84 réponses à ce sujet

[Pradeep Sanders]

I've played Bioware games for many years, from BG1 on up. I play them for the story, the characters and relationships, and the richness and depth of the world they create. Finding little items linked to the main story, doing character side quests, going through all the conversations with your party to learn about their pasts. I enjoy the writing and the story, I like actively following the story in a game rather than reading it or watching it as a movie.

In other words, I liked those games because they were role-playing games.

The writing for Dragon Age looks to be fantastic. The characters are interesting, and the history of the world is unique and rich. There are areas to be explored off the main quest, and relationships to develop with everyone (and every dog) in your party. This game has every hallmark of a good RPG.

Unfortunately, the freedom of choice in how you play this game has been taken away. The combat encounters require specific party choices and tactics that limit how you follow the story. Just look at the other posts on the forums and count how often you read about 'tanks' and 'DPS' and 'AoE' and 'pots' and 'spam' and 'kiting' and a dozen other terms taken from plotless MMORPG games that require countless hours of grinding against infinite monsters ('mobs') before you are rewarded with a level, minor improvement in your abilities, and maybe a piece or two of equipment that you're more likely to sell than use. These tactics should not be required simply to make it through an RPG!

I don't want to be forced to tackle an encounter with a dragon by requiring specific characters in my party, positioning that party just so, taking advantage of one or two particular magic spells' effects that the AI doesn't handle well, running in circles to allow abilities to recharge, mashing on health or mana potions at exactly the right time to keep the fight going, and pausing constantly to try and guess when I can tell a character to do the next action without losing an action.

I don't mind if some players want to min/max their way to beating the game at the lowest possible level or in the fastest time. Those same players usually care nothing for the non-essential character dialog or side-quests. I'm incredibly disappointed that I am required to the same thing just to move through the story. It sometimes prevents me from taking the characters I would like, from equipping the weapons, armor, or items I would like, from choosing the spells or specializations I would like.

I'm sure some will respond to this by accusing me of just being bad at the game, or telling me to reduce the difficulty (I'm on Normal). I've played plenty of games and I don't think I'm at all bad, but that is beside the point. The 'normal' experience for the game should be one that makes it accessible to the widest audience while still providing some challenge for the satisfactory overcoming of an obstacle. Those people who want a cakewalk can choose Easy, those who want a difficult challenge can choose Hard - or Nightmare.

Bioware ruined this potentially great game with their decision to make it so difficult to merely survive the progression of the story, and Dragon Age does not deserve to be called an RPG in the true meaning of the genre until and unless a radical change is made to the way combat is handled.

-Pradeep

[Napoleon1853]

This game is a RPG.

Modifié par Napoleon1853, 15 novembre 2009 - 09:09 .

[Skyfade]

So having difficult combat makes this not an RPG? Gotcha.

[Codeka]

Hey I feel you man. Still try on easy, that's what I do, specifically for the reasons you mentioned. Trust me, it's not a cakewalk either, especially if you do away with the optimal party config. Encounters are still fun. I havent got the patch though, afraid it will get too easy then.

[Strideur]

So why not play it on EZ mode if you don't want a tactical challenge?

[Codeka]

Skyfade wrote...

So having difficult combat makes this not an RPG? Gotcha.

Obviously he meant needing a Tank/DPS/Healer is too MMO for his taste and doesn't let him enjoy the story as much.

[Sarodin]

Yeh, a game doesn't cater to the stupid average of humanity when it comes to it's difficulty settings, and now its ruined? Not an RPG.



Haha.



i'd love to see you play pen and paper rpgs ^^

[DKJaigen]

Pradeep Sanders wrote...

I've played Bioware games for many years, from BG1 on up. I play them for the story, the characters and relationships, and the richness and depth of the world they create. Finding little items linked to the main story, doing character side quests, going through all the conversations with your party to learn about their pasts. I enjoy the writing and the story, I like actively following the story in a game rather than reading it or watching it as a movie.

In other words, I liked those games because they were role-playing games.

The writing for Dragon Age looks to be fantastic. The characters are interesting, and the history of the world is unique and rich. There are areas to be explored off the main quest, and relationships to develop with everyone (and every dog) in your party. This game has every hallmark of a good RPG.

Unfortunately, the freedom of choice in how you play this game has been taken away. The combat encounters require specific party choices and tactics that limit how you follow the story. Just look at the other posts on the forums and count how often you read about 'tanks' and 'DPS' and 'AoE' and 'pots' and 'spam' and 'kiting' and a dozen other terms taken from plotless MMORPG games that require countless hours of grinding against infinite monsters ('mobs') before you are rewarded with a level, minor improvement in your abilities, and maybe a piece or two of equipment that you're more likely to sell than use. These tactics should not be required simply to make it through an RPG!

