127 réponses à ce sujet

[Stakis]

NewYears1978 wrote...

The mere fact hat they scored DA:O the same as Risen..disqualifies the review..

absolutely, that thing is a pile of boredom and bugs, specialy love the PC doing the exact same body animation in every freaking conversation he has.

i didnt even knew pc gameplay existed b4 today, i trust pc gamer and pc zone , on both DAO has over 90%, cant care less about a review clearly biased on the fact of DOA not having the reviewers precious d&d ruleset.

[Paydirt]

4th Edition D&D limited options for spellcasters. Spellcasters for 3rd & 3.5 edition D&D just have WAY too many options, and non-spellcasters had basically zero options. 4th Edition D&D ADDS options for warriors and rogues, and SUBTRACTS options for spellcasters.

4th Edition D&D is much more balanced than any other edition of D&D, and it sounds like Bioware went the same direction with the combat system for DA:O

I support this message

[Chikkenstorm]

I finished NVN2 without understanding the DnD rules. I still don't get what 2d6 means (atleast, I think that was the dmg of my two-hander). Only thing I could figure out was higher number = more damage = better. That was basically the only rule I used in the game, and therefore I got a sword very early on, and never changed it (until I got the silver sword).



It was fun, not knowing what you're doing, but I prefer to get the best out of a system...

[Jacks-Up]

Chikkenstorm wrote...

Damn, I haven't got the new issue yet.
But the 'message board quests', they don't take up a huge load of the game, do they? If not, I could hardly call that a con. And quests like that are just realistic, I bet a farmer really would want to get rid of the wolves!

Still it's a fairly low score for this magazine, I think the Batman game got higher :S
EDIT: Yes, Batman had 90%. What a shame.

Batman Arkham Asylum is a very very good game arguably the best superhero game ever made. Maybe you should actually play games before bringing them down.

[Jacks-Up]

TallMike wrote...

Actually, Batman: Arkham Asylum was a surprisingly good game, and worthy of the score. I'm hoping that the side quests are still fun to play, and I think that the main quest and story will be enough to help me ignore the "MMORPG" quality of the side quests. Also, I think that it's a good thing they aren't using the D&D ruleset. It let's them push the envelope in terms of the combat system instead of being stuck following WotC rules and regulations. I guess we'll all have to wait and see how it turns out.

This actually concerns me, combat system can make or break a game or at least bring it down. Star Wars force unleashed is a good example of a game with a great story but suffered from from controls / combat system.

[Mordaedil]

Paydirt wrote...

4th Edition D&D limited options for spellcasters. Spellcasters for 3rd & 3.5 edition D&D just have WAY too many options, and non-spellcasters had basically zero options. 4th Edition D&D ADDS options for warriors and rogues, and SUBTRACTS options for spellcasters.
4th Edition D&D is much more balanced than any other edition of D&D, and it sounds like Bioware went the same direction with the combat system for DA:O
I support this message

I don't know. It does look like they took the middleground between 4th edition and 3.5th edition. Not so many "dumb" choices for mages, more options for melee characters and a really nice balance.

When I look at 4th edition, I love what they did for the warriors and hate what they did to the mages. I feel stunted when I read the rulebook and can't imagine wanting to play a mage in it anymore.

[Jacks-Up]

akcorr wrote...

SnipeyMcGee wrote...

Gotta say I think the DnD point reeks of bias. While the DnD system is in-depth, it's also sluggish for most PC Games unless you hide or change a decent portion of it's key features. I love Baldur's Gate series (my favorite of the Bioware games), but I did not love it's combat. It was alright, but in comparison to what most modern gamers expect a little convoluted and tedious. I like complexity, I just don't like the DnD system for combat.

I totally agree!

i 2ed that

[back pain]

I think this rather low review score was the reason metacritic was invented.

[Jacks-Up]

Ingrimm22 wrote...

