadows from dx10, not the
contact hardened soft shadows dx11 supports, I dont have any
tesselation, because as you can se on the screenshots I provided its not
possible with dx10 cards (whitch are the effects that are supported
with dx10 cards in dx11 rendering mode).

And now....only to be complete...there is ONE WAY....to get Tesselation on even graphiccards that only support dx9!!!

BUT....not
with Dragon Age 2. Tesselation is a technique that was also well known
via OpenGL Extensions 3 years ago . And that Tesselation can only be
used on dx11 hardware is not true....but it is true that it can only be
used in dx11 because the other versions of directx wont support it. But
Tesselation is nothing new and was well known before dx11 came, just
only by the OpenGL guys and sadly, they never made it to get really big
in the business.

Here is something I did think about. That when running DX11 hardware and you go to high it is running Tessellation but not when you have DX10 hardware like you guys have said, hence why I can still find Tessellation in play on my main machine and I can't duplicate you results. I have no DX10 machine (ATM) to test this theory on so for now I haven't brought it up because again I can't confirm it. The whole thing about theory, testing and etc is that it has to be reproducible under similar circumstances but we have different machines so my POV maybe correct because of what I can see but you can't because you don't have the same hardware. This is again something I thought about and want to prove but my parts I was expecting for my server machine is not here yet
so I have to wait to back this up.


This doesn't mean that I think I am 100% wrong because I have only been saying that I see Tessellation on High and that my hardware is DX11, but if the game is still running features on a card that they don't support like Tessellation it could be the problem with performance. Not that I don't understand that a DX10 card shouldn't run Tessellation lets get that clear, I am just worried that there is problem in the game that is keeping this feature enabled when it shouldn't. Look back to the launcher issue keeping settings on that weren't supposed to be enabled and that's where I started to think of this problem. I know it isn't 100% absolute but I have seen it in other games when it has allowed or kept features running on video cards when they shouldn't , like Splinter Cell 3.

I appreciate the info and I am thinking of this as critically as I can but there is nothing to suggest DX10 only features are being run with DX11 renderer on High and until we can't be certain until we see under the vale that is DA2. Until then we can never be sure because were all right in our small ways (with our observations and knowledge) but not all the facts fit for either side of the isle I agree to that, so just for now lets keep this as a maybe and not fact on either side of the isle.

I've used nvidia development toold and there is NO tessaltion running on "high" in DA2, but it does kick in on "very high"

Don't get me wrong. I know we disagree on things, and you are going purely from an obervational standpoint, but I am using developer tools that can tell me EXACTLY whats going on. I have Visual Studio 2010 on my machine along with various nvidia testing and programming tools. That's what I've been trying to say all along. It's not physically on at all on the high setting. However, the game does use DX10.1 features on high.

I can easily run a game and view it in Wireframe only... or run a game and view each texture in detail.. see what DX features are being applied, etc, etc.. granted it's not as good as using source code, but it works well enough.

Plus I can take a screenshot of  screen on high with a dx11 card, switch to very high, screenshot.. then put both scenes up on each of my monitors and clearly see the difference between the two.

I have also put in my 2, old 8800s and also verified with development and testing tools just what is running on each mode on a DX 10 card (those cards aren't even a 10.1 card)

I also tested the game on my 2 old GTS 250s (10.1 cards)

TBH this thread is about *help* people - not debating what is and isn't used in various game modes and cards. Many of us have been guilty about bogging this thread down.

TBH, maybe there should be a card dedicated to the debate of whats going on in the various details levels on DX 10, 10.1 and 11 cards

But I'll be frank. I have access to a whole suite of tools that cost 1000s and 1000s of dollars that most gamers do not have access to. By using these tools, I can easily say what *exactly* is being run on DX 10, 10.1 and 11 *nvidia* brand cards at the various detail levels.

Lasty, keep in mind the game's DX11 rendering engine has some issues, be it rendering full DX 11 content or DX10 content on DX10 and 11 cards on the high settings. Plus nvidia and ati still need new drivers. I think once both of those are fixed, we won't see an issue.

Modifié par TallBearNC, 23 mars 2011 - 01:06 .

[Kayden SiNafey]

Okay guys I got the offical word from Bioware from Luke Barret to who'm I have been PM! You are not going to believe this WE ARE ALL RIGHT and a little wrong here's what he has to say.

Luke Barrett
12:20 PM 2011-03-22

Alright, here is the answer(s) I got (melted in to one response):

With dx10 hardware the very high setting should be disabled
preventing the dx11 features like teselation from being enabled. There
are [however] some inconsistencies if you edit the ini file manually:



On my DX11 card I was able to enable everything in very high, then
exit the game, and change settings to GraphicsDetailLevel=2 in the ini
file. When I restarted, Diffusion DOF was on even though I was not in
very high mode. (until I opened the settings window, which fixed it)



So, I expect, if you turn on diffusion dof and high quality blur in
the ini file and you have a dx10 card, it will actually turn on in game.

However, Tesselation, and other “Very High” features than those two extra checkboxes will not turn on on a DX10 card.



Ie:

EnableHighQualityBlur=1

EnableDiffusionDOF=1

In the ini file will make a dx 10 card run slower.

GraphicsDetailLevel=3

Will do nothing

If you give me a link to that thread I'll happily flex my Bioware
tag with this response. Hopefully it will clear things up a bit.

I was saying that DX11 features could be turned on and that is was more then likely Tessellation was causing the problem for poor FPS, well I was wrong about the Tessellation. However, by the same token so were you guys saying that none of the DX11 features could be turned on with a DX10 card which they said they could under the right circumstances. This would also mean Tess might have still been enabled when I went to High and the same could be said for your guys pics.

You guys remember me telling you ppl had features enabled when they shouldn't have been? Well this is what lead me down this path and left me with such a hard line because I could do it myself.

I am very glad we got this answer back because now we all now know it is indeed possible to turn on DX11 features on a DX10 card and cause performance issues and advocate for ppl to change their settings in game and not through the launcher or the ini anymore or it could put them in these situations.

I appreciate all of your guys input we did butt head and get something accomplished to get ppl the right the answer and I know it has been rocky but in the end we were all right how often does that happen?


EDIT: I did send Luke the info about the thread and etc so some one should post here like he said. Also if you want me to take a screen shot and post it I will,  just in case there is any skepticism in the crowd.

Modifié par Kayden SiNafey, 23 mars 2011 - 01:21 .