I don't want to be forced to tackle an encounter with a dragon by requiring specific characters in my party, positioning that party just so, taking advantage of one or two particular magic spells' effects that the AI doesn't handle well, running in circles to allow abilities to recharge, mashing on health or mana potions at exactly the right time to keep the fight going, and pausing constantly to try and guess when I can tell a character to do the next action without losing an action.

I don't mind if some players want to min/max their way to beating the game at the lowest possible level or in the fastest time. Those same players usually care nothing for the non-essential character dialog or side-quests. I'm incredibly disappointed that I am required to the same thing just to move through the story. It sometimes prevents me from taking the characters I would like, from equipping the weapons, armor, or items I would like, from choosing the spells or specializations I would like.

I'm sure some will respond to this by accusing me of just being bad at the game, or telling me to reduce the difficulty (I'm on Normal). I've played plenty of games and I don't think I'm at all bad, but that is beside the point. The 'normal' experience for the game should be one that makes it accessible to the widest audience while still providing some challenge for the satisfactory overcoming of an obstacle. Those people who want a cakewalk can choose Easy, those who want a difficult challenge can choose Hard - or Nightmare.

Bioware ruined this potentially great game with their decision to make it so difficult to merely survive the progression of the story, and Dragon Age does not deserve to be called an RPG in the true meaning of the genre until and unless a radical change is made to the way combat is handled.

-Pradeep

Name 1 rpg tha doesnt require a specific party setup.

And 2 mindlessly killing baddies makes for a boring game play.

[Periodiko]

No, it's an RPG, I just checked.

[Twitchmonkey]

The game becomes much easier if you have a good party set up, as it does in just about any RPG of this type. You can fight Malak using nothing but blasters, but a more diverse party is going to have more tools and make your life easier. If you want to be able to get through with whatever party you like, play on easy and do it. The fact is the need for a well-rounded team makes sense and this is an RPG because it has everything that makes an RPG an RPG.

[Littledingo]

I think you'll find that the terms "Tank" and "Kiting" and all the rest just became common knowledge because of MMORPGs. I'm pretty sure I'm using the same sort of tactics I did when I was playing Baldurs gate when I was 9, I just didn't have a name for them then.



Just because you disapprove of the combat system doesn't not make it an RPG. You listed a whole bunch of things that do make it an amazing rpg. How does this one thing negate all of those in your mind?



Not to mention you can almost always have who ever you want in your party. I can think of only 2 or 3 times when the game has forced me to have a certain member. You don't seem to see the freedom in the combat. Shame. I enjoy it.

[hexaligned]

Once you get used to the game you realize you do NOT need specific parties. In fact the game gets way way too easy using certain tactics. I'm playing through on nightmare with a suboptimal group (DW tank, self imposed restrictions on spell choices) And am having a blast.

[Periodiko]

Codeka wrote...

Skyfade wrote...

So having difficult combat makes this not an RPG? Gotcha.

Obviously he meant needing a Tank/DPS/Healer is too MMO for his taste and doesn't let him enjoy the story as much.

The majority of RPG's ever made have required some form of "Tank/DPS/Healer". Hell, do you think MMO's invented that archetype? They stole it from the first RPG's.

Warriors in the front, wizards in the back, a guy healing everyone. Thats as old as Wizardry.

[Wickedjelly]

I really don't understand this. I played the game on normal and overall while some parts could be a bit challenging the game really isn't all that difficult. I also can't be bothered with the whole min/max bs nor did I rush through the game.



The one thing I will say though is that to a degree this game does require certain party members least to an extent. I don't see anything wrong with that because I've always liked a good mix of classes in the groups I make for these types of games but I suppose if you did want to roll with a certain party makeup like all melee or the such it could be frustrating.

[Pradeep Sanders]

Removing my choice of tactics, companions, skill advancement, or equipment makes this not deserving of being called an RPG.

I'm not complaining about the hard combat. I just think it should be optional if the game is truly an RPG. My memories of Mass Effect, NWN2, Jade Empire, KOTOR, and the rest of Bioware's games are of the characters and the story, NOT of the combat.

My memories of Dragon Age so far are some good dialog and cutscenes, and many hours spent staring at the 'PAUSED' banner trying to figure out how to stay alive. Without resorting to cheap maneuvers that take advantage of weak AI programming or bad pathing or the like.

