95 réponses à ce sujet

[zesban]

Archie591 wrote...

You guys do know that Bioware has already addressed this question. The combat log was scrapped for a reason.
20 posts in a thread isn't all that great of an argument to make one. I don't doubt that it is possible for them to make one, but I don't see the need and neither to the majority of the players. Considering that EA probably has Bioware on a short leash when it comes to marketing and releasing any kind of content , you can be fairly sure that unless you start a petition with thousands of people backing you - it ain't gonna happen.

Also, like one poster already said: What you are doing is actually rewarding the company for not installing a feature. For all we know this was EA-s plan all along. Cut a feature and wait till the people start demanding it and then ask for money. Obviously this is blatant stealing - but seeing now that people are so willing to give away their money I'm worried that this might actually become a reality. So really, stop this thread - talk to a modder and have something like this made if possible.
If not, just play the game you bought - if you don't like it, then it is your own fault. Bioware told there was no combat log for months ahead of the release, nobody forced you to buy the game.


Personally I don't care about no combat log. There is enough information in the game and if you aren't smart enough to realize that - I feel sorry for you. I hardly need more then one encounter with an enemy to realize it's strenght and weaknesses and most of them are already painfully obvious.
You would have to be a real simpleton to use fireball on a rage demon that looks like a pile of lava.
Any spellcasters you encounter obviously have some sort of spell resistance and no combat log is going to be more specific then that anyway.
Considering that the developers left spell combos to be found by the players already tells me tons about their plans. Obviously they made the game so that people who are thorough and skillful get more out of the game. Experimentation is only natural, having everything done for you and told without you needing to lift a finger is boring.

Bioware made this game so that it has a much faster combat then previous titles. Fights rarely last long. Combat log would be simply a cluttered mess of text 1 in 10 players would even glance at.
In BG I looked at it only when the fight was over and only the last three lines. Sometimes I tried to look for specific parts about the combat, but it was quite pointless. I could very well see how often I hit someone. I did not need to see whether or not some number was spot on.

As terrible as it may be Archie591, I'm still going to show that I have $5 I'm willing to spend. And here others can show that too.

If you're right, and there's not enough support for such a feature, then I'm sure this thread will dwindle like most on the forums. Some megabytes on a hard drive are lost... But if there is a demand, people can show it here, and further, show the money in it. This is ultimately what moves companies, and this is how we can get what we want from said companies.

Edit: I'll be pretty interested to see if there is support for this, as I hope there is. I'll check back in later, gotta take care of some things.

Modifié par zesban, 16 novembre 2009 - 12:29 .

[Archie591]

I agree with the thread in general. Our opinions must be taken into account.



It's simply that this isn't some feature the developers "forgot" or "simply" didn't include or whatnot. It was a conscious decision to not include this feature. This game was massively tested and obviously it was agreed that a combat log would not be needed.



I'm no programmer, so I have no idea how much problems such a log would create. It is entirely conceivable that technically it is extremely difficult to make.



All in all, if you must have it. Go ahead and keep this thread alive, but for the love of god. Stop waving that 5$ around. For 5$ I expect nothing less then a full DLC.

If they think a combat log is enough to ask such a price then the gaming industry is totally doomed.

You may have money to throw around, but you are actually hurting your cause. I can see it now DAO 2, for 5$ extra you can have this nice toolbar with quick-slots - otherwise you simply have to play without.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Ajyk wrote...

Sylvius: Less expensive? When I grew up, Nintendo games were $50 or less new. Today's console games cost $60 (PS3 and 360) - and special editions cost considerably more. Maybe you don't live in the USA?

Maybe you don't undersatnd how to calculate real dollars across different time periods.

danielkx wrote...

Do you believe that the decision to not have a combat log was made because it would have costed them too much to include it?

Given that thety felt a combat log would drive away some customers, they'd have had to make it optional, and optional features are quite expensive.

However, my point is that we're paying far less for games than we used to, and as a result BioWare can't afford to pander to our desires if our desires aren't widely represented in their target audience.

ROI matters.

You, Sylvius, really think BioWare should charge us to purchase the combat log?

Yes.

I don't think they should charge us for documentation, however.  And I don't think the combat log would be nearly as necessary if we had adequate documentation.  The main reason I'd like a combat log is so I could work out what's happening, but I wouldn't have to do that if the game was documented properly.

