47 réponses à ce sujet

[Malfustheone]

I was very put off by it in the beginning, wanted my mage to pump mag and con for bloody goodness :'(. Then I just gave up on magic to go the str con route so I could pick up some heavy armor and be super beefy. Then I find out that the awesome armor in the Black Emporium is Warrior restricted... I MEAN WTF!? I blew my top, now I dont know what to do : / good thing they gave us our "manuals of focus" right off the bat, and for only 2 gold =_=

[Scars Unseen]

I have a feeling that this will be one of the first things that gets changed when we can start modding the game.

[soteria]

Probably. And 90% of those mods will probably make the game easier by intent. I'd prefer to see a mod that still requires the same total stats--for example, instead of requiring 20/20 str/con, an item might require 30 str, but I'm not holding my breath.

[ezrafetch]

soteria wrote...

x-president! Glad to see some old hands around.

On topic: this system is somewhat similar to the Diablo stat system. Gear has one or two stat requirements, so if you want to wear the best gear, you need to take at least x/x dex/str. I think that system worked better in Diablo, though, because as a general rule items didn't have class restrictions. If you wanted to play an amazon in gothic plate or an assassin with casting gear, you could do that.

In DA2, it's highly unlikely that a warrior would ever want to put on rogue gear (or vice versa) because of the way the primary stats contribute to damage/attack. I wouldn't have done that in any event, but it's unfortunate for those that would want to.

The other huge difference that yields problems is that Diablo 2 has 99 levels, with 5 stat points per level.  You figure in +15 from the Lam Esen's Tome quest (all difficulties), and that's a lot of stat points.  You can get away with stuff like 156str shields (gogogo Spirit Monarchs) because there's enough stat points to be left with stuff like 1k life as a Sorceress.  DA2 doesn't have the flexibility granted by tons of points by tons of levels (as you may notice, I have played D2 a lot, and still play now, ha).  You only have 25 levels and three points per level.  It doesn't yield a whole lot of flexibility.  And to encumber the player with tons of stat requirements is no recipe for experimentation, and no room for anything outside of "cookie-cutter" builds.  It's rather unfortunate.

Modifié par ezrafetch, 11 mars 2011 - 03:52 .

[YMMV]

The thing I would have preferred (and maybe hope to see patched since I can't mod on the 360) is for armors to have an OR rather than an AND between the stat requirements. This I think would still meet the 'need' to have high prereqs for armor, but would allow a lot flexibility in character build and equipment used.

[Scars Unseen]

soteria wrote...

Probably. And 90% of those mods will probably make the game easier by intent. I'd prefer to see a mod that still requires the same total stats--for example, instead of requiring 20/20 str/con, an item might require 30 str, but I'm not holding my breath.

That would merely shift the issue from two stats to one.  The ideal would be to make such prereqs unnecesary.  
If that is too difficult to do without unbalancing the game, another solution would to be to mod in a variety of armor sets suitable for different builds.  The problem with that is that all you are doing is increasing the number of molds rather than eliminating them completely.  It would be an improvement though.

Perhaps a happy medium would be a convention of ratios.  For instance, make it a rule(within one person's work, anyway) that armor that requires Con would always have a higher armor rating than armor that requires an equivalent amount of a different stat.  You could make a big convoluted formula, if you wanted, so that you could predict what the armor rating and other bonuses a particular armor set would have based upon it's prereqs.

Actually this would work best with a custom armorer rather than having to make the armor and then place it somewhere in the world (probably in a random barrel if my experience with mods tells me true).  You could tell the armorer what bonuses you wanted it to have as well as what prereqs you were willing to accept (with a maximum of two stats to avoid people abusing the system)  and then the formula would calculate how high the requested bonuses would be as well as how much it would cost.  

You know, I may actually do this myself if the editor allows me to script something to that effect.

[Marbazoid]

I say they should get rid of stat requirements on armor all together, the different armor types would enhance the attributes that a class would need. For example, a mage could wear heavy armor, but that heavy armor would have stat improvements that would be more suited to a warrior.

Then just make your base attributes increase automatically each level (which stats increase and by how much would be class dependent).

That way you can still assign your attribute points wherever you like, while the devs have hard numbers on character stats when designing encounters.

Modifié par Marbazoid, 11 mars 2011 - 07:08 .

[bayes1881]

I agree on the post above me, but personally I dont mind.