-Pradeep

[FFLB]

Even though you've already stated it, you could just play it on easy if you just want to focus on the story, RPing, and taking along whoever you prefer rather than what may be necessary.

Other than that, there's not much else to say in response to this thread besides voicing my disagreement with your assessment of the game as an RPG. Just because it requires some tactical play at normal and above doesn't mean that it's not an RPG or that you've lost any more freedom in the game than you would've had if it didn't require some strategy. Really, if a hypothetical quest required your PC and party to soundly beat 4 chess players in a game of chess, you wouldn't bring along those who are less tactically inclined. Sure you can bring Bob the Elf and Ted the Dwarf with 10 Intelligence (Cunning), but it doesn't mean they're going to beat Marvin the Super-Genius in a game of chess, although they could just beat him over the head. DA:O offers many situations like this, which in my opinion, is quite reminiscent of being an RPG.

Modifié par FFLB, 15 novembre 2009 - 09:24 .

[Phoenixblight]

You don't need composition of a group to get through fights. Look at my second through, I have two mages in my group, PC who is an Arcane warrior and can take on a group of darkspawn without an issue and Morrigan who is my supporter than I have usually have Zevran, melee dps. And it usually goes with Sten or Ogrehn depends on who I want to hear the most. Just because people are using terms like tank,dps, healer, you shouldn't go for thinking its an MMO. THose terms have been used since DND atleast I used them 15 years ago. Its only became the norm because there is a certain MMO with 14+ million subscribers.



This is a RPG. 50+ hours of enriched story with lots of character developemetn with a combat system that can be quite rewarding and punishes you easily for making a mistake. You can customize your character to look however you want and make him/her to be whatever you want based on the game desgin.

[Periodiko]

I'm not complaining about the hard combat. I just think it should be optional if the game is truly an RPG. My memories of Mass Effect, NWN2, Jade Empire, KOTOR, and the rest of Bioware's games are of the characters and the story, NOT of the combat.

Thats because those were all absurdly easy games.

A specific design goal of Dragon Age was to rectify this. The fact that you think that combat that actually challenges you should be "optional" in an RPG shows how ridiculous the combat in RPG's has gotten.

If you don't like combat in RPG's, turn the difficulty down.

Modifié par Periodiko, 15 novembre 2009 - 09:24 .

[addiction21]

I too thought I was getting a FPS. Guess I'll console myself with a stack of tasty waffles.

[Sam Starkweather]

DKJaigen wrote...

Pradeep Sanders wrote...

I've played Bioware games for many years, from BG1 on up. I play them for the story, the characters and relationships, and the richness and depth of the world they create. Finding little items linked to the main story, doing character side quests, going through all the conversations with your party to learn about their pasts. I enjoy the writing and the story, I like actively following the story in a game rather than reading it or watching it as a movie.

In other words, I liked those games because they were role-playing games.

The writing for Dragon Age looks to be fantastic. The characters are interesting, and the history of the world is unique and rich. There are areas to be explored off the main quest, and relationships to develop with everyone (and every dog) in your party. This game has every hallmark of a good RPG.

Unfortunately, the freedom of choice in how you play this game has been taken away. The combat encounters require specific party choices and tactics that limit how you follow the story. Just look at the other posts on the forums and count how often you read about 'tanks' and 'DPS' and 'AoE' and 'pots' and 'spam' and 'kiting' and a dozen other terms taken from plotless MMORPG games that require countless hours of grinding against infinite monsters ('mobs') before you are rewarded with a level, minor improvement in your abilities, and maybe a piece or two of equipment that you're more likely to sell than use. These tactics should not be required simply to make it through an RPG!

I don't want to be forced to tackle an encounter with a dragon by requiring specific characters in my party, positioning that party just so, taking advantage of one or two particular magic spells' effects that the AI doesn't handle well, running in circles to allow abilities to recharge, mashing on health or mana potions at exactly the right time to keep the fight going, and pausing constantly to try and guess when I can tell a character to do the next action without losing an action.

I don't mind if some players want to min/max their way to beating the game at the lowest possible level or in the fastest time. Those same players usually care nothing for the non-essential character dialog or side-quests. I'm incredibly disappointed that I am required to the same thing just to move through the story. It sometimes prevents me from taking the characters I would like, from equipping the weapons, armor, or items I would like, from choosing the spells or specializations I would like.

I'm sure some will respond to this by accusing me of just being bad at the game, or telling me to reduce the difficulty (I'm on Normal). I've played plenty of games and I don't think I'm at all bad, but that is beside the point. The 'normal' experience for the game should be one that makes it accessible to the widest audience while still providing some challenge for the satisfactory overcoming of an obstacle. Those people who want a cakewalk can choose Easy, those who want a difficult challenge can choose Hard - or Nightmare.

