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Neutral Morality - Completely Broken?


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#1
Guest_Genome256_*

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As we all know, the morality system in Mass Effect 2 isn't perfect. Not playing a mostly paragon or mostly renegade playthrough means that you will not have the necessary amount of points for paragon/renegade dialogue later on in the game, which results in having less points, which results in even less dialogue options -- it forms a snowball effect which affects your ability to resolve the big conflicts further in the game.

From my understanding, whether or not you can use a paragon or dialogue option depends on a percentage: the total amount of paragon/renegade points divided by the total amount of those points you COULD have had (throughout your game) up until that point. This means if you skip or miss parts of a level which give you paragon or renegade points, you will be less likely to initiate certain dialogue options later on, which makes no sense really.

Picking a neutral dialogue option is thus the same as missing paragon or renegade choices. You get no points for either path, but your morality percentage goes down for both, which has obvious repurcussions. Is there any reason to choose neutral dialogue then, besides for role playing reasons? It will hurt you in the long run (though you can just edit your save and give yourself max paragon / renegade to avoid this system altogether). The system just seems so... broken.

Also, for the action events that give you ONLY renegade or paragon points (for example, hurting a certain man repairing a gunship, which gives renegade, or shooting a mech with Archangel's sniper rifle), is there a reason NOT to do them? If you don't do them, your percentage goes down for no gains at all - the same issue as being neutral.

Hopefully the entire paragon / renegade system is revamped for ME3, or completely removed with the morality being more like DA:O.

PS. I might be wrong in certain parts. For example, perhaps picking a neutral option completely bypasses the "total possible paragon/renegade points" system, and doesn't decrease your morality percentage at all? I think otherwise, though.

Modifié par Genome256, 09 mars 2011 - 12:38 .


#2
Whatever42

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You'll find that even the most enthusiastic fanboys agree with you here. Most people find the reputation minigame annoying and complain that it interferes with their roleplaying. I don't mind it, its easy to game, but I certainly wouldn't complain if they revamped it. Don't expect a DA relationship system, though.

That said, you should try a game without the magic red/blue text. Some of the dialogue and actions that occur if you don't sweet talk your way through things is awesome.

#3
JoeClose

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Modifié par JoeClose, 09 mars 2011 - 03:23 .


#4
JoeClose

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Rather than the current system, I'd like to see the red/blue text disappear entirely and just be white text like everything else, just another choice. You can talk your way out, you can intimidate your way out etc, the choice should just be there and open to use in any situation rather than being limited.

The options should just be there for any player to choose, rather than be limited by points put into a skill or by how many previous choices you made along the same alignment

I don't want to see the Paragon/Renegade meters disappear however. With this new system the Paragon/Renegade meters would be there solely for the purpose of tracking the morality of your decisions, nothing more.

#5
The Spamming Troll

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sucks because neutral is the best path. i really never understood why a story has to be written as paragon AND renegade. why cant i just make decisions and not worry about what path im taking? i dont need a bar telling me how nice ive been.

#6
Fat Headed Wolf

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Agreed.

I think it should totally be revamped. Or, at the very least, give us a ME1-like "Persuade" skill. Invest in said skill to either Charm or Intimidate (depending on whichever--Paragon or Renegade-- is higher).

#7
Slayer299

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The P/R system *has* to be revamped, I'm 3/4 through a playthrough right now and my femShep has got a 68%Para/ 41%Ren and it leaves me screwed for the conflicts on board the Normandy and all the other dialogue options. There shouldn't be a reason to punish players for not choosing 100% either through out the game.

I really want something like the ME1 Charm/Intimidate skills brought back, where conversations were based on those and not your Para/Ren overall Para/Ren scores, but keep the interrupts.

#8
AlanC9

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Being screwed for the Normandy confrontations isn't necessarily a bad thing -- I found the SM was a lot more interesting when I didn't have everybody loyal.

But yes, the ME2 system blows. It interferes with some valid RP choices without doing anything useful.

#9
ifander

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I'd agree that the morality system should be tweaked. It should allow for a greater deviation from pure paragon/renegade. Perhaps give players a few points o both when choosing a neutral option? The resoning now seems to be that a neutral character is less persuasive for some reason, but the way I see it a good mediator is one who doesn't pick sides but stays objective. In Fallout 3 there was even a perk (don't remember what it was called) which gave you a sizable bonus to speech if you stayed morally neutral.