You think that is a good idea, and that more good things will come out of it if they decided to start doing this type of thing?

Yes.  If they start providing people feautres they want and making them pay for them, that's a good thing.

You appear to want them to provide you features you want but most people don't care about, and you don't want to have to pay extra for them.  I'll stop before I call you a communist, but I will point out that your approach already isn't working, because BioWare isn't giving us those features, and they're not about to start doing it without there being something in it for them.

It's not evil to ask to be paid for your work.

[Dragon Age1103]

when i cast a spell this strange thing happens where a floating number comes up indicating how much damage I did. I can also use these crazy eye things on my face to see if it does damage to an enemies health bar. It's all very crazy. My point being this will probably be a free mod & it's not hard to use common sense to dictate the damage a spell is doing. The game has a pause feature so u can see at any time. Plus I'm not some nub & my strategies kill my enemies so I don't need numbers so get by & figure out what works best. You can already figure that out with common sense & the tools already provided in the game.

[mrofni]

danielkx wrote...

zesban wrote...

Actually I'm fine with the industry heading there. A product will only sell for what people are willing to pay for it. If the industry moves in that direction and the micro-components(features) cost more than people are willing to pay, the games will no longer sell and a new model will be explored until the industry generates revenue once again.

This is what a free market economy does. There is no moral obligation by the consumer force to prevent this, only personal morality which will dictate personal action, i.e. not purchasing animal tested products or Mel Gibson movies. If you'd rather government regulation and/or a socialist or other government driven economic model be imposed on the industry, then once again, please write your congress-person.

Woah, ok, didn't know you were that kind of person, although I suspected it to some extent.

Discussion over then, for me at least.

What is wrong with Zesban's look on it? He makes some valid points, and you act like you should avoid him like the plague now. Then you keep discussing this with other people but speak nothing about Zesban's points. You said the discussion was over for you. Is it? You seem to keep talking about it, but only to discuss your own points.

danielkx wrote...

But you are not just affecting this game and you personally, you
are, and others like you, are affecting all of us. Your ignorance does
not help anyone at all. You are telling BioWare, "HEY! We are willing
to give you extra money if you give us features that we all know should
have been part of the game in the first place! But, we don't care if it
wasn't part of it, I want to give you my money now!"

All that says to the gaming companies is that they can just not include features and charge for them.

Seriously, stop being ignorant and naive and start using your brain and think about it beyond just the here and now.

This
isn't a philosophical discussion, this is simply logic. It is illogical
to react the way you are reacting because it will lead the industry to
a place nobody, including yourself, would not want it to go to. You are
being highly illogical, try being the opposite of that.

You were the one who brought philosophical debate into this in the first place. That if one company decides to have a $5 add-on for combat logs that every company will do so. Theres no guarantee to that, and another company may decide to get an edge on a company who does this by making the combat log free.

Now you start using logic. You think a company would spend time adding a feature to the game without any expectancy of obtaining additional money from it? If it made a better experience for the players, they would to obtain a more loyal fan base, but for a combat log change to do that it would also require them to clear up their vague descriptions on their abilities in the first place.

Now, if people show they are actually willing to shell out money for this, the company might actually take a closer look at this issue. They will see that people actually care about this, and they may either be able to make a profit by charging people for this, or increase their company fan base by providing this for free. Both of these have beneficial effects on their wallet.

I personally wouldn't pay $5 for this, but if somebody else is it is their own damn business. People have the right to spend their money as they choose, so long as they aren't doing any illegal activity by doing so. It is exactly like how people have the right to speak their mind, which all of us on the internet take that right for granted. If you believe that Zesban or I am wrong, that is perfectably acceptable. If you believe that by having people willing to pay $5 for a combat log will create an effect in the gaming industry to make every company do that, then that is perfectly acceptable as well. I would like to know why you feel the way you do. But please don't demand that other people can't speak their mind freely or spend their money freely. That is a path straight to tyrrany.

Edit: Daniel, only the first 3 paragraphs I said were directed toward you. The rest is just general discussion for the forum.

Modifié par mrofni, 16 novembre 2009 - 01:06 .

[danielkx]

Sylvius.