Bioware ruined this potentially great game with their decision to make it so difficult to merely survive the progression of the story, and Dragon Age does not deserve to be called an RPG in the true meaning of the genre until and unless a radical change is made to the way combat is handled.

-Pradeep

Name 1 rpg tha doesnt require a specific party setup.

And 2 mindlessly killing baddies makes for a boring game play.

Fable 2
Fable 1
Fallout 3
Dark Messiah
Mass Effect 1

To name a few.

[Twitchmonkey]

Pradeep Sanders wrote...

Removing my choice of tactics, companions, skill advancement, or equipment makes this not deserving of being called an RPG.

I'm not complaining about the hard combat. I just think it should be optional if the game is truly an RPG. My memories of Mass Effect, NWN2, Jade Empire, KOTOR, and the rest of Bioware's games are of the characters and the story, NOT of the combat.

My memories of Dragon Age so far are some good dialog and cutscenes, and many hours spent staring at the 'PAUSED' banner trying to figure out how to stay alive. Without resorting to cheap maneuvers that take advantage of weak AI programming or bad pathing or the like.

-Pradeep

You can have many valid party builds with many different power sets, it's just that some are going to be more effective than others. If you want to create a party of nothing but warriors, you can and you can get by alright if you spec them to complement eachother, but you will suffer because you have a lack of versatility. It's a give and take. The game can only hold your hand so much though, if you choose nothing but skills that make your warriors deliver damage, and no one can take any hit, then you're going to have a much harder time, that's just how it has to be.

Fable 2
Fable 1
Fallout 3
Dark Messiah
Mass Effect 1

There are no parties in the first 4, and ME is largely based on player shooting skill, plus it does get much easier if you have a party that complements eachother.

Modifié par Twitchmonkey, 15 novembre 2009 - 09:26 .

[Tentwen]

Well I know I was able to get all the way through to the last boss without any kind of healer in my group on normal. At that point I just didn't have the pots to survive it. They hardly force you to to pick a group based around tank/dps/healer. If you want to play it on harder difficulties then hell yes you'll have to build a group that's better on taking on tougher enemies. That's just common sense.

[Samthorian]

You can call it a Tactical RPG, but it's still an RPG. You don't need a specific party, but it helps. Every game that involves a party you need some sort of strategy to increase effectiveness. Healers heal, Tanks, get everyone to attack them, DPS does all the damage. Effectiveness.

[Netrin]

I understand what you are saying. You are just really bad at getting your point across due to the fact that you list arguments that are easily countered.

The first thing you say is true and the most important the thing. It has a good story, characters, depth etc. and that is what makes a good RPG. Rest is filler.

You are just unhappy with the fact it reminds you of an MMO too much with it being simplistic especially the spell casting system.

But, the terms used in MMO can be used for any good RPG also. Example. Baldur's gate. You think that is a RPG no? Well it has a tank. The dude that takes damage most often and is the hardest to kill. You got your DPS, you got your AoE spells, you got your potions and you definitely got kiting.

Baldur's gate have spells that you use more than others, some that you even spam. It has a better magic system I agree, but nevertheless you use spells or buffs that the "AI" can't handle too well. You have your dungeons with trash mobs that you have to clear.

The game was extremely hard on insane when it was new, when all the info about the special items, tactics and so fourth were not out. You can now complete the game with basically any setup you like as you can with Dragon Age on all difficulties I bet, especially on easy and normal.

But keep in mind that DAO world is low magic setting compared to other RPG's in sense that you cannot buy magical items that are godlike at the random vendor nor will you find them so easy and so godlike. But you can still stand out with really good items if you take your time to find them compared to just going trough the main plot.

The mobs are also less diverse than Baldur's but again low magic world compared to a high one.

These are all minor details that are not that important. The absolute vital factor for a good RPG, is the story line, depth, dialogue, characters etc. etc. that you nicely said and this game has it. So it is a RPG, a good RPG. Rest is filler.

[marshalleck]

Pradeep Sanders wrote...


I don't want to be forced to tackle an encounter with a dragon by requiring specific characters in my party, positioning that party just so, taking advantage of one or two particular magic spells' effects that the AI doesn't handle well, running in circles to allow abilities to recharge, mashing on health or mana potions at exactly the right time to keep the fight going, and pausing constantly to try and guess when I can tell a character to do the next action without losing an action.

Then play on Easy.

/thread