71 réponses à ce sujet

[Shannara13]

Spaghetti_Ninja wrote...

Nathan Pinard wrote...

Fallout 3 and Oblivion were badly designed non-linear games.

Baldur's Gate is probably the best by far (or BG2) Fallout 1 in some cases as well.

Except, of course, that Baldur's Gate 1 & 2 were linear as hell.

Case in point: Athkatla -> Thieves Guild/Bodhi -> Asylum -> (Underwater City) -> Underdark -> Suldanesselar -> Hell

Yes, you also had a bunch of sidequests like Kill Firkraag and The Planar Sphere, but really, the game was railroad as hell when it came to the core storyline.

Indeed which is one of the reasons I still prefer BG2 over DA:O. There was a definite sense of progression in BG2 that I find lacking in DA:O.

Don't get me wrong, I am not saying I didn't like DA:O. I did and I probably will beat the game several times to try out different things but it won't be a game like BG 1/2 that I still play 10 years later.

[Sylvius the Mad]

BG2 was significantly more linear than BG, which is why I prefer BG.

DAO appears to sit somewhere in between, so it's less linear than I feared. I'm very happy with it.

[CraigCWB]

A video game will never be able to do this until actual AI, or until the story is facilitated by an actual DM somewhere online. Every game, no matter how much freedom you have, is confined to the possibilities programmed into it.



Of course it is. My point is that Bioware games have very few possibilities programmed into them. And that's deliberate. Some people may like that. I don't. I want the storytelling retained (Bioware is really good at that!) but I want more freedom to do my own thing if I want to as well. How much better would Mass Effect have been if you could engage in random ship combat/boarding for instance? Or if you could actually explore random planets and find some randomly generated locations and encounters? It wouldn't have been difficult for Bioware to support that. But instead they chose to make a very short game that forced people along a pre-defined story arc until the end game. And then rewarded people for REPLAYING the exact same content, over and over again. I don't replay games. I want the first run through to provide me with all the content I choose to engage in. A fusion of Bioware's recipe with Bethesda's recipe would be pretty much ideal for me. It could be done.

[Wolff Laarcen]

CraigCWB wrote...
I don't replay games. I want the first run through to provide me with all the content I choose to engage in.

This is a good point; the best reason to replay a game after the first time is if you are able to do something entirely different or if you have the freedom to play a certain aspect of it however you want - and you dont get that with linear games.

I'm having a tough time with DAO right now on my 2nd playthrough because I'm wanting to fight some battles to test out certain specs and group combinations without progressing the plot, just because I enjoy the fights and the tactics system.  Sadly there is no almost allowance for that type of play at all.

Modifié par Wolff Laarcen, 15 novembre 2009 - 11:34 .

[marshalleck]

Given time I am sure random encounters will be modded into the game. It would be nice if the combat scenarios were more common. I get sick of encountering that dwarf merchant.

[Bryy_Miller]

Periodiko wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Periodiko wrote...

Who cares about "storytelling" when you can have storymaking - games are an interactive medium. Games should exploit that. 

"Storymaking" makes no sense. If you don't enjoy linear plots in RPGs, just say so. Don't try to justify it with words that are meaningless.

I don't think the difference between telling a story and making a story is really that confusing.

I mean, if we're going to talk about fuzzy words, "storytelling" as being used just as ambiguously.

Okay, let's change concepts around a bit.
Let's replace storytelling with plot and storymaking with plotmaking.

Yeah.
No sense.

[GhostandthaDark]

Shannara13 wrote...

In my opinion a lack of linearity in the main story line is a bad thing. The fact that I can complete any of the 4 main objectives in any order does nothing for me except remove the feeling of forward progression. I mean if you are on the 4th objective everyone in the game acts the same as if it was the first objective you completed. No one recognizes any of your acomplishments for having done the other 3 things. Right now it feels like the game progresses from the start to the completion of your first objective then it stops progressing until landsmeet when it starts progressing again.