What am I asking that is so difficult to implement? And I am surprised that you of all people would make such comments. You are one of the biggest advocates of having certain, more hardcorish features if you can call them that, be included but be kept as optional, now you say that having optional features can be too expensive. I am not only confused by this, but also quite surprised.



I do not care if someone calls me a communist or not, I generally consider myself to be a socialist, although I do not feel any label would be truly applicable towards myself. But all of that is irrelevant. I am not asking BioWare to do work and not get paid... they are getting my $50. Simple features like combat logs are not difficult at all to implement, but if you believe they are, then so be it.

[danielkx]

mrofni wrote...
snip...

My discussion with him specifically is over, not this discussion as a whole.

I brought zero philosophical points in my initial discussion with zesban.

Edit: Also, I was unware that I was saying that you cannot speak your mind. In fact, all I said was that what he was saying was wrong, and that it would lead to more nickle and diming by the companies.

Also, I explained, in significant detail why I felt his points were either illogical and would not benefit gamers/gaming as a whole, there is no need for me to explain them again. Please feel free to go back and read my previous comments, I assure you I explained myself quite well.

Modifié par danielkx, 16 novembre 2009 - 01:07 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Dragon Age1103 wrote...

when i cast a spell this strange thing happens where a floating number comes up indicating how much damage I did. I can also use these crazy eye things on my face to see if it does damage to an enemies health bar. It's all very crazy. My point being this will probably be a free mod & it's not hard to use common sense to dictate the damage a spell is doing. The game has a pause feature so u can see at any time.

This solution would only be applicable if those floating numbers paused along with the rest of the game so you'd have time to read them all.

If I lauch three AoE spells at the same time, there is no way I can read all the numbers for all the enemies to find out which ones have resistance.

[X106]

zesban wrote...

Seriously, putting my money where my mouth is here. I will pay you $5 on a DLC for a Combat Log because this feature is that important to me. If I plan to continue to play this game at length, continue to experience it through other DLC and Community Content, and take advantage of its replayability I really need this feature. And I will pay for it. $5.

You have a distribution channel and a demand. That should be enough to allow you the resources to craft one. Please, please, please do.

And if anyone else cares to pony up, please reply to this post. The greater the demand that can be shown for this content the more likely that BioWare, as a company that needs to profit to remain in business, is to produce it. Thank you.

I have been hoping for this as well but I wouldn't pay.. 

[Kithayri]

I agree with wanting a combat log (i'm a numbers guy and I like knowing exactly whats going on in my game, whose resisting, whose hitting me the hardest when theres 10 mobs on screen etc), but I do disagree it should be a paid DLC; at best it should be an optional extra included in a content DLC in the same way Warden's Keep added a storage mechanic to a story based download.

[mrofni]

Once again you avoid discussion. My post wasn't just that section either. If you believe you are right, share the fruits of your knowledge. Please don't just post things that close discussion rather then open it.

Edit: Sorry, I didn't see your edit, and you didn't see mine either. Only the first 3 posts of that section I wrote before were directed at you.  The rest were just about general statements said. You didn't say that people shouldn't speak their mind, other people did.

But after seeing your edit, I can say that your post saying your ending the discussion seemed like you just didn't want to discuss it more for some reason or another rather then having nothing more to say. If you had nothing more to say, that is ok, and I'm sorry for sayinug you were avoiding the discussion if that is the case. Is that the case?

Modifié par mrofni, 16 novembre 2009 - 01:15 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

[quote]danielkx wrote...

Sylvius.

What am I asking that is so difficult to implement?[/quote[
All toggled features are expensive to implement, because they double QA costs.  BioWare would need to test everything in the game with the log on, and then do it again with the log turned off (plus they'd have to test the log to ensure it was always accurate).
[quote] And I am surprised that you of all people would make such comments. You are one of the biggest advocates of having certain, more hardcorish features if you can call them that, be included but be kept as optional, now you say that having optional features can be too expensive. I am not only confused by this, but also quite surprised.[/quote]
I insist that some features are necessary for a game to be accurately described as an RPG, but DAO (for the most part) has those features.

And I also think that adequate documentation (which DAO utterly lacks) would solve most of the problems caused by the lack of a combat log, thus making such a feature even less valuable to the wider audience.

