95 réponses à ce sujet

[Wolff Laarcen]

Gike987 wrote...
I actually like the vague ability descriptions and the lack of combat log. First it makes it harder to min/max which is good and makes the game more challenging...  It also adds to immersion

/facepalm

So you LIKE not being able to make informed decisions about your character, based on numerical data?  You prefer blindly guessing at a given talent's usefulness or efficiency because of 'immersion'?  Sounds like youre immersing yourself in a hot tub of BS.

Gike987 wrote...
in real life (if magic existed) you wouldn't know that
throwing an fireball would deal X points of damage, but you would know
that it deals major damage.

Sure you would; you'd be able to quantify both the force of your elemental attack and your target's ability to resist or withstand it - because its MAGIC.  Magicians know things like that.

Modifié par Wolff Laarcen, 15 novembre 2009 - 11:29 .

[danielkx]

zesban wrote...

- If I have to pay to get it danielkx I will. I agree, it would be nice if I didn't have to, but the fact is if I can convince them to develop it with a cash payment, and otherwise there is no way to get them to make it, then cash payment it is.

Really? So not only have you convinced them to provide a combat log for $5 extra, you have also convinced them that people are more than willing to pay extra for features that should without question been a part of the game originally. Now all they have to do is not include certain basic features because they know gamers are more than willing to fork over the money and buy it as DLC.

When I say you, I am refering to you and others like you.

You need to think about this in terms of gaming in general, and not just for the specific content/feature that you want for this specific game.

[mrofni]

They do need to add the feature. It should have been in the game already, but this thread does serve a purpose, if they ever bother reading it. It shows that people want it. Such a feature is also useful because it allows the community to help find bugs for combat the developers might have missed, and there always are. If anything, it should be free because it helps us find bugs for them, doing part of their work for them.

[zesban]

If you like the vagueness, then just don't turn it on. I'm not saying that every single person who purchased the game now be required to shell out $5 and turn on the bloody thing or be dragged in to the night by the BioWare Gestapo. Besides, they'll be busy forcing everyone to roll Jedi in The Old Republic online. ::rimshot::

[Wolff Laarcen]

zesban wrote...
Besides, they'll be busy forcing everyone to roll Jedi in The Old Republic online. ::rimshot::

Hrm, how did i not notice the BioWare name on that...

[Voltcation]

Wolff Laarcen wrote...

Gike987 wrote...
I actually like the vague ability descriptions and the lack of combat log. First it makes it harder to min/max which is good and makes the game more challenging...  It also adds to immersion

/facepalm

So you LIKE not being able to make informed decisions about your character, based on numerical data?  You prefer blindly guessing at a given talent's usefulness or efficiency because of 'immersion'?  Sounds like youre immersing yourself in a hot tub of BS.

Gike987 wrote...
in real life (if magic existed) you wouldn't know that
throwing an fireball would deal X points of damage, but you would know
that it deals major damage.

Sure you would; you'd be able to quantify both the force of your elemental attack and your target's ability to resist or withstand it - because its MAGIC.  Magicians know things like that.

You know enough to not blindly guessing you know if an ability will deal major damage or if it has any special functions. The only thing numerical data is good for is to min/max your character and you won't need that on an normal playthrough.

[zesban]

What is this, some philosophical discussion on the morale and social responsibility of gamers as a consumer force and their role in the direction of the industry? Sounds like a panel for E3, not a topic for a feedback forum.



I'm here to provide feedback on the game I've purchased. Seems relevant. I'm not looking to solve the problems of an industry that might be moving toward an addiction based profit model. If you think it's wrong or immoral for consumers to ask for new products and state their willingness to purchase said products because of the effect it could have on the profit model of the businesses they're making their requests of then please by all means write your congress-person and get a law passed.



Until then I'm waving my $5 in the air and hoping BioWare notices.

[danielkx]

Gike987 wrote...
You know enough to not blindly guessing you know if an ability will deal major damage or if it has any special functions. The only thing numerical data is good for is to min/max your character and you won't need that on an normal playthrough.

You are trying to tell me that I do not NEED to know this information? Why should I be prevented from knowing it? Have you not been reading the forums and seeing that people are saying that they wish they can respec their characters because after selecting certain talents/spells based on the vague descriptions, they realized those selections were not the best ones, and had they known the extra info they would not have selected those talents/spells?