#10
MajorStranger

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The game should be like DA and not have any morality scale at all.

#11
The Shadow Broker

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I love the intimidation-coercion situations to get out of some situations. The better solution would be had more than paragon or renegade dialogue options, and make em also be able to get out of certain situations, or get discounts.

DA2 has a funny version too, wich is step forward. Would be cool to have paragon, funny, neutral, badass(serious dont toy with me like answers) and maybe violent(renegade but more menacing yet)
example, renegade= enough!
menace=(pointing with the gun) shut up!

#12
InvincibleHero

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Why exactly would be middle of the road and kinda wishy washy lead to you having a more forceful personality? This is what it truly means.

A full paragon is very virtuous and upstanding and opinionated righting what they perceive to be wrongs. Can persuede people to see their viewpoint.

A renegade has that brusque don't mess with me allure. They shout and make sure they get their way. A ren Shepard does whatever to intimidate and cow people into getting what he/she wants.

#13
CroGamer002

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#14
Ulzeraj

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The Spamming Troll wrote...

sucks because neutral is the best path. i really never understood why a story has to be written as paragon AND renegade. why cant i just make decisions and not worry about what path im taking? i dont need a bar telling me how nice ive been.


Nah neutral doesn't seem to be a viable "path". I only use neutral to speak to renegade-oriented characters like Grunt or when the Paragon action just makes me cringe (like shep screaming to stop mind controlling the rachni messenger).

#15
Wulfram

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It's not too bad if you've imported from ME1

#16
Whereto

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Maybe they need to include a neutral meter. And some neutral dialogue options that u have to build up to get

#17
MegaRekyyli

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When importing a ME1 character, my character had 100% paragon and 45% renegade when I finished the game. I made the kind of choices I would've made, I didn't worry about what path I took.

#18
ajburges

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Tis why I like gibbed's save editor. Add ~500 point each and I can RP how I want through a play-through.

Also alows me to re-apply morality boosts on a new game+

Modifié par ajburges, 09 mars 2011 - 11:54 .


#19
A.J. Ross

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ajburges wrote...

Tis why I like gibbed's save editor. Add ~500 point each and I can RP how I want through a play-through.

Also alows me to re-apply morality boosts on a new game+

You're such a renegade.

#20
apotheosic

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Yeah, I liked the system in ME1 better; I played a mostly paragon ruthless character, but I put all my points into intimidate, because he wasn't a person who was going to sweet-talk people to his side, but he wasn't necessarily a bad guy either. ME2 didn't give me that option. It's either be renegade or be paragon, no middle ground. Well, of course, you CAN be neutral, but the game practically punishes you for it.
Overall a system like ME1 or DA:O would be best.

#21
michaelius_pl

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It probably carries from Kotor legacy where it made sense. For Mass Effect much better solution would be separate reputations for different people/smaller factions like in Alpha Protocol.

#22
Slayer299

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@Wulfram - It makes no difference if you import from ME1 (which I do all the time). I'm not playing a neutral char, but RP'g her as she is, which is a Paragade and you get punished for not choosing one side and sticking to it.

Games aren't supposed to punish players for RP'g in a RPG.

#23
DarthSliver

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I agree with OP, you get punished for Roleplaying in a RPG with the current system. I felt I had to go either or and not choose the options i desired just so i could get everyone to survive too. I enjoy having everyone survive at the end.

#24
The Spamming Troll

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Ulzeraj wrote...

The Spamming Troll wrote...

sucks because neutral is the best path. i really never understood why a story has to be written as paragon AND renegade. why cant i just make decisions and not worry about what path im taking? i dont need a bar telling me how nice ive been.


Nah neutral doesn't seem to be a viable "path". I only use neutral to speak to renegade-oriented characters like Grunt or when the Paragon action just makes me cringe (like shep screaming to stop mind controlling the rachni messenger).


well i really meant "neutral" as in playing a mixture of paragon and renegade, not just always choosing the middle option. i guess i should have said playing as a pargade. it seems like alot of people play 75/25 one way or the other, which only hurts the potential of your character.

i dont know why there isnt just a "fame" type thing instead of either being good or bad. i never really understood the point of having to be either good or bad anyways. if you want to get what you want ot get, ME2 forces you to play 100% one way or the other, which is for lack of a better word, stupid.

#25
shep82

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I must be in the minority who like it as is. I hope they don't touch it because I prefer to play one way each time. Renegade and Paragon on separate playthroughs like they intend.