I generally only propose changes that I think have small (or acceptable) opportunity costs, but a combat log has quite a big opportunity cost.
[quote]I do not care if someone calls me a communist or not, I generally consider myself to be a socialist, although I do not feel any label would be truly applicable towards myself. But all of that is irrelevant. I am not asking BioWare to do work and not get paid... they are getting my $50.[/quote]
Since you already paid them $50, then clearly they've already provided you with $50 worth of game.  If you want more game, you'll have to pay for that.
[quote]Simple features like combat logs are not difficult at all to implement, but if you believe they are, then so be it.[/quote]
More than that, you have no reason at all to believe they are not difficult to implement.

You've been around long enough to know what happens when someone says something isn't hard to implement.  A kitten gets punted through a plate glass window.

[danielkx]

mrofni wrote...

Once again you avoid discussion. My post wasn't just that section either. If you believe you are right, share the fruits of your knowledge. Please don't just post things that close discussion rather then open it.

Sorry but I just feel that I have explained myself well enough, and that further explanation would solve nothing. I effectively answered your questions when I was having the discussion with zesban. The rest of your post would require me to go into more ethical/philosophical points, and my ethics and philosophies are very, very different than just about anyone else's on this forum. If you wish to discuss this further, then PM me and I will ablidge, but I would prefer to not do it further on this thread.

No insults intended in my post, sometimes I come off as very blunt, since.... I kind of am

[zesban]

Archie591 wrote...

I agree with the thread in general. Our opinions must be taken into account.

It's simply that this isn't some feature the developers "forgot" or "simply" didn't include or whatnot. It was a conscious decision to not include this feature. This game was massively tested and obviously it was agreed that a combat log would not be needed.

I'm no programmer, so I have no idea how much problems such a log would create. It is entirely conceivable that technically it is extremely difficult to make.

All in all, if you must have it. Go ahead and keep this thread alive, but for the love of god. Stop waving that 5$ around. For 5$ I expect nothing less then a full DLC.
If they think a combat log is enough to ask such a price then the gaming industry is totally doomed.
You may have money to throw around, but you are actually hurting your cause. I can see it now DAO 2, for 5$ extra you can have this nice toolbar with quick-slots - otherwise you simply have to play without.

This "It is entirely conceivable that technically it is extremely difficult to make." is why I do this "...waving that 5$ around."

I'm not trying to doom the game industry, in fact I already addressed this with Danielkx who saw we were really talking economics and our views on it(I call it a philosophy but he doesn't like that word for it.). I am acknowledging that the developers and the company needs to be compensated for its time and effort. Further, I'm showing I'm willing to do so because this is something that's important to me.

And if a combat log is important enough to enough people that they're willing to compensate BioWare for it as well, I think our odds are pretty good that we can get one. Admonishing BioWare for not including a feature is not going to get us that feature, indeed it will be unlikely it will even get us noticed. Money talks Archie591, and if I want to be heard I'm going to use it.

[mrofni]

Haha, you didn't see see my edit. I made an edit to the post you quoted. You should read the edit and respond. You're also right, we are getting off target. I think that the best way we could get this is by everyone making posts of "Sign with Pay" or "Sign without Pay".



"Sign with Pay" would mean that you want this and may be willing to pay, and "Sign without Pay" means you want this, but would not be willing to pay. I think this would allow us to keep on topic of showing them how much want this while not getting distracted of this massive debate which may derail our objective entirely. So, to start it off.



Signed without Pay.

[danielkx]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
snip... .

Do not get me wrong, I am not as big of an advocate of a combat log as I appear to be on this thread, combat log is just one feature that I am discussing here.

Toggled features do not always double the QA cost, in fact, implementing the combat log as a toggling feature would not be that expensive. Yes I have said that multiple times, and you have refuted it, but I still insist it is not. Can I provide specific numbers? No, but my experience says it is a relatively simple feature to implement. I admit, I could be completely wrong, and if I am, then so be it, I will admit it.

I agree, better documentation would help solve  the issue to some extent.

Again, I admit that I am not provding solid evidence to support my claim that implementing the combat log as a toggling feature would be relatively inexpensive, but I believe I am right (I hate having to say that because it really means nothing). I do have some knowledge into how developing games work, and the relative costs of implementing certain features, but again I may be wrong.