Do not tell other people that they do not need extra info, we might play the game very differently than you do and therefore require the added detail.

I know you were not referring to me specifically, but I am in the same boat as the person you replied to.

[danielkx]

zesban wrote...

What is this, some philosophical discussion on the morale and social responsibility of gamers as a consumer force and their role in the direction of the industry? Sounds like a panel for E3, not a topic for a feedback forum.

I'm here to provide feedback on the game I've purchased. Seems relevant. I'm not looking to solve the problems of an industry that might be moving toward an addiction based profit model. If you think it's wrong or immoral for consumers to ask for new products and state their willingness to purchase said products because of the effect it could have on the profit model of the businesses they're making their requests of then please by all means write your congress-person and get a law passed.

Until then I'm waving my $5 in the air and hoping BioWare notices.

But you are not just affecting this game and you personally, you are, and others like you, are affecting all of us. Your ignorance does not help anyone at all. You are telling BioWare, "HEY! We are willing to give you extra money if you give us features that we all know should have been part of the game in the first place! But, we don't care if it wasn't part of it, I want to give you my money now!"

All that says to the gaming companies is that they can just not include features and charge for them.

Seriously, stop being ignorant and naive and start using your brain and think about it beyond just the here and now.

This isn't a philosophical discussion, this is simply logic. It is illogical to react the way you are reacting because it will lead the industry to a place nobody, including yourself, would not want it to go to. You are being highly illogical, try being the opposite of that.

[Horben11]

I don't know about the combat log, but what I would have liked to see is consistent documentation all around. This was something they did very well in NWN2, well enough in Mass Effect, and superbly in Jade Empire. I wonder if they just got lazy here, and thought we'd be dazzled by the bloodstains?

[zesban]

Actually I'm fine with the industry heading there. A product will only sell for what people are willing to pay for it. If the industry moves in that direction and the micro-components(features) cost more than people are willing to pay, the games will no longer sell and a new model will be explored until the industry generates revenue once again.



This is what a free market economy does. There is no moral obligation by the consumer force to prevent this, only personal morality which will dictate personal action, i.e. not purchasing animal tested products or Mel Gibson movies. If you'd rather government regulation and/or a socialist or other government driven economic model be imposed on the industry, then once again, please write your congress-person.

[Voltcation]

danielkx wrote...

Gike987 wrote...
You know enough to not blindly guessing you know if an ability will deal major damage or if it has any special functions. The only thing numerical data is good for is to min/max your character and you won't need that on an normal playthrough.

You are trying to tell me that I do not NEED to know this information? Why should I be prevented from knowing it? Have you not been reading the forums and seeing that people are saying that they wish they can respec their characters because after selecting certain talents/spells based on the vague descriptions, they realized those selections were not the best ones, and had they known the extra info they would not have selected those talents/spells?

Do not tell other people that they do not need extra info, we might play the game very differently than you do and therefore require the added detail.

I know you were not referring to me specifically, but I am in the same boat as the person you replied to.

I havne't choosen the wrong ability and I don't have any numerical values. Just use your common sense and it shoulden't be an problem. You know alot by just looking at the name. For example you could probably figure out that an blizzard will be an pretty good thing to cast at a group of enemies without knowing the exact damage.
Also if you really have to have the best of every spell it is really easy to research thaat outside the game.

Modifié par Gike987, 15 novembre 2009 - 11:55 .

[Daryn Mercio]

quick question, but what exactly is a combat log?

I haven't even played DA:O yet but I hope to get it soon. Hopefully I don't come off as a loser

[Ajyk]

I would like a combat log, but will not, under any circumstances, pay extra for it.

[danielkx]

zesban wrote...

Actually I'm fine with the industry heading there. A product will only sell for what people are willing to pay for it. If the industry moves in that direction and the micro-components(features) cost more than people are willing to pay, the games will no longer sell and a new model will be explored until the industry generates revenue once again.

This is what a free market economy does. There is no moral obligation by the consumer force to prevent this, only personal morality which will dictate personal action, i.e. not purchasing animal tested products or Mel Gibson movies. If you'd rather government regulation and/or a socialist or other government driven economic model be imposed on the industry, then once again, please write your congress-person.