My opinion on this subject is this: Linearity has become a bad aspect of game design because we live in a society that has the attention span of a gnat.  Now this is a generalization and may be considered wrong, inaccurate or unfair, but...  To be realistic and honest, people don't read books as they once did, children use their imaginations less and less, music and art programs are cut constantly from educational programs and everyone is going to school to persue money, not their passions.  So, this a big picture view of it, but in my opinion openworld, non-linear story telling is good for the game "industry", not necessarily for gamers because most people want disposable action, stories and characters.  If too much personality is infused to a story then the ADD driven masses will feel they can relate less, because they simply aren't in control...  Sad really.  I'm for both, openworld and linear gameplay and I think that each can serve a useful role.

[tinfish]

MBirkhofer wrote...

Its not depending on the game.

One of key components of Mass Effect is the storyline is MUCH more streamlined then here in Dragonage, or Fallout.
This allows them to tell a much more focused and compelling storyline for that. While the meandering of DA, tells more localized ones, although there is still a centralized story.

Play Mass Effect and Mass Effect 2 coming in January.

I thought Mass Effect was fairly linear, however it was also outstanding.

Dragon age is in my opinion far less linear, and no less enjoyable.

It is really not something that concerns me about either game.

If you look at something like Dues Ex, a fairly linear game, with a lot of free form movement allowed through the levels, and something like modern warfare 2, wich is also linear, and may aswell be an "on rails" shooter, then it becomes a concern.

Dues Ex, allows me to go about my buisness my own way, however i will always arrive at the same destination, like in DA: O and ME.

Modern Warfare might aswell be a movie, i always must follow the same path, to the same ends.

Linearity when well done, is not a bad thing. and ME and to a lesser extent DA, got it spot on.

[Wolff Laarcen]

GhostandthaDark wrote...
... Linearity has become a bad aspect of game design because we live in a society that has the attention span of a gnat... people don't read books as they once did, children use their imaginations less and less, music and art programs are cut constantly from educational programs and everyone is going to school to persue money, not their passions.

I dont know that dislike of linear gameplay by SOME gamers has anything to do with the values society at large; i believe thats an overstatement.

GhostandthaDark wrote...
... openworld, non-linear story telling is good for the game "industry", not necessarily for gamers because most people want disposable action, stories and characters.  If too much personality is infused to a story then the ADD driven masses will feel they can relate less, because they simply aren't in control...

Again, I'm not sure where youre coming from with these statements about ADD and sweeping generalizations about people's desire for control; are we discussing the same thing?

With a linear game and a predictable story, after the first time through the only thing bringing you back for subsequent playthroughs is the gameplay itself:  The controls, the mechanics, features and the synergy between game elements.  You KNOW how the story will play out, so is playing through it again really so entertaining?  No, unless you have some open-world options to change up the monotony of that linear storyline.

Yes, i DEFINITELY want disposable action, stories and characters after my first time through the game, simply because I've already seen it.

Modifié par Wolff Laarcen, 16 novembre 2009 - 12:00 .

[Periodiko]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Okay, let's change concepts around a bit.
Let's replace storytelling with plot and storymaking with plotmaking.

Yeah.
No sense.

Yes, when you arbitrarily change words into completely different other words, things make a lot less sense, you're a sharp one.

Do you really not understand the difference between having a story told to you and making one of your own? Is this concept just completely opaque to you for some reason?

[Skemte]

This game in my mind is no where near the linear gameplay I witnessed in Neverwinter Nights 2.. For that I am thankful.

[addiction21]

Periodiko wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Okay, let's change concepts around a bit.
Let's replace storytelling with plot and storymaking with plotmaking.

Yeah.
No sense.

Yes, when you arbitrarily change words into completely different other words, things make a lot less sense, you're a sharp one.

Do you really not understand the difference between having a story told to you and making one of your own? Is this concept just completely opaque to you for some reason?

I just changed everything you said into waffles and it was good.

[Shannara13]

addiction21 wrote...

Periodiko wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Okay, let's change concepts around a bit.
Let's replace storytelling with plot and storymaking with plotmaking.

Yeah.
No sense.