Xetirox wrote...
If any aspect of the gameplay is lacking, then I don't consider that a good sign at all. Don't care how good a game's storyline is, and if a game is all about the story, then a developer has their priorities seriously messed up.

Couldn't agree more with this. Games are about gameplay not about story. If games have good stories and character developement, than fine but, let's face it, most of the time you will fight in Dragon Age, because it's the only way to progress in the story, hence if the battle-engine is lacking, the game is flawed no matter how good the story is. No story, regardless how good, will ever justify the tedium of really bad game mechanics, on the other hand, there are loads of really good games with REALLY bad stories. Just a very recent case in point: Borderlands.

I 2ed this as well.

[Jacks-Up]

Chikkenstorm wrote...

Just for the hell of it, I looked up some more scores from this magazine (also from other issues). This game is:
- As good as Need For Speed: Shift
- As good as Risen
- Worse than WoW: Wrath of the Lich King (88%)
- Worse than the Batman game (90%)
- Worse than Bioshock (93%, one of their best games ever I think)

So 87% is low. And just because we got ourselves a too old BG fan, who can't get over the modernisation of hardcore RPG's. I'm still thinking about sending them a letter, since this is ridiculous.

YES!!!! Go send them a letter because god forbid anyone anywhere says anything criticizing about a game you haven't even played yet is just flat out ridiculous.  HOW DARE THEY!!!!!

Modifié par Jacks-Up, 29 octobre 2009 - 07:50 .

[Jacks-Up]

Modifié par Jacks-Up, 29 octobre 2009 - 07:49 .

[BoomWav]

DungeonHamster wrote...

First, let me start out by respectfully disagreeing with Koralis about the usefulness of Cloudkill in Baldur's Gate. While usually not worth spending spell slots on, I made frequent use of wands of that spell. Send an invisible scout forward to find out where the baddies are, then back off so the enemy can't see you and lay down a layer of them.

Anyway, as near as I can figure, the primary difference between games with combat systems like DA seems likely to have and D&D is strategic rather than tactical.

In D&D, a has an wide variety of powers, but they can only use so many per DAY. If you've used up your slots, sorry, but you have to rest 8 hrs and meditate another 15 min before you can cast anything else. A fighter can only hit stuff, but he can hit stuff as often as he wants with no resource being drained for doing so. Given that, expecially at mid-to-high levels, a casters spells are going to at least more effective than swinging a sword if not positively necessary, managing resources over the course of the day becomes very important for casters.

Contrariwise, in a system like DA, everybody has to manage resources, but only tactically, never strategically. Fighters and mages both have "powers" which drain the mana/stamina pool and must be managed well DURING COMBAT. After combat, health restores itself, mana pools are refilled, and even the dead rise. You never have to worry about reserving powerful abilities for the next encounter, because everything'll be full up or nearly so by the next encounter.

Combat has never been a focus of mine in RPG's, but despite my love of D&D and intimate familiarity with the rules of at least one edition, if seems that the latter is better for keeping the pace of the story moving in a computer game.

Best analysis of the combat system of this thread. That's probably EXACTLY how Bioware's brainstorm turned up. It's clear that they wanted us to plan "Fight by Fight". They also wanted us to use ALL our skill to get through a fight. Do you remember how you'd save all your wizard spells until you actually found a worthy enemy? It wasn't that exciting. Bioware wanted to bring the excitement in fights. Anyway.. I personally love that they changed the fight system and added auto-rez and regen after fights. It'll really be great I can't wait.

[Sabriana]

SheffSteel wrote...

And don't get me started about character creation!

If there's one thing that puts off new players, it's having to make a bunch of fairly complex decisions before you know the firsst thing about the rules or the game world. To be fair, plenty of the old games had auto-creation or pre-generated characters, but I very much like the simplicity of just choosing Warrior/Mage/Rogue and specialising much further down the line.