[danielkx]

mrofni wrote...

Haha, you didn't see see my edit. I made an edit to the post you quoted. You should read the edit and respond. You're also right, we are getting off target. I think that the best way we could get this is by everyone making posts of "Sign with Pay" or "Sign without Pay".

"Sign with Pay" would mean that you want this and may be willing to pay, and "Sign without Pay" means you want this, but would not be willing to pay. I think this would allow us to keep on topic of showing them how much want this while not getting distracted of this massive debate which may derail our objective entirely. So, to start it off.

Signed without Pay.

But the paragraphs you want me to respond to require me to go into philosophy, which I do not feel like doing in this thread atm. If you wish to go into it in that kind of detail, then we can do it in PM's if you wish, I do not have a problem with that.

Signed without Pay.

[zesban]

danielkx wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
snip... .

Do not get me wrong, I am not as big of an advocate of a combat log as I appear to be on this thread, combat log is just one feature that I am discussing here.

Toggled features do not always double the QA cost, in fact, implementing the combat log as a toggling feature would not be that expensive. Yes I have said that multiple times, and you have refuted it, but I still insist it is not. Can I provide specific numbers? No, but my experience says it is a relatively simple feature to implement. I admit, I could be completely wrong, and if I am, then so be it, I will admit it.

I agree, better documentation would help solve  the issue to some extent.

Again, I admit that I am not provding solid evidence to support my claim that implementing the combat log as a toggling feature would be relatively inexpensive, but I believe I am right (I hate having to say that because it really means nothing). I do have some knowledge into how developing games work, and the relative costs of implementing certain features, but again I may be wrong.

Indeed, without knowledge of the engine, sizing a project for a combat log feature set would be difficult. It appears that the source for abilities is rather extensible, given that DLC already provides new talents and even new characters that fit seemlessly in to the game. But we don't know where the interface lies for this, or if there even is one. It could be an amalgamation of several sub-systems which would increase the complexity greatly.

I'm also not sure if the API in the toolset or on the game's base classes expose this information at all. I haven't looked in to it, maybe someone has. It may be that it's entirely internal to the engine, possibly even hard coded in places. If so, developing a monitor like the combat log could not be possible without the rewrite of other classes, having an impact on the engine, or at least causing a branch on their source.

Even if it's not, and a Community member ends up using this information to develop a Mod, it may not be as complete as what could be consumed from inside the application. Further, what performance impact would such a tool have on the game's performance? Is the API capable of rapid reads for polling for that information, or does it provide any subscription to combat events so that such a Mod wouldn't have to? I don't know.

But it's not my job to write their game for them. It is my job to say what I want as a consumer. I'd like a combat log please. I'm willing to pay up to $5 for it. If the development and QA work is worth that income, then I hope to see it soon.

Edit: Oh ahem, and signed, with or without pay.

Modifié par zesban, 16 novembre 2009 - 01:38 .

[chizow]

I'm opposed to paying for this feature and also feel it should be included by default. As for why its important to some people, its not so much about min/maxing its about being able to evaluate and make decisions about gear and builds with some degree of confidence, which is especially important given Bioware does not allow for an official re-spec option. I firmly believe the lack of a combat log is the main reason numerous bugs regarding dmg, item bonuses, and overall balance slipped through the cracks past QA.



If you need some examples, look no further than dagger/bow damage and dex bonuses being broken or +% healing items not working at all. Again, some people might be willing to blithely accept limited information at face value, but others may prefer to know with some degree of certainty.

[Archangel064]

danielkx wrote...

Not signed and I am completely opposed to this.

Not the feature, I think the feature should have DEFINITELY been a part of the game, and that is why I would not be willing to pay extra for it. BioWare did not include a feature to their game that most of us, and them, know should have been a part of it, and would have been relatively easy to implement. So now I am going to pay them extra money for not including this feature in their game? Absolutely not.

What's next? We pay them to add better descriptions for spells and talents? Lets just pay BioWare extra to implement the features that they should have included in the game initially, great plan everyone.

Seriously, think about this before you actually make the comment, you do not want companies to start thinking that they could simply not include relatively fundamental features to their games (combat log is fundamental for a traditional rpg) and then charge us for it later because we are willing to pay for it.