[soteria]

Scars Unseen wrote...
That would merely shift the issue from two stats to one. The ideal would be to make such prereqs unnecesary.

I completely disagree. Items should have some sort of requirement, be it level or stat-based, to prevent players from equipping gear that's intended for higher-level characters. Additionally, it gives items a certain cost: a rogue could equip heavy or massive armor in Origins, but the strength requirement meant you had to think about the tradeoffs. I prefer gear choices to be more thoughtful; your suggestion just takes the problem in a different direction and makes the game easier.

[rumination888]

The problem isn't that equipment has secondary stat requirements... the problem is the curve starts too high.

The stat requirements suck during the first chapter, become more managable by the second, and all but disappear by the third. At level 23, I could fulfill my weapon and armor requirements and still have over 40+ stats left to distribute into anything else I wanted. You only need 31 of a secondary stat to wear champion armor.(+21 stats, or 7 levels worth of stats... you can probably fulfill those requirements from the numerous attribute potions and tomes you find in chapter 1 and 2).

If BioWare were to change anything, it would be the armor requirements for the first chapter. Needing 20+ points in con/cun/will to meet the requirements for a piece of armor when you're only level 8 is a bit much.

Modifié par rumination888, 11 mars 2011 - 01:04 .

[BattleRaptor]

Meh
This has pissed me off no end... infact its enough I dont plan on autobuying any further RPG from Bioware.. because they are no longer the type of game I enjoy.
They are no longer RPG's

They are RPG lite.

Half the fun is building your char and your party.. you cant do that in DA2.

Bioware in the intrest of ease and time limited your ability to grow your chars and your party till every players char of the same class will have almost the exact same stats.. and WILL have the same armor and weapons.

[Scars Unseen]

soteria wrote...

Scars Unseen wrote...
That would merely shift the issue from two stats to one. The ideal would be to make such prereqs unnecesary.

I completely disagree. Items should have some sort of requirement, be it level or stat-based, to prevent players from equipping gear that's intended for higher-level characters. Additionally, it gives items a certain cost: a rogue could equip heavy or massive armor in Origins, but the strength requirement meant you had to think about the tradeoffs. I prefer gear choices to be more thoughtful; your suggestion just takes the problem in a different direction and makes the game easier.

Thanks for reading my entire post and considering it as a whole.  Few people do that these days.  You proved to be a refreshing exception.  You quite astutely observed that since I devoted no more than a single sentence to the banishment of prereqs, I must have dismissed the idea as inherantly difficult to pull off well before I moved on to other, more obtainable solutions.  Bravo.

(in other words, you're right, but read on)

[soteria]

You misunderstand--I didn't quote the rest of your post because it didn't relate to the part I quoted and cared to respond to. I completely disagree with the idea that eliminating prereqs is ideal, and I was assuming the rest of your post didn't amount to a contradiction that you consider "no stat prereqs" ideal.

[Marbazoid]

soteria wrote...

Scars Unseen wrote...
That would merely shift the issue from two stats to one. The ideal would be to make such prereqs unnecesary.

I completely disagree. Items should have some sort of requirement, be it level or stat-based, to prevent players from equipping gear that's intended for higher-level characters. Additionally, it gives items a certain cost: a rogue could equip heavy or massive armor in Origins, but the strength requirement meant you had to think about the tradeoffs. I prefer gear choices to be more thoughtful; your suggestion just takes the problem in a different direction and makes the game easier.

Level requirements are appropriate, but I don't agree in slapping on attribute requirments. It just ecourages you to break your character for the glory of wearing that sweet platemail.

If say, heavy armor gave you bonuses to strength, a mage may consider equiping it to avoid his spells being interrupted, at the tradeoff of his spells being less potent (as robes would give magic bonuses). This would be a tactical choice, and not require any pre-planning or investment in an attribute, wich is more consistant with the games focus on tactics over strategy.

[Scars Unseen]

soteria wrote...

You misunderstand--I didn't quote the rest of your post because it didn't relate to the part I quoted and cared to respond to. I completely disagree with the idea that eliminating prereqs is ideal, and I was assuming the rest of your post didn't amount to a contradiction that you consider "no stat prereqs" ideal.