I agree.
True, there are auto-creation/pre-generated char's, but I'm obnoxiously stubborn about wanting to create my own character. It's my PC, dammit, and I want to build her. I want to make my own decisions from the get-go.

[Jacks-Up]

BoomWav wrote...

DungeonHamster wrote...

First, let me start out by respectfully disagreeing with Koralis about the usefulness of Cloudkill in Baldur's Gate. While usually not worth spending spell slots on, I made frequent use of wands of that spell. Send an invisible scout forward to find out where the baddies are, then back off so the enemy can't see you and lay down a layer of them.

Anyway, as near as I can figure, the primary difference between games with combat systems like DA seems likely to have and D&D is strategic rather than tactical.

In D&D, a has an wide variety of powers, but they can only use so many per DAY. If you've used up your slots, sorry, but you have to rest 8 hrs and meditate another 15 min before you can cast anything else. A fighter can only hit stuff, but he can hit stuff as often as he wants with no resource being drained for doing so. Given that, expecially at mid-to-high levels, a casters spells are going to at least more effective than swinging a sword if not positively necessary, managing resources over the course of the day becomes very important for casters.

Contrariwise, in a system like DA, everybody has to manage resources, but only tactically, never strategically. Fighters and mages both have "powers" which drain the mana/stamina pool and must be managed well DURING COMBAT. After combat, health restores itself, mana pools are refilled, and even the dead rise. You never have to worry about reserving powerful abilities for the next encounter, because everything'll be full up or nearly so by the next encounter.

Combat has never been a focus of mine in RPG's, but despite my love of D&D and intimate familiarity with the rules of at least one edition, if seems that the latter is better for keeping the pace of the story moving in a computer game.

Best analysis of the combat system of this thread. That's probably EXACTLY how Bioware's brainstorm turned up. It's clear that they wanted us to plan "Fight by Fight". They also wanted us to use ALL our skill to get through a fight. Do you remember how you'd save all your wizard spells until you actually found a worthy enemy? It wasn't that exciting. Bioware wanted to bring the excitement in fights. Anyway.. I personally love that they changed the fight system and added auto-rez and regen after fights. It'll really be great I can't wait.

Well just because it's what they planed & wanted us to do, it doesn't mean it will work or it's what we want to do.

[Malanek]

I think not using the D&D ruleset is the only sensible move. That is not designed for a computer, terribly balanced and also carries all the IP problems for Bioware to move forward with. Haven't played the game yet so can't really comment on how good the ruleset and combat actually is.

If it is too simplistic then that could be a valid point, but saying they should use D&D makes me very suspicious of it.

[endaround]

DungeonHamster wrote...

Well, no , it doesn't. Given the success of similar systems in the past though, it seems probable that for most players that will be the most entertaining way to play. No reason for it to not work just because it seems that that's what the developers intended either.

As regards decent story versus gameplay, I would argue that there is a certain minimum threshold of gameplay quality which an RPG needs so that focus on the story is possible, but, being RPG's (that is, roleplaying games) a good story goes further to making one good than good gameplay. If the gameplay is too bad, you really might just as well go read a book or watch a movie. Of course, I would also argue that a game can simultaneously be a decent/good game and a mediocre/bad RPG (I tentatively put forward Oblivion as a fairly recent example of a game that tended in that direction).

Only change to the combat system of Dragon Age I would make (realizing that I stand in a position of relative ignorance, having not actually played the game yet) is the dead rising after each battle. It might make sense from a combat standpoint, but that it sure doesn't help immersion in the world. After all, what kind of world is it were anybody who gets killed comes right back to life so long as one of the other people they were traveling with is still alive when the last immediately aggressive opponent falls? That was a problem for me in NWN 2, as well.

I think this was done more for gameplay reasons than anything else.  If you have to go back and revive a party member most people will just quickload anyway so you really don't lose anything.
To me this still looks a lot like IWD level combat mixed with BG type story telling.