THIS!!!

No way in hell I'd support paying extra for a fundamental feature that should have been included from day one. screw that!!!

This is akin to buying a new car and having to pay extra for door locks, or mirrors or some such other basic piece of equipment.

[mrofni]

Sign without pay then. Still let them know you want it then. I'm fine with people posting their opinions on how should be in the without paying, but please still say that you want this feature. Just the the simple line "Sign without Pay" at the end of your messages would help a lot for any forum moderator seeing how many people want this feature. We can't count on them reading every post and deciphering who wants it or not. So by putting 1 extra line of "Sign with Pay" or "Sign without Pay" would help a lot in getting their attention.

[zesban]

chizow wrote...

I'm opposed to paying for this feature and also feel it should be included by default. As for why its important to some people, its not so much about min/maxing its about being able to evaluate and make decisions about gear and builds with some degree of confidence, which is especially important given Bioware does not allow for an official re-spec option. I firmly believe the lack of a combat log is the main reason numerous bugs regarding dmg, item bonuses, and overall balance slipped through the cracks past QA.

If you need some examples, look no further than dagger/bow damage and dex bonuses being broken or +% healing items not working at all. Again, some people might be willing to blithely accept limited information at face value, but others may prefer to know with some degree of certainty.

...and...

Archangel064 wrote...

danielkx wrote...

Not signed and I am completely opposed to this.

Not the feature, I think the feature should have DEFINITELY been a part of the game, and that is why I would not be willing to pay extra for it. BioWare did not include a feature to their game that most of us, and them, know should have been a part of it, and would have been relatively easy to implement. So now I am going to pay them extra money for not including this feature in their game? Absolutely not.

What's next? We pay them to add better descriptions for spells and talents? Lets just pay BioWare extra to implement the features that they should have included in the game initially, great plan everyone.

Seriously, think about this before you actually make the comment, you do not want companies to start thinking that they could simply not include relatively fundamental features to their games (combat log is fundamental for a traditional rpg) and then charge us for it later because we are willing to pay for it.

THIS!!!

No way in hell I'd support paying extra for a fundamental feature that should have been included from day one. screw that!!!

This is akin to buying a new car and having to pay extra for door locks, or mirrors or some such other basic piece of equipment.

I can appreciate that you feel this feature, a combat log, should be free. I'd love if that were the case as well. But I'm willing to pay for it if it can't be made available freely. Others have expressed the same. 

It might be that the only way I can carve out some time from the development team is to put up the dollars for. So be it, I'll go looking for the dollars. It would be great if the development happened and they provided this content at no cost to us players, instead looking for a payoff from word of mouth about feature inclusion or for some other tangential benefit for their efforts. But it'll still come down to the same reason, because there's money in it.

[CastorKrieg]

DA:O doesn't need combat log, all the abilities are clearly visible, and are also indicated right next to each of your character's portraits when they perform an action. How often you will have two mages casting the spell at the same time? I'm on my 3rd char, 40hrs in, and I never had an issue with the absence of the combat log.

But by all means, voice your concern and your willingness to pay for the feature. In the meantime, while you wait for Bioware to make a combat log, please be more flexible and try to enjoy the game without it. It's really a great game.

Modifié par CastorKrieg, 16 novembre 2009 - 02:17 .

[DazKaz]

I would like to see a combat log.

Should have been included in the options,

Combat log: on off

It's a single player game, and should cater to how different people like to play.

Absolutly nothing wrong with giving people more choice on how they want to play.

[MrFish]

This is no doubt buried somewhere and I find it likely its reasonably easy to address, mostly because of what this game engine is based on (aurora) and how it operates (roll based round chance values). It will also be there for purposes of debugging whilst the game was under construction. Knowing whether functionality for attacks and defences work properly is very easy if you have the combat log up. No doubt it was removed to take a visual level of complexity away from the player.



Yes lots of people want it, but from an overall market perspective its probably not that useful. Mind you, I'd at least like it toggelable on the PC version. The reason being, I need to know more detailed information about attacks, abilities and combat features for the purpose of constructing balanced encounters for a module, else I could easily over or underwhelm the PC.



For the single player campaign, I don't really need it, though it would be nice to try to understand why what is currently killing me went horribly wrong.