Woah, ok, didn't know you were that kind of person, although I suspected it to some extent.

Discussion over then, for me at least.

[zesban]

Hey Gike987, I also want to purchase a Honda Civic instead a Honda Ridgeline. I want to buy this because I want to save on gas mileage.



Would you have me believe that I'm being foolish there as well because a Honda Ridgeline already has all of these other great features and I should just make due with it, even if it doesn't have great gas mileage like so many other Honda vehicles do? It seems that way to me.



We're talking about a personal choice of features, but it seems you would have us make due with what is there instead of looking for more options. Should car companies only make cars one way, and only include a small feature set because it would be difficult to engineer this one car with additional features? Should car companies not charge more for a car that they do manage to engineer these additional features in to, say like a Honda Ridgeline with the gas mileage of a Honda Civic somehow? Are people that purchase these cars that have these other options somehow inferior?



I draw the analogy and ask the questions to make a point. I'm not going to require you to buy a Honda Civic. You may be more interested in a vehicle that is "fun" than "fiscally and numerically sound" but not everyone feels the same way. So why berate them for asking for such?

[Sylvius the Mad]

danielkx wrote...

Really? So not only have you convinced them to provide a combat log for $5 extra, you have also convinced them that people are more than willing to pay extra for features that should without question been a part of the game originally. Now all they have to do is not include certain basic features because they know gamers are more than willing to fork over the money and buy it as DLC.

Games have been getting progressively less expensive for decades, and the content I want has also been dwindling.  If I have to pay extra to get that content, I'll do that, because I did it happily before.

I spent the equivalent of $160 on Ultima V.  It was worth every penny.  DAO so far has cost me less than half that, and it's missing some features I'd like (at the very least, some decent documentation would be nice).  Maybe that's because I didn't pay much for it.

[FFLB]

I agree that having a combat log, and a dialogue log for floating text, would be very helpful. I could turn on subtitles for floating text, but things just become too garbled that it's distracting when trying to take in the scene. Also, new background conversations seem to cancel out the any current background conversations that may be taking place, such as party chat being canceled by two gossipers that you happened to pass by.



Anyway, yes, a combat log would be useful.

[danielkx]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

danielkx wrote...

Really? So not only have you convinced them to provide a combat log for $5 extra, you have also convinced them that people are more than willing to pay extra for features that should without question been a part of the game originally. Now all they have to do is not include certain basic features because they know gamers are more than willing to fork over the money and buy it as DLC.

Games have been getting progressively less expensive for decades, and the content I want has also been dwindling.  If I have to pay extra to get that content, I'll do that, because I did it happily before.

I spent the equivalent of $160 on Ultima V.  It was worth every penny.  DAO so far has cost me less than half that, and it's missing some features I'd like (at the very least, some decent documentation would be nice).  Maybe that's because I didn't pay much for it.

Do you believe that the decision to not have a combat log was made because it would have costed them too much to include it? You, I am sure, know better, and know that it isn't because it is such an expensive thing to include (unless the engine was that crappy).

You, Sylvius, really think BioWare should charge us to purchase the combat log? You think that is a good idea, and that more good things will come out of it if they decided to start doing this type of thing?

This is not a rhetorical question, I am honestly asking you specifically.

[Ajyk]

Zesban: The car analogy is invalid: it's more akin to buying a car to find out it has no reverse, and offering to pay more to have it installed when it should come standard.



Sylvius: Less expensive? When I grew up, Nintendo games were $50 or less new. Today's console games cost $60 (PS3 and 360) - and special editions cost considerably more. Maybe you don't live in the USA?

[zesban]

Daryn Mercio wrote...

quick question, but what exactly is a combat log?
I haven't even played DA:O yet but I hope to get it soon. Hopefully I don't come off as a loser

Hi Daryn, I'm glad you asked. A combat log is a history in text of the actions that have taken place in combat. Traditionally, such a log will contain information on who has attacked which targets, with which abilities, and to what effect, usually represented by a numerical value.

For instance, you may see in the log things like...

Morrigan casts Fireball.
Bandit takes 41 fire damage from Morrigan's Fireball. 12 resisted.
Bandit takes 43 fire damage from Morrigan's Fireball. 10 resisted.
Bandit Leader takes 12 damage from Morrigan's Fireball. 41 resisted.
Bandit shoots Morrigan.
Morrigan takes 13 piercing damage from Bandit's Elf-Flight Arrow. 1 resisted.