[foolish_sagacity]

*shrugs* so, a reviewer gave it a less than stellar score. It doesn't matter if everyone here ends up loving the game. I'd rather reviewers low ball it than pull the 10/10 bull carp I've been seeing lately. I mean, seriously, I've seen more 10/10's in the past two years than I saw in all my years growing up with games since I first played Donkey Kong around age 5.

GTA4 was NOT a 10/10.

Uncharted 2 got eight bazillion, trillion perfect scores, and I'm playing through it right now, and it's an impressive action game, but hardly a pinnacle of penultimate gaming (Maybe I'll eat my words with the ending?).

MGS4 got a lot of perfect scores, and I thought that game was a narrative mess. Fun, but flawed.

Super Smash Bros. Brawl got perfect scores too. It was fun, but perfect?

Same goes for fallout 3, tons of perfects, but it was not.

Whereas my all time favorite game, Planescape: Torment got as low as an 80, an EIGHTY!!!!!! from Eurogamer, which is not exactly a noname reviewer. I personally believe Planescape: Torment comes closer than any other game to being perfect, but even I admit it's combat was fundamentally flawed. There was no reason to be anything other than a mage, talking out your problems rather than fighting was 100% better than fighting and the combat wasn't close to perfectly tuned.

Reviews tend to be too whimsical, and the best advice is to read the words and find the things that lie in between the hype and the gripe. The statements about MMORPGish quests means that *gasp* we have some go here kill x monster quests. Just so long as it isn't the ONLY kind of quest, along with Fed Ex quests (glares at the Witcher). The statements about DnD combat only mean something if you expected DnD combat, I guess?

***EDIT*** In regards to Sir DungeonHamster's comment...who ever kept their game save where someone insta-gibbed in Baldur's Gate? When I saw Aerie get turned into chunks, I stopped and reloaded immediately. Someday maybe a hardcore RPG will come around where death matters and the game autosaves when someone dies, so you're stuck with that death. But that day is FAR away.

Modifié par foolish_sagacity, 29 octobre 2009 - 10:18 .

[Aurvan]

willtraverse wrote...

K3m0sabe wrote...

Take the mage's spells for example, the limited spell list is a big let down from the variety one could find with the D&D system.

64 spells doesn't seem so limited to me. The older D&D based games must have had quite a lot of magic.

Baldur's Gate 2 had more than 200 (arcane) spells for wizards alone. Clerics had their own spells (divine), which was probably a bit less than 200.

No game in the history of RPGs have come close to the spells in BG2. Here's an example of a spell:


-Limited Wish

Very interesting spell with many different uses.

Here's the repeatable 'Wish list':

I wish to summon a horde to overrun my enemies. (any Wisdom): Summons a horde of rabbits. You can't control them and this may look useless, but they have green circles, meaning they'll be targeted by enemies, and there are 20 of them. The ultimate fodder spell. Do not discount the bunnies.

Creatures: RABBITSU.

I wish for my spells to be restored! (Wisdom 15-): Lose all memorized spells.

I wish that magic would fail to affect me or my party. (Wisdom 11-): 'Mass Miscast Magic' on the party.

I wish for my entire party to be healed (Wisdom 10+): Heals the entire party for 20 hit points and cures poison, blindness, disease and deafness. Rather expensive, but better than having to rest.

I wish that none of my party would die of their wounds. (Wisdom 9-): 25 poison damage to each party member.

I wish to be protected from undead right now. (Wisdom 9-): Summons six hostile Vampires (but where's the protection?). Help yourself to a private level draining army by turning them with an Evil Cleric.

Creatures: VAMANC01, VAMVER01, VAMOLD01, VAMMAT01.

I wish to be protected from the undead. (Wisdom 10+): 'Mass Negative Plane Protection'. Great when fighting level draining undead (Vampires, Mists).