Yes, when you arbitrarily change words into completely different other words, things make a lot less sense, you're a sharp one.

Do you really not understand the difference between having a story told to you and making one of your own? Is this concept just completely opaque to you for some reason?

I just changed everything you said into waffles and it was good.

Waffles are bad, French Toast is much better.

[addiction21]

Shannara13 wrote...

addiction21 wrote...

Periodiko wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

Okay, let's change concepts around a bit.
Let's replace storytelling with plot and storymaking with plotmaking.

Yeah.
No sense.

Yes, when you arbitrarily change words into completely different other words, things make a lot less sense, you're a sharp one.

Do you really not understand the difference between having a story told to you and making one of your own? Is this concept just completely opaque to you for some reason?

I just changed everything you said into waffles and it was good.

Waffles are bad, French Toast is much better.

You know what...

[Socratatus]

"Why does everyone think linearity is a bad thing?"



Because non linear games are FREEDOM. They create their own story, YOUR story. Only children need to be led by the hand from one plot to another.



Sheesh.

[DM Veil]

There's no problem with it in my mind, I rather enjoy them and treat them as visual novels that I get to interact with. I guess if you don't like being told a story then you wouldn't like them, but then I'd have to ask why you even bother buying the game in the first place.

[Kiya_Elle]

I love having the freedom to explore, to talk to NPC's, listen to rumours and pick up interesting sidequests - some of which will give you information about the world you are playing, or other kinds of rewards that you would not have found otherwise.  It's all about having the freedom to choose - Who will I help?  Who will I betray?  Which factions would my character decide to support and why?  How will the choices my character makes now influence future actions?  Playing through the game again and finding something fun that I missed the first time through.  It all combines for a rich gaming experience.  I wouldn't have it any other way.

Linear games become increadibly boring for me very quickly.  :happy:

[ScreamingPalm]

In a word... Replayability.

I don't have DA yet, but I have to admit that I'm generally not a big fan of linear games. The reasons people say they like linearity is even more reason why I don't. A movie? I've already seen it. A book? I've already read it. Some people can watch a movie 20 times, after I've seen it once I'm done with it. Stories are great, but are a one time thing for me.

A big reason I am looking forward to Diablo 3 is for the random quests, different every time you play it.

And yes I have donned my flameproof gear and will now duck and run lol.

Modifié par ScreamingPalm, 16 novembre 2009 - 04:21 .

[Thunderfox]

He ironically he got finished talk about post-modern sctructure ion my LUt class, and Linearity vs non-linearity was a main point.



I agree with the middle ground people.Some freedom of choice and movement, but all those choice snowball along a path

[BluesMan1956]

I think linearity has it's merits especially when the story is very story driven. Sandbox games tend to have a light story since they don't force you down a particular path and trying to impose a heavy story on a sandbox world is kind of a conundrum. Both types of games have their merits. It really depends on what you want out of a game when you sit down to play.



If you want a story, get ready for some sort of linear play

[ScreamingPalm]

Skemte wrote...

This game in my mind is no where near the linear gameplay I witnessed in Neverwinter Nights 2.. For that I am thankful.

Multiplayer in NWN is what really shined. Persistant worlds where you could create your own stories and where your imagination was the limit. I was always amazed at the creativity and artistic passion roleplayers could put into their characters and DM's put into their worlds and stories. Works of art really. 

Just IMO.

Modifié par ScreamingPalm, 16 novembre 2009 - 04:42 .

[macayle]

ThisGameIsbugged wrote...

IMO, the story could have used a little more linearity. The story needed some kind of climax point near the middle. Perhaps they could have made Loathering into a castle and after after completing 2 of the 4 main questlines have a massive darkspawn battle there, instead of just having it appear as a skull and crossbones on your map all of a sudden. This would help make the darkspawn seem like more of a threat, as you never really see them organized except at the very beginning and the very end of the game.

that was one of the resaons vanguard look so promissing.  They intended to have GM's playing a few of the npcs  and some of the Players do the same ( selected through the guide program)  to make it a bit more interactive with regards to players and npcs.  Sadly they never happened