And so on. As you can see, this information can be useful in determining your party's tactics throughout the fight. In this case you could discover that the Bandit Leader seems to be highly resistant to your Fire spells and this would let you know to switch to your Ice spells for taking him down.

I hope this clears up your question on what a combat log is. And no, you're not a loser.

[danielkx]

Ajyk wrote...

Zesban: The car analogy is invalid: it's more akin to buying a car to find out it has no reverse, and offering to pay more to have it installed when it should come standard.

Sylvius: Less expensive? When I grew up, Nintendo games were $50 or less new. Today's console games cost $60 (PS3 and 360) - and special editions cost considerably more. Maybe you don't live in the USA?

Sylvius was almost certainly including inflation. This to me is still irrelevant.

[Archie591]

You guys do know that Bioware has already addressed this question. The combat log was scrapped for a reason.

20 posts in a thread isn't all that great of an argument to make one. I don't doubt that it is possible for them to make one, but I don't see the need and neither to the majority of the players. Considering that EA probably has Bioware on a short leash when it comes to marketing and releasing any kind of content , you can be fairly sure that unless you start a petition with thousands of people backing you - it ain't gonna happen.



Also, like one poster already said: What you are doing is actually rewarding the company for not installing a feature. For all we know this was EA-s plan all along. Cut a feature and wait till the people start demanding it and then ask for money. Obviously this is blatant stealing - but seeing now that people are so willing to give away their money I'm worried that this might actually become a reality. So really, stop this thread - talk to a modder and have something like this made if possible.

If not, just play the game you bought - if you don't like it, then it is your own fault. Bioware told there was no combat log for months ahead of the release, nobody forced you to buy the game.





Personally I don't care about no combat log. There is enough information in the game and if you aren't smart enough to realize that - I feel sorry for you. I hardly need more then one encounter with an enemy to realize it's strenght and weaknesses and most of them are already painfully obvious.

You would have to be a real simpleton to use fireball on a rage demon that looks like a pile of lava.

Any spellcasters you encounter obviously have some sort of spell resistance and no combat log is going to be more specific then that anyway.

Considering that the developers left spell combos to be found by the players already tells me tons about their plans. Obviously they made the game so that people who are thorough and skillful get more out of the game. Experimentation is only natural, having everything done for you and told without you needing to lift a finger is boring.



Bioware made this game so that it has a much faster combat then previous titles. Fights rarely last long. Combat log would be simply a cluttered mess of text 1 in 10 players would even glance at.

In BG I looked at it only when the fight was over and only the last three lines. Sometimes I tried to look for specific parts about the combat, but it was quite pointless. I could very well see how often I hit someone. I did not need to see whether or not some number was spot on.

[zesban]

Ajyk wrote...

Zesban: The car analogy is invalid: it's more akin to buying a car to find out it has no reverse, and offering to pay more to have it installed when it should come standard.

Sylvius: Less expensive? When I grew up, Nintendo games were $50 or less new. Today's console games cost $60 (PS3 and 360) - and special editions cost considerably more. Maybe you don't live in the USA?

Ajyk, if you consider the combat log a feature that makes the game almost unusable without it then yes, I can see your point. A car without reverse would not be safe on the roadways and I'm sure there is regulation which prevents such a vehicle from being produced and sold, which makes sense since lives are on the line there.

Since no one will die, in real life, without a combat log, I'm not sure it's as essential. None-the-less, I feel your virtual pain. Perhaps virtual legislation is in order? I think we should petition the Bannorn, once this whole civil war thing has blown over that is.

[Osprey39]

Phoenixblight wrote...

Min/max players they feel like they have to have the most damage possible which is pointless in a single player game. What are you going to do complain when you see an ability is not doing the damae you want or go on forums and say I got 600 damage in one hit beat that. Its pontless, Bioware top leading games didn't have this feature (Kotor, Mass Effect, Jade Empire) There will always be a need to complain about something.

Wait til someone makes a mod of it.

Don't forget, they need to be able to parse the log so they can bench Leliana because she doesn't do enough 'sick deeps'