I wish to make my party invulnerable. (Wisdom 12+): 'Mass Minor Globe of Invulnerability'. Let loose those Skull Traps and Fireball/Lightning Bolt combos (from the Staff of the Magi).
The caster is still affected by Skull Trap (other party members are not).


I wish that spells I have cast would be restored, that I might cast them again! (Wisdom 16+): Rememorizes up to four spells evenly distributed over levels 1-4 for every party member. Very interesting.

And here's the one-time 'Wish list':

I wish to be more experienced. (Wisdom 3+): Summons a hostile Adamantite, Sand and Juggernaut Golem.

Creatures: GOLADA01 (Adamantite Golem), GOLSAN01 (Sand Golem), GOLJUG01 (Juggernaut Golem).

I wish to be anything I desire. (Wisdom 6+): Shapechange. Fun.

I wish for an adventure like none I've ever experienced before. (Wisdom 10+): Starts the "Gong" quest and gives you a scroll. Some nice treasures to be had on this quest.

Item: WISHSCRL (Note from Captain Dennis).

I wish to be prepared for anything. (Wisdom 10+): Chain Contingency. Very powerful if used right.

I wish to be rich. (Wisdom 10+): Gets you some gems (nothing that you wouldn't find lying in the streets).
Does not provide you the 2000 gold it promises.


I wish for a powerful magical item. (Wisdom 11+): Full Plate +2. Quite good.

Item: PLAT19 (Full Plate +2).

I wish that all my enemies will die. (Wisdom 11+): Wail of the Banshee. Barely passable for a level 7 spell...

I wish to see all as it really is. (Wisdom 12+): Glasses of Identification. Also available at Gaelan's at the start of chapter 2, but now you can Identify three more items every day.

Item: MISC3P (Glasses of Identification).

I wish for control over time. (Wisdom 14+): Time Stop. Always good.

One-time wishes are one-time for the entire party, not each individual wizard.

Range: Self (the Dao always appears somewhere near the caster).
Creature: WISH01.CRE (Dao).



-Wish (higher level)

Better than 'Limited Wish'. Has a lot more potential but you're not guaranteed any good options. The better your Wisdom, the more likely you get good options.

The bad options are:

Bring a 'Meteor Swarm' down upon the caster.

Caster loses all memorized spells.

Heal all enemies in the area.

'Improved Haste' on all enemies in the area. Lasts 26 rounds.

Level Drain two levels from each party member. Casts regular Energy Drain at every party member.

Party loses l0,000 gp.

'Slow' the entire party. Lasts 1 turn.

Summon an extra hostile monster into the area. Spawns a Dark Planetar.

Temporarily remove 15% of all party members' HPs. Lasts 1 turn.

Temporarily remove half of the caster's HP. Lasts 3 turns.

Temporarily reduce the Constitution of all party members to 3. Permanent until dispelled!

Temporarily reduce the Dexterity of all party members to 3. Lasts half a day.

Temporarily reduce the Intelligence of all party members to 3. Permanent until dispelled!

Temporarily reduce the Strength of all party members to 3. Lasts one whole day.

Temporarily reduce the Wisdom of all party members to 3. Lasts half a day.

The neutral options are:

'Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting' on everyone in the area, including the party. Cast at level 20, but not party friendly... Note that each creature is hit with the full area effect, so if some are standing in groups they'll get hit multiple times.

Protect your party from magic damage (or just protect the caster and send the rest off the map) and cast this a few times to pretty much kill everything on the map without ever meeting it.

For extra fun, produce some bunnies with Limited Wish's "I wish to summon a horde to overrun my enemies!" right next to your favorite baddy to make sure he gets to share in the twenty Horrid Wiltings cast on the bunnies.



Blow all people, including party members, away from the caster. A dragon's Wing Buffet, including the damage.

'Breach' on all enemies in the area. Affects everyone, not just enemies. Turns summons and neutral creatures hostile.

'Breach' on everyone in the area, including the party. Turns summons and neutral creatures hostile.