There is a difference between "ideal" and "feasable," which is why I only devoted a single sentence to the idea.  I say it is ideal because any restrictions placed upon armor causes a certain amount of character build pigeonholing.  A better solution (given that this is a fairly linear game anyway) is to exert greater control over loot distribution.  If a character never receives equipment that is too powerful for him, the issue goes away.  Not my favorite solution, but it wouldn't "force" players into specific stat combos either.

I personally prefer the last solution I presented in my earlier post.  It gives the freedom to build your character however you want while ensuring balanced variety in the armors themselves.  Having it be the function of an NPC smith eliminates the problems involved with adding the equipment into the world as loot (either you make it part of the random loot tables and players keep getting stuff they can't use due to increased variety or you saturate the game with extra loot and the player gets money too easily).  It grants a fair amount of freedom (someone who spreads his stats evenly across the board would be at a bit of  a disadvantage equipment wise) without opening things up for full scale abuse(although optimization will always play a role).

In any case, I don't see how the current system is any better.  Thus far, I haven't run into any class equipment that I couldn't use simply because I know that I need to focus on Strength and Constitution is I want to wear armor.  As long as you always raise both, you can wear whatever you find, so there may as well not be stat restrictions if nothing is actually restricted in practice.

[Cloaking_Thane]

If you take the blood mage spec they should shift the req to con instead of will tbh

[rabidhellhound]

YMMV wrote...

The thing I would have preferred (and maybe hope to see patched since I can't mod on the 360) is for armors to have an OR rather than an AND between the stat requirements. This I think would still meet the 'need' to have high prereqs for armor, but would allow a lot flexibility in character build and equipment used.

This might be an interesting way to fix the problem.  It would help out for the people who want to put their stats in 3 places, insead of 2.  The only down side to this is that the requirements to weapons are still so high.  Granted, you could (and most people probably will) concider your weapon stat as your Main stat and anything else is optional, which might fix the problem there, but when you have characters like Anders, who I just keep in Pancea for simplicity sake, magic isn't really all that important to me.  WIllpower is.  I think that your idea would be an extremely easy fix for the armor system, but they should also drop some weapon reqs. by about 5-7 points (especially for 1H swords).

Another way of doing it would be to give people a choice on their secondary stat by having armor (ex. mage armor) say,"Requires X magic and Y Willpower/Constitution."  This would allow those you wish to make a good Bloodmage still meet the requirements for armor no matter how you go with it.  For warriors it would be,"Requires X Strength and Y Constitution/Cunning."  And lastly for rogues,"Requires X Dexterity and Y Cunning/Constitution."  Or something around those lines.

Changes like these would allow players to choose between what stats they want to focus on, rather than feel forced to design a character the same way each time.

[Jon abcd]

Cloaking_Thane wrote...

If you take the blood mage spec they should shift the req to con instead of will tbh

I agree. That would help tide us all over until they release a toolset. Which they will upon pain of me and a few hundred others never buying their games again. Mirite?

[DirewolfX]

Maybe the armor should just require the secondary stat:
Warrior armor requires only constitution
Rogue armor requires only cunning
Mage armor requires only willpower

So now if you want to make an alternate build, like a cunning-based warrior or a blood mage, you just wear a different armor type. You do lose out on the class-specific armor sets, but that's a minor penalty.

For new players, it still guides them towards the 'optimal' build for their class, because they will want to get their primary stat to equip weapons and their secondary stat to equip the 'right' armor type, but then power gamers can play with builds that use another class's armor type.

[Luke Barrett]

In that case most people would be inclined to just wear Warrior armor as Constitution is the most universal attribute. At least, that would be my immediate inclination.

[Tomark]

Honestly, the two stats requirement is good, as it forces people to not be able to min-max things too much.

and, yes: this is GOOD.

If you play a blood mage, you shouldn't be able to wear the best armors in the game, and so on.

It doesn't 'limit' build choices. It just doesn't make your own personaly build the ultimate one.

This is GOOD, too.

[AgenTBC]

I think Tomark is right. It's a good thing when you have to make choices and tradeoffs.

[cgambleh]

AgenTBC wrote...

I think Tomark is right. It's a good thing when you have to make choices and tradeoffs.

I agree that tradeoffs and choices are good, but  every other spec gets a benefit from all the required stats, where as Blood Mages get none from Willpower. Maybe adding some kind of spell power conversion or something of the like in the blood mage tree for willpower would help this alot.

Modifié par cgambleh, 25 mars 2011 - 03:46 .