Everyone in the area, both party members and enemies, become intoxicated. A 3-point "intoxication bonus" for half a day, which means a -3 luck modifier and a +3 morale bonus. Turns summons and neutral creatures hostile! They must not like beer...

'Haste' everyone in the area, including enemies. Lasts 26 rounds.

Heal everyone, party members and enemies included.

Incur bad luck on everyone in the area, including party members. A -5 penalty for one turn.

'Magic Resistance' on everyone in the area, including enemies. Lasts 22 rounds.

'Miscast Magic' on everyone in the area, including party members. Lasts 1 turn.

Temporarily set Strength to 18 for everyone in the area, including enemies. Lasts half a day.

'Silence' on everyone in the area, including party members. Lasts 7 rounds.

The good options are:

All party members gain the temporary ability 'Greater Deathblow'. Lasts 2 rounds.

All party members gain the temporary ability 'Hardiness'. Lasts 3 seconds per level.

This version of Hardiness stacks with itself and regular Hardiness. You could make your warriors invulnerable to physical damage, or try to get lucky with two castings of this and make the whole party invulnerable.



Cast a double-length 'Time Stop' and 'Improved Alacrity' on the caster.

Certain Throne of Bhaal boss creatures that are immune to regular Time Stop are not immune to this Time Stop.



Create a random potion in the caster's inventory. The potion is chosen from Oil of Speed, Antidote and Potions of Regeneration, Extra Healing, Superior Healing, Genius, Clarity, Absorbtion, Cold Resistance, Insulation, and Insight.

Create a random wand in caster's inventory. The wand is chosen from Wands of Fear, Magic Missiles, Paralyzation, Fire, Frost, Lightning, Spell Striking and Cursing.

'Improved Haste' on all party members. Lasts 26 rounds.

Make it as if the entire party has just rested a full night and re-memorized all their spells. Insane, the most powerful effect of any spell. The ultimate cure, available in the midst of battle. You could go without rest forever if you can cast enough Wishes. See the Wish Endless Spells Strategy for more details.

Raise all party members' characteristics to 25 tor 4 rounds.

'Restoration' on all party members. Greater Restoration, that is!

'Resurrection' on all dead party members.

[On_Slaught]

BG2 was too good.

[b09boy]

Gonna have to respectfully disagree with the DnD comment. I liked it well enough back in the BG days, but we've moved beyond that. I rather like the system in place. I like being able to define my class well beyond presets. I like that my non spellcasters have something to do during combat beyond simply attacking an enemy. I like not having to wade through drivel to find a good spell to cast. I can understand the love for some of the old DnD stuff, but I am certainly not one to share it. DnD may have been more complex, but I'd say it was needlessly so.

[frano1]

first....STOP trusting reviews..review is totaly subjective and another most important thing is that review is all about bribe...they are grading games depending how much money or counterfavor game developers give to them....or they give low score becouse they cant get over some things that are totally non important...i mean 87%isnt a low score but tbh...its is impossible that realistic objective review of this game is below 92% or smth....so basicly just try the game for yourself and dont truast reviews becouse thats alot of mumbojumbo:)

[Malanek]

Aurvan wrote...

Baldur's Gate 2 had more than 200 (arcane) spells for wizards alone. Clerics had their own spells (divine), which was probably a bit less than 200.

BG2 had good spells. I loved the ones like Contingency, Minute Meteors, Tensers Transformation etc But let's face it, out of all those spells you list, only about 30 (40 at most) of them were useful. Plus scaling was very limited which meant a lot of them became obsolete quickly. DA:O has more than 64 spells and that is enough IMO. I still need to actually play to say that the system is good but the number of spells doesn't worry me in the slightest.

[frano1]

i mean...sidequests are great in game and combat is superb....graphics are not on the top of the world(its great but not the best) but it cant be becouse game develops a long time so they cant change graphics half way through...and beseides rpgs are about story and atmosphere not graphics:)